What do you think about lying?

aprovencher21 · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:94ad92d1-adf3-4abd-9fa9-ec12df1bb660">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: What do you think about lying? : So... my son at an early age doesn't like something someone got him for his birthday, he's suppose to what? Like Duds says, tell them out right what a monstrosity it is, or be nice say thank you and move on. This to me is about manners. We all do it as a civil society. As for cheating the system by lying no.
Posted by kd.joseph[/QUOTE]

No I do find lying to say thank you for a gift and that you like it is an acceptable lie. I like manners and being polite have evolved for a reason and while possibly a grey area I'd rather go to the side of being polite and not hurting people.

aprovencher21 · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:3618663b-8efb-4992-8d18-604b860ebf00">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]I am sure you addressed it in your Ethics class, but Kant has an interesting perspective on lying (that it is ALWAYS wrong to lie because it contradicts human dignity and robs others of the ability to make choices freely). Contrasted with John Stuart Mill, whose utilitarianism could be used to argue that lying is morally acceptable when it is for the greater good of society once the harm and the benefits are weighed. I am a believer in weighing the harm and the benefit. In your paper, if you are arguing that lying is necessary, you can use the harm-benefit scale to create the "line" that you mentioned was hard to find. Teaching children that type of scale is good in many situations - not just when trying to teach them when it's okay to lie or not to lie. They will have to make those judgment calls for the rest of their lives. It's also important to teach children to distinguish between lying for the benefit of themselves at the expense of others and lying for the benefit of others/society, when maybe their urge is to tell the truth or to say something harmful. Just my two cents. Sounds like an interesting topic on which to write. I miss academia :(
Posted by mattsdorothy[/QUOTE]

I love the different theories. I've addressed them in previous ethics courses but we haven't gotten to them yet since we've only had an online discussion board post and first day of class is Tuesday. I LOVE having homework due the first day of class (and that is sarcasm and a lie).

TurtlesAllTheWayDown · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:904da988-238b-4286-b716-a84e3d451e27">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: What do you think about lying? : Oh I agree =) It was just an example of things lied about in some of these statistics/polls. Usually, and I say this based off the evidence provided, people are much more willing to lie when their children are involved. I understand the emotional response behind it and I cannot say I may not do it (since I'm not a parent I really don't know how I'd react, KWIM?). Its just interesting from an academic and personal standpoint what people find acceptable to lie about vs. wrong. I agree where you are harming society, a business, or an individual the lie is probably unethical. I do see the shades of grey and thats a harder issue to address.
Posted by aprovencher21[/QUOTE]

Oh, I agree. And many people are 1) much more willing to support their child in any way and 2) NOT support a nameless, faceless organization or business, assuming that their one little lie won't hurt. But if everyone does it...

aprovencher21 · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:0cf12c4d-17df-4bba-abf8-69ec8c51c706">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: What do you think about lying? : Oh, I agree. And many people are 1) much more willing to support their child in any way and 2) NOT support a nameless, faceless organization or business, assuming that their one little lie won't hurt. But if everyone does it...
Posted by msmerymac[/QUOTE]

Exactly and from a business person standpoint I really don't like those likes but I completely understand how and why they happen.

Another big one is lying to get health or life insurance. I hate insurance fraud but I completely understand why people do lie about things.

mattsdorothy · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:6e2437ee-ac67-4534-9f55-413bc21bb5c0">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: What do you think about lying? : I love the different theories. I've addressed them in previous ethics courses but we haven't gotten to them yet since we've only had an online discussion board post and first day of class is Tuesday. I LOVE having homework due the first day of class (and that is sarcasm and a lie).
Posted by aprovencher21[/QUOTE]

Such a typical law school move to have an assignment the first day of class. I DON'T miss that part of academia! I took a few ethics classes and took a stand that was very different than my profs many times - but, I found that if you can just explain it well and stick to your guns, they'll respect you for it. (Like when I wrote a paper about being able to make human organs a commodity due to the shortage... not the most popular opinion, but still got an A. haha)

aprovencher21 · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:38cc28a1-1982-4df4-b7b8-b259b4383c87">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: What do you think about lying? : Such a typical law school move to have an assignment the first day of class. I DON'T miss that part of academia! I took a few ethics classes and took a stand that was very different than my profs many times - but, I found that if you can just explain it well and stick to your guns, they'll respect you for it. (Like when I wrote a paper about being able to make human organs a commodity due to the shortage... not the most popular opinion, but still got an A. haha)
Posted by mattsdorothy[/QUOTE]

Ha I wrote a very similar paper and took that same position in my Ethical Heathcare class. I totally do believe that people should be able to sell their organs. I'm usually in the minority in classes like that though with that opinion.

This class is basic Professional Responsibility but in the fall I'm taking Ethics in Biogenetics and Biologics. Very excited.

crfische · May 2011

I think there is a difference between teaching manners and being polite and lying.

OMG, THANK YOU FOR THE GIFT! <--- polite response.

OMG, IM GONNA WEAR THIS BUNNY SUIT EVERY DAY AND IT'S MY FAVORITE <---- lie, and not necessary.

I try to only lie in the case of a surprise party, otherwise, I don't know man. I'm not down with lying.

There is a way to be honest and not be cold hearted and rude and hurt someone's feelings.

kd.joseph · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:1bd7d0e7-64bc-4bc4-a9bf-197941d03aaf">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: What do you think about lying? : No I do find lying to say thank you for a gift and that you like it is an acceptable lie. I like manners and being polite have evolved for a reason and while possibly a grey area I'd rather go to the side of being polite and not hurting people.
Posted by aprovencher21[/QUOTE]

I agree, this is what I thought you were saying. I guess I was questioning the professor.

Hell there have been times in this life I have "lied" to DH about something he has bought me. Eventually I have to tell him the truth, but I dont want to hurt his feelings when he tries so hard.

And I have been known to go back if I havent been charged for something.

Blueyed228 · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:d3b197e8-da20-4003-b086-7e5a1adef6dc">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]I think there is a difference between teaching manners and being polite and lying. OMG, THANK YOU FOR THE GIFT! <--- polite response. OMG, IM GONNA WEAR THIS BUNNY SUIT EVERY DAY AND IT'S MY FAVORITE <---- lie, and not necessary. I try to only lie in the case of a surprise party, otherwise, I don't know man. I'm not down with lying. There is a way to be honest and not be cold hearted and rude and hurt someone's feelings.
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

This is exactly what I was trying to say.

ricksang · May 2011

It isn't necessary but I do it often to not hurt feelings or to get out of something lol

And Hi Aprove and Blue just saw yall's FB

trying to stay off FB for a while.

aprovencher21 · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:d3b197e8-da20-4003-b086-7e5a1adef6dc">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]I think there is a difference between teaching manners and being polite and lying. OMG, THANK YOU FOR THE GIFT! <--- polite response. OMG, IM GONNA WEAR THIS BUNNY SUIT EVERY DAY AND IT'S MY FAVORITE <---- lie, and not necessary. I try to only lie in the case of a surprise party, otherwise, I don't know man. I'm not down with lying. There is a way to be honest and not be cold hearted and rude and hurt someone's feelings.
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

Are you thinking of the pink bunny outfit in a Christmas Story? Cause that's what I'm thinking of.

I agree there are ways to be polite and not go overboard with the lying but I think thats a difficult nuance to teach children especially at a young age.

crfische · May 2011

See, honesty doesn't mean SAYING EVERY FUCKING THOUGHT IN YOUR HEAD.

It's making sure that what you DO say is honest.

I think a lot of things that I don't say. It's not necessary and doesn't help anyone.

But if something comes out of my mouth, I try to make it honest. I mean, I've lied before obviously. I've gotten IN TROUBLE before for lying.

It's just not worth it.

aprovencher21 · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:ceb0daff-f998-4aa1-be3c-ac45b3039a40">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: What do you think about lying? : I agree, this is what I thought you were saying. I guess I was questioning the professor. Hell there have been times in this life I have "lied" to DH about something he has bought me. Eventually I have to tell him the truth, but I dont want to hurt his feelings when he tries so hard. And I have been known to go back if I havent been charged for something.
Posted by kd.joseph[/QUOTE]

My professor, at least in my opinion. is taking the never lying route simply because its a Professional Responsibility class and therefore any lies should be viewed as wrong in light of the class/profession. Law school is crazy insane about any lies or inconsistencies anywhere or ever. I think its good that they are that way but I don't always view the world as clearcut black and white.

crfische · May 2011

So, are you saying that it's EASIER to teach a child to lie than it is to teach them to be honest?

Because that's just not right.

Just because something is easier, doesn't make it ok.

aprovencher21 · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:bba855c1-2979-46e5-b3e0-92fb1aeda2b2">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]It isn't necessary but I do it often to not hurt feelings or to get out of something lol And Hi Aprove and Blue just saw yall's FB <3 trying to stay off FB for a while.
Posted by ricksang[/QUOTE]

Hi dear =) I understand. Just was checking in on you....cause I love ya.

kd.joseph · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:41d99684-dc70-4ae8-a09a-b9496ba3a94d">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]See, honesty doesn't mean SAYING EVERY FUCKING THOUGHT IN YOUR HEAD. It's making sure that what you DO say is honest. I think a lot of things that I don't say. It's not necessary and doesn't help anyone. But if something comes out of my mouth, I try to make it honest. I mean, I've lied before obviously. I've gotten IN TROUBLE before for lying. It's just not worth it.
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

I can tell you the only time I was whipped as a child was for lying to my mother. It wasnt because I pushed the next door neighbor off the porch, it was because I lied to my mother. She made me stand in the corner and pray for forgiveness.

aprovencher21 · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:8fe14ad7-44ad-41e4-be97-db3325e48198">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]So, are you saying that it's EASIER to teach a child to lie than it is to teach them to be honest? Because that's just not right. Just because something is easier, doesn't make it ok.
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

No thats not what I meant I think its harder to teach them the proper degree of honesty. I think it should be taught but I think it is more difficult and why so many parents don't fully address the issue of lying.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown · May 2011

Yeah, I guess the question is whether lying is wrong because it's just morally wrong TO lie or if the consequences of lying are usually bad, and therefore it's wrong to lie as a general rule, but not in all cases. I can sort of see both sides.

mattsdorothy · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:1a00d27c-823c-4150-a205-c1e7c06384f6">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: What do you think about lying? : Ha I wrote a very similar paper and took that same position in my Ethical Heathcare class. I totally do believe that people should be able to sell their organs. I'm usually in the minority in classes like that though with that opinion. This class is basic Professional Responsibility but in the fall I'm taking Ethics in Biogenetics and Biologics. Very excited.
Posted by aprovencher21[/QUOTE]

Yep, I wrote that paper in my Bioethics class. Those are really the only classes I miss from undergrad and law school. I miss the crim law classes, too I suppose, since I don't get to do that kind of work now, but mostly just the philosophical classes. Your fall class sounds amazing! Definitely missing being in school and sort of despising having to be in the real world these days!
Wow, your PR class is getting deep already! Ours was... not too tough. Which explains why it took me so long to study for my state's professional responsibility exam...
I think that in the context of PR, there aren't a lot of things that are okay for an attorney to lie about. Withhold, yes, outright lie, not so much.

crfische · May 2011

I mean, getting down to the nitty gritty, you have to define what is a lie. Is a lie omission of the truth or knowledge you may have? Is lying saying something that is completely untrue? What is it?

Because I think people sometimes use "IM JUST AN HONEST PERSON" as an excuse to be a huge douchecanoe, which isn't ok. And being an honest person and lying are two different things in a way.

I think lying is typically the easy way out. That's why people do it. What's the motivation to lie? To save YOU some trouble. To give YOU the day off. To make YOUR child better. To save YOU money. It's a very selfish act in an of itself, ya know? Why teach that to your children? If you lie things may be easier?

kd.joseph · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:27dca718-1e46-4793-b879-4e2b7f1b2b16">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]Yeah, I guess the question is whether lying is wrong because it's just morally wrong TO lie or if the consequences of lying are usually bad, and therefore it's wrong to lie as a general rule, but not in all cases. I can sort of see both sides.
Posted by msmerymac[/QUOTE]

This is not a black and white issue.

When children are small they don't know it's not nice to just blurt out what comes into their little heads, where "Out of the mouths of Babes" comes from. They are brutally honest, I think they need to know how to refrain from saying every.little.thing.

crfische · May 2011

Right KD. Which to me comes down to teaching manners.

Kids are going to say some mean, stupid things. Not out of malice, but just because they are typically honest beings. And that's ok. But teaching them to LIE and teaching them MANNERS are two very different things.

kd.joseph · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:c09d5f8c-f297-4294-b85d-77dc8143c59d">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]Right KD. Which to me comes down to teaching manners. Kids are going to say some mean, stupid things. Not out of malice, but just because they are typically honest beings. And that's ok. But teaching them to LIE and teaching them MANNERS are two very different things.
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

I guess it came down to scenarios that were brought up earlier. What do you teach them to say when someone gives them a gift they hate. What do they say? Thanks so much for the present! Do they lie by omission, or fess up?

TurtlesAllTheWayDown · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:ac2a962e-4db5-4a02-8532-a3f8f85db929">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]I mean, getting down to the nitty gritty, you have to define what is a lie. Is a lie omission of the truth or knowledge you may have? Is lying saying something that is completely untrue? What is it? Because I think people sometimes use "IM JUST AN HONEST PERSON" as an excuse to be a huge douchecanoe, which isn't ok. And being an honest person and lying are two different things in a way. I think lying is typically the easy way out. That's why people do it. What's the motivation to lie? To save YOU some trouble. To give YOU the day off. To make YOUR child better. To save YOU money. It's a very selfish act in an of itself, ya know? Why teach that to your children? If you lie things may be easier?
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

Haha, I agree with that. I definitely know people who say, "I just HAVE to be honest with you" as an excuse to, like, tell you they think you have a huge personality flaw, or should really lay off the doritos or something.

aprovencher21 · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:ac2a962e-4db5-4a02-8532-a3f8f85db929">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]I mean, getting down to the nitty gritty, you have to define what is a lie. Is a lie omission of the truth or knowledge you may have? Is lying saying something that is completely untrue? What is it? Because I think people sometimes use "IM JUST AN HONEST PERSON" as an excuse to be a huge douchecanoe, which isn't ok. And being an honest person and lying are two different things in a way. I think lying is typically the easy way out. That's why people do it. What's the motivation to lie? To save YOU some trouble. To give YOU the day off. To make YOUR child better. To save YOU money. It's a very selfish act in an of itself, ya know? Why teach that to your children? If you lie things may be easier?
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

Oh oops. Lying in some cases (at least in this class) can be considered omitting information. I think we are getting to that type of definition later this week.

I agree that plenty of people use honesty as a way to be a jerk. There are ways in most circumstances to be honest without being cold hearted and over the top.

I guess I believe lying or omitting some of the truth is necessary for society and that not everyone is going to be good at understanding the degree of honesty that is accepted as polite.

crfische · May 2011

Truthfully, kids are going to have those moments. I mean you can pre-teach to it and hope it doesn't, but like I said. At the heart of it, kids are honest beings. And they will embarrass their parents. IT WILL HAPPEN.

You teach them to appreciate that they thought of you at all, and maybe next time when they get a gift, they say thank you for the gift! And they mean it. Because they realize that someone took the time to think of them. Is it something they are going to learn right away? No. But I guess it depends what kind of things you want to teach your child. They don't have to lie and say OMG THIS IS SO AWESOME.

But you can start to begin to teach them to appreciate thoughts and things when no one HAD to get them anything at all.

aprovencher21 · May 2011

Mery your sig photo is distracting. I want the beer in the glass please. What kind was it?

I believe it was you I once had a long ago conversation with about scotch right?? I was just given a bottle of Isle of Sky....amazing.

crfische · May 2011

Sorry to keep going, and I'm quite certain I've read the whole thread, but give me an example of an absolutely necessary lie. Because admittedly, I'm just looking at my own world view right now and not the bigger picture, so I'm curious about the lies that are ABSOLUTELY necessary to make the world keep going. I'm sure there are some.

kd.joseph · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:7c785536-a725-40f1-8770-04fc33772c34">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]Truthfully, kids are going to have those moments. I mean you can pre-teach to it and hope it doesn't, but like I said. At the heart of it, kids are honest beings. And they will embarrass their parents. IT WILL HAPPEN. You teach them to appreciate that they thought of you at all, and maybe next time when they get a gift, they say thank you for the gift! And they mean it. Because they realize that someone took the time to think of them. Is it something they are going to learn right away? No. But I guess it depends what kind of things you want to teach your child. They don't have to lie and say OMG THIS IS SO AWESOME. But you can start to begin to teach them to appreciate thoughts and things when no one HAD to get them anything at all.
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

This makes a lot of sense. But then again you lied about the Bunny suit I got you, so how can I believe you! ;)

crfische · May 2011

Dude, you have NO IDEA how much I love that bunny suit. It's great times for the cats. They love it, too.

What do you think about lying?

Re: What do you think about lying?

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