WWYD--WR & $$

lilgina64 · December 2009

oh and i just thought of this... since you guys can't be discovered by coworkers.. maybe he's afraid that the joint account will somehow be discovered and it'll blow your cover? I might be stretching this one a little bit. I know Mr lil and I were really paranoid about making sure we had each other's name on everything for immigration, so maybe Rich is the exact opposite?

vallyhoo · December 2009

Just a word of caution, as someone who also does well with written words rather than verbal confrontation... I would write everything down but still speak to Rich in person about it. In my experience, people who receive long-winded emails will tune-out and just be annoyed with the fact that there is an email detailing ALL of your issues at once. I'd start, as Bec said, with the conversation and lead into things. If he perceives your e-mail to be forboding and lecture-some... then your concerns won't be heard.

RaiKai · December 2009

You definitely need to sit down and discuss how you are going to manage money both before and after the wedding. If this is his tendencies now, they aren't going to change after the wedding. It is also a concern you have not had a "financial talk", or regular talks, about how you are going to manage and approach money as a couple. There is a reason money is a major source of stress between couples...and a lot of it has to do with the communication around money, such as dishonesty as well as power or control issues. .

This was money for both of you, and it is unreasonable for him to "withhold" while you incur debt/deplete savings for the wedding without knowing what the plan is for that money. FI and I had a similar situation where his mother provided some money for us as a gift. FI immediately suggested we use it for the wedding and put it in a joint account from which we could pay our wedding expenses.

Our approach to finances is that we are in this together. Our individual financial situations fluctuate and we have different levels of debt, savings or incomes, however we regularly discuss it to see where we are at and make decisions that are to the benefit of us as a "team". You MUST be able to talk about money together, and in this case specifically find out what his intent is with the wedding, and the money he has received for the wedding, and so forth.

beatlesgirl25 · December 2009

Ditto bec and dani's conversation starter tips for this incredibly necessary conversation. Also, is there any way that his concerns about your scar are him feeling like he's acting on your behalf and your concerns (like maybe YOU would regret it later)? Because if not, he needs to be kicked in the balls.

BecW2be · December 2009

Write it down, but DO NOT email it. Sit down and talk through each point with him. He'll feel bombarded with things that piss you off if it's sent in an email. Discuss each point completely before moving on to the next. It's the best way to work through each issue without overlapping feelings and frustrations for both of you.

brookelynpaisley · December 2009

I'll be the first to admit, money is hard to talk about. And neither of us have parents who are great for advice in this - after 30 years of marriage, my parents have only one joint savings account, but it's essentially my mom's saving for our college. DH's parents handle money so poorly, they just file bankruptcy.

We also have only joint savings, so we pay each other back and forth for things. It's not easy for my H to talk about money, especially since I make significantly more. It takes patience on my part because I see everything in black and white. BUT, it's important that you can have conversations and have a game plan. We knew what we intended to do with all money received for the wedding. We know what we will do with our tax return. We know how much each of us is contributing to our personal and joint savings and what those accounts are intended for. So you don't have to physically share all your money to be on the same page.

Not being able to come together to have a plan for your money is a huge red flag, and you shouldn't feel like a child needing to ask for money for a wedding that's for the two of you, especially since there is money out there that is supposed to be for you. I'd be seriously considering the health and trust in your relationship when it comes to money.

Pirata13 · December 2009

I haven't been a fan of Rich since the days of the creepy sister days, so I'm not going to sugar coat things. The sister is a red flag, the money is a red flag, and this whole interfering in your health and doctors issue is a red flag. I missed the surgery/scar post (if there was one) but I'll tell you. that pisses me off. There is way more to all of this than him just "not wanting scars" or not wanting to share money because it's from his parents, and I think you know that. This is big, Rach, BIG. None of this is going to get any better. I really hope you will consider not just talking to him about these issues (which I think will go in one ear and out the other) but PLEASE go back to your counselor.

Go read your old posts, Rach, the ones about the sister if they are still out there. Read them and see what you were seeing and thinking back then. And do yourself a favor, make sure you always have your own account, and that only you can access it. I'll keep you in my prayers, for real.

RaiKai · December 2009

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_wwyd-wr?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:4219d3e4-0740-491b-972c-68004c2eaf7cPost:448dac7b-6548-4f3f-8675-5ebcb4ccdfbd">Re: WWYD--WR & $$</a>:
[QUOTE]Write it down, but DO NOT email it. Sit down and talk through each point with him. He'll feel bombarded with things that piss you off if it's sent in an email. Discuss each point completely before moving on to the next. It's the best way to work through each issue without overlapping feelings and frustrations for both of you.
Posted by BecW2be[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

I understand needing to write things down to clarify things for yourself, however then you do need to actually talk about it.

You really do need to be able to have a actual conversation about it. This should be about discussing, resolving and learning more about one another - not just getting all your points across in bullet point or what have you. Again, if you can't actually TALK about these things face to face, that is a big, big concern.

I would suggest you two should seriously consider pre-marital counselling to learn how to discuss these issues respectfully and honestly. There is probably more than money you aren't able to talk about.

RachNRich · December 2009

I understand not wanting it emailed---but that is more of an "us" move. I get very emotional, very quickly, lately. We get about two minutes into a converation, and I start crying. I am just a big ball of tears waiting to come out (I blame my health--it's put me very on edge).

I wish a converstation would work--but I have a feeling it would get nowhere, fast. I could write it down and read it to him--but he would never let me get through without trying to make excuses for everything I say.

I'll hold off on sending it--and hopefully come up with something easier in the meantime.

BecW2be · December 2009

I don't think any of us need to add that not being able to communicate without tears or interruption/excuses is the biggest red flag of all.

beatlesgirl25 · December 2009

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_wwyd-wr?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:4219d3e4-0740-491b-972c-68004c2eaf7cPost:a8942e7e-9e5f-4c68-a412-7be86fb8334d">Re: WWYD--WR & $$</a>:
[QUOTE]I understand not wanting it emailed---but that is more of an "us" move. I get very emotional, very quickly, lately. We get about two minutes into a converation, and I start crying. I am just a big ball of tears waiting to come out (I blame my health--it's put me very on edge). I wish a converstation would work--but I have a feeling it would get nowhere, fast. I could write it down and read it to him--but he would never let me get through without trying to make excuses for everything I say. I'll hold off on sending it--and hopefully come up with something easier in the meantime.
Posted by RachNRich[/QUOTE]

Aw rach, this makes it sound like there's no way out. But there has to be. This is probably a long shot if Rich is this secretive even with you, but is there a trusted friend or family member on his side that you could enlist to mediate for you two? He also might not realize how contained he is making your money situation, and sometimes only people who know you can give you that perspective with their reactions or feedback. Obviously, that would be beyond mediating at that point, but it still might help. Especially if your recent conversations are marked with tears, etc. (and rightfully so on your part), it might be hard for Rich to really understand which issues are serious, like this one.

EDIT: Re: tears, like Bec said, he should be able to tolerate the tears, but your points might get lost in translation is what I meant to say. Which he needs to realize in some other way.

[Deleted User] · December 2009

Why would the conversation not work? Is it because of the crying? If so, then I would just explain before you being that you get very emotional and will most likely cry. And that he still needs to hear you out because this is important.

If it's not the crying, then I'm concerned. While it's definitely an uncomfortable conversation to have, it's necessary and will cause major problems if not dealt with now.

Brie2010 · December 2009

I also melt down when I confront people about emotional stuff. I would at least print the e-mail and give it to him in person, so you get everything out there on the table, but there's still the in-person element of it.

RachNRich · December 2009

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_wwyd-wr?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:4219d3e4-0740-491b-972c-68004c2eaf7cPost:a98e4902-c56c-4bd2-b1de-e7af10947a76">Re: WWYD--WR & $$</a>:
[QUOTE]I haven't been a fan of Rich since the days of the creepy sister days, so I'm not going to sugar coat things. The sister is a red flag, the money is a red flag, and this whole interfering in your health and doctors issue is a red flag. I missed the surgery/scar post (if there was one) but I'll tell you. that pisses me off. There is way more to all of this than him just "not wanting scars" or not wanting to share money because it's from his parents, and I think you know that. This is big, Rach, BIG. None of this is going to get any better. I really hope you will consider not just talking to him about these issues (which I think will go in one ear and out the other) but PLEASE go back to your counselor. Go read your old posts, Rach, the ones about the sister if they are still out there. Read them and see what you were seeing and thinking back then. And do yourself a favor, make sure you always have your own account, and that only you can access it. I'll keep you in my prayers, for real.
Posted by Pirata13[/QUOTE]

I cannot forget this issues with his sister. They are still there. It scares the hell out of me when I think about all these things--and I get to a point where I don't know what to do. I love him more than anything---but sometimes I feel like we are worlds apart.

And then I want to cry <img src="http://cdn.cl9.vanillaforums.com/downloaded/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-cry.gif" border="0" alt="Cry" title="Cry" />

bbyckes · December 2009

I think that if you truly felt supported by Rich during this process, your reaction may not be as emotionally charged. It sounds as if you feel alone during this process and misunderstood and neglected by him. You're angry at him, but can't express your anger, because he'll make excuses about his behavior, maybe even turn it around on you and then, what's the point anyway.

To add on to the feelings of helplessness (battling a disease), he tacks on the insult of not making you an equal partner in the finances. I'll be honest, I don't care so much about a joint account (we have one and we don't even use it), but it's more about making you feel like you're asking for his money instead of accessing your money.

You need to talk to him. With voices. Not email. It isn't going to get any easier as time progresses. I wish you luck with this, Rach.

bbyckes · December 2009

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_wwyd-wr?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:4219d3e4-0740-491b-972c-68004c2eaf7cPost:482063c2-b1fc-45e7-8dca-654ea85a5e0b">Re: WWYD--WR & $$</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: WWYD--WR & $$ : I cannot forget this issues with his sister. They are still there. It scares the hell out of me when I think about all these things--and I get to a point where I don't know what to do. I love him more than anything---but sometimes I feel like we are worlds apart. And then I want to cry
Posted by RachNRich[/QUOTE]

You may be crying because of what you already know that you don't want to confront.

If he's not good for you. He isn't good for you. Perhaps you need to do what's good for Rach (whatever that is), instead of what makes Rich's life easier.

SwedishChick2011 · December 2009

Whoever suggested premarital counseling has a good point. In fact, I think you should insist on it (and if you've already had it, then you need to go back).

RachNRich · December 2009

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_wwyd-wr?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:4219d3e4-0740-491b-972c-68004c2eaf7cPost:9f6ea6d8-f88e-448a-a7c9-f0afdda4dc43">Re: WWYD--WR & $$</a>:
[QUOTE]Why would the conversation not work? Is it because of the crying? If so, then I would just explain before you being that you get very emotional and will most likely cry. And that he still needs to hear you out because this is important. If it's not the crying, then I'm concerned. While it's definitely an uncomfortable conversation to have, it's necessary and will cause major problems if not dealt with now.
Posted by cew515[/QUOTE]

Oh it's definately the crying aspect. Not because he isn't willing to talk, but I've been crying so much lately that this is the last thing I want to cry about.

He's just so smart (and I mean this is a good way) that he always is able to explain everything. And I end up feeling like an idiot in the end. I always do---but thats probably more on me than anyone else.

I sent a short email saying I was upset after the discussion this morning, and I wanted to have a serious talk about all these things sooner rather than later. Hopefully he gets the hint. And I'll pinch myself to stop from crying.

beatlesgirl25 · December 2009

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_wwyd-wr?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:4219d3e4-0740-491b-972c-68004c2eaf7cPost:7b95a4d1-8fb2-4fc9-a068-e650cf0ac8d8">Re: WWYD--WR & $$</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: WWYD--WR & $$ : You may be crying because of what you already know that you don't want to confront. If he's not good for you. He isn't good for you. Perhaps you need to do what's good for Rach (whatever that is), instead of what makes Rich's life easier. 
Posted by bbyckes[/QUOTE]

Sadly, these things should not be mutually exclusive. But I totally agree.

SwedishChick2011 · December 2009

I missed what happened with the sister. CN's?

danieliza1127 · December 2009

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_wwyd-wr?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:4219d3e4-0740-491b-972c-68004c2eaf7cPost:7b95a4d1-8fb2-4fc9-a068-e650cf0ac8d8">Re: WWYD--WR & $$</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: WWYD--WR & $$ : You may be crying because of what you already know that you don't want to confront. If he's not good for you. He isn't good for you. Perhaps you need to do what's good for Rach (whatever that is), instead of what makes Rich's life easier.
Posted by bbyckes[/QUOTE]

I agree completely. I've been in that situation before, where all you want in the world is to love this guy and be with him but you know deep in your heart that something is wrong. Listen to your gut/heart/intuition. Don't ignore it.

RachNRich · December 2009

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_wwyd-wr?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:4219d3e4-0740-491b-972c-68004c2eaf7cPost:ee7d7a1a-b17f-40ac-9cf4-caa2c0f40bf8">Re: WWYD--WR & $$</a>:
[QUOTE]Whoever suggested premarital counseling has a good point. In fact, I think you should insist on it (and if you've already had it, then you need to go back).
Posted by cocoreo3[/QUOTE]

We've been to counseling (to address the issues with his sister), and they backfired on us. Like I said earlier--he has the brain of a super-freaky-intelligent person, and I swear he's able to reason away anything. He was even able to reason away his sister's craziness within a number of appointments with the counselor.

I do agree we should go. I would really like to. This is something else I will bring up with him later.

salt78 · December 2009

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_wwyd-wr?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:4219d3e4-0740-491b-972c-68004c2eaf7cPost:482063c2-b1fc-45e7-8dca-654ea85a5e0b">Re: WWYD--WR & $$</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: WWYD--WR & $$ : I cannot forget this issues with his sister. They are still there. It scares the hell out of me when I think about all these things--and I get to a point where I don't know what to do. I love him more than anything---but sometimes I feel like we are worlds apart. And then I want to cry
Posted by RachNRich[/QUOTE]

You definitely need to talk to a counselor. I think this might be beyond anything that you can work out just by talking to him about it. I didn't even think of the implications of how he talks to your doctors, etc, until Pirata brought that up.

We love you and are here for you if you need to talk and vent, but if you are really going to walk down the aisle and marry this man in 2 months, these things need to get figured out. Stat.

RachNRich · December 2009

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_wwyd-wr?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:4219d3e4-0740-491b-972c-68004c2eaf7cPost:616ef36d-159c-439f-9c0e-88eafdf969dd">Re: WWYD--WR & $$</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: WWYD--WR & $$ : I agree completely. I've been in that situation before, where all you want in the world is to love this guy and be with him but you know deep in your heart that something is wrong. Listen to your gut/heart/intuition. Don't ignore it.
Posted by danieliza1127[/QUOTE]

I think you're very right. But i'm not sure if I'm being my own-worst-enemy, or if this is the wrong road for me.

I've known all along that our relationship was going to be different, and harder than anything normal, but that came with the situation of essentially dating my boss in a world that has rules against it. So, that being said, things have never followed a normal path for us---and I'm hoping I've just not been making excuses all along.

Pirata13 · December 2009

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_wwyd-wr?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:4219d3e4-0740-491b-972c-68004c2eaf7cPost:482063c2-b1fc-45e7-8dca-654ea85a5e0b">Re: WWYD--WR & $$</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: WWYD--WR & $$ : I cannot forget this issues with his sister. They are still there. It scares the hell out of me when I think about all these things--and I get to a point where I don't know what to do. I love him more than anything---but sometimes I feel like we are worlds apart. And then I want to cry
Posted by RachNRich[/QUOTE]

This is exactly what I mean, Rach. I have been there, like some other PPs. I KNOW. I KNOW you love him more than anything. I KNOW you want this to work. I KNOW. But you know what, I KNEW 6 months into mine that I should run like lightning. And I didn't. Even though it taught me a lot about myself and what I would/should and wouldn't/shouldn't put up with, I wish I would have hung up the phone and never looked back when he said "If you don't like the way I talk to you, hang up." But I didn't, and that was the FIRST red flag I ignored.

The fact that he can "explain everything" and you feel like an idiot is not that you don't get things. People like Rich and like my ex are very good at making people feel like it's on THEM and that it's US that is taking things too personal or making "too big of a deal" about an issue. They're good at it, and we don't even know they're doing it.

Cacoffer said it well, Rach. This is way bigger than you just talking to Rich. You need to really face all things within yourself, and it is not easy, it so totally is not. But you may come up with a lot of answers. And they might not feel good now, but later...just later you will know they were the right answers.

RaiKai · December 2009

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_wwyd-wr?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:4219d3e4-0740-491b-972c-68004c2eaf7cPost:3f44b33d-4862-4089-9bf1-fe3d658e4727">Re: WWYD--WR & $$</a>:
[QUOTE]. He's just so smart (and I mean this is a good way) that he always is able to explain everything . And I end up feeling like an idiot in the end. I always do---but thats probably more on me than anyone else.
Posted by RachNRich[/QUOTE]

Yes, well, he may be intelligent but that does not mean your feelings are not valid. It also does not give him a right to have contempt for your feelings or waive them off with "logic". This to me just indicates a very unhealthy dynamic - and it's more evidence of that power/control relationship (just with "intelligence" instead of money).

I have not been around here very long, but I also reckon YOU are very smart. Don't diminish your own intelligence, feelings and emotions.

bbyckes · December 2009

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_wwyd-wr?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:4219d3e4-0740-491b-972c-68004c2eaf7cPost:04de85ea-a638-42bf-9c36-c64fdc4fe4b5">Re: WWYD--WR & $$</a>:
[QUOTE] I've known all along that our relationship was going to be different, and harder than anything normal, but that came with the situation of essentially dating my boss in a world that has rules against it. So, that being said, things have never followed a normal path for us---and I'm hoping I've just not been making excuses all along.
Posted by RachNRich[/QUOTE]

Don't be a martyr. Sure relationships are difficult, but you should never feel like your feelings and concerns don't matter. Don't sacrifice yourself to make a relationship work - because that never works out.

I have been in relationships where I kept having to talk myself into believing that it would all just work out if only this were different or that were different. Long story short, it never worked out for me. Coincidentally, it ALWAYS worked out for him. I had to stop making excuses.

salt78 · December 2009

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_wwyd-wr?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:4219d3e4-0740-491b-972c-68004c2eaf7cPost:61ac0a30-8d65-4478-805f-a9f66a4e39ef">Re: WWYD--WR & $$</a>:
[QUOTE]Like I said earlier--he has the brain of a super-freaky-intelligent person, and I swear he's able to reason away anything. He was even able to reason away his sister's craziness within a number of appointments with the counselor.
Posted by RachNRich[/QUOTE]

I'm going to be totally blantantly honest here, but this doesn't sound "smart" to me so much as it sounds "manipulative".

beatlesgirl25 · December 2009

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_wwyd-wr?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:4219d3e4-0740-491b-972c-68004c2eaf7cPost:61ac0a30-8d65-4478-805f-a9f66a4e39ef">Re: WWYD--WR & $$</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: WWYD--WR & $$ : We've been to counseling (to address the issues with his sister), and they backfired on us. Like I said earlier--he has the brain of a super-freaky-intelligent person, and I swear he's able to reason away anything. He was even able to reason away his sister's craziness within a number of appointments with the counselor. I do agree we should go. I would really like to. This is something else I will bring up with him later.
Posted by RachNRich[/QUOTE]

Okay, he's smart, and intellectualizing problems like this is an unconcsious defense, and must be very frustrating to try to break through because he probably doesn't realize he's doing it. He might have "reasoned" things out with you in a few sessions, but I bet your therapist picked up on the fact that he's doing this, and that you accept it. Sometimes reasoning out problems is not enough, if you are still this unhappy afterward.

It's not about him being smart or you feeling not as smart, it just suggests he's not willing to explore and accept the unknown with you, and that his reasoning is not changing how you feel so it's pointless. So therapy is definitely a good choice to go back to if you can convince him. But the goal should not be to make you understand his reasoning, it should be for you both to reach a satisfying compromise and understanding of each other. His intelligence should not be used to shift the power in his favor.

lyndausvi · December 2009

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_wwyd-wr?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:4219d3e4-0740-491b-972c-68004c2eaf7cPost:3f44b33d-4862-4089-9bf1-fe3d658e4727">Re: WWYD--WR & $$</a>:
[QUOTE] He's just so smart (and I mean this is a good way) that he always is able to explain everything . And I end up feeling like an idiot in the end. I always do---but thats probably more on me than anyone else. 
Posted by RachNRich[/QUOTE]

Really? That is one of the sadest things I have read. He has such control over you, you can't even find your own opinions anymore.

I'm sorry, there are so many red flags in your relationship it's beginning to look like a store grand opening.

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