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Catholic Weddings

Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?

Hi ladies, this is my first post on this board but I would really love to hear your opinions on this.

CN: I'm protestant, FI is Catholic. I was previously married, and the Archdiocese has received all testimony, etc for my annulment. The priest judging my case just sent a second request for my release of mental health records from the counselor I saw at the end of the marriage. I'm trying to politely decline, I feel like the testimony should be enough. Do you think that will be construed as trying to hide something / uncooperative?

The long story: I was married for four years previously. My ex-husband and I had our whole lives planned out before we even got married. we knew our exact career and financial goals, how we were going to achieve them, and when we were going to start our family. Except, when we got to the starting the family part of the plan, he had changed his mind, telling me he didn't want to have kids. This wasn't the entire reason we split up, but was the straw that broke the camels back. He treated our marriage like, well now you're stuck with me I don't have to try to put any effort into our relationship because you can't leave.

I started seeing a therapist because my unhappiness with my marriage was spreading to the rest of my life and I was just kind of universally miserable and depressed. My therapist was actually recommended to me by my EAP at my job at the time. She specialized in job-related issues, and career guidance, communication at work, separating work life from personal, that kind of thing. But through my sessions with her, I was really able to realize that the deteriorating relationship with my husband was the reason for my unhappiness. I eventually gave him an ultimatum - that he go to counseling with me so we could figure out how to make our marriage work, or we split up. He chose divorce. With the benefit of hindsight, I'm relatively certain that the reason for his choice, as well as the lack of interest in me or our relationship was because he was cheating on me. His girlfriend got pregnant about a week after we separated... pretty weird for a guy with no interest in physical intimacy / having children, right?

Fast forward a few years, I have this amazing fiance, and he is Catholic. He actually told me on our first date that if we get married it has to be in the Catholic Church. We've always gotten conflicting information whether I need an annulment - ex-H was never baptized in any church, I'm not catholic, and we were married by a JP. When fiance and I got engaged and talked to our parish priest about setting our date - we were told then it's "short form" to ask the bishop for permission to marry. We found out a few months later that I'd actually need an annulment and started that process in June. 

I've been incredibly lucky so far - the priest at our parish feels terrible about giving us the wrong advice to begin with and has helped to rush the process so we can still get married in December. But I feel like asking for my mental health records is WAY too invasive. The process is already so intrusive to me, and asking for my therapist's records is going too far, in my opinion. I think the testimony provided by me and my witnesses should be enough. Particularly since my therapist never even met my ex-H.

Am I being uncooperative / stubborn for feeling like getting the notes from my therapy sessions is just a little too much? I was originally told by the archdiocese that I could decline without it affecting my case, but the sister I spoke with today said that if there's a second request it's probably for a good reason. If I am being unreasonable to decline to provide this info, can you make a good argument for why I should sign the release?

TIA.
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Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?

  • The Catholic church takes marriage very seriously. It believes people when they make vows to each other, and marriage is for life. So you have not been free to marry anyone, as you are still considered to be married to your first husband. Your "fi" really shouldn't have started dating anyone who wasn't free to marry. I'm sorry you've gotten conflicting info and the priest should have known better.

    So, because the church takes marriage so seriously, and wants to be thorough in investigating your first marriage, it HAS to know all the circumstances involved to know the full truth of whether your first marriage was valid or not. It does not want to only have half the info and rule that the marriage is invalid, when actually, it could have been, and then put you guys in a position of living in adultery. 

    It would be a VERY good thing for you to allow the records to be released. Anybody can give testimony to their side of things, but there needs to be some backing up of the state of everything. You can share here on the forum what all went on, but the tribunal is just as anonymous...why not there? Tribunals always presume the marriage is valid until proven otherwise, so if they need these records to have the full story, it can only help you. 
  • I have no idea, and  I'm a little confused as to why they'd want your mental health records? All I can say is good luck!!!  Hopefully one of the other ladies here can give you some good advice!

    I think it's really awesome that you're going through with all of this so that you can marry in your FI's church.  That shows a tremendous amount of respect for him and his beliefs.

     

  • Agape -- would a non-Catholic even be allowed to start the annulment process if she wasn't engaged to a Catholic?  I don't think it's really fair to say that her FI shouldn't have started dating her. 

    Also, back in the 50s, Catholics did not consider JP marriages valid.  My grandmother was married by the JP, then divorced.  She later married in the Catholic Church.  She never received an annulment, as they considered her to have never been married, and there was no marriage to annul.  She was, however, excommunicated when she was married by the JP, and was only allowed to receive sacraments after proving her divorce.  So basically, a lot of Catholics still kinda think that's how it works.

     

  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:f6ae7731-5bd7-4518-b070-f6f9d6b0ed8d">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]The Catholic church takes marriage very seriously. It believes people when they make vows to each other, and marriage is for life. So you have not been free to marry anyone, as you are still considered to be married to your first husband. Your "fi" really shouldn't have started dating anyone who wasn't free to marry. I'm sorry you've gotten conflicting info and the priest should have known better. So, because the church takes marriage so seriously, and wants to be thorough in investigating your first marriage, it HAS to know all the circumstances involved to know the full truth of whether your first marriage was valid or not. It does not want to only have half the info and rule that the marriage is invalid, when actually, it could have been, and then put you guys in a position of living in adultery.  It would be a VERY good thing for you to allow the records to be released. Anybody can give testimony to their side of things, but there needs to be some backing up of the state of everything. You can share here on the forum what all went on, but the tribunal is just as anonymous...why not there? Tribunals always presume the marriage is valid until proven otherwise, so if they need these records to have the full story, it can only help you. 
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

    I hope you realize that I'm giving you all the 10,000 ft version of the story, and gave the tribunal the detailed life-story version. Also, I understand the entire process quite thoroughly, my specific question relates to my mental health records. How does my personal conversations with my therapist add to the "full story" when she never met my ex-H, and I didn't even see her specifically for that anyway? that's the piece that I'm struggling with. Thank you for your response.
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:c5c29672-9c9f-46e3-953c-6c25a1a9d350">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]Agape -- would a non-Catholic even be allowed to start the annulment process if she wasn't engaged to a Catholic?  I don't think it's really fair to say that her FI shouldn't have started dating her.  Also, back in the 50s, Catholics did not consider JP marriages valid.  My grandmother was married by the JP, then divorced.  She later married in the Catholic Church.  She never received an annulment, as they considered her to have never been married, and there was no marriage to annul.  She was, however, excommunicated when she was married by the JP, and was only allowed to receive sacraments after proving her divorce.  So basically, a lot of Catholics still kinda think that's how it works.
    Posted by Resa77[/QUOTE]

    <div>A CATHOLIC cannot marry outside the catholic church by a JP. A non-catholic is not bound by canonical form, so non-catholics can get married by a JP and it still be considered valid. </div><div>
    </div><div>It is very fair to say dating shouldn't happen. When someone is already married, they are not free to marry, therefore dating is pointless and can lead to heartbreakm because an annulment is never guaranteed.</div><div>
    </div>
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:3bf509d1-6bdc-413b-8d11-3934c240a00b">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative? : I hope you realize that I'm giving you all the 10,000 ft version of the story, and gave the tribunal the detailed life-story version. Also, I understand the entire process quite thoroughly, my specific question relates to my mental health records. How does my personal conversations with my therapist add to the "full story" when she never met my ex-H, and I didn't even see her specifically for that anyway? that's the piece that I'm struggling with. Thank you for your response.
    Posted by maggieandrey[/QUOTE]

    <div>As I said, Because it can back up what you have told the tribunal. It can give insight into whether you had impediments to a free consent, and might add on qualifiers for future impediments. </div>
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:157093c9-7e0b-41f4-baf3-1b65e65ebbca">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative? : A CATHOLIC cannot marry outside the catholic church by a JP. A non-catholic is not bound by canonical form, so non-catholics can get married by a JP and it still be considered valid.  It is very fair to say dating shouldn't happen. When someone is already married, they are not free to marry, therefore dating is pointless and can lead to heartbreakm because an annulment is never guaranteed.
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

    In his defense, he and his entire family, including a priest and a nun, thought that my first marriage was invalid and therefore I would not need an annulment. As a non-catholic, I have no reason to challenge them. We have obviously learned that this is not the case since then, but should we have broke off our engagement once learning that my marriage <em>may </em>be valid?
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:248f91e8-8a1d-4bfd-8714-6b40e0fd59d0">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative? : As I said, Because it can back up what you have told the tribunal. It can give insight into whether you had impediments to a free consent, and might add on qualifiers for future impediments. 
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

    Please don't interpret me as being argumentative, because I truly appreciate your opinion here. My therapist didn't know me when I got married - she knew me at the end of my marriage. The testimony that was provided by me and my witnesses, in my opinion, is sufficent to judge whether my marriage was valid or not. There is nothing that my therapist can provide that would add to the evidence already presented, and really, that is what they need correct?

    I understand what you're saying about future impediments, but obviously, I sought counseling and resolved the issues that I had. Why does that can of worms need to be reopened for another person to examine when it really had nothing to do with me at the point of consenting to marry - which is what the tribunal is trying to determine?
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  • Maybe I'm confused - but I think "mental health records" aren't necessarily the same as "notes taken during therapy sessions that expose everything you might have discusses" Right?

    The Church is likely trying to confirm that there weren't any serious issues that would preclude you from being able to commit to a marriage.... Personally, I wouldn't want to slow down the process and the Church is trying to do this to help you. So eventhough it is really painful and perhaps invasive, the purpose is to free you from this. Many of the ladies on this board have gone through annulments and can attest to relief they were given.

    Can you talk to your therapist and ask them what they would be providing? It might be a very simple, short form...
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:157093c9-7e0b-41f4-baf3-1b65e65ebbca">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative? : A CATHOLIC cannot marry outside the catholic church by a JP. A non-catholic is not bound by canonical form, so non-catholics can get married by a JP and it still be considered valid.  <strong>It is very fair to say dating shouldn't happen. When someone is already married, they are not free to marry, therefore dating is pointless and can lead to heartbreakm because an annulment is never guaranteed.</strong>
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

    It is your opinion that they shouldn't have ever started dating.  If her FI had every reason to believe her first marriage was not valid, and was even told by a priest that an annulment wouldn't be needed, then he did nothing wrong.  Furthermore, if he decided that OP was special enough to take that risk, and that if things went well he was willing to help her through the annulment process (and she, in turn, is willing to go through the annulment process), then I think that's his choice.  It's your opinion that it's not a choice worth making because there aren't guarantees.  I don't think it's fair to state your opinion -- which basically says OP shouldn't be with her FI -- as though it's Catholic teaching.

     

  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:3bf509d1-6bdc-413b-8d11-3934c240a00b">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative? : I hope you realize that I'm giving you all the 10,000 ft version of the story, and gave the tribunal the detailed life-story version. Also, I understand the entire process quite thoroughly, my specific question relates to my mental health records. How does my personal conversations with my therapist add to the "full story" when she never met my ex-H, and I didn't even see her specifically for that anyway? that's the piece that I'm struggling with. Thank you for your response.
    Posted by maggieandrey[/QUOTE]

    I don't have any personal experience with the annulment process, but I'm looking at this from my work perspective, and what I would tell our clients when they get frustrated with the discovery process in a lawsuit, and wonder why they have to provide all this personal  information (access to medical records, school records, etc.).

    What I tell them is that because they've commenced a lawsuit, the other party now is entitled to discover what information they have to back up their claims, and to discover information that may lead to something relevant to the claims, whether it's positive or negative.  In your situation, because you have commenced the annulment process, the tribunal is now looking for any information relevant to help them evaluate your case.  Because the tribunal is aware that the records exist, they'll want to see them to find out what's in there.  The records from your therapist might just confirm that you've already reported, they might provide additional information that could help your annulment be granted, or maybe the tribunal won't find them to be all that relevant if she never met your ex-H or that wasn't the focus of your meetings. Either way, it's up to the tribunal to determine if they contain information that's relevant/helpful/harmful to granting you an annulment.
  • i agree with agape in that married persons arent supposed to date.  just because the state says you are divorced, the catholic church still considers you married.  however, in OP's case, they were apparently misinformed by a priest which is unfortunate. 

    all that aside, mental health can play a big role in whether or not yoru marriage was valid.  the records may indicate that you had some issues PRIOR to the marriage based on whatever hte discussions were.  annulments look at everything leading up to the date of marriage, not what transpired during hte marriage.

    id produce them, especially if you are trying to get married in December.   you dont want to slow the process down.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:7e49471e-ffc6-47f1-8e83-d641d9364026">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative? : I don't have any personal experience with the annulment process, but I'm looking at this from my work perspective, and what I would tell our clients when they get frustrated with the discovery process in a lawsuit, and wonder why they have to provide all this personal  information (access to medical records, school records, etc.). What I tell them is that because they've commenced a lawsuit, the other party now is entitled to discover what information they have to back up their claims, and to discover information that may lead to something relevant to the claims, whether it's positive or negative.  In your situation, because you have commenced the annulment process, the tribunal is now looking for any information relevant to help them evaluate your case.  <em>Because the tribunal is aware that the records exist, they'll want to see them to find out what's in there.  The records from your therapist might just confirm that you've already reported, they might provide additional information that could help your annulment be granted, or maybe the tribunal won't find them to be all that relevant if she never met your ex-H or that wasn't the focus of your meetings. Either way, it's up to the tribunal to determine if they contain information that's relevant/helpful/harmful to granting you an annulment.</em>
    Posted by erin5286[/QUOTE]

    Thank you for this. I hadn't really thought about it that way.
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:d414394f-e815-4d40-8db0-0215c2c29a17">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE] <strong>i agree with agape in that married persons arent supposed to date.  just because the state says you are divorced, the catholic church still considers you married. </strong> however, in OP's case, they were apparently misinformed by a priest which is unfortunate.  all that aside, mental health can play a big role in whether or not yoru marriage was valid.  the records may indicate that you had some issues PRIOR to the marriage based on whatever hte discussions were.  annulments look at everything leading up to the date of marriage, not what transpired during hte marriage. id produce them, especially if you are trying to get married in December.   you dont want to slow the process down.
    Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]

    <div>Yes, but I agree with Resa that because the OP is not Catholic and is not bound by Catholic form, she (and her FI) had no reason to suspect that her first marriage would present any trouble.  I do agree that if she was told an annulment wouldn't be necessary that that is wrong, but that's in the past and telling her that her FI had no business dating her in the first place is really irrelevant at this point.  It's like telling someone who lost their leg to a staph infection that they shouldn't have gotten staph.</div><div>
    </div><div>OP, I know it can seem like a huge invasion of privacy, but as other posters have mentioned, the intention is to gather as much information as possible in order to make the correct decision.  I know it can be frustrating, but please know that it really is with the best intentions.  If your first marriage is deemed valid and you go through with your wedding, then you and your FI are (in the eyes of the church) committing adultery, which is a HUGE sin.</div><div>
    </div><div>I truly hope that things work out for you.  Perhaps you can talk with the priest who is helping you along in the process about your concerns?  Maybe they can assuage you.</div>
    Anniversary

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  • Thank all you ladies for your input. My fiance's been really supportive, but all he says about this is that if I don't feel comfortable doing it then don't sign the release.

    I'm going to sign and send it in today. I still don't feel like it's the "right" thing, but I think you made a lot of good points, and I really do want a decision so if they're going to wait for this I don't want to hold up the process.

    As a side note, yes we realize that it's a huge sin if my marriage is deemed valid and we still get married. We have discussed all the implications and options ad nauseum with our priest. But, we will be getting married on December 29 regardless. We have been praying that this will all go through and it will be at our Church, but if it doesn't, we feel like we've done everything that we can - and that we can't be together isn't the right answer.
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  • I truly hope and pray that this all works out!
  • Maggie,

    Having been through the long annulment process, I can tell you that in my case they did NOT get the therapist notes from our sessions, but only a verification of having recieved therapy as well as the contact information for the therapist. Obviously, your therapist, as was mine, is bound by confidentiality. They cannot divulge your records without your consent.

    As invasive as this process can be, and frustrating that your future is in the hands of others, I would encourage you to give them your therapists contact info for verification. They'll want dates of length of time in therapy, maybe the number of total visits. That shouldn't be too bad to give them.

    Really, though, regardless of what we all say, this is your and your FI's lives. Only the two of you can decide what measures you feel are appropriate to take while understanding the consequences. What does you FI say about this? What are his feelings if your annulment is denied based on the lack of this one thing? I think once you have your answers to those questions, you'll know what to do.

    Best of luck to you both, and prayers for a speedy resolution!
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  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 100 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited September 2012
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:9ab035cb-e1c0-49e3-98b9-49150a255f6b">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative? : It is your opinion that they shouldn't have ever started dating.  If her FI had every reason to believe her first marriage was not valid, and was even told by a priest that an annulment wouldn't be needed, then he did nothing wrong.  Furthermore, if he decided that OP was special enough to take that risk, and that if things went well he was willing to help her through the annulment process (and she, in turn, is willing to go through the annulment process), then I think that's his choice.  It's your opinion that it's not a choice worth making because there aren't guarantees.  I don't think it's fair to state your opinion -- which basically says OP shouldn't be with her FI -- as though it's Catholic teaching.
    Posted by Resa77[/QUOTE]<div>
    </div><div>This is not my opinion, this is Catholic teaching, It's pretty basic. The purpose of dating is to discern marriage. A person who is married already, and divorced, is still presumed to be married until proven otherwise.  A civil divorce by the state cannot disolve an actual marriage. The person is still married. Entering into any kind of romantic relationship with someone, no matter how special, is risking hurting them and self. There are one of 2 documents that can be obtained-- either the full out declaration of nullity, or the lack of form decree that says someone is free to marry.</div><div>
    </div><div>I disagree with the fact that this isn't helpful info. Everyone blames the church for the painful process annulment brings, yet so many of them are putting themselves in this position to begin with, and the church is not the cause of it. (I'm not referring specifically to the OP here, just in general). </div><div>
    </div>
  • agape - Can a non-Catholic go to the Catholic Church for an annulment without having a Catholic marriage "in-sight"? I'm not sure what non-Catholic would even know to do this, but just posing the question...

    But, basically, what we're saying here, is that when a Catholic finds out that someone they are interested in has been married before, they need to make sure they either had an annulment, or force them to go through the annulment process BEFORE going on a date with them. I see how that works, but would agree that it would likely not happen in "real life", even if it is the proper way to go about it.


  • agape, exactly.  then you run into situations like what OP has, given her comment above:

    As a side note, yes we realize that it's a huge sin if my marriage is deemed valid and we still get married. We have discussed all the implications and options ad nauseum with our priest. But, we will be getting married on December 29 regardless.

    it takes a very, very strong person to walk away from a relationship. most cant or wont do it.  that's why there is an enormous percentage of catholics who are married outside of the church for Round 2 (but often still participate in the sacraments even tho they arent supposed to!).

    but the problem ive seen is that the Church doesnt seem to explore annulment options with divroced people at the time they get the divorce.  in fact, at least in MA, tehy wont even talk annulmetn with you until you have a finalized civil divorce which in my opinion is completely backwards.  so the majority of the time, it seems people seek annulment only when they are looking to remarry, rather than doing it as soon as they get divorced to then give them the freedom to date.

  • But, basically, what we're saying here, is that when a Catholic finds out that someone they are interested in has been married before, they need to make sure they either had an annulment, or force them to go through the annulment process BEFORE going on a date with them. I see how that works, but would agree that it would likely not happen in "real life", even if it is the proper way to go about it.

    i was raised to not even bother dating people who were divorced.  thus, you avoid this issue entirely.  of course, as you get older it gets more difficult.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:585d04fb-0f61-425f-ac93-674ac726113c">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]TiAs a side note, yes we realize that it's a huge sin if my marriage is deemed valid and we still get married. We have discussed all the implications and options ad nauseum with our priest. But, we will be getting married on December 29 regardless. We have been praying that this will all go through and it will be at our Church, but if it doesn't, we feel like we've done everything that we can - and that we can't be together isn't the right answer.
    Posted by maggieandrey[/QUOTE]

    <div>Maggieandrey,</div><div>
    </div><div>I'm very very disappointed to hear this. In fact, I don't think you do realize its a "huge sin" if you plan on going through it anyway. The only things that are sins are things that actually <em>harm</em> us. So basically you are saying that even though its harmful to you and you fiance, you're going to do it anyway.  This is NOT loving. You may not see it as harmful, but this is how evil decieves and makes things appear good even though they aren't. Faith and Good are not based on feelings and what we want, but in following God's laws. </div><div>
    </div><div>God's law is pretty simple in this one. Thou shalt not commit adultery. You made vows to someone else. The church is <em><u>HONORING </u></em>you by presuming that you meant it. She is honoring you by being a loving mother and holding you to vows you made, until its proven that there are circumstances that made those vows invalid. </div><div>
    </div><div>Because marriage is presumed to be valid, you are still considered married to someone else. Therefore, by getting civilly married, you are making a public statement that you will be living in a state of adultery. This is very serious business, as your fiance will be turning away from His church, and will no longer be able to receive the sacraments which bring infinite grace. <em><strong><u>This is putting your souls in danger. </u></strong></em></div><div><em><strong><u>
    </u></strong></em></div><div>How is this a loving thing to do? It isn't. Marriage is for the purpose of helping get each other to heaven. Not providing an atmosphere for a basic state of mortal sin, constantly being unrepentant of a self-deceptive state of lacking grace. </div><div>
    </div><div>The governemnt does not make a marriage. Just because the government says you are legally married doesn't mean you are. It is unfortunate that you've been so misinformed until now, but honestly, if it was that important to your fiance to get married in the church from the very beginning, he should have made the approrpiate moves at the beginning of the dating relationship to insure it could happen. I'm NOT trying to place blame here, but to lay out the reality that your view of "doing everything you can" is really not complete here. Perhaps, if you look at it this way, then you will find the strength to delay the farce of a legal wedding to do things in the right order out of love for your fiance. </div>
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:0d5d2df7-046d-4a90-b957-4e65e343c3d1">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]But, basically, what we're saying here, is that when a Catholic finds out that someone they are interested in has been married before, they need to make sure they either had an annulment, or force them to go through the annulment process BEFORE going on a date with them. I see how that works, but would agree that it would likely not happen in "real life", even if it is the proper way to go about it. <strong>i was raised to not even bother dating people who were divorced.  thus, you avoid this issue entirely.  of course, as you get older it gets more difficult.</strong>
    Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]

    <div>Yeah, I can see where this makes sense in theory (it is practical, so that you don't "risk" falling in love with someone who cannot marry, I guess), but it seems like a really difficult practice.  For example, my SIL tried for ten years to make her marriage work, but in the end it was dissolved.  To think that she just needs to give up because her husband was unwilling to fulfill his role is pretty harsh.</div>
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:12da1664-ba9c-4026-82cd-7d93c24f344f">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative? : Yeah, I can see where this makes sense in theory (it is practical, so that you don't "risk" falling in love with someone who cannot marry, I guess), but it seems like a really difficult practice.  For example, my SIL tried for ten years to make her marriage work, but in the end it was dissolved.  To think that she just needs to give up because her husband was unwilling to fulfill his role is pretty harsh.
    Posted by professorscience[/QUOTE]

    <div>I disagree. I have several male friends whose wives left them after having affairs. They are living faithful to their wives (although living like a single person) because that's how they vowed. One will not apply for annulment, the other just hasn't yet. </div><div>
    </div><div>-its not "giving up". It's sanctifying.</div><div>-living as a single person is not a choice for death, or "giving up"</div><div>-- its not "harsh" because its not a punishment given by the church. It's a free choice a person makes to enter into marriage vows.</div><div>
    </div>
  • Calypso --  do you mean divorced at all, or just divorced but not annulled?  Because if you mean just divorced at all, that seems pretty harsh!  Good people get divorced, and it's not a sin.  It's not very charitable to stigmatize them.  Someone who is divorced but has an annulled marriage is free to marry, and is not less worthy of someone's love and devotion.

     

  • agape, i think we have to remember that OP is not catholic.  divorce and annulment and teh catholic view/position on both is often difficult to grasp and understand for catholics, let alone members of other faiths.

    clearly people struggle with this.  as i said above, people move on to date and remarry and they either dont understand that tehy cant do this or they dont care or both.  my mom has a friend who has 3 ex-husbands.  i believe her first was in the church, the other 2 are not.  she now lives iwth a man.  she goes to communion every sunday and is even an EM!  i assume her priest is aware of her situation.  i think people like this lead to the confusion and the misconception that its ok to just remarry outside the church and still participate like you did nothing wrong.
  • resa - i meant divorced with no annulment. 
  • Okay, good!  Because I was like "darn, that's strict!"

    OP -- I sympathize, and I really respect you for making these efforts for you FI.  I'm actually disappointed in him, though...he should know better than to marry (or promise to marry) someone outside the Church.  I certainly don't feel like I can really shame "shame on you, OP!" because you're not Catholic, so of course you don't get it.  But seriously, that's a really big deal.  I hope that you and your FI will reconsider that choice.  Well, I hope your annulment will go through before then, but still...I hope you'll both reconsider your backup plan. 

     

  • If my fiance had known at the beginning that I would need an annulment, we wouldn't have dated. I'm certain of this because 1) we had the conversation early on with his great-uncle who's a priest, his aunt who's a nun and his godmother who is Opus Dei to make sure that I was OK and 2) I wouldn't have dated him if I'd known at the beginning that I may have to go through this process.

    So actually I will blame the Catholic Church for having a subjective rule on the matter, which is different in the US than it is in other countries (which is probably what caused us to be under the assumption that I wouldn't need an annulment - his family is Filipino and our priest is Indian.)

    While I appreciate your opinion on the matter, Agape, our priest has counseled us that even if my annulment isn't granted, and we can't get married in the church, that he can live with a clear conscience for trying to abide by the church's law which is clearly the word of man, not of God. While he may not receive the sacrament, we could still raise our children Catholic, if we desire to do so.

    My savior, Jesus Christ, doesn't slam the door in the face of sinners, he forgives and welcomes with open arms anyone into his kingdom who believes and repents. That's part of the reason why I'm Christian and not Catholic (the rest of my family has converted over the last 15 years or so.) I have no worries for my own soul or for his - that's between us and God.
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