Has this news reached your neck of the woods?

Blueyed228 · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:83a70298-5c50-4368-b3ec-b010d5abfd2b">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods? : I think this is one of the times that we look at morals vs.. laws and the argument can that there is a clear difference in them comes up. If we are looking at it all emotions aside, then the law states that he was wrong. Voluntary manslaughter would likely be the best offense to charge him with. If we are looking at it with emotions in tact, most people would say he was right in his actions to defend his daughter. FWIW, If I were on a jury, I doubt I would convict him even though, according to the law, he was wrong in his actions.
Posted by brandichamberlain[/QUOTE]

And that is why I think its a vigilante mindset. If you are saying you as a juror would disregard the law KNOWING that he broke it just because you think what he did was right makes me sad for our society.

This is a P&R because im walking into work.

MRSBJS · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:8ba55212-c41b-4cca-8751-b53def600869">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]Honestly? I'd be ok if he punched him to get him away/off of the daughter. But unless he's some kind of superhero, the likelihood of him killing the guy with a few punches is pretty low. He meant to do serious damage. Either way, he still deserves to pay the price for the crime. Question though- what if it was an older teenager the rapist had attacked and they punched the guy hard enough to kill him? That's self-defense then, right? Or even then should they have enough restraint to only make it stop? I'm not saying I'd agree to that either. Just curious if that changes anyone's opinion. If there's a difference between self defense and defending your 4-year old?
Posted by Steph+J[/QUO

The only difference I could see between it being a teenager or a smaller child is that a 4-year old has no chance against a grown man whereas a teenager might?

But - admittedly, my opinions are not objective.

cheeseandrice · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:d889c6f3-879f-4917-8617-953a55675e76">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods? : The only difference I could see between it being a teenager or a smaller child is that a 4-year old has no chance against a grown man whereas a teenager might? But - admittedly, my opinions are not objective.
Posted by MRSBJS[/QUOTE]

Oh. I meant, if the teenager was being molested and fought back killing the rapist. So, actual self-defense.

Mrs.B6302007 · June 2012

I was reading some of the replies to the article and someone posted the penal code regarding deadly force for the defense of someone else. If that info is accurate, it sounds like what he did isn't against the law.

brandichamberlain · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:a1d9e192-344c-4466-bd30-3d491f4ee338">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods? : And that is why I think its a vigilante mindset. If you are saying you as a juror would <strong>disregard the law KNOWING that he broke it just because you think what he did</strong> <strong>was right</strong>makes me sad for our society. This is a P&R because im walking into work.
Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]

You do make a valid point. I just think that the law defines things in black and white, but scenarios come up in the gray area. I don't so much as think what he did was right as I think it wasn't totally wrong (even though that really doesn't make much sense I guess). He was defending his small child, who could not defend herself. I don't know if he truly meant to kill the man or not, but I can see how someone would be so angry/have so much rage that their adrenaline would cause the punches to be harder and more frequent.

MRSBJS · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:bcc48451-9e58-4497-aeda-68b75b6715c4">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods? : Oh. I meant, if the teenager was being molested and fought back killing the rapist. So, actual self-defense.
Posted by Steph+J[/QUOTE]

Oh! No, I wouldn't think they would be expected just to make it stop. In that case, I think it would be even more defensible (is that a word?) because the person was in imminent danger and did what they needed to in order to save themselves.

SEWF · June 2012

I'd never be able to be on that jury. I'm too emotionally connected to things like this.

No, killing someone is never right. Best case scenario, you get all parties separated and safe, while still restraining the wrongdoer. But there is hardly ever a best case scenario in cases like this. Either the guy gets the crap kicked out of him (or worse, as in this situation) or he gets away with it. I'm sure the father meant to cause damage to the guy. I mean, who wouldn't? But the fact is he didn't stop after just one punch (unless he's a really strong guy). So I can see how he would go to jail if you take emotions out of the case.

I also think it is almost impossible to take the emotions out.

[Deleted User] · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:46e7ccc6-7a29-425c-b1d7-a463473136f9">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods? : Oh! No, I wouldn't think they would be expected just to make it stop. In that case, I think it would be even more defensible (is that a word?) because the person was in imminent danger and did what they needed to in order to save themselves.
Posted by MRSBJS[/QUOTE]

And a 4 year-old can't defend herself when in imminent danger. So, the father defends her.

MRSBJS · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:e0ebb1d8-0552-460b-aeba-2327689cea7c">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods? : And a 4 year-old can't defend herself when in imminent danger. So, the father defends her.
Posted by Seshat411[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

SEWF · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:fd25c950-75c4-4b07-9427-d2fe0862c62b">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods? : You do make a valid point. <strong>I just think that the law defines things in black and white, but scenarios come up in the gray area</strong>. I don't so much as think what he did was right as I think it wasn't totally wrong (even though that really doesn't make much sense I guess). He was defending his small child, who could not defend herself. I don't know if he truly meant to kill the man or not, but I can see how someone would be so angry/have so much rage that their adrenaline would cause the punches to be harder and more frequent.
Posted by brandichamberlain[/QUOTE]

<div>I think that makes sense. Isn't that a judges job: to interpret and enforce the law? I think there is a ton of gray in the law. So I can definitely see the guy going to court, but I think there is enough legal backing to get him off.</div>

MRSBJS · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:7004d7a2-df56-4e75-a8ab-93e68eb8c1a3">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods? : I think that makes sense. Isn't that a judges job: to <strong>interpret</strong> and enforce the law? I think there is a ton of gray in the law. So I can definitely see the guy going to court, but I think there is enough legal backing to get him off.
Posted by SEWF[/QUOTE]

I think that word makes the difference. It's the reason why sometimes different judges come back with different verdicts and/or sentences.

brandichamberlain · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:79dd1978-73fd-43cb-a338-d41eb8ea4192">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods? : I think that word makes the difference. It's the reason why sometimes different judges come back with different verdicts and/or sentences.
Posted by MRSBJS[/QUOTE]

I agree with this- I think it is the interpretation that makes the law seem gray. IMO, laws are very clear cut. It is emotions that make court cases cloudy. Jury selection is a really good example of that. Both sides are looking into the backgrounds and demographics of those who could possibly sit for the case. In this case,the defense will want men who are fathers whereas the prosecution wouldn't. That is because it comes down to the emotions people feel for things.

SEWF · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:79dd1978-73fd-43cb-a338-d41eb8ea4192">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods? : I think that word makes the difference. It's the reason why sometimes different judges come back with different verdicts and/or sentences.
Posted by MRSBJS[/QUOTE]

<div>And when things go to the Supreme Court, they vote on the cases. It's not always unanimous. There is a certain amount of interpretation in any law. </div>

dmiller9274 · June 2012

He didn't break the law. The law in Texas states that he was within his rights to use deadly force for an intruder that was engaged in a criminal activity. Case closed as far as I'm concerned. He was within his rights and it should be ruled a justifiable homicide.

kd.joseph · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:406db26f-8d09-4a0f-9626-c69b6589f883">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]He didn't break the law. The law in Texas states that he was within his rights to use deadly force for an intruder that was engaged in a criminal activity. Case closed as far as I'm concerned. He was within his rights and it should be ruled a justifiable homicide.
Posted by dmiller9274[/QUOTE]

Well Texas is its own country!

No in all seriousness, H and I both agree that as a parent if someone harms our children we have every right to defend them and in fact wish the law would allow the family to be locked in a room with the perpetrator. I really dont think any parent or anyone for that matter coming upon this wouldnt do the same thing.

dmiller9274 · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:520be0ba-c749-40d5-9862-360980511b29">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods? : I don't think someone you invite into your home is considered an intruder even if they're committing a crime.
Posted by djhar[/QUOTE]
This is one of those areas where it's a little fuzzy and varies state to state, but I think that the castle doctrine/stand your ground laws would still apply if the person you invited into your home, commits a crime unprovoked. Example, if you invite someone over, you punch them in the face, they retaliate, then you kill them, you are in the wrong because you instigated the fight that resulted in death. If you didn't instigate the situation, and you are in fear for the safety of an occupant of the home, you are still justified in using deadly force.

tkddddddddd · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:ea1b5e45-e3dd-4dcd-97fb-31175ef3a034">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]When did we become a society that disregards laws and encourages vigilantes?
Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]

<div>Somewhere around the time so many men like the one in the article abuse/rape/molest/etc. small children and end up on the streets again thanks to a mistrial or shorter-than-ever-necessary-jail-sentence. </div>

monkeysip · June 2012

I'm actually with Blue on this one.

To me, this isn't an issue of what's right vs. what's legal. All legal issues aside, I still don't think it's morally right to kill the guy.

To me, killing is only justified in defense (of self or others) cases when it was the absolute last resort, the only thing that would stop the offender. If you try to restrain the rapist/murderer, and he will not stop coming after you or someone else with intent to harm, then it's justifiable to use lethal force (even then, you can beat someone to incapacitate them without killing them). Obviously in the heat of the moment, it doesn't always work this way and it is understandable that an emotional father would throw morality aside and kill the man harming his daughter. But it doesn't make it right.

I would still find the father guilty in court, but with a lesser sentence because there was no pre-meditation, and because he is unlikely to repeat the crime. In cases like that, the person needs to be punished, but I also don't think it's right for his daughter to grow up without a father for her whole life because he committed a single crime of passion that he is unlikely to repeat.

monkeysip · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:b1c6f3ca-c2aa-4ca0-8465-d9ce4a80c4b7">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods? : First off, I don't know about you, but if a man was looming over my daughter I'd probably punch him right in the head to try to daze him or knock him out. I have no training in how to knock people out without killing them, I'm not a spy in a television show. Multiple articles have written that he had no idea that he had killed the guy and was very remoseful about it, but that in the moment his parental lizzard brain was simply looking to neutrlize the threat. Secondly, I'm not sure if it's true, but I've heard the reason he was alerted to the attack on his daughter is because she was screaming. So he comes inside, his daughter is screaming, he runs to find her, a friend is violating her, he instantly reacts by punching this guy in the back of the head, and meanwhile he was supposed to know how to do it in a non-lethal way? Or to simply push him off or something? I just thinki you're asking WAY too much of this guy. He defended his daughter in the heat of the moment. Protecting your loved one, let alone your child, is just too instinctual to ask someone to be logical about where your definsive blows are going and with what force and to know the exact moment when the threat is gone.
Posted by Harry87[/QUOTE]

Hence, why I said, "Obviously in the heat of the moment, it doesn't always work this way and it is understandable that an emotional father would throw morality aside and kill the man harming his daughter." I agree, depending upon the circumstances of this situation, it's not always possible to figure out whether you're inflicting lethal force on someone or not, or what the results of your actions will be. My post is more theoretical, and obviously circumstances will change the degree to which this man is responsible. My point, however, is that some people think it's ok to automatically kill someone who is attacking you or a loved one. And some people have no remorse from it. This is what I don't think is right. If the guy in the story has remorse, then even he realizes his actions were not just and taking a life, even the life of a rapist, is never a "good" thing, even if it had good effects.

Has this news reached your neck of the woods?

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