Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate

AllAboutTheBenjamin · March 2012

And I'd love to hear your thoughts (yeah I'm a post/link hoar today, suck it suckahs)

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/03/12/442637/georgia-rep-compares-women-to-animals/?mobile=nc

CN - Georiga lawmakers debate a bill that would outlaw abortions after 20 weeks even if the fetus is dead or not expected to live after birth.

Note, this is an extremely biased (read: left) article. But to me it doesn't make the fact that this particular rep is comparing women to livestock in his debate speech any less shocking.

Blueyed228 · March 2012

Im not ok with abortions after 20 weeks.

Plus, if the fetus is dead, it would be induced labor no?

AllAboutTheBenjamin · March 2012

From what I understand, you'd have to just sit and wait for nature to take its course.

ETA - FWIW Blue, I also don't like abortion after 20 weeks - but if the fetus is dead, I guess I don't see an issue.

Y I Oughta · March 2012

I can't open the article because it's blocked at work but I think this is ridiculous. (ETA: The comparison to livestock, not the law) I am unsure how I feel about the law. I think if the child is severely disabled or will cause sever life threatening harm to the mother they should be allowed to abort.)

As a side note I will add that the first ever child abuse case was a comparison of the child to livestock. You were allowed to abuse your child but not your animals, so they said the kid was a possession just like livestock.

baystateapple · March 2012

What? So a woman would have to carry around a dead fetus for up to an additional 20 weeks? That's...disgusting. Take away the emotional side of it entirely, carrying around a dead human in your body can NOT be healthy at all. Sepsis? Wtf.

mica178 · March 2012

It's not really an abortion if the fetus is dead. Then it's a D&C, and the Catholic church is a-okay with D&C for miscarriage or spontaneous fetal death.

I love being compared to livestock.

ErinG93 · March 2012

I eat pigs after they die. I mean...that's the fucking dumbest comparison I've heard in a while.

Blueyed228 · March 2012

Boobs- i agree with you. I just didnt make it clear. If the fetus is dead, like Mica said, its not an abortion. Its a medical procedure.

Plus, if im not mistaken, if the fetus is dead and not removed, it can be seriously dangerous to mom.

RupertPenny · March 2012

Stuff like this pisses me off. Even if the idea or intent is not that bad this kind of rhetoric is maddening. How difficult is it to understand that comparing women to livestock might not be an awesome idea?

AllAboutTheBenjamin · March 2012

On the other side of it though - if they know the baby will not survive, they can't terminate? I just don't like that. It's hard enough to know you're losing your baby anyway, I can't imagine having to have to carry it to term only for it to fucking die. FFS.

Blueyed228 · March 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:5fafe26e-77ba-43ed-96f1-902f8cf6a067">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]On the other side of it though - if they know the baby will not survive, they can't terminate? I just don't like that. It's hard enough to know you're losing your baby anyway, I can't imagine having to have to carry it to term only for it to fucking die. FFS.
Posted by AllAboutTheBenjamin[/QUOTE]

I agree. But I think there are exceptions in place for situations like that. If the pregnancy is not viable and/or dangerous to the mom, you can terminate at just about anytime. I think.

baystateapple · March 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:5fafe26e-77ba-43ed-96f1-902f8cf6a067">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]On the other side of it though - if they know the baby will not survive, they can't terminate? I just don't like that. It's hard enough to know you're losing your baby anyway, I can't imagine having to have to carry it to term only for it to fucking die. FFS.
Posted by AllAboutTheBenjamin[/QUOTE]

I know (online, anyway) a woman who found out via ultrasound that her baby had anencephaly (no brain). After a few days of agonized debating, she and her husband decided to induce labor, because she could not imagine carrying her baby to term knowing that it was going to die (she still had over half her pregnancy to go). This is not a decision she made lightly. It was heartbreaking, it was awful, but it was HER CHOICE. And that's the way it should be.

mica178 · March 2012

There are those who argue that we often don't know if the condition we diagnose in utero is really fatal or if there's a surgical correction that could be done to save the baby's life, so why terminate? Give the little bugger a chance.

If mom's life is in danger and the fetus is past 20 weeks, usually they'll try to get to 23-24 weeks (viability), then induce labor to give mom and baby a chance. If that's not possible, pretty much everyone agrees to favor the mom's life.

NicoleSahara · March 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:5fafe26e-77ba-43ed-96f1-902f8cf6a067">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]On the other side of it though - if they know the baby will not survive, they can't terminate? I just don't like that. It's hard enough to know you're losing your baby anyway, I can't imagine having to have to carry it to term only for it to fucking die. FFS.
Posted by AllAboutTheBenjamin[/QUOTE]

Doctors told my mom my brother wouldn't make it past a couple months, and we're celebrating his 19th birthday next month. In most cases they can't KNOW the baby won't survive. Also I don't know what kind of tests can be done prior to 20 weeks to determine that, is it possible that they could tell that before 20 weeks (like in bay's example)?

AllAboutTheBenjamin · March 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:1bd146c0-6ebf-4909-a4ef-7e0bafa9d106">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate : Doctors told my mom my brother wouldn't make it past a couple months, and we're celebrating his 19th birthday next month. In most cases they can't KNOW the baby won't survive. Also I don't know what kind of tests can be done prior to 20 weeks to determine that, is it possible that they could tell that before 20 weeks (like in bay's example)?
Posted by NicoleSahara[/QUOTE]

What I don't like about it is that lawmakers in a stuffy capitol building are taking it upon themselves to come between women and their doctors. If I were pregnant, I'd want to take medical advice from my fucking doctor, not some douche in a suit talking about how it's done down on the fucking farm. If my doctor deems that my fetus might not survive its birth, it should be MY business and my husband's and doctor's business to continue or terminate the pregnancy. No one else's.

chelseamb11 · March 2012

Yeah if the fetus is dead, it's a D&C not an abortion.

And there's no way doctors can ever guarantee a baby will not survive X amount of time.

ETA So I feel like the baby should be given a chance unless the mother's life is in immediate danger.

AllAboutTheBenjamin · March 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:3c2ca955-e394-4b23-a832-1301f77c8afd">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]Yeah if the fetus is dead, it's a D&C not an abortion. And <strong>there's no way doctors can ever guarantee a baby will not survive X amount of time.</strong>
Posted by chelseamb11[/QUOTE]

Really, <strong>no </strong>way, <strong>ever? </strong>I can concede that they might not always be right but that does not mean that they are never right.

chelseamb11 · March 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:f9081098-51e1-42ae-9c54-0b4a8bff8290">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate : Really, no way, ever? I can concede that they might not always be right but that does not mean that they are never right.
Posted by AllAboutTheBenjamin[/QUOTE]

Well yeah.. I'm ot saying they're never right because sometimes they are, but especially based on stuff that they find out in the womb, I feel like there's never any guarantees a baby will die. There could always potentially find a solution to whatever is going on.

AllAboutTheBenjamin · March 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:3f627d42-28a7-47c7-b6b1-4b590f53e41b">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate : Well yeah.. I'm ot saying they're never right because sometimes they are, but especially based on stuff that they find out in the womb, I feel like there's never any guarantees a baby will die. There could always potentially find a solution to whatever is going on.
Posted by chelseamb11[/QUOTE]

I'd much rather hear that from my doctor than a lawmaker.

NicoleSahara · March 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:fc31ebc7-51cf-44cc-b8cf-d68635008594">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate : What I don't like about it is that lawmakers in a stuffy capitol building are taking it upon themselves to come between women and their doctors. If I were pregnant, I'd want to take medical advice from my fucking doctor, not some douche in a suit talking about how it's done down on the fucking farm. If my doctor deems that my fetus might not survive its birth, it should be MY business and my husband's and doctor's business to continue or terminate the pregnancy. No one else's.
Posted by AllAboutTheBenjamin[/QUOTE]

But they make laws on all kinds of things that might not personally affect them, don't they? I agree the whole farm animal comparison was just stupid and irrelevant. But as far as it being YOUR business, I can see this same argument for someone who found out their spouse cheated on them saying 'I can beat my wife because she cheated, this is OUR business and you can't interfere because you haven't been there.' Just an example, but you can apply that argument to a lot of situations.

AllAboutTheBenjamin · March 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:256a70ac-1b97-4dd5-b296-f3240f19dd88">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate : <strong>But they make laws on all kinds of things that might not personally affect them, don't they?</strong> I agree the whole farm animal comparison was just stupid and irrelevant. But as far as it being YOUR business, I can see this same argument for someone who found out their spouse cheated on them saying 'I can beat my wife because she cheated, this is OUR business and you can't interfere because you haven't been there.' Just an example, but you can apply that argument to a lot of situations.
Posted by NicoleSahara[/QUOTE]

So that makes it okay? FFS.

And also comparing domestic violence to medical decisions between doctor and patient is absurd.

Amt2109 · March 2012

What is with all the crazy scary legislation recently? Personhood, Drs protection, now this... taking women back to the dark ages much?

I agree with AATB... don't come between me and my Dr. Women fought for many years - and are still fighting - for equal rights. All of that is for nothing if they can put through legislation saying that we're nothing.

NicoleSahara · March 2012

Well what do you want them to do AATB, just not make laws unless they're personally involved? That can't work. And I wasn't comparing domestic violence to medical decisions, I'm saying using the argument "You can't tell me what to do because you don't know my situation" can apply to both.

maratea · March 2012

Men should not be making laws about uterine goings-on. I wouldn't make laws about their (probably tiny) diicks. *points to sig*

AllAboutTheBenjamin · March 2012

Nicole, tell me how making a law prohibiting doctors from aborting fetuses with fatal conditions is really a better situation for a woman. I'd love to know. A lawmaker over a doctor that is familiar with your pregnancy, medical history, etc. Tell me you're okay with that. ETA - because by some stroke of fate or luck the fetus *might* live.

RupertPenny · March 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:fb18328b-0ce0-421f-b693-a4aadb3a2a0b">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]Well what do you want them to do AATB, just not make laws unless they're personally involved? That can't work. And I wasn't comparing domestic violence to medical decisions, I'm saying using the argument "You can't tell me what to do because you don't know my situation" can apply to both.
Posted by NicoleSahara[/QUOTE]

<div>It is ridiculous to expect lawmakers to not make laws on things that don't personally affect them, but I don't think it's absurd to expect them to only make laws on things that fall under their jurisdiction constitutionally. As of now, because of Roe v. Wade people have a Constitutional right to privacy and most of these types of laws work to undermine that right. If another case ever goes to the Supreme Court and they rule to overturn Roe v. Wade then fine, legislate the crap out of it. But for now I'd say it's none of their business. </div>

Celles · March 2012

It's not better for women... but it is better for the fetus if you happen to believe that the fetus has an independent right to life, so I understand the murky moral waters for someone who feels that life begins with conception and deserves a chance to continue until the moment of natural death.

That said, I think the comparison to DV is about as offensive as the original comparison to farm animals.

maratea · March 2012

I want to know why there is such a huge hubbub over women's reproductive organs and rights yet no one gives a rats ass about diicks and sperm. I want people to start making laws about what men can and can't do with their jizz.

NicoleSahara · March 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:bdf86d70-b583-4e8f-b9fb-d00363234d33">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]Nicole, tell me how making a law prohibiting doctors from aborting fetuses with fatal conditions is really a better situation for a woman. I'd love to know. A lawmaker over a doctor that is familiar with your pregnancy, medical history, etc. Tell me you're okay with that. ETA - because by some stroke of fate or luck the fetus *might* live.
Posted by AllAboutTheBenjamin[/QUOTE]

Like I asked before, can you identify those fatal conditions before 20 weeks or not? If so then I don't see what the big deal is about this. I'd really like to read the actual bill too, does it say under no circumstances you can ever abort after 20 weeks? That the mom has to give up her life if that's what it comes to? I doubt it.

jemmini6 · March 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:fd07ac3d-4d1c-4f81-bef6-f8c348ac0b2f">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]I want to know why there is such a huge hubbub over women's reproductive organs and rights yet no one gives a rats ass about diicks and sperm. I want people to start making laws about what men can and can't do with their jizz.
Posted by maratea[/QUOTE]

Seriously. Lets say that any man that skips a child support payment is to be castrated. I wonder how this asshole would like that assessment. I mean...they castrate bulls on farms too, so he should be well accustomed to it and all...

AllAboutTheBenjamin · March 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:fd07ac3d-4d1c-4f81-bef6-f8c348ac0b2f">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]I want to know why there is such a huge hubbub over women's reproductive organs and rights yet no one gives a rats ass about diicks and sperm. I want people to start making laws about what men can and can't do with their jizz.
Posted by maratea[/QUOTE]

We should totes outlaw vasectomies.

Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate

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