Prenup or no prenup?

MuppetFan · May 2013

In Response to Re:Prenup or no prenup?:
[QUOTE]Muppet, yes, that is one reason to do so. Without a prenup, if one person makes considerably more than the other, the spouse that makes more can end up making alimony payments to the other in order to keep the spouse that earns less from a drastic lifestyle change. Sometimes these payments are only for a set amount of time, other times they can last a lifetime unless the other spouse remarries. And as someone else pointed out, they can also be used to cover future assets like inheritance, even without divorce. For example, in my state, all assets gained after the marriage are automatically joint assets unless otherwise stated in a prenup. This means if H inherits property from a relative, even jointly with his siblings and without my name on it, I can personally be named in a lawsuit from an accident on said property. Likewise, a lawsuit or debt collection against ME can seize that property as part of a settlement. Another example, this one on a federal level: If I had a kid from a prior relationship, and the child's father passed and left money in his life insurance to me to help support the child, H's student loan payments could be adjusted to include that income, even though that money has nothing to do with him and was explicitly intended to pay for the child's needs. Unless the money is specifically willed to and set up in a trust with the child's name on it, it's H's as well as mine. A prenup can protect against scenarios like that, even if we are still married. Now, as I said, we don't have one as nether of these scenarios are likely, but the idea that prenups are only for divorce is a Hollywood myth that is entirely untrue.
Posted by StageManager14[/QUOTE]

Interesting. This just made me look up laws on inheiritance. I thought inheirted property was protected but by your response and a pp it made me realize it's most likely to vary by state. In NH and CT, all property is considered marrital property. In MA, it appears that how much the inheirited property was woven into the marriage (as opposed to remaining in a separate account, untouched) and also considers "need'.

This is contrary to what I knew about a family member's circumstances where her inheirited property was protected but I'm not sure what state she was living in when her divorce occurred (some states protect it).

So yeah, something else to consider for people. Interesting what you learn in a day's time.

As for us, the only real inheirited property to consider would be his mother's which I think is probably under $30k. If we divorced, I wouldn't ask for it. He'd need it to start over.

nextrightthing · May 2013

Again, it isn't just about divorce. That being said, no one plans on getting divorced, but it happens a LOT. When couples do divorce, my experience is that pretty much everyone tries to take all they can and it can be very, very, very expensive and painful for everyone. Unfortunately, sometimes the pre-nups themselves get litigated for so long that it costs almost as much or more as a contested divorce without a pre-nup would. If you are going to get one, I think it is really important to find an attorney who not only does family law but has drafted and litigated pre-nups.

nextrightthing · May 2013

Texas is a community property state and inheritances are usually still separate property I think. Like you said, I think it does vary a lot by state.

MuppetFan · May 2013

In Response to Re:Prenup or no prenup?:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Prenup or no prenup? : Pre-nups =/= divorce. There are many reasons to have a pre-nup that do not involve divorce. Now you might not have any of the good non-divorce reasons to have a pre-nup but it's insulting to say "we didn't get one because we don't believe in divorce". Like somehow those who do get one believe in divorce. Forget that the reason for the pre-nup are not divorce related.
Posted by lyndausvi[/QUOTE]

I read their compliments simply as their participation in this thread providing their perspective. I don't think they are intending it as a value judgement against people who aren't Catholic.

wittykitty14 · May 2013

In Response to Re:Prenup or no prenup?:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Prenup or no prenup? : Pre-nups =/= divorce. There are many reasons to have a pre-nup that do not involve divorce. Now you might not have any of the good non-divorce reasons to have a pre-nup but it's insulting to say "we didn't get one because we don't believe in divorce". Like somehow those who do get one believe in divorce. Forget that the reason for the pre-nup are not divorce related.
Posted by lyndausvi[/QUOTE]

You make perfect sense. I agree with everything you've said, but still stand by what I said. When I wrote that I would have worded things differently, the part I would have changed was the "divorce is not an option" part. Of course it's an option, I know that. And obviously, no one gets married expecting to end in divorce (I would hope). I'm well aware that divorce is a reality. I am also well aware that prenups aren't all about divorces. I get it. I agreed with someone else's opinions, but I still have my own that can be separate from said person.

I don't judge anyone who wants a prenup. It's none of my business. I just personally don't want one, for many reasons. No one is wrong to get one, and no one is wrong to not get one. As long as the couple agrees, that's the only part that really matters.

wittykitty14 · May 2013

In Response to Re:Prenup or no prenup?:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Prenup or no prenup? : But that's exactly how it comes across. Saying "We don't have a prenup because divorce isn't an option for us" implies that you take your vows more seriously than someone who has a prenup that discusses divorce.
Posted by HoorayForSoup[/QUOTE]

I won't speak for anyone else, but that's definitely not what I believe, or intended to convey. I could see where it could be interpreted that way though.

MuppetFan · May 2013

In Response to Re:Prenup or no prenup?:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Prenup or no prenup? : But that's exactly how it comes across. Saying "We don't have a prenup because divorce isn't an option for us" implies that you take your vows more seriously than someone who has a prenup that discusses divorce.
Posted by HoorayForSoup[/QUOTE]

I understand how it can be read that way too. I am saying that I didn't read it as having that negative intent against others.

My dad's family is very Catholic. I'm used to hearing comments like this, but at least with my family, they are talking about themselves and their own committment to their faith and not making a comment about my lack of it.

MuppetFan · May 2013

In Response to Re: Prenup or no prenup?:
[QUOTE]I have no problem with someone not "believing" in divorce. I have a problem with them phrasing it in a way that implies they are somehow superior to those who "do believe" in divorce, as if they are somehow more committed to their marriage because of it. And I take GREAT offense to statements that can cause personal pain or shame to other women (who may well be on this board) who held similar beliefs and ended up divorced anyway due to circumstances outside their control. I also find it very funny that when a "political" belief is stated that upsets someone based on their religion, Muppet is all for protecting the upset party. But when someone makes a "religious" statement that is not only offensive, but also possibly very hurtful, to what appears to be the majority of the posters on this thread, Muppet believes they are just "participating".
Posted by StageManager14[/QUOTE]

I'm not protecting anyone. I simply do not share your perspective based on how I read it.

BostonGIrl4732 · May 2013

We are not getting one for a few reasons.

Neither of us own a home. We each own our own cars, but they aren't worth a whole lot. Neither of us has a significant savings account. We're just starting out really. There are no children to worry about. Neither of us manage money for our parents.

I make slightly more than my FI. In the future however, he may make more. In MA, it's up to the judge to honor the pre-nup. They don't have to.

We just decided that to us it wasn't worth it. We aren't really protecting anything and anything that we might try to protect (MA has shitty divorce laws in some cases - especially regarding alimony) could be overruled by a judge.

If FI really wanted one, I'd probably be on board with it as long as it was discussed in advance (so if he asks for one a week before the wedding, no go).

lyndausvi · May 2013

In Response to Re: Prenup or no prenup?:
[QUOTE]I have no problem with someone not "believing" in divorce. I have a problem with them phrasing it in a way that implies they are somehow superior to those who "do believe" in divorce, as if they are somehow more committed to their marriage because of it. And I take GREAT offense to statements that can cause personal pain or shame to other women (who may well be on this board) who held similar beliefs and ended up divorced anyway due to circumstances outside their control. I also find it very funny that when a "political" belief is stated that upsets someone based on their religion, Muppet is all for protecting the upset party. But when someone makes a "religious" statement that is not only offensive, but also possibly very hurtful, to what appears to be the majority of the posters on this thread, Muppet believes they are just "participating".
Posted by StageManager14[/QUOTE]

This.

And back to the point that is completely irrelevant if you believe in divorce or not. Pre-nups are so much more than that. While you might not believe in divorce you will die. Pre-nups can protect your assests in those cases also.

.

MuppetFan · May 2013

In Response to Re: Prenup or no prenup?:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Prenup or no prenup? : Exactly, because in this case, your bias is toward the person who is acting offensively. That was my point, and one you backed up yourself with your last post about how you were used to hearing this sort of thing and automatically assumed that it wasn't intended to be offensive or an attack.
Posted by StageManager14[/QUOTE]

I have no bias to any specific person and yes, my interaction with the Catholic portion of my family and their beliefs and thoughts gives me a perspective that varies from yours when I read that statement.

*IF* her intent was to shame others who believe that divorce is an option, then I agree with everything that you are saying. I do not believe that was the intended message.

MuppetFan · May 2013

In Response to Re:Prenup or no prenup?:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Prenup or no prenup? : Yeah I just don't buy that. Just because your opinion is derived from faith does not excuse you from the common courtesy of thinking about how your comment will be received before voicing it.
Posted by HoorayForSoup[/QUOTE]

I agree, for sure. While I personally didn't read it offensively, when others responded to her negatively, she clarified her position further about being about she and her husband.

It becomes a matter of whether people take all of what she says into account or just the first statement which I guess is up to the person reading to decide for themselves.

lyndausvi · May 2013

Honestly when I see the comment "we don't believe in divorce that is why we are not getting a pre-nup" I think the person is just ignorant.

(1) There are many non-divorce reasons to get a pre-nup. So believing or not believing in divorce is irrelevant as your pre-nup can have NOTHING to do with divorce.

(2) Whether or not you choose to exercise the option or not, divorce is actually a legal option here in the US.

MuppetFan · May 2013

In Response to Re: Prenup or no prenup?:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Prenup or no prenup? : 1. You may need to look up bias. You DO have a bias becaue of your interaction with your Catholic family. I have a bias due to my mother being suicidal for 6 months after a divorce was forced on her because of her shame. Biases are what CREATE different perspectives. 2. You keep saying "her". There are multiple posters expressing said offensive sentiment. This isn't about one poster, it's about expressing an idea that is offensive. 3. As Hooray pointed out, it's not about their beliefs. It's about the social responsibility to realize how your words may affect others and take that into account before you say something. If you realize it is offensive, but then choose to say it anyway, fine. That's your Constitutional right. But own it, don't act like there is something wrong with the other 90% of the group because they find your statement distasteful.
Posted by StageManager14[/QUOTE]

I said I don't have a bias to any specific person.

There's only one person who's comments have been disagreed with.

Again, I don't think anything was intended to be offensive, and when responses showed that it did come across that way, additional comments were provided for clairification.

MuppetFan · May 2013

In Response to Re: Prenup or no prenup?:
[QUOTE]Honestly when I see the comment "we don't believe in divorce that is why we are not getting a pre-nup" I think the person is just ignorant. (1) There are many non-divorce reasons to get a pre-nup. So believing or not believing in divorce is irrelevant as your pre-nup can have NOTHING to do with divorce. (2) Whether or not you choose to exercise the option or not, divorce is actually a legal option here in the US.
Posted by lyndausvi[/QUOTE]

Sure thing, and any consequences invidivudals face as a result of not participating in a pre-nup are theirs to absorb at that point.

I think I said this earlier, but I think people are adults, they are aware of options, they make a conscious effort to not participate, and like anyone else who makes that choice, they may have a negative experience later on as a result.

MuppetFan · May 2013

Sure, my bias with the language that my family uses about the rules of Catholicism causes me to read the initial statement differently than you do. I completely disagree with it, but I understand it.

Hmm, I thought the other posts were carefully phrased as not to get the same reaction as the first.

lyndausvi · May 2013

In Response to Re: Prenup or no prenup?:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Prenup or no prenup? : Sure thing, and any consequences invidivudals face as a result of not participating in a pre-nup are theirs to absorb at that point. I think I said this earlier, but I think people are adults, they are aware of options, they make a conscious effort to not participate, and like anyone else who makes that choice, they may have a negative experience later on as a result.
Posted by MuppetFan[/QUOTE]

Actually this post proves to me people do not know their options or they wouldn't say things like "we don't believe in divorce so we are not getting one". Becausee once again, pre-nups can have nothing to do with divorce.

Also TX did admit it's was an option if her safety was a stake. So while it's something of last resort where her saftey is at stake, it's still indeed an option.

MuppetFan · May 2013

In Response to Re: Prenup or no prenup?:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Prenup or no prenup? : Actually this post proves to me people do not know their options or they wouldn't say things like "we don't believe in divorce so we are not getting one". Becausee once again, pre-nups can have nothing to do with divorce. Also TX did admit it's was an option if her safety was a stake. So while it's something of last resort where her saftey is at stake, it's still indeed an option.
Posted by lyndausvi[/QUOTE]

When using the word "believe" they don't mean that they are uneducated about it being a legal option. They are applying to the parameters of marriage within their faith.

However, I wondered whether prenups are allowed in the Catholic faith so I've been googling. I came up with this article in the Catholic Times that concurrs with your statement about them not having anything to do with divorce in some cases:

http://ct.dio.org/comment-and-dialogue/question-corner/catholics-and-prenuptial-agreements-are-they-allowed.html

So the response says that the church doesn't have a blanket statement against prenups, but I wanted to quote some interesting distinctions:

"When a widow marries a widower, for example, and they both have children from their previous marriages, a prenup is a legitimate way of determining what is common property and what is separate as a basis for determining the inheritance rights of each spouse's children.

In most cases, though, prenups are a bad idea and may even call into question the validity of the marriage itself"

I'm trying to find some supports regarding the faith about a first marriage for both parties and I'm not really finding that.

KDM323 · May 2013

We may get/have a prenup. Not because we have any intention of ever divorcing...but mostly for the protections that one would offer, financially, during the course of our marriage. (Not even a divorce aspect...I sure hope we never even have to consider divorce!)

lyndausvi · May 2013

In Response to Re:Prenup or no prenup?:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Prenup or no prenup? : So, you're saying that I shouldn't have answered the question honestly? Apparently tolerance is okay as long as the other person's views are consistent with your own. ETA: Also, unless I missed something, Muppet is the only one here who has been divorced before. If anyone were to be offended by what I believe, I would expect it to be her.
Posted by TXKristan[/QUOTE]

I think "We didn't get a pre-nup because we didn't feel it was necessary and it goes against our believes" would have been a better response than calling out you do not believe in divorce as a reason for not getting pre-nup. Because for the billionth time pre-nups often have NOTHING to do with divorce.

MissMolly · May 2013

Yeah, I thought it was weird and really, really unfair, which I stated to my lawyer (he's been my lawyer since 2001, when I started a graphics business). He agreed, and said that the laws here are unfair, but that's unfortunately the way it works.

In Response to Re: Prenup or no prenup?:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Prenup or no prenup? : That's weird. I would think it would still be a 50/50 split. My parents were each legally entitled to half the house money when they sold it in the process of their divorce, even though my dad made significantly more than my mother and she had been a SAHM when I was little. I'd also think he wouldn't be entitled to half of it just from moving in, unless you were somehow able to register as common-law immediately. Obviously your lawyer would actually know the situation, but it seems very strange. As for prenups, FI and I aren't getting one but that's because we are both young enough to have no assets and the only debt we'll owe anybody is my OSAP loan, more than 90% of which is still sitting in the bank after my BA.
Posted by Anastasia517[/QUOTE]

MissMolly · May 2013

Really? So, what happens in really extreme circumstances (mistress, you guys just fall out of love, abuse, etc.)? Would you really stay in an unhappy marriage, and teach your children (if you have them, or choose to have them in the future) that it's a-okay to remain in an unhappy relationship? Don't get me wrong, I'm not entering into marriage, already thinking about divorce, but things happen, people can change and do really unforgivable things. Divorce would suck, but it's better than staying and being miserable.

In Response to Re:Prenup or no prenup?:
[QUOTE]When DH and I got married, we agreed that divorce was not an option. So, no pre nup for us.
Posted by TXKristan[/QUOTE]

MuppetFan · May 2013

In Response to Re: Prenup or no prenup?:
[QUOTE]Lynda, I'm honestly trying to think back to our marriage prep with our deacon and our sponsor couple. If it had come up in our marriage prep that we had made a prenuptial agreement, our deacon would have talked with us more about it. If it was a pre-nup in the sense of "in the event of divorce ... ", there would have been red flags. I honestly don't know if the deacon would have been able to say in good conscience that a couple was entering into a sacramentally valid marriage if they had the type of pre-nup where it discusses $$ in the event of divorce. During our FOCCUS inventory ( http://www.foccusinc.com/foccus-inventory-sample-questions.aspx ), we had several questions that dealt with Marriage as a Covenant (one of the categories for discussion). The way Catholics view covenant is this - you enter it 100% and without conditions. If a couple showed signs of not honestly entereing into a covenant 100% without conditions, there would be mroe counseling and discussion to understand why the idea of a pre-nup is problematic when entering into a covenant. I know priests who have said to a couple that they cannot, in good faith, witness the marriage due to existing circumstances between the couple (not necessarily a pre-nup). I wouldn't be surprised if the same was said to a couple if they were adamant about having a pre-nup that states what happens financially if the couple divorces.
Posted by TXKristan[/QUOTE]

Kristan, to Lynda's point, what about circumstances where there is a prenup that isn't about divorce? What would your priest say to that do you think?

lyndausvi · May 2013

Kristin I'm behind you using divorce as means of last resort. I'm with you not getting a pre-nup because of you believe system.

However, there is a stigma that pre-nups are for planning divorces. While that is sometimes the case, it's not always the case. There are legit non-divorce reasons to get a pre-nup. By saying "we did not get one because divorce is not an option" only continues the cycle that pre-nups are for planning divorce.

MuppetFan · May 2013

In Response to Re: Prenup or no prenup?:
[QUOTE]Kristin I'm behind you using divorce as means of last resort. I'm with you not getting a pre-nup because of you believe system. However, there is a stigma that pre-nups are for planning divorces. While that is sometimes the case, it's not always the case. There are legit non-divorce reasons to get a pre-nup. By saying "we did not get one because divorce is not an option" only continues the cycle that pre-nups are for planning divorce.
Posted by lyndausvi[/QUOTE]

I honestly didn't know that (or consider that) before today. So I appreciate you making that comment which caused me to look into it today.

I've learned multiple things today from TK.

MissMolly · May 2013

No, falling out of love isn't nearly as extreme as abuse or infidelity, but it would still be a really hard hit for a marriage. Staying in a loveless marriage isn't something that I would want to do, as it would undermine my own self-worth. For the record though, I didn't suggest that you and your DH fell out of love.

As for gravity making me do something outside of my control, well, gravity doesn't really affect any relationship. The only thing is affects on me on a normal, everyday basis, is if I trip and fall.

Love is definitely a conscious decision, no matter what your religion, upbringing, etc. I don't pray for the grace to forgive, but I hope for it, should extenuating circumstances happen. If FH cheats once, yes, that could probably be forgiven. If it's something that happens over and over again, resulting in children, no, to me, that would be unforgivable. I couldn't stay with someone like that because I love and respect myself, and if I stayed, that self- love and -respect would go down the drain. I've been suicidal before, and don't wish to go back to that place.

OTOH, I really do think it's wonderful that you have known people who have worked through infidelity, found that deep love once again, and have been able to forgive the other person.

I also understand where you were coming from in some of your other posts (I really should've read them all before replying, but your initial one shocked me to no end).

In Response to Re:Prenup or no prenup?:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Prenup or no prenup? : Alesha, "you guys just fall out of love" isn't really an extreme circumstance. For the record, I didn't fall in love with my husband. I choose each day to love him. Falling implies that an outside force (i.e. gravity) makes you do something outside of your control. Love is a conscious decision. And, I pray for the grace to forgive. As a Christian, I believe that if Jesus can hang on a cross and forgive the people who did that to Him, then I can forgive others. And, yes- I have been cheated on in a past relationship. For the record, the breakup wasn't just about the infedelity (there was more to it than that). But I did forgive him. So, there is no such thing as an unforgiveable act, IMO. I know couples who have worked through infedelity. I have said before that I would not stay in a marriage where my physical safety was at risk. My husband and I entered into our marriage covenant with the deliberate agreement that divorce was not an option we would entertain at all. That is why we did not enter into the "traditional" pre-nup that stipulates what happens in the event of divorce.
Posted by TXKristan[/QUOTE]

RamonaFlowers · May 2013

I didn't get one, DH and I went into the marriage with our only assets being a couple of decadeold Hyundais, and the condo that we purchase together...so to us, it seemed unnecessary. Had one or both of us had actual assets or a child from a previous relationship or something, we would have been open to the idea.

As for the "divorce is not an option" mentality, like PP said, most people don't go into a marriage thinking that it's not going to last. There was a regular poster back before everybody went to proboards that talked constantly about how divorce was SO not an option that her FI even suggested they sign a covenant marriage agreement (a contract that legally prevents you from filing for a divorce for any reason for at least 2 years after the wedding). Which they did. A bunch of people rolled their eyes at her for being so obnoxious and "superior" about it, but she still maintained "divorce will NEVER be an option for us".

A few months after the wedding, they're on their HM, and the husband just drops it on her that he's "done" being married. Now she's not only eating her words, but she's stuck waiting around for that 2 years to be up that HE suggested they sign up for in the first place because they legally can't file for divorce yet.

Again, nobody THINKS it can happen to them. But it's completely foolish to just say "divorce is not an option for us". Nobody can be 100% certain about that.

MuppetFan · May 2013

this post time warped.

lyndausvi · May 2013

we were up to 91 posts before the switch.

lyndausvi · May 2013

@romona

TXKristan said:

lyndausvi said:

we were up to 91 posts before the switch.

I think the whole thread is back ... is it?

it is now. Not when I wrote that though.

Prenup or no prenup?

Re: Prenup or no prenup?

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