To walk or not to walk

s-aries8990 · June 2013

I was enraged when I heard a group of freshman had their parents call to complain to their professor that they were getting too much homework (was it more than other classes, yes. was it more than other colleges give for an equivalent class? no.)

Pissin' me off.

MrsMack10612 · June 2013

I agree with PPs about the over involvement of parents. When I was in HS, my schoolwork was my responsibility, not my mother's. I was expected to perform to the best of my ability. My grades reflected how much or how little work I did.

Yes, my jr. year chem teacher was not a great teacher, do I completely blame him for the fact that I failed? Absolutely not. His poor teaching skills and me not reaching out for the help I needed. I would have been mortified if my mother had gotten involved in that way.

I didn't go to "real" college, I got my business certificate. I got good grades and made the Dean's List, but if I had been failing I certainly wouldn't have expected my mom to fight the battle for me. It was on me to do the work or seek out extra help.

This country would be in a lot better shape if we stopped coddling kids and got rid of the everybody gets a trophy mentality.

manateehugger · June 2013

runpipparun said:

LingerLonger1 said:

Sure some people aren't, and I agree we jump to character flaws too quickly overall. However, the numerous context clues in this thread tell me that's not the case here. This girl actually is lazy and just couldn't be bothered to pass her class, and maybe her parents were lazy too, but I have a serious problem with that accusation. She's about to graduate and it sounds like it was a class she took this year that she failed. That means she's 17 - 19 at the time she took this class, which makes her, for all intents and purposes, an adult. It's not their job to make sure she passes (I'm sure that will get me flamed).

That's funny. I've got a friend who works in college administration who informs me that he spends half his day on the phone with parents of freshman asking about their children's schedules and whether their children are passing their classes. We are infantilizing our collegiate youth. I can't imagine these young adults will ever be personally responsible. I'm glad I went to a university that protected my privacy and told parents to eff off.

Holy crap, this! I was an intern in my university's student affairs office for 3 years. I cannot tell you the number of parents who call to ask about grades, complain about their student's roommates, say their student's professor is mean, blah blah blah. The worst one we ever had was when a parent chewed me and then my boss out for temporarily suspending his son: he had been selling cocaine out of his dorm room. Yeah. That's when I thank God for FERPA. My standard response got to be "I'm sorry, federal law does not permit me to give you that information. You'll have to ask your child about it."

It is insane the number of parents who refuse to let their children to become functioning adults.

Vintagelove4 · June 2013

You don't pass, you don't graduate.

Though at my high school, if you where very close to graduating ,like say the next semester, they would let you walk with your class. They just wouldn't hand you a diploma. Which I thought was nice because they got to walk with their class and just picked up the diploma from the office when they really graduated.

MrsMack10612 · June 2013

@lilyrose4242 - That's just the problem. The school has a no pass/no graduate, no walk policy (so far as I can tell). What your HS did was reward bad behavior. The definition of everybody gets a trophy.

By letting people walk without benefit of passing, what are they learning? That well, even if I don't really do the work, I still get the benefits. Not how life really works.

Vintagelove4 · June 2013

@kjhowd No usually it was for kids that had messed up and now where trying to fix it. You couldn't walk if you where missing more then two classes, had to apply for it and do an interview with the school staff for it. So it wasn't an everyone gets a trophy deal.

Vintagelove4 · June 2013

@LingerLonger1 English isn't my first language so I'm not great at the grammar and spelling.

But thanks for the pointers.

Vintagelove4 · June 2013

@LingerLonger1 English isn't my first language so I'm not great at the grammar and spelling.

But thanks for the pointers.

MrsMack10612 · June 2013

Lilyrose4242 said:

@kjhowd No usually it was for kids that had messed up and now where trying to fix it. You couldn't walk if you where missing more then two classes, had to apply for it and do an interview with the school staff for it. So it wasn't an everyone gets a trophy deal.

@lilyrose4242 - and tell me how this makes it any better? If they messed up are trying to fix it, great. But they messed up, they need to face the consequences of their action (or inaction) and that means not getting to walk with their class.

I had several friends in HS who were what we called Super Seniors. They failed classes in their senior year, that means they had to do it all over again. They didn't get to walk, they didn't get to graduate.

Vintagelove4 · June 2013

@kjhowd Yes, we had Super Seniors too. Like I said before, it was more for a selective group.

winelover123 · June 2013

Some of my classmates in college had their parents call professors with any problems they had. I'd be humiliated if my mom ever did that. She only came to my college once to write a check because they wouldn't accept it from me. My department was really fucked up, but I was the one who dealt with it. Not my mommy and daddy. If the girl didn't pass the class, she doesn't get to graduate. I can't stand the idea of pressuring a school to let a student graduate when they couldn't pass a class.

Many parents are delusional and really think it's the teacher's fault. I know a high schooler who write awful papers. She's a junior now I think and barely scraped by English. The parents blamed the teacher, saying that she didn't like her because she's pretty and etc. Maybe the teacher didn't like the girl, but the truth was that she just couldn't write. I think parents have problems accepting that their little angels have faults and weaknesses as well as strengths.

MrsMack10612 · June 2013

@Lingerlonger1 - Thanks for the love

I have hated that everybody wins mentality when I first heard the Boy Scouts were doing it with the Pine Car Derby. (I realize some have issues with BSA that go beyond this, just the first time I ever heard about this type of thought process).

BSA was always supposed to teach preparedness, ya know, it's their motto. How the fuck does letting everybody win accomplish that. There is no standard for doing better.

MrsMack10612 · June 2013

Lilyrose4242 said:

@kjhowd Yes, we had Super Seniors too. Like I said before, it was more for a selective group.

@lilyrose424 - You are missing the point. There shouldn't be any selective group. Unless we are talking severely special ed/needs kids; everyone, let me repeat EVERYONE should be held to the same standard. No one should be allowed to win just for participating or being a good kid or whatever other myriad people come up with that their children are special snowflakes.

As for the special needs kids? Depending on their need, sure, they get a different standard, that falls in line with their need. Guess what? If they fail to meet that standards, they should be held just as accountable to their standard as a "normal" student.

ETA: I will be leaving for home soon and away from the interwebz for a bit for any further follow up; but will check back when I can.

arrippa · June 2013

My high school (waaayyyy back, cause I am old) would NOT let a student walk who was one credit short (he went to summer school and graduated after the summer ended). In those days, no one pampered us or gave us "participation" trophies. I am so happy to have grown up in a time where there was no coddling and everyone expected us to get our own stuff done. This was 1995, wow, I am old.

s-aries8990 · June 2013

kjhowd said:

Lilyrose4242 said:

@kjhowd Yes, we had Super Seniors too. Like I said before, it was more for a selective group.

@lilyrose424 - You are missing the point. There shouldn't be any selective group. Unless we are talking severely special ed/needs kids; everyone, let me repeat EVERYONE should be held to the same standard. No one should be allowed to win just for participating or being a good kid or whatever other myriad people come up with that their children are special snowflakes.

As for the special needs kids? Depending on their need, sure, they get a different standard, that falls in line with their need. Guess what? If they fail to meet that standards, they should be held just as accountable to their standard as a "normal" student.

ETA: I will be leaving for home soon and away from the interwebz for a bit for any further follow up; but will check back when I can.

I completely agree. They have benchmarks for many types of disabilities AND this is also a reason why one-on-one interaction with a para-professional is SOO important. They get to know the students very well and can tell when the student is or isn't putting in their best effort and performing to the best of their abilities and capabilities.

ETA: and being held to a different standard shouldn't necessarily equal getting a diploma.

misshart00 · June 2013

This makes me very happy my parents were "tough" on me. If I complained about a class in high school, my mom would ask me what I was doing to bring my grade up, or ask me how hard I was studying. She never blamed the professor because I couldn't or wouldn't do the work. One class I was really struggling in and she pointed out that my teacher had tutoring sessions before and after school. It was up to me to decide how my grade turned out.

In college, I really think I had a professor that gave me an undeserved grade (but I'm very thankful for it). We had 4 tests and a paper. I failed 3 of the tests because I just plain didn't get it, but I was really trying. At the end of my semester, I checked grades and had a C-. I think he only gave me that grade because he knew how hard I was trying and I showed up to class every single day.

HobokensFury · June 2013

As a teacher shit like this pisses me the fuck off. She had 10 months to pass. 6 points is not even remotely close.

allychase · June 2013

That girls gonna have a RUDE awakening when she gets to college and meets a shit ton of professors who suck at teaching and she faces the awful realization that being able to teach yourself is what gets you through tough times in college.

StephJean83 · June 2013

In my high school the Seniors pick what day they graduate, Saturday or Sunday. I have yet to see a class graduate on Saturday because you will receive an empty folder vs your actual diploma if you graduate on Sunday. If the class picks Saturday everyone could walk vs just those who have officially graduated on Sunday, because we realize that it is an honor to walk across the stage.

My Boohoo poor me story, is that in my junior year, I couldn't wrap my head around the Algebra 2 course that was a requirement. I had requested a specific teacher because I knew I would be able to learn from him but due to other classes I was taking and when he taught I couldn't get into his class. I went to my teacher numerous times asking for help and he would blow me off, so I went to the other teacher who I wanted in the first place, and asked for him to tutor me. I was given a permanent pass to his classroom during my study hall and he would tutor me and teach physics at the same time. Just thinking of that awesome teacher brings tears to my eyes, 3 years ago he was in a tragic accident and lost his life. But I was able to graduate because he took the time, during my study hall, to tutor me, even though he was teaching a different class. I passed Algebra 2 with a B.

WinstonsGirl · June 2013

No pass = no walk. I'll bump kids who are at 48 or 49% to a pass, since I don't think my marking is so perfect that it's accurate for 1-2%, but 6 points?? No way. Suck it up Princess and learn your life lesson

Andplusalso, I'm so sick of the number of kids and parents who think we pick on these kids cos we don't like them. I love teaching and the kids I teach, but I don't care enough to put that much effort into a kid I might not like. I have better things to do with my time that dream up ways to make them miserable. Lots of kids and parents are going to be in for rude awakenings once they reach adulthood and don't have the skills to cope with a negative situation

HobokensFury · June 2013

Well 4 seniors will not be making it across the graduation stage in 2 weeks because of me. I don't feel badly at all.

misssunshine17 · June 2013

Good for your Hoboken. Has there been any backlash on your end?

HobokensFury · June 2013

LingerLonger1 said:

HobokenBride2012 said:

Well 4 seniors will not be making it across the graduation stage in 2 weeks because of me. I don't feel badly at all.

The only problem I have with this statement is the bold. It's not because of you. It's their own damn fault.

You're right it should say because of my class.

HobokensFury · June 2013

misssunshine17 said:

Good for your Hoboken. Has there been any backlash on your end?

Their parents will fight it next week. Numbers don't lie though. I present them with printouts of every single grade from the year and there is nothing they can say. One of them has done 0 homework assignments out of 40 this year.

MrsMack10612 · June 2013

I was having a discussion with a friend about this last night.

Though she agreed with the need for accountability and taking responsibility for ones actions; she also felt that the reason these kids should be allowed to walk is because of the stigma of a very public failure. That this ostricizes kids too much and causes bigger issues.

I don't agree. I figure it's just one more consequence to not fulfilling the requirements to graduate. Certainly I don't want any one ridiculed because of it.

Thoughts?

misshart00 · June 2013

kjhowd said:
I was having a discussion with a friend about this last night.

Though she agreed with the need for accountability and taking responsibility for ones actions; she also felt that the reason these kids should be allowed to walk is because of the stigma of a very public failure. That this ostricizes kids too much and causes bigger issues.

I don't agree. I figure it's just one more consequence to not fulfilling the requirements to graduate. Certainly I don't want any one ridiculed because of it.

Thoughts?

I think sometimes people need embarrassment or something as motivation to change.

If you're always late to your job and you get fired, that may motivate you to do something about being late.

People not wanting kids to be left out is what is causing this problem. That's how participation trophies are won. Sometimes kids need to be told how to do better.

MrsMack10612 · June 2013

@misshart00 - I was thinking the same way. A little public humilation isn't a bad thing. I also completely agree that's why we're in the fix we are.

I truly feel that on a global scale it's why the US is failing so badly in education. We've become ok with mediocrity.

manateehugger · June 2013

LingerLonger1 said: kjhowd said: I was having a discussion with a friend about this last night. Though she agreed with the need for accountability and taking responsibility for ones actions; she also felt that the reason these kids should be allowed to walk is because of the stigma of a very public failure. That this ostricizes kids too much and causes bigger issues. I don't agree. I figure it's just one more consequence to not fulfilling the requirements to graduate. Certainly I don't want any one ridiculed because of it. Thoughts? I agree with you. TBH I think our society doesn't value a little public shaming enough. It's a very good learning tool.

Besides the failure will be no less public if they're allowed to walk. In my class we all knew a long time before graduation who hadn't made the cut. Even handing those kids an empty folder wouldn't have prevented the rest of us in the class from knowing. The only people that would be none the wiser would be the audience, and they would be equally oblivious if the kid just didn't walk.
Completely agree! It's not really ostracizing - they aren't making all the non-graduates stand to the side wearing a "I failed" sign. They are simply not allowing them a privilege that their peers earned.

My favorite high school teacher used to make you keep a tiny stuffed Care Bear on your desk if you failed to turn in an assignment that was due that day. He had written "Shame Bear" on it.

MrsMack10612 · June 2013

@PDKH - I think that's a fabulous idea. But then I'm kind of a bitch like that.

HobokensFury · June 2013

PDKH said:

LingerLonger1 said:

kjhowd said:

I was having a discussion with a friend about this last night.

Though she agreed with the need for accountability and taking responsibility for ones actions; she also felt that the reason these kids should be allowed to walk is because of the stigma of a very public failure. That this ostricizes kids too much and causes bigger issues.

I don't agree. I figure it's just one more consequence to not fulfilling the requirements to graduate. Certainly I don't want any one ridiculed because of it.

Thoughts?

I agree with you. TBH I think our society doesn't value a little public shaming enough. It's a very good learning tool.

Besides the failure will be no less public if they're allowed to walk. In my class we all knew a long time before graduation who hadn't made the cut. Even handing those kids an empty folder wouldn't have prevented the rest of us in the class from knowing. The only people that would be none the wiser would be the audience, and they would be equally oblivious if the kid just didn't walk.

Completely agree! It's not really ostracizing - they aren't making all the non-graduates stand to the side wearing a "I failed" sign. They are simply not allowing them a privilege that their peers earned.

My favorite high school teacher used to make you keep a tiny stuffed Care Bear on your desk if you failed to turn in an assignment that was due that day. He had written "Shame Bear" on it.

That's pretty funny although that wouldn't fly now. Teachers have gotten in trouble for much less.

To walk or not to walk

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