Pre-Marital Counseling and LIving together

EllieAugust · October 2013

My fiance and I currently do not live together. We had planned to move in together shortly before we got married in August 2014. He lives alone and I have a roommate (who is a good friend). My roommate has recently come to me letting me know that she has a great opportunity to move in with friends within the next few months. I think it would be great situation for her and I would hate for her to pass it up.

It will no be possible for me afford to continue to live in a two bedroom apartment by myself until August, and it seems most practical to have my fiancee move in. While not ideal, it really seems like the best situation. It makes me a little nervous to bring this up with my priest when we do start our counseling early next year. Is this something that I should be worried about, or is this really common now and I am just being ridiculous?

agapecarrie · October 2013

Actually, I would encourage you to look into alternatives. There ARE options. They aren't the most convenient, practical, or pleasant, but it will be WAY worth it in the end.

I suggest this blog:

http://jackieandbobby.com/2013/05/28/marriage-a-big-beautiful-inconvenience/

monkeysip · October 2013

I agree with Carrie, but I would talk to your priest about it. He may have other solutions for you (maybe someone in the church rents rooms!), or he *may* okay it with pastoral guidance. Living together before marriage can bring some real challenges, including the issue of scandal, but it's not *intrinsically* wrong, so if there's no other possible solution, your priest may be okay with it. I think it's important just to be open and honest though. Good luck!

EllieAugust · October 2013

Thanks for the advice. I will talk to my priest.

itzMS · October 2013

If you are fully prepared to live like "brother and sister" until your wedding day, I personally see it as a non-issue. You will have separate rooms.

We lived together. Our priest knew this. We were guided to live like brother and sister. We're married now. No ill-effects.

Calypso1977 · October 2013

its not ideal, but if you must do it, do it for as short a time as possible and maintain separate bedrooms. it would therefore make the most sense to keep your two bedroom, assuming your FI lives in a one bedroom.

[Deleted User] · October 2013

We lived together before our wedding as well. Our priest was aware of it and even though it wasn't ideal, we had seperate bedrooms and bathrooms.

muenginerd · October 2013

We do live together and are getting married next year. I know it's not ideal in the eyes of the church but it is what works for us.

In terms of priests, each one is different, but ours didn't mind. He asked for all of our information at our first meeting. When we each gave him the same address he asked if that's for financial reasons. We said yes and he moved on without questioning it any further. Another friend got married younger right after college graduation, and I know their priest was absolutely adament they do not live together before marriage.

agapecarrie · October 2013

Many priests don't know how to express the problems with it, therefore remain silent. This should NOT be taken as "doesn't have a problem with it".

There are some very serious issues with living together before marriage, apart from pre-marital sex. The psychology of what happens when combining households before the commitment and without the grace can have grave consequences, even if not seen or experienced immediately.

agapecarrie · October 2013

I will bet you that I could find anyone at least 2 different options for temporarily living for up to a year's time.

itzMS · October 2013

agapecarrie said:
Many priests don't know how to express the problems with it, therefore remain silent. This should NOT be taken as "doesn't have a problem with it".

There are some very serious issues with living together before marriage, apart from pre-marital sex. The psychology of what happens when combining households before the commitment and without the grace can have grave consequences, even if not seen or experienced immediately.

Just for the sake of discussion, since this appears to be a very serious topic for you. It's also a very relevant topic in today's society.

Did you have a bad experience? If so, couldn't that be attributed to simply marrying the wrong person, not the fact that you lived in the same residence?

Living together does not automatically equal premarital sex and immorality with grave (really?) consequences.

It's always seemed to me that with maturity comes the capability to act morally and responsibly in any situation. The day you get married doesn't magically make you mature or moral.

agapecarrie · October 2013

The gist of your question is whether I had a bad experience: no. Not ME.

I am involved in marriage prep, training to be an advocate for annulments, getting certified in TOB, and have an office on the way to adoration, which means an hourly changing of the guard, in which countless people stop to share their problems with me. So, in some ways, I do have "personal" experience with it. With large numbers of people to pool from.

Yes. GRAVE and serious consequences. I'm not making light of this, and it really really bothers me when people do- or in any way leads others to think its a good idea or even ok.

Catholicwife hit ONE of the issues that is involved. There are many more.

itzMS · November 2013

Sorry, but I think you're being very dramatic. What exactly are these grave consequences? An honest question from someone who lived together as "brother and sister" before marriage and am now quite happily married.

We do not take our vows any less seriously than those who didn't cohabitate.

I just want to know what grave consequences we're in for...

It's concerning to me that you think cohabitation=doom.

Calypso1977 · November 2013

for me, i think i might very well have broken my engagement off and not made a mistake had i not lived together prior to marriage. i definitely felt directly and indirectly the pressure that living together first brought (i.e., where would one or both of us go if we broke off the engagement?). I also had a major weight on my shoulders in the form of a hefty mortgage. something else that would have to be undone if i broke the engagement off.

agapecarrie · November 2013

Why should I bother laying it out here when you've already decided that I'm being "very dramatic". You've already made up your mind.

Doesn't necessarily have something do with taking your vows less seriously (where did that even come from?)

It's concerning to me that you make so light of it to "see it as a non-issue". And I never said "doom"

lalaith50 · November 2013

Agape, I think you're being a little quick to jump to assumptions and as a result it seemingly appears that you are avoiding the question. I've seen you do this before, so I won't be surprised if you still don't answer it, but honestly, I'm a little curious too. This is something I also haven't been able to really answer when challenged by people - I understand the scandal aspect of living together (people will assume that means you're also sleeping together,) and of course the obvious additional temptations, and I guess I have some vague idea of the problem with "acting like you're married" before you actually are, but in my mind it still doesn't add up to some horrible thing with "grave consequences." I would love to be enlightened if you have the time.

agapecarrie · November 2013

Explain how I've jumped to assumptions? What exactly?

I only quoted the phrases that were used on me.

agapecarrie · November 2013

And...at this point, I don't really have the time. Holy day: 8 masses in 3 days, then a trip, then parish mission. Not a good week.

Many nuances are involved. I can list examples... one could easily blow them off (As often happens). But then it grows...like a pebble making circles in the water. Resentment grows, then years down the line, there's lots of bigger issues because people feel used, but don't know why.

Discernment, scandal, temptation, preparation, space for reflection away from each other, daily chores, etc etc etc...WITHOUT the grace of the sacrament puts a great toll on people. Don't have time to go into each one, right now.

And honestly, lalaith, you laying into me in the past is why I didn't continue the discussion. I did not want to engage in such a discussion when I was being treated poorly. NOT because I was trying to avoid the question. (Even though I had actually answered, and it wasn't being read).

Anyway, I gotta run for now.

itzMS · November 2013

When you imply that grave consequences are almost a given, I'd like to know what those grave consequences are. You seem experienced, so I'm looking to learn from those experiences.

Anyone who immediately jumps to the conclusion that living together=immorality is simply uninformed.

I'm 29. I was mature and capable of acting in a moral fashion prior to getting married last year...living together or not. I guess it's just an honest curiousity to learn what grave consequences I'm seemingly doomed to encounter.

One of the main arguments across the board (aside from temptation to sin) is that if you live together, marriage doesn't "change" you. I call baloney on that. Saying those vows to my soon to be husband at the altar changed me. In that moment it didn't matter if I had lived with him or not...

agapecarrie · November 2013

When I get some time, hopefully next week, I'd be glad to revisit the question.

However, you have got to stop twisting my words, or outright putting words in my mouth. What I said was:

(can't find a quote box, so I highlighted...sorry its obnoxious).

The psychology of what happens when combining households before the commitment and without the grace can have grave consequences, even if not seen or experienced immediately.

I did NOT say or imply that grave consequences are a given, NOR did I say it equaled doom, nor did I say living together automatically equaled immorality.

Honestly, now I am a bit hesitant to go into it, because of the way this conversation has gone so far. Some of the immediate issues are very nuanced and grow to some serious things later, depending on circumstances. But anyway, if I get time next week, I'll try to put something together.

lalaith50 · November 2013

And honestly, lalaith, you laying into me in the past is why I didn't continue the discussion. I did not want to engage in such a discussion when I was being treated poorly. NOT because I was trying to avoid the question. (Even though I had actually answered, and it wasn't being read).

Are you for serious, lol?!? I had made ZERO comments in this discussion at the point at which you were called out for not answering the question - You really actually had already made a conscious decision to not answer the question because you thought *I* would give you a hard time?!?

OH. M. G.

FWIW, I'm not some jerk who goes around harrassing random people on the internet for fun - I only "lay into" people when they are avoiding questions, being inconsistent, or saying false things authoritatively. Take that for what you will - sure, I certainly won't disagree I've had reason to "lay into" you several times... hmm....

;-)

agapecarrie · November 2013

I really don't understand your first paragraph.

Lalaith, from the very beginning of that thread, were sarcastic and snarky with me. Immediately, I answered the question and bowed out, saying immediately, I won't continue.

I just won't participate with it. It's apparent in this thread, too.

Not gonna play.

ootmother2 · November 2013

This isn't really one of those "one size fits all" situations". You really have to to judge your own situation and lala certainly lala shouldn't be judged as snooty or sarcastic for expressing another side of this.

I think that I wouldn't have married my now exH had we lived together.. My DD and her H lived together for the three months before their wedding because they had already bought a condo in Boston and it made no sense to leave that empty and pay the mortgage and rent at the same time.

They certainly didn'task for my opinion and they were not asked by their priest or pre cana instructors because it really isn't anyone else's business.

ootmother2 · November 2013

agapecarrie said:

I really don't understand your first paragraph.

Lalaith, from the very beginning of that thread, were sarcastic and snarky with me. Immediately, I answered the question and bowed out, saying immediately, I won't continue.

I just won't participate with it. It's apparent in this thread, too.

Not gonna play.

At this again? sheesh!

lalaith50 · November 2013

I really don't understand your first paragraph.

Lalaith, from the very beginning of that thread, were sarcastic and snarky with me. Immediately, I answered the question and bowed out, saying immediately, I won't continue.

I just won't participate with it. It's apparent in this thread, too.

Not gonna play.

?? From the sentence that I bolded, I can't tell if you are saying *I* was snarky to you, or *everyone* was snarky to you. The point of my previous post was I don't even know why you brought me into it - If you're saying "from the beginning of this post Lalaith was snarky," you are completely and utterly wrong and any reader can tell that. You had made FIVE comments before I made a single one - I had nothing to do with this post for quite some time. And then the very first post that I made, had nothing snarky in it. It contained some genuine questions, and pointed out (in a serious and not snarky way) that I had (and still have) reason to believe you would find excuses to avoid the question (as you've done in the past, even when *I* have had nothing to do with it.)

The point of my previous post was absolute bafflement about why you claimed you decided not to respond based on ME. I hadn't even said a word in this thread when you started to avoid the question! You seem to be claiming that you did actually answer the question and don't understand why people are jumping on you, but people are jumping on you bc you gave a couple of tiny, unsatisfying answers, and then people requested more and/or challenged your vagueness and then you got all huffy. I don't get what your problem is with ME - I have seen PLENTY of people besides myself nicely and not so nicely respond to you and/or point out your inconsistencies (in other previous threads).

If you need people to sugarcoat everything for you or bow down to your every word in order to even have a discussion with you, then maybe the internet isn't the place for you.

agapecarrie · November 2013

No. The very first thing you said to me on this thread was:

Agape, I think you're being a little quick to jump to assumptions and as a result it seemingly appears that you are avoiding the question. I've seen you do this before, so I won't be surprised if you still don't answer it,

So I responded about the past thread where you layed into me.

It's not an honest question, its about taking me down. All the "lols" and "omgs" just takes it off a rational conversation that I don't want to get involved with.

Ugh-- don't have time right now....

NYCBruin · November 2013

I sometimes lurk over here. I am also curious about these "grave" consequences. I think the other members asking this question were genuinely/honestly curious as well. Even if they weren't, it would be helpful @agapecarrie if you would answer the questions for lurkers who actually are curious.

Riss91 · November 2013

I'm sure Carrie has a better response, but I have a few thoughts on the "consequences" idea.

- All sins leave a mark on our soul, even those we confess. So, the sin of scandal will remain as a blemish and impediment. We are supposed to help our spouses get into heaven - adding sins to the list isn't the most loving thing to do.

- Putting your own "earthly" needs above God is never a good thing. It isn't good to "practice" excusing yourself from following God's plan. It might not always lead to additional sinful behavior in the future, but it certainly doesn't help in avoiding it.

- There are reasons we receive the sacraments and prepare for them in certain ways. We confess before receiving communion because we want to be in the purest state to receive our Lord. Likewise, it wouldn't be proper to receive the sacrament of marriage without proper preparation.

I don't think any of this means you are ABSOLUTELY, 100% going to have a "problem" in your marriage. It just doesn't give you the best shot. Does that make sense?

Sort of like running a marathon - you want to train for it, get your body into the best shape, avoid eating certain foods, make sure you stretch and take care of your body. Will it kill you if you choose not to train at all and just be a couch potato that eats junk food? Or if you train by running in stilettos? Probably not. Might you get injured? Yes. Could you make it through 100% unscathed? Sure. But, it would be best to get your body ready and wear the proper shoes. Otherwise you are putting your well-being at risk.

Those are just my uneducated thoughts!

Calypso1977 · November 2013

while im not sure this directly addresses the question, it does provide some interesting insight and reasoning. this however is written from the perspecitve that if you live together you are also having sex

http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/marriage/marriage-preparation/cohabiting.cfm

NYCBruin · November 2013

Riss91 said:

I'm sure Carrie has a better response, but I have a few thoughts on the "consequences" idea.

- All sins leave a mark on our soul, even those we confess. So, the sin of scandal will remain as a blemish and impediment. We are supposed to help our spouses get into heaven - adding sins to the list isn't the most loving thing to do.

- Putting your own "earthly" needs above God is never a good thing. It isn't good to "practice" excusing yourself from following God's plan. It might not always lead to additional sinful behavior in the future, but it certainly doesn't help in avoiding it.

- There are reasons we receive the sacraments and prepare for them in certain ways. We confess before receiving communion because we want to be in the purest state to receive our Lord. Likewise, it wouldn't be proper to receive the sacrament of marriage without proper preparation.

I don't think any of this means you are ABSOLUTELY, 100% going to have a "problem" in your marriage. It just doesn't give you the best shot. Does that make sense?

Sort of like running a marathon - you want to train for it, get your body into the best shape, avoid eating certain foods, make sure you stretch and take care of your body. Will it kill you if you choose not to train at all and just be a couch potato that eats junk food? Or if you train by running in stilettos? Probably not. Might you get injured? Yes. Could you make it through 100% unscathed? Sure. But, it would be best to get your body ready and wear the proper shoes. Otherwise you are putting your well-being at risk.

Those are just my uneducated thoughts!

Can you elaborate more on the sin of scandal? Sorry if this is a totally uneducated question, but I really don't understand this one.

How does living in say a two bedroom, two bathroom apartment create scandal? Sure, I understand that someone might think "oh well they must be having sex" and thus there is a scandal. But couldn't the same be said about going over to your FI's apartment and watching a movie on the couch for two hours? From the perspective of an outsider, you were alone together for two uninterrupted hours, therefore "they must be having sex." I guess I just don't understand why one would create scandal and the other wouldn't. The idea that only people who share the night together are having sex seems both a bit absurd and outdated. I mean the song "Afternoon Delight" was released decades ago, so this isn't even really a new idea. Or does spending alone time with your FI also cause scandal?

itzMS · November 2013

I think this is one of the agree to disagree points. I've done a lot of research, and the points against living together are not universally applicable.

I'm obviously with @NYCBruin here...curious...with a lot of aspects of this I don't understand.

I fail to see how living with my then FI as "brother and sister" under guidance of my priest was any different than living with another roommate. It wouldn't have made any difference if we weren't under the same roof. We still would have spent the exact same amount of time together. Cooking, sharing meals, shopping, dates, hanging out with friends & family...you name it.

His living situation was not so good otherwise, so we made the choice we did. Not without proper consideration or guidance. There's no way that can be scandal.

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