How do you address a couple when the wife is a Dr?

Viczaesar · January 2014

PrettyGirlLost said:

BlueBirdMB said:

phira said:

HisGirlFriday13 said:

It depends. If she is a doctor of medicine, dentistry, or veterinary medicine, she gets "Dr." in front of her name. If she's a PhD, socially, she gets "Ms." or "Mrs.," depending on her preference.

If they share a last name, it would be:
Dr. and Mr. John Smith

If they do not share a last name, it would be:
Dr. Jane Smith and Mr. John Jones

No no no no no I am working my ASS off for this PhD. Please do not assume that women with PhDs prefer to go by Ms or Mrs socially.

We have a husband and wife with this particular set-up, so we addressed their save-the-date to: Dr Herfirst Last and Mr Hisfirst Last.

Technically it is correct that one should only automatically refer to a medical doctor as "Dr", but people choose their own titles. So if a PhD wants to be referred to as "Dr", it is polite to address them as this.

Yes, this is an antiquated and elitist convention, and I have yet to read, hear, or be given a logical reason for why this should be the case.

I'm with you, PGL.

Viczaesar · January 2014

phira said:

PhD is a doctoral degree. Dr = holds a doctoral degree. It is not "technically" correct to only refer to medical doctors as Dr.

Given that a PhD, at least in the sciences, takes at least 5-6 years, you can at least treat us like we worked hard for our degrees instead of treating us like we're not REALLY doctors and don't deserve the respect that comes with the title.

Hell, I'm on year 6 of my PhD, not including the 2 years of my Masters. (And by the way, I don't know any PhD program in the humanities that takes less than 6 years.)

chibiyui · January 2014

PrettyGirlLost said:

HisGirlFriday13 said:

Whether you all think it's antiquated or not (and I happen to agree, FWIW), the etiquette rule still stands that PhD's don't get "Dr." in front of their names socially.

If you want to disregard that convention, that's fine, and I don't think anyone would side-eye you. But since this is the Etiquette board, I thought I'd quote what is still, technically, the etiquette rule.

FWIW, every single person with a PhD who was invited to my wedding was either "Dr. and Mrs." or "Dr. and Mr." or "The Drs."

You had all of them at your wedding?!

Viczaesar · January 2014

Fran1985 said:

Liatris2010 said:

All the PhDs I know, and it's a lot, prefer to be addressed doctor.

I'm sure they do prefer it...

Well, given that they ARE doctors, I'm sure they do. PhD means Doctor of Philosophy.

BlueBirdMB · January 2014

PrettyGirlLost said:

BlueBirdMB said:

phira said:

HisGirlFriday13 said:

It depends. If she is a doctor of medicine, dentistry, or veterinary medicine, she gets "Dr." in front of her name. If she's a PhD, socially, she gets "Ms." or "Mrs.," depending on her preference.

If they share a last name, it would be:
Dr. and Mr. John Smith

If they do not share a last name, it would be:
Dr. Jane Smith and Mr. John Jones

No no no no no I am working my ASS off for this PhD. Please do not assume that women with PhDs prefer to go by Ms or Mrs socially.

We have a husband and wife with this particular set-up, so we addressed their save-the-date to: Dr Herfirst Last and Mr Hisfirst Last.

Technically it is correct that one should only automatically refer to a medical doctor as "Dr", but people choose their own titles. So if a PhD wants to be referred to as "Dr", it is polite to address them as this.

Yes, this is an antiquated and elitist convention, and I have yet to read, hear, or be given a logical reason for why this should be the case.

The most important rule that I listed here was that PEOPLE CHOOSE THEIR OWN TITLES. There are certain protocol to follow if you are unsure of someone's preference, which is when we follow the medical doctor vs. PhD rule.

I know many PhD who prefer to not be called Dr. On the flip side, I have a cousin who is basically a mail order Rabbi. I didn't really want to address him as Rabbi, but I did because it was his preference.

HisGirlFriday13 · January 2014

PrettyGirlLost said:

HisGirlFriday13 said:

Whether you all think it's antiquated or not (and I happen to agree, FWIW), the etiquette rule still stands that PhD's don't get "Dr." in front of their names socially.

If you want to disregard that convention, that's fine, and I don't think anyone would side-eye you. But since this is the Etiquette board, I thought I'd quote what is still, technically, the etiquette rule.

FWIW, every single person with a PhD who was invited to my wedding was either "Dr. and Mrs." or "Dr. and Mr." or "The Drs."

You had all of them at your wedding?!

Actually, I wish I had had all of THESE doctors at my wedding:

Because that would have been AWESOME!

But actually, I have two sets of relatives who are PhDs married to other PhDs, so they got to be 'The Drs.' because both of the wives took the husband's last name.

Also, I work in journalism, and AP style is that only medical/dental/vet doctors get "Dr." in front of their names in print, so it's not just an etiquette rule.

But it is an etiquette rule I broke at my wedding.

PrettyGirlLost · January 2014

HisGirlFriday13 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

HisGirlFriday13 said:

Whether you all think it's antiquated or not (and I happen to agree, FWIW), the etiquette rule still stands that PhD's don't get "Dr." in front of their names socially.

If you want to disregard that convention, that's fine, and I don't think anyone would side-eye you. But since this is the Etiquette board, I thought I'd quote what is still, technically, the etiquette rule.

FWIW, every single person with a PhD who was invited to my wedding was either "Dr. and Mrs." or "Dr. and Mr." or "The Drs."

You had all of them at your wedding?!

Actually, I wish I had had all of THESE doctors at my wedding:

Because that would have been AWESOME!

But actually, I have two sets of relatives who are PhDs married to other PhDs, so they got to be 'The Drs.' because both of the wives took the husband's last name.

Also, I work in journalism, and AP style is that only medical/dental/vet doctors get "Dr." in front of their names in print, so it's not just an etiquette rule.

But it is an etiquette rule I broke at my wedding.

Ah, touche! Those are even better doctors!

To the bolded- really? Because I'm pretty sure I have read news articles and seen reports on TV about scientific studies and the person in the interview was referred to as Dr when they weren't physicians.

HisGirlFriday13 · January 2014

@PrettyGirlLost: I said it was AP style. I didn't say people followed it.

AP style rules are broken as often as etiquette rules, and with equal impunity. Sadly.

banana468 · January 2014

That we broke too. One of FIL's oldest friends had a PhD and we called him Dr.

PrettyGirlLost · January 2014

HisGirlFriday13 said:

@PrettyGirlLost: I said it was AP style. I didn't say people followed it.

AP style rules are broken as often as etiquette rules, and with equal impunity. Sadly.

Aaaaah.

phira · January 2014

@laurynm84 Boston University!

@HisGirlFriday13 The thing is, etiquette isn't something that's set in stone and never changes with the times. So unless someone says, "I prefer Ms/Mr/Mrs socially," I'm going to assume they prefer Dr socially.

@whitjoy My friend who's a veterinarian just got a save the date addressed to Miss First Last (not even Ms, which is what she preferred before she got her degree). She already wasn't sure she was going to put in the effort to take time off from her internship to go to the wedding (she couldn't even take time off to attend her cousin's wedding), and the fact that they didn't even bother addressing her properly was upsetting enough that she's not even going to try to get the date off.

phira · January 2014

BlueBirdMB said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

BlueBirdMB said:

phira said:

HisGirlFriday13 said:

It depends. If she is a doctor of medicine, dentistry, or veterinary medicine, she gets "Dr." in front of her name. If she's a PhD, socially, she gets "Ms." or "Mrs.," depending on her preference.

If they share a last name, it would be:
Dr. and Mr. John Smith

If they do not share a last name, it would be:
Dr. Jane Smith and Mr. John Jones

No no no no no I am working my ASS off for this PhD. Please do not assume that women with PhDs prefer to go by Ms or Mrs socially.

We have a husband and wife with this particular set-up, so we addressed their save-the-date to: Dr Herfirst Last and Mr Hisfirst Last.

Technically it is correct that one should only automatically refer to a medical doctor as "Dr", but people choose their own titles. So if a PhD wants to be referred to as "Dr", it is polite to address them as this.

Yes, this is an antiquated and elitist convention, and I have yet to read, hear, or be given a logical reason for why this should be the case.

The most important rule that I listed here was that PEOPLE CHOOSE THEIR OWN TITLES. There are certain protocol to follow if you are unsure of someone's preference, which is when we follow the medical doctor vs. PhD rule.

I know many PhD who prefer to not be called Dr. On the flip side, I have a cousin who is basically a mail order Rabbi. I didn't really want to address him as Rabbi, but I did because it was his preference.

It's not exactly LIKE this. The implication here is that PhDs are not really doctors, but they're just telling people to call them Dr anyway. I don't think that's what you're trying to imply, but the way I see it, you should assume that someone with a doctorate prefers to be called Dr unless told otherwise. Don't treat it like they're Mr/Ms/Mrs as a default and they're just choosing a different, fancier title. Treat it like they're a doctor, and they'll tell you if they'd rather not be called that. Just like a medical doctor.

And ya know, Rabbi is another title, so it sounds like he's letting you know which title he prefers because most people use one title (kinda awkward to say Dr Rabbi).

LondonLisa · January 2014

HisGirlFriday13 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

HisGirlFriday13 said:

Whether you all think it's antiquated or not (and I happen to agree, FWIW), the etiquette rule still stands that PhD's don't get "Dr." in front of their names socially.

If you want to disregard that convention, that's fine, and I don't think anyone would side-eye you. But since this is the Etiquette board, I thought I'd quote what is still, technically, the etiquette rule.

FWIW, every single person with a PhD who was invited to my wedding was either "Dr. and Mrs." or "Dr. and Mr." or "The Drs."

You had all of them at your wedding?!

Actually, I wish I had had all of THESE doctors at my wedding:

Because that would have been AWESOME!

But actually, I have two sets of relatives who are PhDs married to other PhDs, so they got to be 'The Drs.' because both of the wives took the husband's last name.

Also, I work in journalism, and AP style is that only medical/dental/vet doctors get "Dr." in front of their names in print, so it's not just an etiquette rule.

But it is an etiquette rule I broke at my wedding.

This is only 1/2 true. AP style if it is a non-medical doctor it is "Firstname Lastname, PhD."

Just call them doctor. I'm a PhD, and I have found that most of my colleagues have never been offended when someone calls them Dr. Smith when they prefer Ms. Smith socially, but it is definitely the case the other way around!

All have been to some colleagues weddings where the introduction is like the famous scene in the film "Spies like Us":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Lge2_H_8IQ

Chipmunk415 · January 2014

I guess I'm lucky- my sister is an OBGYN, but I just addressed things "The Munks" as it included her, her husband, and my two adorable nieces. My godmother and godfather are both doctors, so I addressed it Drs. L and T Smith. Come to find out, my godmother kept her maiden name professionally, and prefers to be addressed as such (Dr. Jones, for example), despite YEARS of us sending cards and what not to The Smiths, The Smith Family, Drs. Smith, etc.

Technically, my law degree is termed a Juris Doctor. Before passing the bar exam, the running joke was when my folks (a doctor and a nurse) would ask me legal stuff, and I'd follow it with "trust me, I'm a doctor"

kjvaracalli · January 2014

Person with higher rank/title always goes first. I'm a medical Dr. and if invite addressed to me and FI it would be Dr. kjvaracalli and Mr. FI. Knot has some link for addressing invites but I think I also used another website just from googling "addressing wedding invites" or something like that. (ie: Emily Post).

Xandy417 · January 2014

I'm going to preface this by saying I have a Ph.D.

Miss Manners says this (which made me laugh):

"Only people of the medical profession correctly use the title of doctor socially. A really fastidious doctor of philosophy will not use it professionally either, and schools and scholarly institutions where it is assumed that everyone has an advanced degree use "Mr." "Mrs." "Miss" or "Ms."

Many people feel strongly possessive about their scholarly titles,however, and it is Miss. Manners' principle to allow them to call themselves what they want. She will only offer them a story: Miss Manners' own dear father, who would never allow himself to be addressed as a doctor, used to say that a Ph.D was like a nose--you don't make a fuss about having one because you assume that everyone does; its only when you don't have one that it is conspicuous. For sheer snobbery, doesn't that beat insisting on being called doctor?"

My friend bought me the book when I got engaged and I found it to be one of the most fun things I have ever read. I personally don't make a big deal about my degree and don't expect others to either.

PrettyGirlLost · January 2014

Xandy417 said:

I'm going to preface this by saying I have a Ph.D.
Miss Manners says this (which made me laugh):
"Only people of the medical profession correctly use the title of doctor socially. A really fastidious doctor of philosophy will not use it professionally either, and schools and scholarly institutions where it is assumed that everyone has an advanced degree use "Mr." "Mrs." "Miss" or "Ms."
Many people feel strongly possessive about their scholarly titles,however, and it is Miss. Manners' principle to allow them to call themselves what they want. She will only offer them a story: Miss Manners' own dear father, who would never allow himself to be addressed as a doctor, used to say that a Ph.D was like a nose--you don't make a fuss about having one because you assume that everyone does; its only when you don't have one that it is conspicuous. For sheer snobbery, doesn't that beat insisting on being called doctor?"

My friend bought me the book when I got engaged and I found it to be one of the most fun things I have ever read. I personally don't make a big deal about my degree and don't expect others to either.

That information seems outdated and incorrect.

I am a molecular biologist and I can tell you that in the research environment for the natural sciences, "Dr" is most certainly used as a professional title and it is a huge faux pas to address a person as Mr. or Mrs. if they have their Ph.D. It's considered incorrect and rude. You assume everyone has their Ph.D in conversation and correspondence and thus you address them as Dr.

Jen4948 · January 2014

PrettyGirlLost said:

Xandy417 said:

I'm going to preface this by saying I have a Ph.D.
Miss Manners says this (which made me laugh):
"Only people of the medical profession correctly use the title of doctor socially. A really fastidious doctor of philosophy will not use it professionally either, and schools and scholarly institutions where it is assumed that everyone has an advanced degree use "Mr." "Mrs." "Miss" or "Ms."
Many people feel strongly possessive about their scholarly titles,however, and it is Miss. Manners' principle to allow them to call themselves what they want. She will only offer them a story: Miss Manners' own dear father, who would never allow himself to be addressed as a doctor, used to say that a Ph.D was like a nose--you don't make a fuss about having one because you assume that everyone does; its only when you don't have one that it is conspicuous. For sheer snobbery, doesn't that beat insisting on being called doctor?"

My friend bought me the book when I got engaged and I found it to be one of the most fun things I have ever read. I personally don't make a big deal about my degree and don't expect others to either.

That information seems outdated and incorrect.

I am a molecular biologist and I can tell you that in the research environment for the natural sciences, "Dr" is most certainly used as a professional title and it is a huge faux pas to address a person as Mr. or Mrs. if they have their Ph.D. It's considered incorrect and rude. You assume everyone has their Ph.D in conversation and correspondence and thus you address them as Dr.

In the professional environment, I'm sure that this is true. That said, a wedding invitation to such people is not being sent for a professional purpose, but a personal one. Thus, what is incorrect in professional correspondence is not so in personal correspondence, and however incorrect and "rude" these people may find it not to be addressed as "Dr." in their personal correspondence, according to the most traditional etiquette, it wouldn't be rude to send them a wedding invitation addressed to "Mr.", "Ms.," "Miss," or "Mrs."

PrettyGirlLost · January 2014

Jen4948 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

Xandy417 said:

I'm going to preface this by saying I have a Ph.D.
Miss Manners says this (which made me laugh):
"Only people of the medical profession correctly use the title of doctor socially. A really fastidious doctor of philosophy will not use it professionally either, and schools and scholarly institutions where it is assumed that everyone has an advanced degree use "Mr." "Mrs." "Miss" or "Ms."
Many people feel strongly possessive about their scholarly titles,however, and it is Miss. Manners' principle to allow them to call themselves what they want. She will only offer them a story: Miss Manners' own dear father, who would never allow himself to be addressed as a doctor, used to say that a Ph.D was like a nose--you don't make a fuss about having one because you assume that everyone does; its only when you don't have one that it is conspicuous. For sheer snobbery, doesn't that beat insisting on being called doctor?"

My friend bought me the book when I got engaged and I found it to be one of the most fun things I have ever read. I personally don't make a big deal about my degree and don't expect others to either.

That information seems outdated and incorrect.

I am a molecular biologist and I can tell you that in the research environment for the natural sciences, "Dr" is most certainly used as a professional title and it is a huge faux pas to address a person as Mr. or Mrs. if they have their Ph.D. It's considered incorrect and rude. You assume everyone has their Ph.D in conversation and correspondence and thus you address them as Dr.

In the professional environment, I'm sure that this is true. That said, a wedding invitation to such people is not being sent for a professional purpose, but a personal one. Thus, what is incorrect in professional correspondence is not so in personal correspondence, and however incorrect and "rude" these people may find it not to be addressed as "Dr." in their personal correspondence, according to the most traditional etiquette, it wouldn't be rude to send them a wedding invitation addressed to "Mr.", "Ms.," "Miss," or "Mrs."

Yes, it would be rude if that is not their preferred title in formal correspondence, whether personal or professional.

You address people as they prefer to be addressed. Period. There are a lot of antiquated title and address rules of etiquette that ppl flip out about regularly, such as:

~Mr. and Mrs John Doe- women complain about this all the time on these boards and find it offensive, and yet that is the correct etiquette, no?

~Assuming a women has taken her husband's last name- that was the traditional social convention, and yet many women do not do this and do not wish to be addressed by their husbands last name.

So do you guys see my point here? This is an issue where the correct etiquette of the times has actually changed, unlike the etiquette the number of chairs per guest, open vs cash bars, inviting people to pre wedding events, etc.

Ask people how they prefer to be addressed and use that name, title, etc.

Jen4948 · January 2014

PrettyGirlLost said:

Jen4948 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

Xandy417 said:

I'm going to preface this by saying I have a Ph.D.
Miss Manners says this (which made me laugh):
"Only people of the medical profession correctly use the title of doctor socially. A really fastidious doctor of philosophy will not use it professionally either, and schools and scholarly institutions where it is assumed that everyone has an advanced degree use "Mr." "Mrs." "Miss" or "Ms."
Many people feel strongly possessive about their scholarly titles,however, and it is Miss. Manners' principle to allow them to call themselves what they want. She will only offer them a story: Miss Manners' own dear father, who would never allow himself to be addressed as a doctor, used to say that a Ph.D was like a nose--you don't make a fuss about having one because you assume that everyone does; its only when you don't have one that it is conspicuous. For sheer snobbery, doesn't that beat insisting on being called doctor?"

My friend bought me the book when I got engaged and I found it to be one of the most fun things I have ever read. I personally don't make a big deal about my degree and don't expect others to either.

That information seems outdated and incorrect.

I am a molecular biologist and I can tell you that in the research environment for the natural sciences, "Dr" is most certainly used as a professional title and it is a huge faux pas to address a person as Mr. or Mrs. if they have their Ph.D. It's considered incorrect and rude. You assume everyone has their Ph.D in conversation and correspondence and thus you address them as Dr.

In the professional environment, I'm sure that this is true. That said, a wedding invitation to such people is not being sent for a professional purpose, but a personal one. Thus, what is incorrect in professional correspondence is not so in personal correspondence, and however incorrect and "rude" these people may find it not to be addressed as "Dr." in their personal correspondence, according to the most traditional etiquette, it wouldn't be rude to send them a wedding invitation addressed to "Mr.", "Ms.," "Miss," or "Mrs."

Yes, it would be rude if that is not their preferred title in formal correspondence, whether personal or professional.

You address people as they prefer to be addressed. Period. There are a lot of antiquated title and address rules of etiquette that ppl flip out about regularly, such as:

~Mr. and Mrs John Doe- women complain about this all the time on these boards and find it offensive, and yet that is the correct etiquette, no?

~Assuming a women has taken her husband's last name- that was the traditional social convention, and yet many women do not do this and do not wish to be addressed by their husbands last name.

So do you guys see my point here? This is an issue where the correct etiquette of the times has actually changed, unlike the etiquette the number of chairs per guest, open vs cash bars, inviting people to pre wedding events, etc.

Ask people how they prefer to be addressed and use that name, title, etc.

I said, "according to the most traditional etiquette." I actually prefer using whatever people prefer, which is not the same as the most traditional etiquette. I don't need a lecture from you about that.

huskypuppy14 · January 2014

Then why do medical doctors get special treatment and get to use their "professional title"? Are they more important than those that only have Phds?

PrettyGirlLost said:

Xandy417 said:
I'm going to preface this by saying I have a Ph.D.
Miss Manners says this (which made me laugh):
"Only people of the medical profession correctly use the title of doctor socially. A really fastidious doctor of philosophy will not use it professionally either, and schools and scholarly institutions where it is assumed that everyone has an advanced degree use "Mr." "Mrs." "Miss" or "Ms."
Many people feel strongly possessive about their scholarly titles,however, and it is Miss. Manners' principle to allow them to call themselves what they want. She will only offer them a story: Miss Manners' own dear father, who would never allow himself to be addressed as a doctor, used to say that a Ph.D was like a nose--you don't make a fuss about having one because you assume that everyone does; its only when you don't have one that it is conspicuous. For sheer snobbery, doesn't that beat insisting on being called doctor?"

My friend bought me the book when I got engaged and I found it to be one of the most fun things I have ever read. I personally don't make a big deal about my degree and don't expect others to either.

That information seems outdated and incorrect.

I am a molecular biologist and I can tell you that in the research environment for the natural sciences, "Dr" is most certainly used as a professional title and it is a huge faux pas to address a person as Mr. or Mrs. if they have their Ph.D. It's considered incorrect and rude. You assume everyone has their Ph.D in conversation and correspondence and thus you address them as Dr.

PrettyGirlLost ? I'm also a molecular biologist, but I don't have my Ph.D but I have gotten many letters addressed to Dr. Last professionally, because that is the default.

PrettyGirlLost · January 2014

Jen4948 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

Jen4948 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

Xandy417 said:

I'm going to preface this by saying I have a Ph.D.
Miss Manners says this (which made me laugh):
"Only people of the medical profession correctly use the title of doctor socially. A really fastidious doctor of philosophy will not use it professionally either, and schools and scholarly institutions where it is assumed that everyone has an advanced degree use "Mr." "Mrs." "Miss" or "Ms."
Many people feel strongly possessive about their scholarly titles,however, and it is Miss. Manners' principle to allow them to call themselves what they want. She will only offer them a story: Miss Manners' own dear father, who would never allow himself to be addressed as a doctor, used to say that a Ph.D was like a nose--you don't make a fuss about having one because you assume that everyone does; its only when you don't have one that it is conspicuous. For sheer snobbery, doesn't that beat insisting on being called doctor?"

My friend bought me the book when I got engaged and I found it to be one of the most fun things I have ever read. I personally don't make a big deal about my degree and don't expect others to either.

That information seems outdated and incorrect.

I am a molecular biologist and I can tell you that in the research environment for the natural sciences, "Dr" is most certainly used as a professional title and it is a huge faux pas to address a person as Mr. or Mrs. if they have their Ph.D. It's considered incorrect and rude. You assume everyone has their Ph.D in conversation and correspondence and thus you address them as Dr.

In the professional environment, I'm sure that this is true. That said, a wedding invitation to such people is not being sent for a professional purpose, but a personal one. Thus, what is incorrect in professional correspondence is not so in personal correspondence, and however incorrect and "rude" these people may find it not to be addressed as "Dr." in their personal correspondence, according to the most traditional etiquette, it wouldn't be rude to send them a wedding invitation addressed to "Mr.", "Ms.," "Miss," or "Mrs."

Yes, it would be rude if that is not their preferred title in formal correspondence, whether personal or professional.

You address people as they prefer to be addressed. Period. There are a lot of antiquated title and address rules of etiquette that ppl flip out about regularly, such as:

~Mr. and Mrs John Doe- women complain about this all the time on these boards and find it offensive, and yet that is the correct etiquette, no?

~Assuming a women has taken her husband's last name- that was the traditional social convention, and yet many women do not do this and do not wish to be addressed by their husbands last name.

So do you guys see my point here? This is an issue where the correct etiquette of the times has actually changed, unlike the etiquette the number of chairs per guest, open vs cash bars, inviting people to pre wedding events, etc.

Ask people how they prefer to be addressed and use that name, title, etc.

I said, "according to the most traditional etiquette." I actually prefer using whatever people prefer, which is not the same as the most traditional etiquette. I don't need a lecture from you about that.

My comment wasn't solely directed at you and wasn't meant to be a lecture. I don't need an attitude from you.

Jen4948 · January 2014

PrettyGirlLost said:

Jen4948 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

Jen4948 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

Xandy417 said:

I'm going to preface this by saying I have a Ph.D.
Miss Manners says this (which made me laugh):
"Only people of the medical profession correctly use the title of doctor socially. A really fastidious doctor of philosophy will not use it professionally either, and schools and scholarly institutions where it is assumed that everyone has an advanced degree use "Mr." "Mrs." "Miss" or "Ms."
Many people feel strongly possessive about their scholarly titles,however, and it is Miss. Manners' principle to allow them to call themselves what they want. She will only offer them a story: Miss Manners' own dear father, who would never allow himself to be addressed as a doctor, used to say that a Ph.D was like a nose--you don't make a fuss about having one because you assume that everyone does; its only when you don't have one that it is conspicuous. For sheer snobbery, doesn't that beat insisting on being called doctor?"

My friend bought me the book when I got engaged and I found it to be one of the most fun things I have ever read. I personally don't make a big deal about my degree and don't expect others to either.

That information seems outdated and incorrect.

I am a molecular biologist and I can tell you that in the research environment for the natural sciences, "Dr" is most certainly used as a professional title and it is a huge faux pas to address a person as Mr. or Mrs. if they have their Ph.D. It's considered incorrect and rude. You assume everyone has their Ph.D in conversation and correspondence and thus you address them as Dr.

In the professional environment, I'm sure that this is true. That said, a wedding invitation to such people is not being sent for a professional purpose, but a personal one. Thus, what is incorrect in professional correspondence is not so in personal correspondence, and however incorrect and "rude" these people may find it not to be addressed as "Dr." in their personal correspondence, according to the most traditional etiquette, it wouldn't be rude to send them a wedding invitation addressed to "Mr.", "Ms.," "Miss," or "Mrs."

Yes, it would be rude if that is not their preferred title in formal correspondence, whether personal or professional.

You address people as they prefer to be addressed. Period. There are a lot of antiquated title and address rules of etiquette that ppl flip out about regularly, such as:

~Mr. and Mrs John Doe- women complain about this all the time on these boards and find it offensive, and yet that is the correct etiquette, no?

~Assuming a women has taken her husband's last name- that was the traditional social convention, and yet many women do not do this and do not wish to be addressed by their husbands last name.

So do you guys see my point here? This is an issue where the correct etiquette of the times has actually changed, unlike the etiquette the number of chairs per guest, open vs cash bars, inviting people to pre wedding events, etc.

Ask people how they prefer to be addressed and use that name, title, etc.

I said, "according to the most traditional etiquette." I actually prefer using whatever people prefer, which is not the same as the most traditional etiquette. I don't need a lecture from you about that.

My comment wasn't solely directed at you and wasn't meant to be a lecture. I don't need an attitude from you.

However you meant to come across, you were giving me an attitude.

PrettyGirlLost · January 2014

laurynm84 said:

Then why do medical doctors get special treatment and get to use their "professional title"? Are they more important than those that only have Phds?

PrettyGirlLost ? I'm also a molecular biologist, but I don't have my Ph.D but I have gotten many letters addressed to Dr. Last professionally, because that is the default.

Lol, me too. But no, I don't have a Ph.D.

PrettyGirlLost · January 2014

Jen4948 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

Jen4948 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

Jen4948 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

Xandy417 said:

I'm going to preface this by saying I have a Ph.D.
Miss Manners says this (which made me laugh):
"Only people of the medical profession correctly use the title of doctor socially. A really fastidious doctor of philosophy will not use it professionally either, and schools and scholarly institutions where it is assumed that everyone has an advanced degree use "Mr." "Mrs." "Miss" or "Ms."
Many people feel strongly possessive about their scholarly titles,however, and it is Miss. Manners' principle to allow them to call themselves what they want. She will only offer them a story: Miss Manners' own dear father, who would never allow himself to be addressed as a doctor, used to say that a Ph.D was like a nose--you don't make a fuss about having one because you assume that everyone does; its only when you don't have one that it is conspicuous. For sheer snobbery, doesn't that beat insisting on being called doctor?"

My friend bought me the book when I got engaged and I found it to be one of the most fun things I have ever read. I personally don't make a big deal about my degree and don't expect others to either.

That information seems outdated and incorrect.

I am a molecular biologist and I can tell you that in the research environment for the natural sciences, "Dr" is most certainly used as a professional title and it is a huge faux pas to address a person as Mr. or Mrs. if they have their Ph.D. It's considered incorrect and rude. You assume everyone has their Ph.D in conversation and correspondence and thus you address them as Dr.

In the professional environment, I'm sure that this is true. That said, a wedding invitation to such people is not being sent for a professional purpose, but a personal one. Thus, what is incorrect in professional correspondence is not so in personal correspondence, and however incorrect and "rude" these people may find it not to be addressed as "Dr." in their personal correspondence, according to the most traditional etiquette, it wouldn't be rude to send them a wedding invitation addressed to "Mr.", "Ms.," "Miss," or "Mrs."

Yes, it would be rude if that is not their preferred title in formal correspondence, whether personal or professional.

You address people as they prefer to be addressed. Period. There are a lot of antiquated title and address rules of etiquette that ppl flip out about regularly, such as:

~Mr. and Mrs John Doe- women complain about this all the time on these boards and find it offensive, and yet that is the correct etiquette, no?

~Assuming a women has taken her husband's last name- that was the traditional social convention, and yet many women do not do this and do not wish to be addressed by their husbands last name.

So do you guys see my point here? This is an issue where the correct etiquette of the times has actually changed, unlike the etiquette the number of chairs per guest, open vs cash bars, inviting people to pre wedding events, etc.

Ask people how they prefer to be addressed and use that name, title, etc.

I said, "according to the most traditional etiquette." I actually prefer using whatever people prefer, which is not the same as the most traditional etiquette. I don't need a lecture from you about that.

My comment wasn't solely directed at you and wasn't meant to be a lecture. I don't need an attitude from you.

However you meant to come across, you were giving me an attitude.

I actually wasn't at all. This is a good lesson for lurkers or for new posters- don't just assume a comment is written with a bitchy tone.

Jen4948 · January 2014

PrettyGirlLost said:

Jen4948 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

Jen4948 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

Jen4948 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

Xandy417 said:

I'm going to preface this by saying I have a Ph.D.
Miss Manners says this (which made me laugh):
"Only people of the medical profession correctly use the title of doctor socially. A really fastidious doctor of philosophy will not use it professionally either, and schools and scholarly institutions where it is assumed that everyone has an advanced degree use "Mr." "Mrs." "Miss" or "Ms."
Many people feel strongly possessive about their scholarly titles,however, and it is Miss. Manners' principle to allow them to call themselves what they want. She will only offer them a story: Miss Manners' own dear father, who would never allow himself to be addressed as a doctor, used to say that a Ph.D was like a nose--you don't make a fuss about having one because you assume that everyone does; its only when you don't have one that it is conspicuous. For sheer snobbery, doesn't that beat insisting on being called doctor?"

My friend bought me the book when I got engaged and I found it to be one of the most fun things I have ever read. I personally don't make a big deal about my degree and don't expect others to either.

That information seems outdated and incorrect.

I am a molecular biologist and I can tell you that in the research environment for the natural sciences, "Dr" is most certainly used as a professional title and it is a huge faux pas to address a person as Mr. or Mrs. if they have their Ph.D. It's considered incorrect and rude. You assume everyone has their Ph.D in conversation and correspondence and thus you address them as Dr.

In the professional environment, I'm sure that this is true. That said, a wedding invitation to such people is not being sent for a professional purpose, but a personal one. Thus, what is incorrect in professional correspondence is not so in personal correspondence, and however incorrect and "rude" these people may find it not to be addressed as "Dr." in their personal correspondence, according to the most traditional etiquette, it wouldn't be rude to send them a wedding invitation addressed to "Mr.", "Ms.," "Miss," or "Mrs."

Yes, it would be rude if that is not their preferred title in formal correspondence, whether personal or professional.

You address people as they prefer to be addressed. Period. There are a lot of antiquated title and address rules of etiquette that ppl flip out about regularly, such as:

~Mr. and Mrs John Doe- women complain about this all the time on these boards and find it offensive, and yet that is the correct etiquette, no?

~Assuming a women has taken her husband's last name- that was the traditional social convention, and yet many women do not do this and do not wish to be addressed by their husbands last name.

So do you guys see my point here? This is an issue where the correct etiquette of the times has actually changed, unlike the etiquette the number of chairs per guest, open vs cash bars, inviting people to pre wedding events, etc.

Ask people how they prefer to be addressed and use that name, title, etc.

I said, "according to the most traditional etiquette." I actually prefer using whatever people prefer, which is not the same as the most traditional etiquette. I don't need a lecture from you about that.

My comment wasn't solely directed at you and wasn't meant to be a lecture. I don't need an attitude from you.

However you meant to come across, you were giving me an attitude.

I actually wasn't at all. This is a good lesson for lurkers or for new posters- don't just assume a comment is written with a bitchy tone.

However, the point I was making, which you did not get, was that according to truly traditional etiquette, only a medical doctor would be addressed as "Dr." Rather, you jumped on the assumption that I actually promote this usage, when I in fact agree with you.

I do not, however, agree with the tone you used in the post in which you responded to me or those following. I personally do not need a lecture from you, so I don't appreciate that you quoted my post to make one.

phira · January 2014

@PrettyGirlLost @laurynm84 Every time I get something addressed to Dr. Phira, or Phira, PhD, I save it because it makes me feel gleeful. We used to joke at my old job, when I was a tech, that if you were misaddressed, it was proof you had a PhD.

I do find it really irritating that "traditional etiquette" says that we have to call medical doctors Dr socially, but that it's incorrect to call PhDs Dr socially. I'm sorry that I figure out disease mechanisms so that we can better treat diseases; clearly, this isn't as good or something as being a medical doctor.

That's what it means to me to be told that a PhD doesn't have to be called the same title as an MD.

PrettyGirlLost · January 2014

Jen4948 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

Jen4948 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

Jen4948 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

Jen4948 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

Xandy417 said:

I'm going to preface this by saying I have a Ph.D.
Miss Manners says this (which made me laugh):
"Only people of the medical profession correctly use the title of doctor socially. A really fastidious doctor of philosophy will not use it professionally either, and schools and scholarly institutions where it is assumed that everyone has an advanced degree use "Mr." "Mrs." "Miss" or "Ms."
Many people feel strongly possessive about their scholarly titles,however, and it is Miss. Manners' principle to allow them to call themselves what they want. She will only offer them a story: Miss Manners' own dear father, who would never allow himself to be addressed as a doctor, used to say that a Ph.D was like a nose--you don't make a fuss about having one because you assume that everyone does; its only when you don't have one that it is conspicuous. For sheer snobbery, doesn't that beat insisting on being called doctor?"

My friend bought me the book when I got engaged and I found it to be one of the most fun things I have ever read. I personally don't make a big deal about my degree and don't expect others to either.

That information seems outdated and incorrect.

I am a molecular biologist and I can tell you that in the research environment for the natural sciences, "Dr" is most certainly used as a professional title and it is a huge faux pas to address a person as Mr. or Mrs. if they have their Ph.D. It's considered incorrect and rude. You assume everyone has their Ph.D in conversation and correspondence and thus you address them as Dr.

In the professional environment, I'm sure that this is true. That said, a wedding invitation to such people is not being sent for a professional purpose, but a personal one. Thus, what is incorrect in professional correspondence is not so in personal correspondence, and however incorrect and "rude" these people may find it not to be addressed as "Dr." in their personal correspondence, according to the most traditional etiquette, it wouldn't be rude to send them a wedding invitation addressed to "Mr.", "Ms.," "Miss," or "Mrs."

Yes, it would be rude if that is not their preferred title in formal correspondence, whether personal or professional.

You address people as they prefer to be addressed. Period. There are a lot of antiquated title and address rules of etiquette that ppl flip out about regularly, such as:

~Mr. and Mrs John Doe- women complain about this all the time on these boards and find it offensive, and yet that is the correct etiquette, no?

~Assuming a women has taken her husband's last name- that was the traditional social convention, and yet many women do not do this and do not wish to be addressed by their husbands last name.

So do you guys see my point here? This is an issue where the correct etiquette of the times has actually changed, unlike the etiquette the number of chairs per guest, open vs cash bars, inviting people to pre wedding events, etc.

Ask people how they prefer to be addressed and use that name, title, etc.

I said, "according to the most traditional etiquette." I actually prefer using whatever people prefer, which is not the same as the most traditional etiquette. I don't need a lecture from you about that.

My comment wasn't solely directed at you and wasn't meant to be a lecture. I don't need an attitude from you.

However you meant to come across, you were giving me an attitude.

I actually wasn't at all. This is a good lesson for lurkers or for new posters- don't just assume a comment is written with a bitchy tone.
However, the point I was making, which you did not get, was that according to truly traditional etiquette, only a medical doctor would be addressed as "Dr." Rather, you jumped on the assumption that I actually promote this usage, when I in fact agree with you.

I do not, however, agree with the tone you used in the post in which you responded to me or those following. I personally do not need a lecture from you, so I don't appreciate that you quoted my post to make one.

I know you were talking about etiquette and not your own personal opinion. I had no idea what your personal opinion was, and wasn't making assumptions about it.

I quoted something I disagreed with, which is the traditional etiquette, not you specifically or your opinion. . . again, I had no clue what your opinion was.

You assumed or perceived I had a nasty tone in my post, which I did not.

Jen4948 · January 2014

PrettyGirlLost said:

Jen4948 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

Jen4948 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

Jen4948 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

Jen4948 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

Xandy417 said:

I'm going to preface this by saying I have a Ph.D.
Miss Manners says this (which made me laugh):
"Only people of the medical profession correctly use the title of doctor socially. A really fastidious doctor of philosophy will not use it professionally either, and schools and scholarly institutions where it is assumed that everyone has an advanced degree use "Mr." "Mrs." "Miss" or "Ms."
Many people feel strongly possessive about their scholarly titles,however, and it is Miss. Manners' principle to allow them to call themselves what they want. She will only offer them a story: Miss Manners' own dear father, who would never allow himself to be addressed as a doctor, used to say that a Ph.D was like a nose--you don't make a fuss about having one because you assume that everyone does; its only when you don't have one that it is conspicuous. For sheer snobbery, doesn't that beat insisting on being called doctor?"

My friend bought me the book when I got engaged and I found it to be one of the most fun things I have ever read. I personally don't make a big deal about my degree and don't expect others to either.

That information seems outdated and incorrect.

I am a molecular biologist and I can tell you that in the research environment for the natural sciences, "Dr" is most certainly used as a professional title and it is a huge faux pas to address a person as Mr. or Mrs. if they have their Ph.D. It's considered incorrect and rude. You assume everyone has their Ph.D in conversation and correspondence and thus you address them as Dr.

In the professional environment, I'm sure that this is true. That said, a wedding invitation to such people is not being sent for a professional purpose, but a personal one. Thus, what is incorrect in professional correspondence is not so in personal correspondence, and however incorrect and "rude" these people may find it not to be addressed as "Dr." in their personal correspondence, according to the most traditional etiquette, it wouldn't be rude to send them a wedding invitation addressed to "Mr.", "Ms.," "Miss," or "Mrs."

Yes, it would be rude if that is not their preferred title in formal correspondence, whether personal or professional.

You address people as they prefer to be addressed. Period. There are a lot of antiquated title and address rules of etiquette that ppl flip out about regularly, such as:

~Mr. and Mrs John Doe- women complain about this all the time on these boards and find it offensive, and yet that is the correct etiquette, no?

~Assuming a women has taken her husband's last name- that was the traditional social convention, and yet many women do not do this and do not wish to be addressed by their husbands last name.

So do you guys see my point here? This is an issue where the correct etiquette of the times has actually changed, unlike the etiquette the number of chairs per guest, open vs cash bars, inviting people to pre wedding events, etc.

Ask people how they prefer to be addressed and use that name, title, etc.

I said, "according to the most traditional etiquette." I actually prefer using whatever people prefer, which is not the same as the most traditional etiquette. I don't need a lecture from you about that.

My comment wasn't solely directed at you and wasn't meant to be a lecture. I don't need an attitude from you.

However you meant to come across, you were giving me an attitude.

I actually wasn't at all. This is a good lesson for lurkers or for new posters- don't just assume a comment is written with a bitchy tone.
However, the point I was making, which you did not get, was that according to truly traditional etiquette, only a medical doctor would be addressed as "Dr." Rather, you jumped on the assumption that I actually promote this usage, when I in fact agree with you.

I do not, however, agree with the tone you used in the post in which you responded to me or those following. I personally do not need a lecture from you, so I don't appreciate that you quoted my post to make one.

I know you were talking about etiquette and not your own personal opinion. I had no idea what your personal opinion was, and wasn't making assumptions about it.

I quoted something I disagreed with, which is the traditional etiquette, not you specifically or your opinion. . . again, I had no clue what your opinion was.

You assumed or perceived I had a nasty tone in my post, which I did not.

Sorry. I guess I was carrying a bad mood about something else into that post. But my personal opinion is the same as yours-that people should be addressed as they prefer, even if it's not traditional. Traditional etiquette, of course, holds differently.

PrettyGirlLost · January 2014

Jen4948 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

I know you were talking about etiquette and not your own personal opinion. I had no idea what your personal opinion was, and wasn't making assumptions about it.

I quoted something I disagreed with, which is the traditional etiquette, not you specifically or your opinion. . . again, I had no clue what your opinion was.

You assumed or perceived I had a nasty tone in my post, which I did not.

Sorry. I guess I was carrying a bad mood about something else into that post. But my personal opinion is the same as yours-that people should be addressed as they prefer, even if it's not traditional. Traditional etiquette, of course, holds differently.

We all good!

How do you address a couple when the wife is a Dr?

Re: How do you address a couple when the wife is a Dr?

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