Have you guys heard of this?!

GoldenPenguin · January 2014

This is really all I've got at this point.

Swazzle · January 2014

So you're ready to commit to planning a wedding but not ready to commit to being engaged. Do you see at all how that makes no sense?

lennonkdc · January 2014

Look @00kim00, FWIW, every person I've known who said they didn't "believe in divorce" before marriage is now divorced. Divorce isn't like the Tooth Fairy, it exists whether you believe in it. Not believing in divorce is just admitting that you'll be ok being miserable and married until one of you can't take it any more and then files for divorce. Believing in divorce means that you know if you don't work on your relationship every day then it could still end, married or not. And no amount of pre-engagement counseling or work books can guarantee that you and your SO will never have issues that pop up, resolvable or not, as your relations evolves, and it will keep evolving even after your wedding.

LabLove86 · January 2014

Didn't intend to start a whole controversy here!! I just thought it was interesting the way she was doing things. And I had never personally heard of it before.

For clarification - yes the future fi knows about the planning.

As far as my personal views on the situation - as long as they have communicated and are both ok with they way they are doing things then - good for them.

I DO feel that engagement is a whole additional level of commitment. My BF and I have talked extensively about getting married, having children, growing old together ect - we both know that we want to be together for the rest of our lives - but there has been no official proposal yet. And I think that he thinks he is fully 100% committed (which - monogamous yes - absolutely) but I know that he is still 'getting there' as far as engagement is concerned, and thats ok. I know it'll happen - but we both have to be ready.

As a previous poster stated - my BF and I feel that marriage is a one-time shot. Divorce is not an option for us. So if he needs a little more time to "make sure" - I'm ok with it because I already know. I will be very excited to plan a wedding - but I will be even more excited to be his wife and be part of our marriage for the rest of our lives. I want HIM as my partner - so if I have to wait a few more months or whatever - I'll wait.

Well - now that I went on that tangent. Again - I just thought it was an interesting different way of planning that this girl was doing.

Hummingbird125 · January 2014

00kim00 said:

@buddysmom80 I know people change, even on major issues and even with God. But I fully intend to be in that group that won't get a divorce regardless, I recognize this is a huge decision and a lifetime commitment, which is why we're taking our time to fully consider and seek counsel from others before committing to marriage/engagement (committing money to a venue just doesn't have the same weight, IMO)

Honestly, I think this line of thinking is just stupid and immature, ESPECIALLY if you're planning on having children someday. You just DON'T KNOW how you and he will grow/change over the years. I'm not saying that you shouldn't go into a marriage fully expecting it to last forever and knowing you will do everything possible to work out your issues, but you sound like you don't even care what happens down the road, you're just locking yourself in. You know what? My mom and dad were high school sweethearts who got married when they were 20/21. They were married for over 20 years when some doctor messed up on a routine surgery and caused my dad to have a stroke. Physically, he mostly recovered. Mentally, he was an entirely different person. It was not his fault, but he became someone very different than the man my mother had married. By the time she filed for divorce, my little sisters and I were SO grateful that we wouldn't have to continue living in such a volatile, unpredictable, and tense family dynamic. If my mom had decided that she was going to remain married to my dad "in sickness and in health" we ALL would have suffered greatly. My life would probably be entirely different, and not in a good way.

All I'm saying is, if you think you're mature enough for marriage, you should both be mature enough to know that you cannot account for every possible thing that may affect your relationship in the future.

Swazzle · January 2014

Everyone on the "divorce is not an option" bus: You realize that sometimes things happen that you do not ever even for a second anticipate happening? You would stay with a spouse who was verbally/emotionally/physically abusive? What about in the event of adultery? What if there's some other major issue in your marriage that you're unable to work out alone or with the help of therapy?

I'm genuinely curious as to what you would do since you're absolutely adamant that you will never, ever, ever get a divorce.

LabLove86 · January 2014

Oh trust me - I am no stranger to life throwing you things that you cannot change and things that you do not expect or anticipate.

I am also a firm believer that how you handle what life gives you is what defines you as a person.

As far as my views on divorce - I think if you always have it as an option in the back of your mind its more likely to happen. "Oh well - if xyz were to happen - then yes . . . I'll get a divorce" only perpetuates the circumstances for that event to take place.

If I ever am in a situation where something makes me seriously consider a divorce - then of course I'll consider and make the best decision for all involved/myself/kids/ect.

I know that infidelity and abuse issues are something that you usually don't see coming. People you wouldn't expect are big offenders. But I would never agree to marry someone who had red-flags in those areas. Who I didn't trust implicitly . . . . although I'm sure there are plenty of people who said the same thing and are now dealing with the consequences of one or the other.

Again - I know situations may arise I'm not expecting, but I'm also not willing to have it as an option unless it is the only option.

bethsmiles · January 2014

ambolt75 said:

Oh trust me - I am no stranger to life throwing you things that you cannot change and things that you do not expect or anticipate.
I am also a firm believer that how you handle what life gives you is what defines you as a person.

As far as my views on divorce - I think if you always have it as an option in the back of your mind its more likely to happen. "Oh well - if xyz were to happen - then yes . . . I'll get a divorce" only perpetuates the circumstances for that event to take place.
If I ever am in a situation where something makes me seriously consider a divorce - then of course I'll consider and make the best decision for all involved/myself/kids/ect.

What does the bolded even mean? If I think "I'd get a divorce if my spouse had a long-term affair" somehow me thinking that would contribute to that happening? That's ridiculous. You seem to be under the impression that divorce is an easy way out for people. That couples who get divorced just must not have tried hard enough. But that's just not true.

I absolutely believe BF and I will stay together forever. There is no voice in the back of head saying, this might not work out but I can always get divorced. BUT I know, logically, life could throw something completely unexpected our way and circumstances could change. I have no idea what the future could hold so I'm not going to lie to myself and say divorce is never an option. No one should go into marriage thinking, I can always just get a divorce if it doesn't work out. But no one should go into marriage thinking divorce is never an option.

LabLove86 · January 2014

bethsmiles said:

ambolt75 said:

Oh trust me - I am no stranger to life throwing you things that you cannot change and things that you do not expect or anticipate.
I am also a firm believer that how you handle what life gives you is what defines you as a person.

As far as my views on divorce - I think if you always have it as an option in the back of your mind its more likely to happen. "Oh well - if xyz were to happen - then yes . . . I'll get a divorce" only perpetuates the circumstances for that event to take place.
If I ever am in a situation where something makes me seriously consider a divorce - then of course I'll consider and make the best decision for all involved/myself/kids/ect.

What does the bolded even mean? If I think "I'd get a divorce if my spouse had a long-term affair" somehow me thinking that would contribute to that happening? That's ridiculous. You seem to be under the impression that divorce is an easy way out for people. That couples who get divorced just must not have tried hard enough. But that's just not true.

I absolutely believe BF and I will stay together forever. There is no voice in the back of head saying, this might not work out but I can always get divorced. BUT I know, logically, life could throw something completely unexpected our way and circumstances could change. I have no idea what the future could hold so I'm not going to lie to myself and say divorce is never an option. No one should go into marriage thinking, I can always just get a divorce if it doesn't work out. But no one should go into marriage thinking divorce is never an option.

I NEVER said that - EVER. I have not personally been divorced but know have broken up with long term boyfriends, and also have had loved ones going through divorces. I am well aware of the difficulties of it - financially, emotionally, physically - all of it. I have a good understanding of what it means and entails. Which is why my viewpoint is what it is.

I think we just have different viewpoints - also - I said in my previous post that if it came to it and I had to consider it - then I would. But I am not - personally - leaving it as an option.

LabLove86 · January 2014

TwoDimes said:

I always consider divorce to be "the absolute last resort" rather than "not an option."

I'm not so foolish as to ignore the fact that life can always throw us curve balls we aren't expecting. But, divorce also shouldn't be an easy-out escape plan.

This is what I'm saying. In my mind - its not an option until its the only option.

bethsmiles · January 2014

ambolt75 said:

bethsmiles said:

ambolt75 said:

Oh trust me - I am no stranger to life throwing you things that you cannot change and things that you do not expect or anticipate.
I am also a firm believer that how you handle what life gives you is what defines you as a person.

As far as my views on divorce - I think if you always have it as an option in the back of your mind its more likely to happen. "Oh well - if xyz were to happen - then yes . . . I'll get a divorce" only perpetuates the circumstances for that event to take place.
If I ever am in a situation where something makes me seriously consider a divorce - then of course I'll consider and make the best decision for all involved/myself/kids/ect.

What does the bolded even mean? If I think "I'd get a divorce if my spouse had a long-term affair" somehow me thinking that would contribute to that happening? That's ridiculous. You seem to be under the impression that divorce is an easy way out for people. That couples who get divorced just must not have tried hard enough. But that's just not true.

I absolutely believe BF and I will stay together forever. There is no voice in the back of head saying, this might not work out but I can always get divorced. BUT I know, logically, life could throw something completely unexpected our way and circumstances could change. I have no idea what the future could hold so I'm not going to lie to myself and say divorce is never an option. No one should go into marriage thinking, I can always just get a divorce if it doesn't work out. But no one should go into marriage thinking divorce is never an option.

I NEVER said that - EVER. I have not personally been divorced but know have broken up with long term boyfriends, and also have had loved ones going through divorces. I am well aware of the difficulties of it - financially, emotionally, physically - all of it. I have a good understanding of what it means and entails. Which is why my viewpoint is what it is.

I think we just have different viewpoints - also - I said in my previous post that if it came to it and I had to consider it - then I would. But I am not - personally - leaving it as an option.

I'm just letting you know, that's how your posts are coming across.

Blue & White · January 2014

@00kim00 My wedding is in April. Your possible maybe if I feel like it wedding is in May. My invites are going out in 2 weeks. So you have, what? A month and 2 weeks to send out invites? You CAN plan a wedding in that time, but not if you're so wishy washy on making a commitment even to your potential spouse.

The divorce nonsense is just that - nonsense. I don't plan on getting divorced, I don't plan on miscarrying a child, I don't plan on having fertility issues, I don't plan on getting sick (I certainly didn't this past summer), I don't plan on going bungee jumping - out of all of these, the only one I can CONTROL? Bungee jumping. I won't be doing that. Life happens. It's going to smack you in the butt if you believe everything is puppies and rainbows.

Dignity100 · January 2014

By a show of hands - how many people here have gotten or are getting married only to start planning for their divorce? The only people I can really see doing this are people marrying somebody who is wealthy and going into it with no pre-nup (and those are pretty crappy people).

@00kim00 - If you do NOT get married this May - will you still be using the same dress next year (or the year after or when ever you DO have your wedding)? Also - if you were engaged and found the perfect spot and found out somebody who may or may not be getting married already booked it on the day you wanted?

You have more things picked out than many of us 'newly engaged' on this forum. I do not have my dress and do not have my venue for 100%. It doesn't matter if it was a $35 dress or a $3500 dress - you bought it for a reason, it's not really a purchase you can say 'Oh we decided not to get married, so I'm just going to wear this as a cute summer dress' - unless it's really really informal.

I guess I just don't understand - since it sounds like you're actively planning and putting money down on stuff. Nobody NEEDS a year to plan a wedding, many just take it because there is A LOT to do in the common-day wedding.

Blackbird230 · January 2014

I missed some good ole BSC.

00kim00 · January 2014

@dignity100 I don't know if I'd use the same dress. And I don't particularly care because of the price. I could always donate it, there are plenty of women who can't afford a beautiful dress and I'm sure someone else would like it as much as I do. And if someone took my "perfect" spot, I don't really care if it was maybe for a wedding, or for their annual corn hole tournament or their family reunion or just for a weekend away with a friend. Why should I care why someone rented a place? If I can't have it, I'll find something different. @imhollister why pre-engagement counseling rather than just pre-marital counseling? My question is why pre-marital counseling rather than just marriage counseling? I've spoken with several counsel ore who have said they've met many couples who they wish had come to counseling before getting engaged. If they had, they probably would have at least delayed if not cancelled the wedding. But once you make this big deal of "I'm engaged!" It's immensely harder to think of things objectively and actually listen to counsel. @bethsmiles "But no one should go into marriage thinking divorce is never an option." I believe the exact opposite. If divorce is an option, then marriage isn't "til death" and what's the point? How is that any different than a long term monogamous relationship? @hummingbird125 "you sound like you don't even care what happens down the road, you're just locking yourself in." Absolutely. That's what marriage is to me, 100% permanent. It's like having a child, even if that child ends up being emotionally disturbed, a criminal, or severely disabled, you don't give the child back. Family is family, and once you're married, you're family. So yeah, "even if..." whatever, ending the marriage isn't an option. The choice is to live with it and be miserable or to work on it and make it better. As an alternative to working on things, I think living in misery is a more powerful negative reinforcer than divorce. If given 3 options (working on it, misery, or divorce), statistically divorce is the most palatable of the 3. Take that off the table and there's more motivation to work on things. The reason all the suggestions of divorce is ok or even preferable "if..." don't impact my decision is that, for me, the purpose of marriage isn't to make me happy, so being unhappy doesn't negate the marriage. I have no illusions that life is going to be puppies and rainbows, or even happy a lot of times. The reality is that most marriages are NOT happily ever after. I realize that, and when I marry it's forever, even through the tough times because there isn't a choice to give up

Hummingbird125 · January 2014

00kim00 said:

@hummingbird125 "you sound like you don't even care what happens down the road, you're just locking yourself in." Absolutely. That's what marriage is to me, 100% permanent. It's like having a child, even if that child ends up being emotionally disturbed, a criminal, or severely disabled, you don't give the child back. Family is family, and once you're married, you're family. So yeah, "even if..." whatever, ending the marriage isn't an option. The choice is to live with it and be miserable or to work on it and make it better. As an alternative to working on things, I think living in misery is a more powerful negative reinforcer than divorce. If given 3 options (working on it, misery, or divorce), statistically divorce is the most palatable of the 3. Take that off the table and there's more motivation to work on things. The reason all the suggestions of divorce is ok or even preferable "if..." don't impact my decision is that, for me, the purpose of marriage isn't to make me happy, so being unhappy doesn't negate the marriage. I have no illusions that life is going to be puppies and rainbows, or even happy a lot of times. The reality is that most marriages are NOT happily ever after. I realize that, and when I marry it's forever, even through the tough times because there isn't a choice to give up

Okay... so you think if you were in a situation like my mother was, where your husband changed into an entirely different person, and you and your children were suffering due to that every day, you would STILL not divorce? Divorce WAS a last-resort for my mom. She tried therapy (with and without my dad), different medications for him, consulted lots of doctors, but he was not going to change. I don't think that by being aware divorce is an option I'm any more predisposed to get one in the future. I'm going into my marriage with every intention of it lasting forever, and my FI feels the same. However, we also know that if we want it to last there are going to be times that we'll have to put in some hard work to resolve the issues that are bound to arise.

Listen, I think I get what you're saying on some level. I definitely believe that there are many people out there who do not take marriage as seriously as they should, and do not fully consider what it means to make that kind of commitment to another person, however I do think that most people do not take it as lightly as you think they do. Those of us here who do think of divorce as an option are thinking of it as a LAST RESORT - if things are truly so bad we can't continue to live that way and we've done everything possible to try to repair the relationship - kind of option. Not a "well, if we grow apart and I decide I might like to try being with someone else" kind of option. Honestly, I think that people who say they "don't believe in divorce" are more likely to be unhappy in their "successful" marriages, because they don't have to worry about what will happen if they don't continually work on keeping their relationship strong.

CLoGreenEyes · January 2014

GoldenPenguin · January 2014

@00kim00 - you're delusional.

"for me, the purpose of marriage isn't to make me happy, so being unhappy doesn't negate the marriage."

So, what is the purpose of marriage?

Also, NOTHING is permanent.

CLoGreenEyes · January 2014

Hummingbird125 said:Listen, I think I get what you're saying on some level. I definitely believe that there are many people out there who do not take marriage as seriously as they should, and do not fully consider what it means to make that kind of commitment to another person, however I do think that most people do not take it as lightly as you think they do. Those of us here who do think of divorce as an option are thinking of it as a LAST RESORT - if things are truly so bad we can't continue to live that way and we've done everything possible to try to repair the relationship - kind of option. Not a "well, if we grow apart and I decide I might like to try being with someone else" kind of option. Honestly, I think that people who say they "don't believe in divorce" are more likely to be unhappy in their "successful" marriages, because they don't have to worry about what will happen if they don't continually work on keeping their relationship strong.

All kinds of YES! to the bolded. Especially if your SO doesn't do everything possible on his end to repair the relationship. My mom was married to a man who verbally abused her and her kids for 23 years, and she kept it together for that long because "divorce wasn't an option." A few heroin addictions, a divorce, and several hundred counseling sessions later, my family would probably agree that divorce IS an option. A last resort, but an option nonetheless. When you enter into a marriage, especially one where children are or will be involved, you need to prepare to accept and deal with the unexpected. This doesn't mean just giving up at the first sign of trouble, but it means being open to noticing and dealing with any red flags that emerge after you are married. Sometimes they don't show up right away.

ETA: Sorry guys, I'm not sure why it's quoting funny.

minskat30 · January 2014

I'm with @Hummingbird125 on this. If my kids were suffering like she was with her Dad, I'd have to weigh that VERY heavily in favor of divorce when therapy/meds failed. Remember, you are committed to care for them just as much as you have a commitment in your marriage.

Dignity100 · January 2014

00kim00 said:

Absolutely. That's what marriage is to me, 100% permanent. It's like having a child, even if that child ends up being emotionally disturbed, a criminal, or severely disabled, you don't give the child back. Family is family, and once you're married, you're family. So yeah, "even if..." whatever, ending the marriage isn't an option. The choice is to live with it and be miserable or to work on it and make it better. As an alternative to working on things, I think living in misery is a more powerful negative reinforcer than divorce. If given 3 options (working on it, misery, or divorce), statistically divorce is the most palatable of the 3. Take that off the table and there's more motivation to work on things. The reason all the suggestions of divorce is ok or even preferable "if..." don't impact my decision is that, for me, the purpose of marriage isn't to make me happy, so being unhappy doesn't negate the marriage. I have no illusions that life is going to be puppies and rainbows, or even happy a lot of times. The reality is that most marriages are NOT happily ever after. I realize that, and when I marry it's forever, even through the tough times because there isn't a choice to give up

WOW - So from what I'm reading if you're husband starts abusing you (mentally and/or physically) you're just going to stick out and live in that dangerous situation?? Let me give you a situation that I know to be a real situation - What if you got married, had a kid (daughter) and found out your husband was doing 'naughty' things to her -- purposely walking in the bathroom when she's in the shower, trying to touch her 'no-no' parts and so forth. So now you find out - what do you do?

I believe everybody has the RIGHT to be happy. If they are unhappy in a marriage (people DO change, values DO change, live plans DO change) I think after SERIOUS consideration they should be allowed to move on.

I get that divorce should not be taken as lightly as most people do take it, but to say it's not an option in ANY situation is silly. I know your answer is going to be 'That's why we're doing per-engagement counseling' -- what you hear about just about everybody who gets put in jail is 'I would have never suspected this of him/her - s/he was always so sweet'

Swazzle · January 2014

Apparently my question will just go ignored......

On another note, @00kim00, I feel very, very sad for you that you'd be willing to live the rest of your life being miserable.

bethsmiles · January 2014

00kim00 said:

@bethsmiles "But no one should go into marriage thinking divorce is never an option." I believe the exact opposite. If divorce is an option, then marriage isn't "til death" and what's the point? How is that any different than a long term monogamous relationship?

You realize that just because a couple views divorce as an option doesn't mean they have to get divorced, right? I have every intention of marrying my boyfriend and staying with him forever. But if something I can't even think of right now happened and our marriage was falling apart, we were unhappy, and had tried everything, worked as hard as we could to save our marriage - yes divorce would be an option.

And I feel really sad for you that you don't think you deserve to be happy in your marriage. I feel like you are purposefully not getting the point here - there are cases when divorce is the right thing to do, as a last resort when everything else has failed and both parties (or even one person) is unhappy.

lennonkdc · January 2014

Dignity100 said:

00kim00 said:

Absolutely. That's what marriage is to me, 100% permanent. It's like having a child, even if that child ends up being emotionally disturbed, a criminal, or severely disabled, you don't give the child back. Family is family, and once you're married, you're family. So yeah, "even if..." whatever, ending the marriage isn't an option. The choice is to live with it and be miserable or to work on it and make it better. As an alternative to working on things, I think living in misery is a more powerful negative reinforcer than divorce. If given 3 options (working on it, misery, or divorce), statistically divorce is the most palatable of the 3. Take that off the table and there's more motivation to work on things. The reason all the suggestions of divorce is ok or even preferable "if..." don't impact my decision is that, for me, the purpose of marriage isn't to make me happy, so being unhappy doesn't negate the marriage. I have no illusions that life is going to be puppies and rainbows, or even happy a lot of times. The reality is that most marriages are NOT happily ever after. I realize that, and when I marry it's forever, even through the tough times because there isn't a choice to give up

WOW - So from what I'm reading if you're husband starts abusing you (mentally and/or physically) you're just going to stick out and live in that dangerous situation?? Let me give you a situation that I know to be a real situation - What if you got married, had a kid (daughter) and found out your husband was doing 'naughty' things to her -- purposely walking in the bathroom when she's in the shower, trying to touch her 'no-no' parts and so forth. So now you find out - what do you do?

I believe everybody has the RIGHT to be happy. If they are unhappy in a marriage (people DO change, values DO change, live plans DO change) I think after SERIOUS consideration they should be allowed to move on.

I get that divorce should not be taken as lightly as most people do take it, but to say it's not an option in ANY situation is silly. I know your answer is going to be 'That's why we're doing per-engagement counseling' -- what you hear about just about everybody who gets put in jail is 'I would have never suspected this of him/her - s/he was always so sweet'

Just to follow up on this a bit- If someone's a pediphile or an abuser what makes you so sure that you'll find out that information in counseling? The people (esp the men) who perpetrate these types of crimes are by and large charming, manipulative, con men who know exactly what to say, especially to a mental health professional. And I'm sorry, but as someone who works closely with the mentally ill and developmentally challenged, something like traumatic brain injury can completely change a person. Until you've sat in a room with someone with severe issues you should never say never to divorce.

mbross3 · January 2014

00kim00 said:

@buddysmom80 I know people change, even on major issues and even with God. But I fully intend to be in that group that won't get a divorce regardless, I recognize this is a huge decision and a lifetime commitment, which is why we're taking our time to fully consider and seek counsel from others before committing to marriage/engagement (committing money to a venue just doesn't have the same weight, IMO)

Unfortunately, this is not entirely up to you. In the day, age, and country in which we live- one person can get divorced from another and you don't need the other to agree to the divorce. If you marry your boyfriend (FI?) then the decision of whether or not to ever get a divorce will no longer be entirely in your hands--he will also have the choice to someday divorce you whether you want that or not.

With that said, and with the how serious this issue seems to you-- why in the world would you rush this? It seems like trying to quickly fit all of your prerequisites in before an already scheduled and booked May date is crazy. Wait and finish learning about each other and make sure this is the commitment you both want to make. There is no need to rush. If you have to wait a year, wait a year.

edited because I have one more thing to add:

How to word this. PP are totally correct. Divorce should absolutely be a LAST RESORT. Ignoring the reality of divorce (that it exists in our society) is just, quite honestly, lazy and sad. What you're saying is that --no matter what-- you will get never ever get divorced. You will live in misery, allow your partner to live in misery, live in abuse, allow your children to live in abuse, etc. and never consider divorce. Understanding and recognizing that divorce is possible helps people to work and make the conscious decision every day to be with the person they married- not to just give up and live in misery.

I am in no way encouraging divorce. I agree people often don't take marriage seriously. My BF and I are not engaged and we won't be for a while. We live together and we've spent the last years learning about each other and figuring out where we want to go in life. Hopefully we will get married one day because we do want to spend our lives together. If we do get married one day, I will fight for our relationship every day because it is not about coasting through or ignoring realities of life like divorce, sickness, and other unpredictable things.

I feel extremely sad for anyone who would spend the rest of their life miserable because they are just unwilling to admit or recognize the reality of their situation.

Have you guys heard of this?!

Re: Have you guys heard of this?!

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