Wedding Etiquette Forum

PPDs At Engaged Encounter Weekend

FI and I went to a Catholic Engaged Encounter retreat this weekend. For those non-Catholics, it is part of the required prep for getting married in the church and it is fairly in-depth- took the entire weekend, it's a lot of counseling and prep. 

Anyway, we were sitting down with another couple at lunch chatting about honeymoons and they were like "oh, we're not going anywhere for a honeymoon, we've been together for 12 years and actually eloped a few years ago. We are just doing this so we can have the whole church and reception thing." I almost choked on my lunch.

Then FI found out his roommate for the weekend was ALSO already married! So out of 30 couples, at least 2 had been married already. I was appalled. 
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Re: PPDs At Engaged Encounter Weekend

  • lc07lc07 Sunny Southern California member
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    edited January 2014
    Is the weekend retreat required for a convalidation? I can see why it would be important for some people to get back into good standing with their faith and convalidate. Maybe they're required to attend as well. We did a convalidation and invited 10 people. We held a reception afterwards to thank them for coming but it was just dinner at a nearby restaurant.

    ETA: Our convalidation took place in the Greek Orthodox Church after a civil ceremony months prior which is why I'm not sure about the Catholic rules. We were not required to do any counseling prior. 
    melbelleupAmyzen83
  • lyndausvilyndausvi Western Slope, Colorado mod
    Moderator Knottie Warrior 10000 Comments 500 Love Its
    As far as I know pre-cana is required to get married in the catholic church. The fact there was a legal wedding is irrelevant to the church.    So I'm not really surprised.   

    Now the question is are the lying to their family and friends?






    What differentiates an average host and a great host is anticipating unexpressed needs and wants of their guests.  Just because the want/need is not expressed, doesn't mean it wouldn't be appreciated. 
    melbelleup
  • sarahuflsarahufl New York member
    Tenth Anniversary 2500 Comments 500 Love Its First Answer
    Good points, actually. I know the one couple was not telling their friends (I believe their parents knew), but they mentioned wanting the whole "fluffy dress, big party" thing. I don't know what the other couple's situation was.
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  • The only thing that bothers me is the "for the whole church and reception thing" quote, if that's what they really said.

    I have no problem with a couple deciding they want the church to recognize their marriage, and getting a convalidation, but I would hope it's not just so that they can get a PPD redo in a nice church and reception hall.  That's gross.

    Also, I think a lot of parishes would require convalidations to go through the same kind of marriage prep as a regular engaged couple.

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    NYCBruin[Deleted User]OliveOilsMommelbelleup
  • lc07lc07 Sunny Southern California member
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    Yeah, a convalidation is definitely not a wedding. So "fluffy dress, big party" definitely gets an eye-roll from me.
    PrettyGirlLostAmyzen83
  • Ditto PPs -- if they want a convalidation (i.e., having their union recognised by the Catholic Church), they'll have to do pre-Cana and the Engaged Encounter. The Church doesn't care how long you've been married or the circumstances for which you got married -- it's going to make you go through all the necessary pre-wedding steps, including all the encounters and retreats and prep classes.

    So, if they're doing that and they're being up-front with their friends and family about it, I'm OK with that, because it's a step to have their marriage recognised in the Church. But if/when they do, they should have a small ceremony (family and close friends only) and a very modest reception, not a big blow-out shin-dig.
    Anniversary

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    I'm gonna go with 'not my circus, not my monkeys.'
  • PrettyGirlLostPrettyGirlLost A Land Filled with Unicorns and Cat Hair member
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    lyndausvi said:
    As far as I know pre-cana is required to get married in the catholic church. The fact there was a legal wedding is irrelevant to the church.    So I'm not really surprised.   

    Now the question is are the lying to their family and friends?
    Yes, but you are not required to do the Engaged Encounter.  If your diocese offer diocesan or parish pre cana classes you can do those instead.  That's what we are doing as the Engaged Encounter is almost $300 ><

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


  • sarahuflsarahufl New York member
    Tenth Anniversary 2500 Comments 500 Love Its First Answer
    Good points, actually. I know the one couple was not telling their friends (I believe their parents knew), but they mentioned wanting the whole "fluffy dress, big party" thing. I don't know what the other couple's situation was.
    How does someone reconcile receiving the Sacrament of Marriage while lying?

    honestly, I think this was the part that bugged me the most.
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  • sarahuflsarahufl New York member
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    lyndausvi said:
    As far as I know pre-cana is required to get married in the catholic church. The fact there was a legal wedding is irrelevant to the church.    So I'm not really surprised.   

    Now the question is are the lying to their family and friends?
    Yes, but you are not required to do the Engaged Encounter.  If your diocese offer diocesan or parish pre cana classes you can do those instead.  That's what we are doing as the Engaged Encounter is almost $300 ><
    We chose Engaged Encounter because it worked better for our schedules. But we could have done pre-cana classes as well. It just took, like, 5 weeks.
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  • OK, yeah, lying? Not cool.

    My cousin and his wife are doing EE and pre-Cana (they got married by her pastor), they're having his parents (my aunt and uncle), her parents, their siblings, and I think grandparents to the church for the convalidation ceremony, and then they're all going out to eat afterwards, but everyone involved knows that this isn't a "wedding."
    Anniversary

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    I'm gonna go with 'not my circus, not my monkeys.'
  • PrettyGirlLostPrettyGirlLost A Land Filled with Unicorns and Cat Hair member
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    sarahufl said:
    lyndausvi said:
    As far as I know pre-cana is required to get married in the catholic church. The fact there was a legal wedding is irrelevant to the church.    So I'm not really surprised.   

    Now the question is are the lying to their family and friends?
    Yes, but you are not required to do the Engaged Encounter.  If your diocese offer diocesan or parish pre cana classes you can do those instead.  That's what we are doing as the Engaged Encounter is almost $300 ><
    We chose Engaged Encounter because it worked better for our schedules. But we could have done pre-cana classes as well. It just took, like, 5 weeks.
    Oh wow.  Ours is a few hours on Friday night and Saturday during the day.

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


  • lyndausvilyndausvi Western Slope, Colorado mod
    Moderator Knottie Warrior 10000 Comments 500 Love Its
    lyndausvi said:
    As far as I know pre-cana is required to get married in the catholic church. The fact there was a legal wedding is irrelevant to the church.    So I'm not really surprised.   

    Now the question is are the lying to their family and friends?
    Yes, but you are not required to do the Engaged Encounter.  If your diocese offer diocesan or parish pre cana classes you can do those instead.  That's what we are doing as the Engaged Encounter is almost $300 ><
    You just don't know people's schedule.   My DH works nights and most weekends.  It would be easier for him to take off 1 weekend then commit to weekly classes.

    Also just because you are already married doesn't mean you can't benefit from the weekend.









    What differentiates an average host and a great host is anticipating unexpressed needs and wants of their guests.  Just because the want/need is not expressed, doesn't mean it wouldn't be appreciated. 
  • sarahuflsarahufl New York member
    Tenth Anniversary 2500 Comments 500 Love Its First Answer
    lyndausvi said:
    lyndausvi said:
    As far as I know pre-cana is required to get married in the catholic church. The fact there was a legal wedding is irrelevant to the church.    So I'm not really surprised.   

    Now the question is are the lying to their family and friends?
    Yes, but you are not required to do the Engaged Encounter.  If your diocese offer diocesan or parish pre cana classes you can do those instead.  That's what we are doing as the Engaged Encounter is almost $300 ><
    You just don't know people's schedule.   My DH works nights and most weekends.  It would be easier for him to take off 1 weekend then commit to weekly classes.

    Also just because you are already married doesn't mean you can't benefit from the weekend.



    They actually have weekends for married couples as well. And yes, I agree that couples could probably get a lot out of one.
    image
  • PrettyGirlLostPrettyGirlLost A Land Filled with Unicorns and Cat Hair member
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    lyndausvi said:
    lyndausvi said:
    As far as I know pre-cana is required to get married in the catholic church. The fact there was a legal wedding is irrelevant to the church.    So I'm not really surprised.   

    Now the question is are the lying to their family and friends?
    Yes, but you are not required to do the Engaged Encounter.  If your diocese offer diocesan or parish pre cana classes you can do those instead.  That's what we are doing as the Engaged Encounter is almost $300 ><
    You just don't know people's schedule.   My DH works nights and most weekends.  It would be easier for him to take off 1 weekend then commit to weekly classes.

    Also just because you are already married doesn't mean you can't benefit from the weekend.



    Yeah we aren't doing a multi week class. . . it's a Friday night and then a few more hours the following Saturday, so it is a weekend class but not as long or expensive as Engaged Encounters.

    My point was just that EE is a type of pre-cana course, but it's not the only type.

    I have no idea what the requirements are for convalidation.

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


  • HaileyDancingbearHaileyDancingbear Arkham Asylum member
    500 Love Its 1000 Comments First Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited January 2014
    I feel like if someone's going to have a PPD the least they could do is just be upfront and honest about it with their guests.  It grinds my gears a bit when someone is really adamantly insisting it isn't rude, but also isn't honest about it with their family- if you're so convinced it's not rude and it won't offend anyone, then why are you trying so hard to hide it from them?  If it's really no problem and perfectly ok then you should just be able to tell everyone.  
    I kinda disregard any pro PPD argument the second they mention not telling their families.  If they're not even confident enough in their argument that it won't offend anyone to tell their guests, why should I be confident enough in their argument to pay it any mind?  
    Of course no PPD is the best (I mean, is it really SO HORRIBLE to just have a reception later? that's the more fun part of the day for the guests anyways) 
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    NYCBruincrunchymamaof2
  • lc07lc07 Sunny Southern California member
    2500 Comments Fifth Anniversary 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    I feel like if someone's going to have a PPD the least they could do is just be upfront and honest about it with their guests.  It grinds my gears a bit when someone is really adamantly insisting it isn't rude, but also isn't honest about it with their family- if you're so convinced it's not rude and it won't offend anyone, then why are you trying so hard to hide it from them?  If it's really no problem and perfectly ok then you should just be able to tell everyone.  
    I kinda disregard any pro PPD argument the second they mention not telling their families.  If they're not even confident enough in their argument that it won't offend anyone to tell their guests, why should I be confident enough in their argument to pay it any mind?  
    Of course no PPD is the best (I mean, is it really SO HORRIBLE to just have a reception later? that's the more fun part of the day for the guests anyways) 
    I truly enjoy seeing my loved ones commit themselves in the ceremony. That's why I was happy to travel abroad for a friend's wedding. But it wasn't worth it to me to travel across the country for a friend's AHR. I want the real deal and the ceremony is really important to a lot of guests. 
    sarahufl
  • monkeysip said:
    The only thing that bothers me is the "for the whole church and reception thing" quote, if that's what they really said.

    I have no problem with a couple deciding they want the church to recognize their marriage, and getting a convalidation, but I would hope it's not just so that they can get a PPD redo in a nice church and reception hall.  That's gross.

    Also, I think a lot of parishes would require convalidations to go through the same kind of marriage prep as a regular engaged couple.
    Yes, to this.  Yuck.  My grandparents eloped.  Then they were married privately in the Church.  There was no big dress, cake, or grand reception.  There was no reception at all.  Having the Church recognize your marriage does not mean you have to have a PPD
  • HaileyDancingbearHaileyDancingbear Arkham Asylum member
    500 Love Its 1000 Comments First Anniversary Name Dropper
    lc07 said:
    I feel like if someone's going to have a PPD the least they could do is just be upfront and honest about it with their guests.  It grinds my gears a bit when someone is really adamantly insisting it isn't rude, but also isn't honest about it with their family- if you're so convinced it's not rude and it won't offend anyone, then why are you trying so hard to hide it from them?  If it's really no problem and perfectly ok then you should just be able to tell everyone.  
    I kinda disregard any pro PPD argument the second they mention not telling their families.  If they're not even confident enough in their argument that it won't offend anyone to tell their guests, why should I be confident enough in their argument to pay it any mind?  
    Of course no PPD is the best (I mean, is it really SO HORRIBLE to just have a reception later? that's the more fun part of the day for the guests anyways) 
    I truly enjoy seeing my loved ones commit themselves in the ceremony. That's why I was happy to travel abroad for a friend's wedding. But it wasn't worth it to me to travel across the country for a friend's AHR. I want the real deal and the ceremony is really important to a lot of guests. 
    Yeah, I wouldn't expect anyone to do much traveling for just a reception.  I imagine people wouldn't be quite so happy to travel for a PPD either, since it's seeing them actually get married that's the appealing part.   I didn't do the best job phrasing the bolded- I didn't mean to imply that the ceremony itself wasn't important. 
    I was just thinking along the lines of if the ceremony is just a do-over and they're not actually getting married because they were married already, then the reception is the only part of that day that's any fun.  The main reason the ceremony is enjoyable is because you're watching them get married, without that it's just listening to someone drone on for a while.
    image
    NYCBruin
  • lc07lc07 Sunny Southern California member
    2500 Comments Fifth Anniversary 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    edited January 2014
    lc07 said:
    I feel like if someone's going to have a PPD the least they could do is just be upfront and honest about it with their guests.  It grinds my gears a bit when someone is really adamantly insisting it isn't rude, but also isn't honest about it with their family- if you're so convinced it's not rude and it won't offend anyone, then why are you trying so hard to hide it from them?  If it's really no problem and perfectly ok then you should just be able to tell everyone.  
    I kinda disregard any pro PPD argument the second they mention not telling their families.  If they're not even confident enough in their argument that it won't offend anyone to tell their guests, why should I be confident enough in their argument to pay it any mind?  
    Of course no PPD is the best (I mean, is it really SO HORRIBLE to just have a reception later? that's the more fun part of the day for the guests anyways) 
    I truly enjoy seeing my loved ones commit themselves in the ceremony. That's why I was happy to travel abroad for a friend's wedding. But it wasn't worth it to me to travel across the country for a friend's AHR. I want the real deal and the ceremony is really important to a lot of guests. 
    Yeah, I wouldn't expect anyone to do much traveling for just a reception.  I imagine people wouldn't be quite so happy to travel for a PPD either, since it's seeing them actually get married that's the appealing part.   I didn't do the best job phrasing the bolded- I didn't mean to imply that the ceremony itself wasn't important. 
    I was just thinking along the lines of if the ceremony is just a do-over and they're not actually getting married because they were married already, then the reception is the only part of that day that's any fun.  The main reason the ceremony is enjoyable is because you're watching them get married, without that it's just listening to someone drone on for a while.
    I gotcha. That totally makes sense. You're right. If we're talking re-do wedding I don't want to see a fake ceremony. No point. Reception fine. I probably won't travel long distances for it. But you're right, the fakey ceremony isn't a draw for me. At all.

    Edited: making sense is hard while drinking wine.
    HaileyDancingbearMarzipan13
  • sarahufl said:
    "We are just doing this so we can have the whole church and reception thing."
    I feel like this is kind of a core statement illustrating what makes PPDs horrible.  There is no motivation here other than being the center of attention at a really big, elaborate party that means nothing.

    That is not to say that all convalidations mean nothing, but it seems like they should really be motivated by faith.
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  • I know when we were married we were told that the marriage ceremony wouldn't take place without a 0 marriage license. I can't imagine many priests being OK playing into the lie of omission.

    PrettyGirlLost
  • OliveOilsMomOliveOilsMom South Jersey member
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    Schatzi13 said:
    mobkaz said:
    Good points, actually. I know the one couple was not telling their friends (I believe their parents knew), but they mentioned wanting the whole "fluffy dress, big party" thing. I don't know what the other couple's situation was.
    How does someone reconcile receiving the Sacrament of Marriage while lying?
    Yes. This seems so wrong.

    Also, would the guests, or at least the Catholic guests, be able to tell that they are attending a convalidation and not a wedding? (I honestly do not know.)

    I believe that the vows would be the same, but I've never attended a convalidation - just a 50th anniversary vow renewal. 

    I would really hope that during the homily, the priest goes on and on about how he is so happy this couple (the ones who are lying) have decided to get their civil marriage recognized in the eyes of God.  Then any guest attending will know that they have been lied to.

    HisGirlFriday13PrettyGirlLostwrigleyvilleRebeccaB88
  • sarahuflsarahufl New York member
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    I have also never attended a convalidation so I honestly don't know what they include.
    image
  • This conversation makes me happy NC catholic only requires a one day workshop on Saturdays... we did ours back in Nov for our June wedding. Of course, we had to drive 2 hours one way to get there and this was the closest one to us... ooh perks!

    In PA you can either do engaged encounter for a weekend or go through it 5 days with a married couple from the church.
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  • lyndausvi said:
    As far as I know pre-cana is required to get married in the catholic church. The fact there was a legal wedding is irrelevant to the church.    So I'm not really surprised.   

    Now the question is are the lying to their family and friends?
    So legal weddings are spiritually irrelevant to some people...religious people...otherwise they wouldn't have had the second one. I'm just trying to follow the logic of The Knot. It gets so convoluted and ridden with double standards, it's so hard to follow, lol. Forgive me if i'm wrong, I'm not Catholic, but isn't convalidation a second, yet purely religious, wedding ceremony?

    And if you have yet to still celebrate your wedding by throwing a "big party," could not one follow the other? 
  • I'm just confused because my denomination does not offer convalidations, but people within the church still wish to have a religious ceremony in order to be wedded spiritually as well as legally. How is this any different? Why are these people considered to be having PPD's because their ceremony doesn't have a special name? 
  • Sabinus15 said:
    I'm just confused because my denomination does not offer convalidations, but people within the church still wish to have a religious ceremony in order to be wedded spiritually as well as legally. How is this any different? Why are these people considered to be having PPD's because their ceremony doesn't have a special name? 
    Because, at least in the United States, religious ceremonies are also legally binding. Therefore, it is pointless to go through the process twice when once is all that is required. And if the legal portion truly meant nothing to these people, they would not have done it in the first place and just married in their church without bothering to get a license.
    image
  • lyndausvilyndausvi Western Slope, Colorado mod
    Moderator Knottie Warrior 10000 Comments 500 Love Its
    edited January 2014

    Sabinus15 said:
    I'm just confused because my denomination does not offer convalidations, but people within the church still wish to have a religious ceremony in order to be wedded spiritually as well as legally. How is this any different? Why are these people considered to be having PPD's because their ceremony doesn't have a special name? 
    And this is why I'm self-proclaimed PPD-lite.    I can objectively recognize the difference between a religious ceremony and legal one.   To a religious person they should be equally important.  The religious one for spiritual reasons, the legal one for legal reason.    

    There a many countries in the world that require you to get both.   The US is not one of them, but I do get why people sometimes choose to have a legal one then a religious one (although I think only having one is best).

    That said, nothing pisses me more than people like STB who claim the legal one is not real.  So they lie to family and friends or worse they claim "it's only a piece of paper".   If it really was only a "piece of paper" they why even bother getting it?  Oh that's right, that piece of paper gives  you SPOUSAL RIGHTS.  You know, the rights LGBT are fighting so hard to get.

    I'm only speaking for myself here as it's not really popular on the TK, but if you are completely honest with me that you had a legal wedding and you do not think of that as "only a piece of paper" I am more apt to not care about your PPD.   Hey, what can I say? I like a good party. I do not like my feelings to be manipulated like a certain poster doesn't seem to have a problem doing to their family and friends.  






    What differentiates an average host and a great host is anticipating unexpressed needs and wants of their guests.  Just because the want/need is not expressed, doesn't mean it wouldn't be appreciated. 
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  • This drives me crazy! 

    My BF and I just received a STD for a wedding for a very good friend of his. Who also happened to get married in City Hall last January AND had a reception right after where they invited all their friends/family (including us), received gifts from people, and just genuinely celebrated! So their "real wedding" is scheduled for this May (it will be a full Catholic mass). To be fair, we've known they were planning this for a couple months now, but I kept hoping they might come to their senses. 
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