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Traditional Brides?

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Re: Traditional Brides?

  • Dang, no livestock is coming to us. Not a dowry. Now I want Dad to raise a few chickens just so I can be traditional.

    Blushers are prohibited as the church finds hiding your face to be going into a marriage to be potentially hiding yourself. I stopped paying attention because I didn't want to wear one, so it didn't make a big deal.
  • phiraphira member
    5000 Comments 500 Love Its Second Anniversary 5 Answers
    There's nothing I loathe more than people saying "I'm not a feminist." When a woman says it I die a little.
    OKAY RIGHT. I just don't even get it.
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  • kmmssg said:
    It only counts as a dowry if he throws in some goats and chickens.

    @QueerFemme - I truly never thought of the gender specific language. Thanks for your post - it has made me think differently about that. I will try in the future to be more inclusive in how I refer to a couple if I don't know their genders.
    The reason people don't typically think about gender specific language is because there is a distinct Hetero privilege and they are a Cisgender Hetero. I am too, but fortunately I have some amazing people in my life who have, gently, bopped me over the head with the reality of what they deal with day-to-day. The good news is you are open to learning and changing. 
  • Well, there's a difference between second and third wave feminism and the original idea of feminism. I am unfortunate enough to know a few girls who consider themselves feminists and are the women who scream at men on the streets for telling these women to have a good day or to 'smile'. They scream when men hold doors for them, or even speak to them assuming these men have interest in them. 
    If you look online-at tumblr and other blogging sites, it's unfortunate to see a large amount of this type of feminism running rampant. A large portion of women are considering themselves 'equalists' nowadays to avoid the stigma that 'social media feminism' (i did a HUGE paper on that last term) are creating for women.
    I don't blame her for not wanting to call herself a feminist. I don't want to be associated with that type of feminism either.
    This is not feminism. This is rudeness. Also, I've found that the women who assume all men are polite because the men are interested in the women are the women for whom that is wishful thinking, quite honestly.

    The OP, assuming she isn't a troll, is neither a feminist nor an equalist. She's a dark-ages misogynist who apparently believes possession of a penis makes you a better human being than possession of a vagina does.
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    I'm gonna go with 'not my circus, not my monkeys.'
  • Well, there's a difference between second and third wave feminism and the original idea of feminism. I am unfortunate enough to know a few girls who consider themselves feminists and are the women who scream at men on the streets for telling these women to have a good day or to 'smile'. They scream when men hold doors for them, or even speak to them assuming these men have interest in them. 
    If you look online-at tumblr and other blogging sites, it's unfortunate to see a large amount of this type of feminism running rampant. A large portion of women are considering themselves 'equalists' nowadays to avoid the stigma that 'social media feminism' (i did a HUGE paper on that last term) are creating for women.
    I don't blame her for not wanting to call herself a feminist. I don't want to be associated with that type of feminism either.


    To be fair, it is pretty fucking patronizing to tell a woman you don't know to smile. I will smile if I fucking want to smile, and any comments on how I'd "look prettier" if I smiled makes you a fucking sexist douchebag.
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  • Well, there's a difference between second and third wave feminism and the original idea of feminism. I am unfortunate enough to know a few girls who consider themselves feminists and are the women who scream at men on the streets for telling these women to have a good day or to 'smile'. They scream when men hold doors for them, or even speak to them assuming these men have interest in them. 
    If you look online-at tumblr and other blogging sites, it's unfortunate to see a large amount of this type of feminism running rampant. A large portion of women are considering themselves 'equalists' nowadays to avoid the stigma that 'social media feminism' (i did a HUGE paper on that last term) are creating for women.
    I don't blame her for not wanting to call herself a feminist. I don't want to be associated with that type of feminism either.

    This is not feminism. This is rudeness. Also, I've found that the women who assume all men are polite because the men are interested in the women are the women for whom that is wishful thinking, quite honestly.

    The OP, assuming she isn't a troll, is neither a feminist nor an equalist. She's a dark-ages misogynist who apparently believes possession of a penis makes you a better human being than possession of a vagina does.



    If I go purchase myself a penis, I am now in possession of both. What level of human am I?
  • All of this feminism talk makes me think of Mean Girls.

     







  • I tend to walk around smiling... :-)

    but completely agree @ClimbingBrideNY


    I almost want to tell some of these people that my dog just died or I just lost my job...
  • phiraphira member
    5000 Comments 500 Love Its Second Anniversary 5 Answers
    Men telling women to smile is sexual harassment. I mean, don't get me wrong: if it happens to you and it doesn't faze you or ruin your day, GOOD! I am in favor of not having your day ruined. But for many of us, it's uncomfortable at best, often degrading and infuriating, and at worst, it can be terrifying. I've been in situations where what could have been perceived as a totally harmless/complimentary interaction have been, in fact, unbelievably terrifying.

    Excellent feminist websites:

    Fuck Yeah Feminists: http://fuckyeahfeminists.com/

    This is a tumblr created and run by a friend of mine who does a lot of anti-violence work, as well as reproductive rights work. Sometimes, she's got articles; other times, just an image or comic; sometimes just short messages; sometimes, questions from readers. It's a favorite of mine because I like getting the mixture of different kinds of posts, and she updates super frequently.


    This is probably my favorite progressive feminist website. There's a lot of shoot-the-shit posts (daily dose of cute animal photos, for example), but the blogger and contributors are all incredibly sharp and insightful. There are also TONS of "Feminism 101" posts that deal with various issues.

    Some good posts that touch on the smiling issue are HERE, HERE, HERE, and HERE

    Shakesville is not exactly for the newbie-to-feminism, since it can inspire som very defensive feelings at first. However, I still highly recommend it because of the no-bullshit, no-couching-the-language take-downs of misogyny, racism, and other institutional prejudices.

    Also, they do The Walking Dead recaps.


    If you are a more visual person, and/or you like lots of examples of sexism, heterosexism, racism, classism, etc. when you're looking for progressive analysis, this is a great site. They occasionally do round-ups, especially around holidays (like Valentine's Day or Mother's Day), in case you've missed some choice posts over the months/years.

    There's always Feministing.com as well, but I haven't been reading them for a while, so I can't really recommend them (not because they suck, but because I don't read them anymore, so I can't comment on the content).

    I do not recommend Jezebel :\ Sometimes, they nail a situation, but more frequently, it's just really not very progressive.
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  • @abbyj700 Lately I have been saying "stand on one foot." I figure if we are just telling strangers what to do I'll start doing it back. The difference, of course, is that I am rarely physically intimidating to a man. So Its easy for me to say a smart comment back in public, etc, but I won't do it alone. And the type of guy to tell you to smile knows that. Telling a woman to smile is so patronizing. Here is all you need to realize- who gets wished a good day? Everyone. Who get's told to smile? Women.

    Also, people who say they don't want to be associated with "bad feminists" or "mean feminists." I had felt that way in the past, I agree that there are crazy people who are also feminists. But there are crazy people who are a lot of things that I am (catholic, christian, a woman, from my town) I don't say I am not a woman just because some woman are murders or bad people.

    @queerfemme I refreshed my page before I posted and tried to like your comment, but realized I already had. tried to double like it.


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  • The smiling thing pisses me off because it's definitely more expected from women than men. For example, when I worked at a restaurant I was constantly reprimanded for not smiling enough/not being super bubbly (mind you- I don't walk around looking pissed. At worst, I look like I'm concentrating on getting an order correct).

    Yet I look around and see male servers that aren't smiling. They come across as being matter-of-fact and business-like. As a woman I come across as being curt, rude, cold, and uncaring- less feminine, basically. This applies to a lot of situations, not just work. 

    A more extreme example was not so much about smiling but owing conversation was a blog that I can't seem to find now. A woman wrote about an experience on a Subway where she was reading a book and a guy started hitting on her and she ignored him and he flipped his shit and screamed at her and threatened her. More extreme but sort of the same idea- that as women we need to be super warm and inviting to everyone and owe conversation, smiles, etc. 

    "have a nice day" is totally different and is just pleasant discourse. Telling someone that they have the wrong facial expression on is not. 
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  • FiancB said:
    The smiling thing pisses me off because it's definitely more expected from women than men. For example, when I worked at a restaurant I was constantly reprimanded for not smiling enough/not being super bubbly (mind you- I don't walk around looking pissed. At worst, I look like I'm concentrating on getting an order correct).

    Yet I look around and see male servers that aren't smiling. They come across as being matter-of-fact and business-like. As a woman I come across as being curt, rude, cold, and uncaring- less feminine, basically. This applies to a lot of situations, not just work. 

    A more extreme example was not so much about smiling but owing conversation was a blog that I can't seem to find now. A woman wrote about an experience on a Subway where she was reading a book and a guy started hitting on her and she ignored him and he flipped his shit and screamed at her and threatened her. More extreme but sort of the same idea- that as women we need to be super warm and inviting to everyone and owe conversation, smiles, etc. 

    "have a nice day" is totally different and is just pleasant discourse. Telling someone that they have the wrong facial expression on is not. 

    @FiancB When I was a waitress I was told to smile constantly. Apparently I have a bitchy face otherwise. I'm all like "I can't help it. That's how my face is." And I had customers tell me this! I just told them that it hurt to smile all the time and made a point  not smile the rest of their visit lol

  • @shrekspeare I usually agree with you, but not on the smiling thing.  Usually when this happens to me, it's on the subway or in the subway station (confined quarters).  He leans up close and says, "Why don't you smile?" and then gives me a look head to toe.  It's not just patronizing, it's harassing and creepy.  Same thing as when a man leans in really close in my ear and says something like, "You're so beautiful" or whatever.  When written down these things might sound friendly or innocuous, but these men are exploiting the power differential to make me feel like I'm just there as the object of their gaze, for their pleasure.

    Meanwhile, if a man sits down next to me on the train, asks me what I'm reading or where I'm headed, chit chats, and then tells me to have a good day-- that could be a totally friendly and not creepy conversation.  It's all about the way it's done, whether the guy is being intimidating or legitimately trying to be nice or strike up a conversation.  Heck, I've been asked out on the subway in ways that did not feel objectifying and actually made me feel flattered.  It's all in the way it's approached.  Want to talk to me like a human being?  Sure.  Want to tell me to smile, on the assumption I'll look prettier to you?  No.

    I don't advocate screaming at people just for holding a door or talking to you at all.  That's just rude and nasty.  But we shouldn't feel trapped by expectations of politeness either.  My usual response is to either say no, walk away if I can, or completely ignore. And stop from automatically smiling, which is actually hard to do.
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    "I'm not a rude bitch.  I'm ten rude bitches in a large coat."

  • phira said:
    ... has anyone actually seen someone scream at someone else for holding the door open? I always thank people for holding the door open for me.
    No and it's probably just a trope.  But I sort of love the idea there is someplace, somewhere full of angry screaming feminists and bewildered men holding open doors.
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    "I'm not a rude bitch.  I'm ten rude bitches in a large coat."

  • phira said:
    ... has anyone actually seen someone scream at someone else for holding the door open? I always thank people for holding the door open for me.
    Same here.  In fact I get pissed when people (man or woman) see that I am coming and make no effort at all to hold the door for me.  It is called manners and being polite.

    And if anyone, man or woman, tells me I need to smile I just want to slap them.  I have, what they now call, a bitchy resting face.  Always have, always will and smiling when I am not in the mood looks completely fake and ridiculous.  I also find people that walk around smiling all the time to be kind of weird (sorry to anyone who does that).

  • This whole 'smile' thing is giving me a migraine. All I will say is that it IS rude and patronising, as many have already confirmed.

    If I say anything further, I'll never stop ranting.


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  • All this talk about feminism reminds me of a conversation with a friend. I mentioned that I was a feminist (I like voting, driving and earning as much as my male coworkers) but she completely shutdown the minute I even uttered the word. To her it's a dirty word comprising of females who have no morals or females who likes to burn bras. I was astounded since I am neither of those things. I wish that word didn't provoke such a negative reaction to some people.
  • phiraphira member
    5000 Comments 500 Love Its Second Anniversary 5 Answers
    edited March 2014
    No and it's probably just a trope.  But I sort of love the idea there is someplace, somewhere full of angry screaming feminists and bewildered men holding open doors.
    Legitimately laughing out loud at work right now. Amazing mental image.

    @shrekspeare No problem! I'd say Shakesville is one of the best blogs I've ever read, and it's consistently interesting and engaging. That said, it wasn't my introduction to a lot of feminist ideas (I have a degree in Women's Studies), but it definitely strives to be as inclusive and progressive as possible. The same can't really be said about every women's studies class I took.
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