Questions from a non-Catholic about a Catholic ceromony

holyguacamole79 · September 2014

happy2016 said:

A lot of the couples in our Catholic marriage prep were already living together and taking BC. The church doesn't condone it, but I got a feeling that they were less judgmental about it these days. They did spend time talking about NFP rather than hormonal BC.

We had to promise, on the altar, in front of our family and friends, that we would embrace children and raise them in the church. I would say that this isn't a time to fudge things and say them just so you can have the church wedding your FI wants. You should meet with the priest, find out what sort of ceremony you can have, and decide for yourself if you are comfortable with it.

If you are not comfortable with the strings attached to a Catholic mass (which, trust me, there are some) you should figure out an alternative option.
What strings are attached to a catholic mass?

Read through the post. This happens immediately before your vows during a Catholic wedding:

N. and N., have you come here freely and without reservation to give yourselves to each other in marriage?

Will you love and honor each other as husband and wife for the rest of your lives?

Will you accept children lovingly from God and bring them up according to the Law of Love and Compassion?

Since it is your intention to enter into marriage, with your hands joined, declare your consent before God and his Church, this community of your family and friends.

happy2016 · September 2014

Question. If you want the question about children changed or omitted, can't you just request that? Every denomination alters their ceremony to adjust to the individual couples preferences. Aren't the catholic ceremonies the same? all catholic weddings can't possibly be verbatim

holyguacamole79 · September 2014

happy2016 said:

Question. If you want the question about children changed or omitted, can't you just request that? Every denomination alters their ceremony to adjust to the individual couples preferences. Aren't the catholic ceremonies the same? all catholic weddings can't possibly be verbatim

You must not have attended many Catholic Masses.

. Most of our rituals and Sacraments are word-for-word. There are actually pre-printed prayers that the priest follows every Sunday (and ALL priests are to follow them).

There are SOME variations ... For example, a couple can exchange vows or they can have the priest / deacon read them and the bride / groom say "I do". http://www.foryourmarriage.org/the-marriage-vows/

But, for the most part, there are no substitutions. And accepting children in marriage is a big deal, so I don't see how any priest would omit that.

holyguacamole79 · September 2014

happy2016 said:

Jbee85 - You said there is a lot of preparation. What preparation is there that is different or more involved then typical churh weddings in other denominations? Just curious.

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I'm happy to weigh in. I don't know what other churches require when it comes to marriage prep. But, I don't know many that require any marriage prep at all. When my husband and I got married, we completed the FOCCUS inventory. Me then reviewed out answers with the deacon (we took 4-5 meetings to do this). We also met with a Sponsor Couple.

The prep was actually really helpful. It's not something where the Church scrutinizes or judges you - it is an avenue for you to continue to discern. The deacon who prepared us said he only had reservations about one couple. He said that the two of them figured at out for themselves and called off the wedding.

IrishPirate60 · September 2014

I'm pretty sure the presiding priest or deacon would omit the question if, for instance, the couple were not able to have children because they were too old or if it was not medically possible. There are many ways to be "open to children" without actually producing one of one's own.

holyguacamole79 · September 2014

IrishPirate60 said:

I'm pretty sure the presiding priest or deacon would omit the question if, for instance, the couple were not able to have children because they were too old or if it was not medically possible. There are many ways to be "open to children" without actually producing one of one's own.

Even still, I'm not sure if that would be appropriate. A couple with infertility or age is still called to be open to children even though biology dictates that it's not a possibility. I could be wrong, though. I'd be really curious to find out about this, though (only because I'm a geek when it comes to this kind of stuff).

happy2016 · September 2014

I'm curious too. I just can't imagine it being all or nothing. Catholic Churches have come so far in accepting or turning a blind eye to couples living together before marriage, using birth control. Etc. Yet they can't accept that a couple may not want to have kids for whatever the reason. Just seems strange. You don't have to have children to have a loving, healthy and complete marriage.

lightningsnow · September 2014

happy2016 said:

I'm curious too. I just can't imagine it being all or nothing. Catholic Churches have come so far in accepting or turning a blind eye to couples living together before marriage, using birth control. Etc. Yet they can't accept that a couple may not want to have kids for whatever the reason. Just seems strange. You don't have to have children to have a loving, healthy and complete marriage.

I agree. However, the Catholic Church firmly believes that a marriage is just a part of procreation. It is what lessons in the Catholic Church are heavy with. It is why they define a marriage as being between a man and a woman. It is solely for procreation.

holyguacamole79 · September 2014

happy2016 said:

I'm curious too. I just can't imagine it being all or nothing. Catholic Churches have come so far in accepting or turning a blind eye to couples living together before marriage, using birth control. Etc. Yet they can't accept that a couple may not want to have kids for whatever the reason. Just seems strange. You don't have to have children to have a loving, healthy and complete marriage.

Cohabitation is not a sin in itself. It gives the impression that a couple is sexually active outside of the marriage covenant, which is the issue. Artificial birth control is still a mortal sin, and the depth of discussion regarding your family planning will depend on the priest / deacon.

Openness to children is a biggie for Catholic marriage. Check out the Catechism:

* The openness to fertility

1652 "By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory."¹⁶²

Children are the supreme gift of marriage and contribute greatly to the good of the parents themselves. God himself said: "It is not good that man should be alone," and "from the beginning [he] made them male and female"; wishing to associate them in a special way in his own creative work, God blessed man and woman with the words: "Be fruitful and multiply." Hence, true married love and the whole structure of family life which results from it, without diminishment of the other ends of marriage, are directed to disposing the spouses to cooperate valiantly with the love of the Creator and Savior, who through them will increase and enrich his family from day to day.¹⁶³

1653 The fruitfulness of conjugal love extends to the fruits of the moral, spiritual, and supernatural life that parents hand on to their children by education. Parents are the principal and first educators of their children.¹⁶⁴ In this sense the fundamental task of marriage and family is to be at the service of life.¹⁶⁵

1654 Spouses to whom God has not granted children can nevertheless have a conjugal life full of meaning, in both human and Christian terms. Their marriage can radiate a fruitfulness of charity, of hospitality, and of sacrifice.

FWIW, my husband and I have been married for a year and a half and don't have children. I have PCOS pretty badly and we just have not been able to conceive yet. We are absolutely open to children; we just have physical impediments right now.

I'd encourage you to read some Theology of the Body to better understand what the church teaches about sex and marriage. I have a feeling the stipulation that @irishpirate60 mentioned may not be the case for you & your FI. I can all but guarantee that a priest / deacon will not omit from the marriage rite.

holyguacamole79 · September 2014

lightningsnow said:

happy2016 said:

I'm curious too. I just can't imagine it being all or nothing. Catholic Churches have come so far in accepting or turning a blind eye to couples living together before marriage, using birth control. Etc. Yet they can't accept that a couple may not want to have kids for whatever the reason. Just seems strange. You don't have to have children to have a loving, healthy and complete marriage.

I agree. However, the Catholic Church firmly believes that a marriage is just a part of procreation. It is what lessons in the Catholic Church are heavy with. It is why they define a marriage as being between a man and a woman. It is solely for procreation.

That is not accurate at all. Marriage is a sacrament that is intended to foreshadow the free, total, fruitful, and faithful union of God and Jesus. See my post above. There is a moderate chance that DH and I may not be able to have children. It is not something that we have done with the intent of not having kids. We are also still able to consummate our marriage, and our marriage is still just as much a sacrament as those couples who have several kids.

lightningsnow · September 2014

sarahbear31 said:

lightningsnow said:

happy2016 said:

I'm curious too. I just can't imagine it being all or nothing. Catholic Churches have come so far in accepting or turning a blind eye to couples living together before marriage, using birth control. Etc. Yet they can't accept that a couple may not want to have kids for whatever the reason. Just seems strange. You don't have to have children to have a loving, healthy and complete marriage.

I agree. However, the Catholic Church firmly believes that a marriage is just a part of procreation. It is what lessons in the Catholic Church are heavy with. It is why they define a marriage as being between a man and a woman. It is solely for procreation.

That is not accurate at all. Marriage is a sacrament that is intended to foreshadow the free, total, fruitful, and faithful union of God and Jesus. See my post above. There is a moderate chance that DH and I may not be able to have children. It is not something that we have done with the intent of not having kids. We are also still able to consummate our marriage, and our marriage is still just as much a sacrament as those couples who have several kids.

But in your post above it also mentions the following:
By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory

Now I may have been off with what I stated as I am not a Catholic and do not follow what is taught now. I do know that was the Church's stance for a long time and as far as I know, it still is.

If I was off in that though, I do apologize. However, that was always my assumption in regards to children and the Catholic Church.

holyguacamole79 · September 2014

lightningsnow said:

sarahbear31 said:

lightningsnow said:

happy2016 said:

I'm curious too. I just can't imagine it being all or nothing. Catholic Churches have come so far in accepting or turning a blind eye to couples living together before marriage, using birth control. Etc. Yet they can't accept that a couple may not want to have kids for whatever the reason. Just seems strange. You don't have to have children to have a loving, healthy and complete marriage.

I agree. However, the Catholic Church firmly believes that a marriage is just a part of procreation. It is what lessons in the Catholic Church are heavy with. It is why they define a marriage as being between a man and a woman. It is solely for procreation.

That is not accurate at all. Marriage is a sacrament that is intended to foreshadow the free, total, fruitful, and faithful union of God and Jesus. See my post above. There is a moderate chance that DH and I may not be able to have children. It is not something that we have done with the intent of not having kids. We are also still able to consummate our marriage, and our marriage is still just as much a sacrament as those couples who have several kids.

But in your post above it also mentions the following:
By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory

Now I may have been off with what I stated as I am not a Catholic and do not follow what is taught now. I do know that was the Church's stance for a long time and as far as I know, it still is.

If I was off in that though, I do apologize. However, that was always my assumption in regards to children and the Catholic Church.

A marriage must be ordered towards having children, meaning a couple needs to be open to it. What I object to in your post do the idea that "it is solely for procreation." That part is inaccurate. If a couple wants to get married in the Catholic Church and simply does not want children, then that is a major issue. But if a couple is unable to have children, then there is no issue as long as they are able to consummate the marriage. I hope that helps!

lightningsnow · September 2014

@sarahbear31 Yes that does help! Thank you. Like I stated, I was under the assumption that was what the Church believed a marriage was for. Perhaps I'm confusing my religions.

This is why I prefer not to have a religion though I respect those who believe in whatever religion. After all, BF is a Catholic.

holyguacamole79 · September 2014

According to this, the part about accepting children can be omitted if the couple is past child-bearing years (http://catholicweddinghelp.com/questions/rules-requirements.htm). I have a feeling that isn't the case for @happy2016, though.

holyguacamole79 · September 2014

lightningsnow said:

@sarahbear31 Yes that does help! Thank you. Like I stated, I was under the assumption that was what the Church believed a marriage was for. Perhaps I'm confusing my religions.

This is why I prefer not to have a religion though I respect those who believe in whatever religion. After all, BF is a Catholic.

Well, it is definitely meant to be one of the primary fruits of marriage. But, it certainly isn't the only thing. You may also be thinking about what the Church teaches about sex. The Church teaches that sex needs to have two aspects - unitive and procreative. Meaning, sex needs to be open to children and should also bring the couple closet together in love.

happy2016 · September 2014

I don't view birth control in a bad light either. I don't agree with the Catholic Church on birth control. And they often marry people who are on birth control, we all know the church does that. I just think the church perhaps involves itself in aspects that it shouldn't within a relationship. Some things are just between the couple (like whether they want children) or just between the couple and the doctor prescribing the birth control.

holyguacamole79 · September 2014

happy2016 said:

I don't view birth control in a bad light either. I don't agree with the Catholic Church on birth control. And they often marry people who are on birth control, we all know the church does that. I just think the church perhaps involves itself in aspects that it shouldn't within a relationship. Some things are just between the couple (like whether they want children) or just between the couple and the doctor prescribing the birth control.

Many people don't realize this about Catholic marriage - it is NOT just between the couple. It is a public sacrament that is meant to be lived in the community. There are many aspects to a Catholic marriage, especially including the willingness to be open to children.

If you and your fiancé are not truthfully able to agree to what the Catholic Church teaches regarding marriage, then maybe it's not for you.

I guarantee you the priest / deacon preparing you for marriage will ask you and your fiancé about your openness to having children. If you are not open to this, there will be major issues.

laceykeo · September 2014

I follow no particular religion.
When it comes up in conversation, I simply say I am not religious, as that's easiest, although I suppose there are small aspects from various different religions that I hold to in everyday life.
I know very little about religion as a whole, in that I would struggle to name pretty much every religions deity, or explain the fundamentals of each one.

All that said...

I do find religious conversation interesting, when it comes to discussing/explaining different understandings.

I mostly just wanted to say how much I've enjoyed reading this thread, seeing an argument based on religion unfold and being argued in the genuine adult sense of calm discussion and explanation, rather than "no, you're wrong, THIS is what you have to believe... My faith is the one right faith blah blah blah".
You ladies have made this thread a genuine informative joy to read.

Just wanted to express my thanks.

banana468 · September 2014

sarahbear31 said:

happy2016 said:

I don't view birth control in a bad light either. I don't agree with the Catholic Church on birth control. And they often marry people who are on birth control, we all know the church does that. I just think the church perhaps involves itself in aspects that it shouldn't within a relationship. Some things are just between the couple (like whether they want children) or just between the couple and the doctor prescribing the birth control.

Many people don't realize this about Catholic marriage - it is NOT just between the couple. It is a public sacrament that is meant to be lived in the community. There are many aspects to a Catholic marriage, especially including the willingness to be open to children.

If you and your fiancé are not truthfully able to agree to what the Catholic Church teaches regarding marriage, then maybe it's not for you.

I guarantee you the priest / deacon preparing you for marriage will ask you and your fiancé about your openness to having children. If you are not open to this, there will be major issues.

To add to this, the Church doesn't ask if you're actively sinning. You could be on birth control, engaging in premarital sex, using the pullout method, hiding in plain sight from a murder rap or beating old ladies in your spare time. If you don't admit to these things the priest will probably never think to ask about them. However they ARE all sins.

If you aren't willing to accept children at that is against one of the major elements of a valid marriage. If you lie about it and say yes just to marry in the Church it's grounds for an annulment. When you marry in the Catholic Church, you union is part of the community.

happy2016 · September 2014

I have a question. I found the prenuptial questionnaire on a catholic church's website and one of the first questions it asks is do you have a prenup and if so, you have to provide the church with a copy of this.

Why are they asking for that? That seems like it wouldn't be anything the church would ask for.... it has to do with property, finances, etc...

Thoughts?

holyguacamole79 · September 2014

A prenuptial agreement often addresses the question of "What if we get divorced?" While divorce is an ugly reality, there can be issues if a couple enters into a Catholic marriage sacrament with this mindset. I remember during our FOCCUS, there was a section regarding marriage as a sacrament. It discussed the fact that you are entering into a covenant. Here's a good explanation -http://www.americancatholic.org/samo/ask-a-franciscan.aspx?IssueID=33. (Also, according to this link, the part regarding accepting children can be omitted if the couple is past child bearing years - @IrishPirate60‌)

[Deleted User] · September 2014

happy2016 said:

I have a question. I found the prenuptial questionnaire on a catholic church's website and one of the first questions it asks is do you have a prenup and if so, you have to provide the church with a copy of this.

Why are they asking for that? That seems like it wouldn't be anything the church would ask for.... it has to do with property, finances, etc...

Thoughts?

If a prenup is included then that means for whatever reason they think there may be a slim chance they will get divorced. When it comes to an annulment in the church one of the ways to prove the marriage wasn't vaild from the begining is by proving there wasn't an intention to stay married the rest of your life... That is where the prenup comes into play.

happy2016 · September 2014

So does that mean the church doesnt want to marry the couple if they have a prenup? Or they just want it on record so that they have justification for an annulment down the road if the couple divorces?

I don't view a prenup as planning for a divorce.... it's like car insurance, smart to be prepared but you don't plan you will have an accident, yet you still buy car and home insurance.

holyguacamole79 · September 2014

happy2016 said:
So does that mean the church doesnt want to marry the couple if they have a prenup? Or they just want it on record so that they have justification for an annulment down the road if the couple divorces?
I don't view a prenup as planning for a divorce.... it's like car insurance, smart to be prepared but you don't plan you will have an accident, yet you still buy car and home insurance.

It depends on a lot of things. It will depend on the priest / deacon working to prepare you for marriage, and it will depend on the terms of the prenup.

IMO, if there is justification for an annulment whIle the couple is going through marriage prep, then they shouldn't be getting married in the Catholic Church. If there is justification now that your marriage is not sacramentally valid to begin with, why bother going through the Sacrament?

Here is a major flaw with your insurance comparison. Marriage (as seen by the Catholic Church) is a covenant. You do not enter into a covenant with your car or house. A car is an object that is not meant to last a lifetime. Your marriage is supposed to do that.

lurkergirl · September 2014

As a person who was raised in a non-denominational, evangelical church, I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread. I am still a Christian, although I certainly am not practicing what was always preached to me. I'm going to a christian women's conference next month as a first step to re-establish myself in a church community before we start having kids. Even if I don't agree with everything, I like reading about it, especially when it's a positive, informative conversation. Good work, ladies!

happy2016 · September 2014

I agree it has been a very informative thread. I learned lots that I didn't know.

MrsMack10612 · September 2014

As a non-Catholic who married a Catholic, I learned a lot during our marriage prep.

I had a lot of misconceptions and misunderstanding of church doctrine. I still do not agree with many of the things the Catholic church teaches, but I have a better respect for them.

I can see how as a non-Catholic a lot of the rules & teachings can seem rigid and getting involved with things they ought not be concerned about in a marriage; however, it all does make sense and is completely intertwined, one thing to another.

Our priest had us work using the Catechism of the Catholic Church book, he would assign us readings, H & I would read independently & discuss. If we still had questions that we couldn't answer for each other, we would take those back to the priest.

I most appreciated the fact that the book had references back to the biblical scripture that was the source of the rule/interpretation.

I highly recommend any non-Catholic bride marrying Catholic should get and read the parts about marriage & children.

OliveOilsMom · September 2014

While reading on the Catholic board here on TK, a few years ago. It was mentioned that the only type of prenup allowed by the Catholic Church was if it dealt solely with a business. And I believe it was to be used to say that as the husband of business owner wife, he would have no say in the business, etc.

holyguacamole79 · September 2014

Glad to help. Let me know if you have more questions!

PrettyGirlLost · September 2014

banana468 said:

happy2016 said:

I don't view birth control in a bad light either. I don't agree with the Catholic Church on birth control. And they often marry people who are on birth control, we all know the church does that. I just think the church perhaps involves itself in aspects that it shouldn't within a relationship. Some things are just between the couple (like whether they want children) or just between the couple and the doctor prescribing the birth control.

Many people don't realize this about Catholic marriage - it is NOT just between the couple. It is a public sacrament that is meant to be lived in the community. There are many aspects to a Catholic marriage, especially including the willingness to be open to children.

If you and your fiancé are not truthfully able to agree to what the Catholic Church teaches regarding marriage, then maybe it's not for you.

I guarantee you the priest / deacon preparing you for marriage will ask you and your fiancé about your openness to having children. If you are not open to this, there will be major issues.
To add to this, the Church doesn't ask if you're actively sinning. You could be on birth control, engaging in premarital sex, using the pullout method, hiding in plain sight from a murder rap or beating old ladies in your spare time. If you don't admit to these things the priest will probably never think to ask about them. However they ARE all sins. If you aren't willing to accept children at that is against one of the major elements of a valid marriage. If you lie about it and say yes just to marry in the Church it's grounds for an annulment. When you marry in the Catholic Church, you union is part of the community.

And if the couple chooses not to have kids, gets married, never has kids, and never divorces who is going to seek the annulment?

It's in the best interest of any organized religion to compel the followers to have children. . . otherwise who will carry on the faith in future generations? So, there's an inherent logic in this requirement.

Questions from a non-Catholic about a Catholic ceromony

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