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Catholic and Civil Ceremony - Same Day?

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Re: Catholic and Civil Ceremony - Same Day?

  • lyndausvilyndausvi mod
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    holyguacamole79 said:
    Hey @agapecarrie, one more question.  My parents had their vows renewed with a priest "officiating" when they had their 25th anniversary.  Would that be a violation of this Canon Law?

    @HReis13, yep - just about all couples have to go through some sort of marriage prep.  Ours was also a "pre-marriage bootcamp" and we enjoyed ours as well.
    my grandparents renewed their vows in a full mass ceremony on their 50th anniversary.

    Then we had a kick ass reception with 280 plus people.  Full meal, open bar, DJ, dancing all in the afternoon.  No gap.






    What differentiates an average host and a great host is anticipating unexpressed needs and wants of their guests.  Just because the want/need is not expressed, doesn't mean it wouldn't be appreciated. 
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  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
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    No, its not a violation. Every Easter baptismal promises are renewed at Mass, though the sacrament isn't "redone".  A renewal of marriage promises is similar.
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  • CMGragainCMGragain member
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    edited November 2014
    No, not a violation.  Holy Matrimony is a sacrament.  Renewal of vows is not.  Two different things, entirely.

    PS.  I wish some of our PPD "brides" would understand this!
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  • mrs4everhartmrs4everhart member
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    First and foremost I think it's really important that you and your fiancé decide what style of wedding you both want.

    My first wedding I allowed myself to sell out because my Dad insisted it had to be in a Presbyterian church. They wouldn't pay unless we did it his way. Young and broke we acquiesced. I wish I hadnt.

    If you both decide having a catholic ceremony is what you both want, then it's just an added bonus your FIL's will be happy.

    But if it's not, call their bluff. They had their wedding, assumably how they wanted, it's your turn.

    I have a friend who was in a similar situation. They married religiously and legally just them and his parents at his parent's church. Several months later they had their DW. It wasn't ideal but they made the best of it.

    I'm not a parent but couldn't imagine forcing my religious views on my adult children and forcing them to have a wedding they don't want. Shame.
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  • MobKazMobKaz member
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    OP, it is important that you choose the wedding that is true to you and your FI.  You only get ONE chance to have the wedding that is most significant to you both.  You cannot wed religiously and legally, or secularly and legally, and follow it up with a destination or any other wedding. 
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  • mrs4everhartmrs4everhart member
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    MobKaz said:

    OP, it is important that you choose the wedding that is true to you and your FI.  You only get ONE chance to have the wedding that is most significant to you both.  You cannot wed religiously and legally, or secularly and legally, and follow it up with a destination or any other wedding. 

    I think what she meant was you can't have multiple legally-binding ceremonies, OP. That's factually correct.

    But there's nothing to stop you or anyone else from separating the legal from the ceremonial. Except a bunch of opinions. If that's the route you choose, there are lots of things to consider, but I don't think that's the route you're headed so it's really all moot.

    OP, the crux of your issue isn't really about the necessity of needing separate anything. It's about whether or not you and your FI want a particular religious ceremony and whether you're planning to allow outside influences to make this determination for you. I hope if you go the route of the catholic ceremony it's because you and your fiancé want to, not because you felt manipulated.
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  • mrs4everhartmrs4everhart member
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    Clearly I did.
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  • southernbelle0915southernbelle0915 mod
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    holyguacamole79 said:

    @mrs4everheart,

    I get that you are an expert on DWs and on having a wedding after the papers have been signed.  Good for you.  I think you also missed the part where @agapecarrie provided an excerpt from Canon Law stating that what OP is looking to do is not allowed according to Catholic teaching.  So your statement "there's nothing to stop you or anyone else from separating the legal from the ceremonial" is inaccurate.

    As a PP stated, IF OP were to have a Catholic wedding, she & her FI will go through pre-marital counseling.  If I were involved in the marriage prep and found out about this, I would definitely be raising concers about the sacramental validity of the wedding.
    This.

    FFS MrsE... This is about the OP, not you. And what you did doesn't work for most people, either morally or religiously. I get that you're trying to make it your mission to promote PPDs and stand out from the crowd, but this is someone's faith we're talking about. It goes beyond etiquette. Have a little respect.
    *********************************************************************************

    image
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  • MairePoppyMairePoppy mod
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    agapecarrie said:

    Canon law: 1127 §3. It is forbidden to have another religious celebration of the same marriage to give or renew matrimonial consent before or after the canonical celebration according to the norm of §1. Likewise, there is not to be a religious celebration in which the Catholic who is assisting and a non-Catholic minister together, using their own rites, ask for the consent of the parties.


    agapecarrie- thank you for this. I knew separate civil marriage was allowed only in countries where it's required by law.
                       
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  • holyguacamole79holyguacamole79 member
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    edited November 2014
    mrs4everhart said:
    I have a friend who was in a similar situation. They married religiously and legally just them and his parents at his parent's church. Several months later they had their DW. It wasn't ideal but they made the best of it.
    As a faithful Catholic, I find this offensive. A Catholic wedding is more than enough. Hell, ANY wedding is more than enough. There is absolutely NO need to have a do-over. That implies that the first wedding didn't "stick". Catholics believe that a marriage is an eternal covenant between the couple and God. It more tHan "sticks". Shame on you for suggesting this.




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  • mrs4everhartmrs4everhart member
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    If the OP was extremely concerned with a catholic wedding, she wouldn't be in this conundrum, she'd be in the midst of planning her catholic wedding, now wouldn't she?

    This has nothing to do with me. I have no religious quandaries. As I said above, if a catholic wedding is what the couple wants, they should have one. I don't think anyone should have any type of ceremony they don't want just to appease anyone else. Do you people not read?

    But let's just hypothetically say they have a catholic ceremony with just their parents. What they do with the rest of the afternoon really isn't the concern of their priest. Is it? 

    Sometimes people have to get creative to make everyone happy. If they're concerned about such things, that is. 
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  • holyguacamole79holyguacamole79 member
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    edited November 2014
    @mrs4everhart‌, please read: This is called Canon Law and it is Church Law.
    agapecarrie said:

    Canon law: 1127 §3. It is forbidden to have another religious celebration of the same marriage to give or renew matrimonial consent before or after the canonical celebration according to the norm of §1. Likewise, there is not to be a religious celebration in which the Catholic who is assisting and a non-Catholic minister together, using their own rites, ask for the consent of the parties.







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  • CMGragainCMGragain member
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    Mrs4everhart, I know you like to make up your own rules.  Well, Catholics cannot do that.  There are serious consequences for a Catholic who is married outside the church.  The Catholic rules extend to all parts of one's life.  You don't just do the Catholic thing in church, and then go do something else later.  This would be very much the concern of their priest.
    Protestant churches are not like this, and most will allow a lot of leeway in wedding planning.  I know that you are not a Catholic, and that you do not understand how disrespectful the OPs plans are.  I do agree with you, that if the OP and her FI do not wish to continue in the Catholic faith at all, then they shouldn't have a church wedding, but this will come out in the pre-Cana classes that are required for all Catholic couples to take before they are married.  The priest may not be willing to marry them anyway.
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  • holyguacamole79holyguacamole79 member
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    edited November 2014
    mrs4everhart said:
    If the OP was extremely concerned with a catholic wedding, she wouldn't be in this conundrum, she'd be in the midst of planning her catholic wedding, now wouldn't she?

    This has nothing to do with me. I have no religious quandaries. As I said above, if a catholic wedding is what the couple wants, they should have one. I don't think anyone should have any type of ceremony they don't want just to appease anyone else. Do you people not read?

    But let's just hypothetically say they have a catholic ceremony with just their parents. What they do with the rest of the afternoon really isn't the concern of their priest. Is it? 

    Sometimes people have to get creative to make everyone happy. If they're concerned about such things, that is. 

    Please see my post above. It IS the concern of he priest as he is there to witness the marriage. If he is aware that this is going to also happen and that they are violating church law, I imagine he would decline to witness the wedding.

    I know it must be a foreign concept to you, @mrs4everhart, but not everyone needs multiple weddings.  




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  • mrs4everhartmrs4everhart member
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    holyguacamole79 said:
    mrs4everhart said:
    If the OP was extremely concerned with a catholic wedding, she wouldn't be in this conundrum, she'd be in the midst of planning her catholic wedding, now wouldn't she?

    This has nothing to do with me. I have no religious quandaries. As I said above, if a catholic wedding is what the couple wants, they should have one. I don't think anyone should have any type of ceremony they don't want just to appease anyone else. Do you people not read?

    But let's just hypothetically say they have a catholic ceremony with just their parents. What they do with the rest of the afternoon really isn't the concern of their priest. Is it? 

    Sometimes people have to get creative to make everyone happy. If they're concerned about such things, that is. 

    Please see my post above. It IS the concern of he priest as he is there to witness the marriage. If he is aware that this is going to also happen and that they are violating church law, I imagine he would decline to witness the wedding.

    I know it must be a foreign concept to you, @mrs4everhart, but not everyone needs multiple weddings.  
    Again, it doesn't seem like this couple wants to be married in a church. Lots of people get married in churches not buying a word of what's happening during their ceremony. They go through the motions most likely to make family happy. 

    And no, they don't have to mention a word of their non-legally-binding, non-religious ceremony planned for after their legally binding, religious ceremony. 

    No one NEEDS much of anything. WANT is a completely different animal. And I don't think the OP wants two ceremonies, I think she's desperately trying to appease her FIL's. 
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  • holyguacamole79holyguacamole79 member
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    mrs4everhart said:
    holyguacamole79 said:
    mrs4everhart said:
    If the OP was extremely concerned with a catholic wedding, she wouldn't be in this conundrum, she'd be in the midst of planning her catholic wedding, now wouldn't she?

    This has nothing to do with me. I have no religious quandaries. As I said above, if a catholic wedding is what the couple wants, they should have one. I don't think anyone should have any type of ceremony they don't want just to appease anyone else. Do you people not read?

    But let's just hypothetically say they have a catholic ceremony with just their parents. What they do with the rest of the afternoon really isn't the concern of their priest. Is it? 

    Sometimes people have to get creative to make everyone happy. If they're concerned about such things, that is. 

    Please see my post above. It IS the concern of he priest as he is there to witness the marriage. If he is aware that this is going to also happen and that they are violating church law, I imagine he would decline to witness the wedding.

    I know it must be a foreign concept to you, @mrs4everhart, but not everyone needs multiple weddings.  
    Again, it doesn't seem like this couple wants to be married in a church. Lots of people get married in churches not buying a word of what's happening during their ceremony. They go through the motions most likely to make family happy. 

    And no, they don't have to mention a word of their non-legally-binding, non-religious ceremony planned for after their legally binding, religious ceremony. 

    No one NEEDS much of anything. WANT is a completely different animal. And I don't think the OP wants two ceremonies, I think she's desperately trying to appease her FIL's. 

    I definitely agree that this couple should not marry in a church if they do not ascribe to the beliefs of that Church. Many people (Catholics included) don't appreciate that a Catholic wedding is more than just a venue facility. It is a sacrament. Also, I know you said that you aren't religious, but I'm sure you're still familiar with the 10 Commandments. One of hose commandments is to not bear false witness, which is what you are encouraging. Heck, I didn't even realize this was in Canon Law until Carrie posted that reference. And if the OP comes back to the thread, she will see it as well.




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  • holyguacamole79holyguacamole79 member
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    Omg, @CMGragain‌, I just spit up my wine in laughter. THANK YOU FOR SAYING THAT!
    CMGragain said:
    mrs4everhart said:
    holyguacamole79 said:
    mrs4everhart said:
    If the OP was extremely concerned with a catholic wedding, she wouldn't be in this conundrum, she'd be in the midst of planning her catholic wedding, now wouldn't she?

    This has nothing to do with me. I have no religious quandaries. As I said above, if a catholic wedding is what the couple wants, they should have one. I don't think anyone should have any type of ceremony they don't want just to appease anyone else. Do you people not read?

    But let's just hypothetically say they have a catholic ceremony with just their parents. What they do with the rest of the afternoon really isn't the concern of their priest. Is it? 

    Sometimes people have to get creative to make everyone happy. If they're concerned about such things, that is. 

    Please see my post above. It IS the concern of he priest as he is there to witness the marriage. If he is aware that this is going to also happen and that they are violating church law, I imagine he would decline to witness the wedding.

    I know it must be a foreign concept to you, @mrs4everhart, but not everyone needs multiple weddings.  
    Again, it doesn't seem like this couple wants to be married in a church. Lots of people get married in churches not buying a word of what's happening during their ceremony. They go through the motions most likely to make family happy. 

    And no, they don't have to mention a word of their non-legally-binding, non-religious ceremony planned for after their legally binding, religious ceremony. 

    No one NEEDS much of anything. WANT is a completely different animal. And I don't think the OP wants two ceremonies, I think she's desperately trying to appease her FIL's. 
    Mrs4everhart, YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT CATHOLICISM!!





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  • CMGragainCMGragain member
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    I don't normally loose my temper, but when someone posts about a topic that they are completely ignorant about, it just burns my butt.
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  • mrs4everhartmrs4everhart member
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    CMGragain said:
    mrs4everhart said:
    holyguacamole79 said:
    mrs4everhart said:
    If the OP was extremely concerned with a catholic wedding, she wouldn't be in this conundrum, she'd be in the midst of planning her catholic wedding, now wouldn't she?

    This has nothing to do with me. I have no religious quandaries. As I said above, if a catholic wedding is what the couple wants, they should have one. I don't think anyone should have any type of ceremony they don't want just to appease anyone else. Do you people not read?

    But let's just hypothetically say they have a catholic ceremony with just their parents. What they do with the rest of the afternoon really isn't the concern of their priest. Is it? 

    Sometimes people have to get creative to make everyone happy. If they're concerned about such things, that is. 

    Please see my post above. It IS the concern of he priest as he is there to witness the marriage. If he is aware that this is going to also happen and that they are violating church law, I imagine he would decline to witness the wedding.

    I know it must be a foreign concept to you, @mrs4everhart, but not everyone needs multiple weddings.  
    Again, it doesn't seem like this couple wants to be married in a church. Lots of people get married in churches not buying a word of what's happening during their ceremony. They go through the motions most likely to make family happy. 

    And no, they don't have to mention a word of their non-legally-binding, non-religious ceremony planned for after their legally binding, religious ceremony. 

    No one NEEDS much of anything. WANT is a completely different animal. And I don't think the OP wants two ceremonies, I think she's desperately trying to appease her FIL's. 
    Mrs4everhart, YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT CATHOLICISM!!
    I don't have to know anything about catholicism to know that people are still entitled to any and all non-legally-binding ceremonies they can shake a stick at. And before anyone attempts to tell me about the piousness of all catholics and their 100% adherence to any and all rules and regulations of the catholic church, I think that's some shit I could live without hearing. 

    I hope for the OP's sake they are able to figure it all out so they end up with the wedding they want. But there's always options if they can't work it out to everyone's satisfaction.
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  • mrs4everhartmrs4everhart member
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    holyguacamole79 said:


    mrs4everhart said:


    CMGragain said:


    mrs4everhart said:


    holyguacamole79 said:


    mrs4everhart said:

    If the OP was extremely concerned with a catholic wedding, she wouldn't be in this conundrum, she'd be in the midst of planning her catholic wedding, now wouldn't she?

    This has nothing to do with me. I have no religious quandaries. As I said above, if a catholic wedding is what the couple wants, they should have one. I don't think anyone should have any type of ceremony they don't want just to appease anyone else. Do you people not read?

    But let's just hypothetically say they have a catholic ceremony with just their parents. What they do with the rest of the afternoon really isn't the concern of their priest. Is it? 

    Sometimes people have to get creative to make everyone happy. If they're concerned about such things, that is. 




    Please see my post above. It IS the concern of he priest as he is there to witness the marriage. If he is aware that this is going to also happen and that they are violating church law, I imagine he would decline to witness the wedding.

    I know it must be a foreign concept to you, @mrs4everhart, but not everyone needs multiple weddings.  

    Again, it doesn't seem like this couple wants to be married in a church. Lots of people get married in churches not buying a word of what's happening during their ceremony. They go through the motions most likely to make family happy. 

    And no, they don't have to mention a word of their non-legally-binding, non-religious ceremony planned for after their legally binding, religious ceremony. 

    No one NEEDS much of anything. WANT is a completely different animal. And I don't think the OP wants two ceremonies, I think she's desperately trying to appease her FIL's. 

    Mrs4everhart, YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT CATHOLICISM!!



    I don't have to know anything about catholicism to know that people are still entitled to any and all non-legally-binding ceremonies they can shake a stick at. And before anyone attempts to tell me about the piousness of all catholics and their 100% adherence to any and all rules and regulations of the catholic church, I think that's some shit I could live without hearing. 

    I hope for the OP's sake they are able to figure it all out so they end up with the wedding they want. But there's always options if they can't work it out to everyone's satisfaction.



    ENTITLED TO?!?!?!?!  
    What kind of fucked-up alternate universe do you live in where you ACTUALLY think people are ENTITLED to "any and all non-legally-binding ceremonies they can shake a stick at"?!?!  Let me assume that you don't know the meaning of this fucking word.

    Dictionary.com says "entitled" means:

     to give (a person or thing) a title, right, or claim to something; furnishwith grounds for laying claim:

    NOBODY IS

    ENTITLED TO A 

    FUCKING

    PRETTY PRINCESS DAY.  NOBODY.

    If a person wants to have one, fine - let them make a fucking fool out of themselves.  You and your husband decided to do that, and apparently that's working out for you.  That's nice.  But don't you DARE waltz in here and tell us that a person is fucking entitled to this.

    Do all Catholics stick to all the rules?  NOPE.  I stood as a bridesmaid in my brother's wedding when I shouldn't have.  And I would do it again.  And you know what, OP may decide to have a fucking tour de wedding like you did.  We are simply stating that if she marries in the Catholic Church, this is a law that they observe that should be respected.   

    BUT NOBODY IS ENTITLED TO A PRETTY PRINCESS DAY!!!  

    The entitlement attitude has gone on far too long.  You know what - some people may not be happy.  Her ILs may decide to not attend the wedding because they believe it would contribute to scandal (which is precisely why I was advised not to attend my brother's wedding).  And that's fine.  They need to live with that decision.  The decision of whether to have a Catholic wedding or a courthouse wedding or any other kind of wedding is solely up to the couple.  There is absolutely no need to have another fake wedding just to appease someone else.


    Did you actually say scandal? That made me laugh out loud. Wow. Anyway.....

    Last I checked adults are ENTITLED to spend their time and money on any damn thing they'd like. Presuming of course it's not harming anyone else. So yea, I'm absolutely secure in what I said.

    To be frank, I hope the OP doesn't have to have multiple ceremonies. I sincerely hope she and her FI can get it all worked out, either in church or wherever the hell else they'd prefer to marry. Their situation is nothing like mine so to bother to compare the two is a giant waste of time. Which is why I mentioned my friend's multiple ceremonies because the scenarios are similar and it turned out just fine for them.



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  • artbyallieartbyallie mod
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    @mrs4everhart, I am aware you do not see any moral issue with lying by omission, apparently even to one's priest. But you are in the wrong in advising OP to do so, because if she were to do so and the truth were to come out, it could hurt her standing with the Church.

    I fully agree that it sounds like OP does not really need to be having a Catholic wedding, but that is beside the point. Lurkers read these posts and I would hate for any of them to run with your advice/opinions over those of the posters who know more about how the Catholic Church works. It does not matter if you disagree with how the Church Law is written.

    I also realize you don't particularly care about potential consequences of lying and having multiple ceremonies. They are however a very big deal in this situation, so kindly stop arguing that OP can just do whatever she wants. If she really does wish to be married in the Catholic Church there are rules she has to follow.
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  • holyguacamole79holyguacamole79 member
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    @mrs4everhart, yes I said scandal. I'm glad you enjoy laughing at my faith. Please read this to get an idea if what I'm saying. I am using scandal in the context of church law, not in the context of Olivia Pope.  THis article explains it well:  http://www.catholic.com/blog/jim-blackburn/should-i-attend-the-wedding-or-not




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  • levioosalevioosa member
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    OP, I don't know if you are still here, or even reading responses, but I'll respond anyways. 

    SO's parents are hard core Catholics.  I know they are hoping we will marry in the Church.  But I'm not okay with that, and it would be incredibly disrespectful to their faith  (read: to any faith) to "fake" a sacramental ceremony and then have a re-do.  Unless you are considering once again going into the Catholic faith, do not have the ceremony there.

    Call their bluff, and plan the wedding outside of the Church if you do not feel inclined to join Catholicism again.  If they refuse to attend, then they are being petty and manipulative.  My Aunt is also devoutly Catholic, but regardless, she would never refuse to attend my ceremony just because it was in a secular location, or non-Catholic church.  


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