Confederate Flag Drama

HeatherKat · July 2015

"If slavery and racism makes you mad, there might be something wrong with your thinking."

For fucking real?

CMGragain · July 2015

I thought the discussion was on the history of racism and the symbolism of the flag in the south? Maybe I am wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.
As for being a racist? It is so easy to throw labels at someone, isn't it? How about Communist? That used to be thrown around a lot at innocent people.

The most racist person I ever met was a black teenager. She told me, to my face, that she hated all white people because they were all "fucking racists." Sad.

redoryx · July 2015

CMGragain said:

If you really want to see a totally racist statement that is unbelievably horrible in today's time, read the eleventh edition of the Encyclopedia Brittanica. It gives you some insight into what people were taught about the equality of races 100 years ago. It is horrifying by today's knowledge, but it was taught and accepted as fact by scientists in the early 1900s.
I want to remind you that I am very pleased that the flag was taken down. I know no one who would support slavery today, at least not in the USA. It is still happening in parts of the world. My objection is to the changing of historical facts and times in light of new events.
I also usually feel that if you have to use profanity and rage to try to win your argument, there might just be something wrong with your thinking? This last is JMHO.

The people who first changed the historical facts were the ones who originally once started the argument that the Confederate Flag wasn't about racism. Now society is merely changing the facts back to the correct perspective.

PrettyGirlLost · July 2015

pinupbride6189 said:

Coming from someone who grew up in the deep south, being taught and raised with the beliefs that the confederacy was something to be proud of, and that the civil war wasn't about slavery, to the point of, as a kid wearing shirts that said, "If this flag offends you, you need a history lesson," I'm glad the flag has been lowered. It took me growing up and moving around a bit to really come into my own and understand that a lot of the values I was raised with were just wrong, prejudiced, and completely misguided.

My dad is very proud of his heritage, to include the flag in question, and brags that we have several high ranking confederate officers in our ancestry, and he honestly doesn't believe any of that is racist. He honestly believes that the south was standing up to oppression and asserting itself to an over-reaching federal government. Is he right? Does it matter that he sincerely believes that? No. It doesn't make it ok. But I don't think he'll ever be convinced of that.

It was really interesting having this discussion with FI, as we were raised in completely different settings. He'd never heard the "states rights," arguement, while I had been taught it as truth both at home and in school. His mind was blown that that was actually allowed in public schools. TBH, so am I at this point in my life. Like I said, even though I was raised with them, these are no long values I hold.

So, here's a question: The city I grew up in calls itself The City of Five Flags, as throughout it's history, it's had the flags of five nations flown over it. It's been governed by England, France, Spain, the confederacy and of course, the USA. There are several pieces of public/government owned land (parks, sports/concert venues, I think perhaps even in front of the court house) where all 5 of these flags fly. During the summer they have a Festival of Five flags. What's the right answer in this case? Do you take all of them down? Do you just take down the confederate flag pretend that part never happened? I'm genuinely asking, because it's something I've been thinking a lot about as of late.

Is the actual flag of the Confederacy flying, or the Confederate Battle Flag?

I don't think we should white wash history and pretend that certain shit just didn't happen, and in my mind it's not as offensive to fly the battle flag in the context of this situation. In this context, being flown beside 4 other flags, it's more a symbol, to me, of the varied history of those who controlled your city.

The reason I think it was shitty and wrong to fly the battle flag in South Carolina, over government buildings is because that flag was raised after the Civil War in protest to the Civil Rights movement. . . so people in the state that started the damn civil war raised a flag that has clearly, historically documented origins in racism at a time when we were trying to combat. . . racism.

pinupbride6189 · July 2015

@PrettyGirlLost , it's the battle flag, I believe. I tend to agree with you, but to be completely honest, it's never been something that's crossed my mind until recently.

HeatherKat · July 2015

The CFB being a symbol of racism isn't revisionist history in light of recent events--- it's actual history. That's a fact. It's not an opinion. The Civil War was about a bunch of white people who were pissed off that they couldn't continue their tradition of OWNING BLACK PEOPLE.

Those who celebrate that flag are celebrating racism.

What is so hard to understand about that?

STARMOON44 · July 2015

CMGragain said:
I thought the discussion was on the history of racism and the symbolism of the flag in the south? Maybe I am wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.
As for being a racist? It is so easy to throw labels at someone, isn't it? How about Communist? That used to be thrown around a lot at innocent people.

The most racist person I ever met was a black teenager. She told me, to my face, that she hated all white people because they were all "fucking racists." Sad.

Nah. Fair. Us white people got a lot of shit to answer to. If black people have some hatred so be it.

I can't believe you genuinely feel a teenager is more racist than adult women you socialize with who are members of the Daughters of the Confederacy.

The words of a powerless child, no matter how harsh, are not worse than the actions of people with power and privilege.

Viczaesar · July 2015

CMGragain said:

If you really want to see a totally racist statement that is unbelievably horrible in today's time, read the eleventh edition of the Encyclopedia Brittanica. It gives you some insight into what people were taught about the equality of races 100 years ago. It is horrifying by today's knowledge, but it was taught and accepted as fact by scientists in the early 1900s.
I want to remind you that I am very pleased that the flag was taken down. I know no one who would support slavery today, at least not in the USA. It is still happening in parts of the world. My objection is to the changing of historical facts and times in light of new events.
I also usually feel that if you have to use profanity and rage to try to win your argument, there might just be something wrong with your thinking? This last is JMHO.

Or maybe the person to whom you are speaking is just that out of touch with reality and full of herself that you want to bash your forehead in with a paving stone, and saying the word "fuck" helps to release some of the anger and frustration and let that person know that they are seriously pissing you off right about now.

"Changing of historical facts" - that would be people like you who are trying to spout a revisionist history. Not the people pointing out that the civil war and all the trappings thereof were and still are to this day based in racism.

Your first paragraph has nothing to do with this issue and adds absolutely nothing to the conversation, yet you pull that shit all the time and it's one of the reasons that people get so frustrated with you that they feel the urge to start cussing.

redoryx · July 2015

CMGragain said:

I thought the discussion was on the history of racism and the symbolism of the flag in the south? Maybe I am wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.
As for being a racist? It is so easy to throw labels at someone, isn't it? How about Communist? That used to be thrown around a lot at innocent people.

The most racist person I ever met was a black teenager. She told me, to my face, that she hated all white people because they were all "fucking racists." Sad.

Well, technically speaking, seeing as you can't actually meet yourself.....

STARMOON44 · July 2015

Wait, are you actually suggesting that because I'm swearing, that means I'm wrong that the confederate flag is racist? Nope. That's not how facts work.

hellosweetie1015 · July 2015

I'm a Southerner. I'll say it - I live ten miles from the Anniston Bus Bombing. IIRC, my dentist growing up was near the historic marker. Anniston was a hotbed of hatred and racism in the Civil Rights Era. However, I did not grow up with the "states' rights" argument. I was homeschooled, and as such missed a lot of what is taught in Alabama public school history classes. My parents are your age, CMGr, and they taught me that the Civil War was, yes, about states' rights: whether states had the right to allow slavery within their borders. Whether states had the right to say that a person whose skin was darker than those making the laws was automatically less than. I was taught, from a YOUNG age, that the Confederate Battle Flag was a symbol of hate and racism. Being Southern doesn't equate to a kinship with that flag. Being racist does. And yes, that flag has a place. It should go into history books, and reenactments, and into glass cases at museums, where it can be preserved for future generations, to show them how very far we have come from a nation that held hate so dear to itself that people thought this discussion was ever one that needed to be had.

redoryx · July 2015

hellosweetie1015 said:

I'm a Southerner. I'll say it - I live ten miles from the Anniston Bus Bombing. IIRC, my dentist growing up was near the historic marker. Anniston was a hotbed of hatred and racism in the Civil Rights Era. However, I did not grow up with the "states' rights" argument. I was homeschooled, and as such missed a lot of what is taught in Alabama public school history classes. My parents are your age, CMGr, and they taught me that the Civil War was, yes, about states' rights: whether states had the right to allow slavery within their borders. Whether states had the right to say that a person whose skin was darker than those making the laws was automatically less than. I was taught, from a YOUNG age, that the Confederate Battle Flag was a symbol of hate and racism. Being Southern doesn't equate to a kinship with that flag. Being racist does. And yes, that flag has a place. It should go into history books, and reenactments, and into glass cases at museums, where it can be preserved for future generations, to show them how very far we have come from a nation that held hate so dear to itself that people thought this discussion was ever one that needed to be had.

QFT

flbride2015 · July 2015

STARMOON44 said:

HeatherKat said:

What the fuck does that have to do with the fact that the Confederate Battle Flag is an undeniably racist symbol?

No, it is not undeniably a racist symbol. I have experience living in the south of the early 1960s. (Martin Luther King, Medgar Evers, Ole Miss) Do you? If not, how can you judge a people with such a blank statement?
The Confederate Flag has become a symbol of racism, though. It needed to come down.
Please, explain when the Confederate flag symbolized something other than racism. Exactly.

@CMGragain, we're still waiting for your explanation?

PrettyGirlLost · July 2015

CMGragain said:

If you really want to see a totally racist statement that is unbelievably horrible in today's time, read the eleventh edition of the Encyclopedia Brittanica. It gives you some insight into what people were taught about the equality of races 100 years ago. It is horrifying by today's knowledge, but it was taught and accepted as fact by scientists in the early 1900s.
I want to remind you that I am very pleased that the flag was taken down. I know no one who would support slavery today, at least not in the USA. It is still happening in parts of the world. My objection is to the changing of historical facts and times in light of new events.
I also usually feel that if you have to use profanity and rage to try to win your argument, there might just be something wrong with your thinking? This last is JMHO.

I love history, including US history. I find the Industrial Revolution, the Civil War, and the westward expansion to be a fascinating time period. But I acknowledge some pretty fucked up shit went down during that time. Apparently, so did our law makers as well, since things such as labor laws and the Civil Rights act followed in time related to events that happened during the 1800's and forward.

Again, we can't and should not white wash history and ban and censor from the annuls everything from the past that was "wrong" and shitty. We need to remember where we came from, good and bad, see it for what it is, vow to try not to ever repeat the bad shit, and move on.

I don't automatically judge reenactors or war gamers as inherently racist people if they choose to reenact a Confederate personna, or they acknowledge that that had family members who fought in or were officers in the Confederate Army. However, most of the ones I know have a very solid grasp of the history of the Civil War and the battle flag, and they aren't trying to rewrite history.

Speaking of which, my dropping a few F-bombs, doesn't negate historical fact. The creator of the Confederate Battle Flag said this:

“As a people we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause.” —William T. Thompson (April 23, 1863), Daily Morning News"

The only people changing historical facts are people in the south who are trying to cherry-pick history in order to justify and rationalize the continued use and display of a racist symbol, outside of historical context such as museums and reenactment groups. What new events are coming to light? Oh, that informal little shindig at Appomattox?

I personally think that proudly waving that damn flag around makes people look like uneducated, racist, sore losers. But if private citizens want to do it, they can have at it! They have a constitutional right to freedom of expression. But what people choose not to understand is that the constitution does not protect them from historical facts any more than it protects them from the judgement and criticism of the rest of us.

And again, the reason I think it was shitty and wrong to fly the battle flag in South Carolina, over government buildings is because that flag was raised after the Civil War in protest to the Civil Rights movement. . . so people in the state that started the damn civil war raised a flag that has clearly, historically documented origins in racism at a time when we were trying to combat. . . racism.

flbride2015 · July 2015

PrettyGirlLost said:

Again, we can't and should not white wash history and ban and censor from the annuls everything from the past that was "wrong" and shitty. We need to remember where we came from, good and bad, see it for what it is, vow to try not to ever repeat the bad shit, and move on.

-----------------------BOXES-----------------------------------

Erased all the extra stuff.

So much this. It's necessary to understand what actually occured in regards to slavery and the Civil Rights movement in order to understand why our current society is the way it is. These events had a lasting effect on the African American population in our country. The high incarceration rates, the high poverty rates; it all stems from the fact that it was only about 150 years ago that slavery was abolished and only about 50 years ago that the Civil Rights movement occured. There are people alive today that know what it feels like to be Black before the Civil Rights movement, and people who actively stood up against that movement and raised that flag in SC.

To not understand history and to choose to believe in the revisionist BS from the South, is to have difficulty in understanding why our country is what it is today, and how we need to address the issues our society currently faces.

pinupbride6189 · July 2015

Coincidentally, FI just brought home a beer called Sherman's March To The Sea. I do believe we'll open it this evening.

ETA: Please continue with the academic and societal discussion at hand. I just thought it was entertaining and make jokes at inappropriate times.

jacques27 · July 2015

So, we're seriously at the point where we're arguing that legitimate proof of not being even the slightest bit racist is because an encyclopaedia written 115 years ago and an angry teenager are totes the most racist ever? Like racism exists in only a finite amount and they just done hoarded it all?

@pinupbride6189 - My thoughts on the five flag thing is that it's inappropriate to have any of the not-current flags up there (UK, France, Spain, Confederate Battle). Yes, it's a part of the city's history, but on government owned property they should not be flying as if they are the flag under which that city is currently ruled. That isn't denying or rewriting history, it simply an acknowledgment of what is. There is a time and place for our displaying our history and flying it on our government property as if it's our current reality is inappropriate, whether it be a city park or over the state capital building.

flbride2015 · July 2015

pinupbride6189 said:

@PrettyGirlLost , it's the battle flag, I believe. I tend to agree with you, but to be completely honest, it's never been something that's crossed my mind until recently.

I think if it's for a specific celebration on a specific day like the one you mentioned, then no big deal. It's like using it during a reenactment. My only beef with it would be that they're using the wrong flag, which is historically innacurate. The Battle flag isn't the flag of the Confederate states. So if the intent is to fly the flags of occupiers, then they should fly the actual Confederate flag, not the Battle flag.

pinupbride6189 · July 2015

flbride2015 said:

pinupbride6189 said:

@PrettyGirlLost , it's the battle flag, I believe. I tend to agree with you, but to be completely honest, it's never been something that's crossed my mind until recently.

I think if it's for a specific celebration on a specific day like the one you mentioned, then no big deal. It's like using it during a reenactment. My only beef with it would be that they're using the wrong flag, which is historically innacurate. The Battle flag isn't the flag of the Confederate states. So if the intent is to fly the flags of occupiers, then they should fly the actual Confederate flag, not the Battle flag.

You know, I'm going to have to correct myself. I just did some googling, and it turns out that at least the official committee for the festival of five flags uses the actual confederate state flag. I do know of at least one place though, where the battle flag is flown instead...

Image result for city of five flags pensacola fl

CMGragain · July 2015

I do think it is interesting that a discussion about history and symbolism has degraded to a name calling contest. I'm out of here. My multi-racial family is laughing so hard.

flbride2015 · July 2015

CMGragain said:

I do think it is interesting that a discussion about history and symbolism has degraded to a name calling contest. I'm out of here. My multi-racial family is laughing so hard.

Is this like saying "I have black friends?"

HeatherKat · July 2015

"I can't answer any of the completely valid questions that have been posed, so I'm leaving"

Viczaesar · July 2015

CMGragain said:

I do think it is interesting that a discussion about history and symbolism has degraded to a name calling contest. I'm out of here. My multi-racial family is laughing so hard.

God, you are so fucking irritating.

CMGragain · July 2015

Viczaesar said:

CMGragain said:

I do think it is interesting that a discussion about history and symbolism has degraded to a name calling contest. I'm out of here. My multi-racial family is laughing so hard.

God, you are so fucking irritating.

Yup! I will admit to this! Bye!

Viczaesar · July 2015

You know what? I came back to apologize, because while I stand by what I said, it wasn't very nice. Now I'm glad I didn't. You go on with your illogical, self-important bad self, spouting offensive crap and defending the defenseless.

themosthappy91 · July 2015

CMGragain said:

I thought the discussion was on the history of racism and the symbolism of the flag in the south? Maybe I am wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.
As for being a racist? It is so easy to throw labels at someone, isn't it? How about Communist? That used to be thrown around a lot at innocent people.

The most racist person I ever met was a black teenager. She told me, to my face, that she hated all white people because they were all "fucking racists." Sad.

That's not how that works. Racism is inseparable from power. If there's no power of one group over another, it's not fucking racism.

Can a black person hate all white people? Yes. Is that probably a fucked up position to hold? Yes. Is it racist? NO NO NO NO NO. Because institutionally in our society, black people do not have that kind of power over white people. This is basic Politics of Race 101.

Sorry but you're fucking wrong on this one CMG. The Confederacy was racist. Symbols of it are racist. Honestly, I don't think you are being intentionally racist because I genuinely think you just don't understand. That's where I would take objection to STARMOON's previous statements- I have more sympathy towards all the people who literally just grow up being indoctrinated into thinking the War was about states' rights. I don't think those people have hateful hearts... I just think they are sadly misinformed.

But for all your backpedaling, playing the "I have a black friend" card (so-to-speak, with your whole family bit), refusing to answer direct questions that are posed to you, trying to distract by making the conversation about the tone versus the content... it's not making you look good.

AlexisA01 · July 2015

CMGragain said:

I do think it is interesting that a discussion about history and symbolism has degraded to a name calling contest. I'm out of here. My multi-racial family is laughing so hard.

WTF.....your whole explanation is making my head spin....

Cookie Pusher · July 2015

HeatherKat said:

"I can't answer any of the completely valid questions that have been posed, so I'm leaving"

Did anyone else picture Cartman?

FiancB · July 2015

It's the truly simple minded that just do not get that racism rarely wears a KKK cloak and yells out blatant slurs.

It's much more likely to wear pearls and swear that it's not racist and claim that "racism" against whites is totes just as bad.

climbingsingle · July 2015

CMGragain said:
I do think it is interesting that a discussion about history and symbolism has degraded to a name calling contest. I'm out of here. My multi-racial family is laughing so hard.

Are you out of here for good??? Great! Don't come back like last time.

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