FIL Problems - help!

banana468 · September 2015

I think when your FI has cooled down, you need to have a talk with him.

It's completely understandable to not want to argue with parents. It's completely understandable to want to avoid conflict.

It is NOT understandable to agree to something with your life partner and then to change your mind in front of your life partner because you're being badgered. Sometimes being a grown up in front of your parents can suck, but you need to talk to him about how you feel. I've mentioned to DH, "When you go against the things that we mutually agreed to, it makes me feel like it's more important to please your parents vs. stand up for what you and I agreed to. "

arrrghmatey · September 2015

I'm sorry the meeting didn't go as well as you had hoped. I hope you are your FI are able to discuss this situation further and agree to stick to your guns on the 6 extra guests max per each set of parents. If your FILs continue to give you certain conditions and complaints to try to get the two of you to do what they want, stand firm. Do not give in. Get up and walk away if you have to. Call their bluff on everything else. This is your wedding that you are paying for. The decisions are yours and you are already being generous by letting them bring a handful of extra guests.

Best of luck to you and try to enjoy planning your wedding.

nerdwife · September 2015

Jen4948 said:

I'm very sorry that things didn't go well.
It sounds like you need to be very firm with your FI that he needs to be very firm with his parents and make crystal clear that they cannot invite more people than the six, and certainly not anyone who "probably won't come." And he has to shut down the complaints about the location. He might say something like, "Mom, Dad, we've heard what you have to say about this, but we're standing firm on our decision. You can invite six additional people, but that's it. Not eight-six. And we're not changing the location of the wedding. These are closed subjects and we're not willing to discuss them further."

banana468 said:

I think when your FI has cooled down, you need to have a talk with him.

It's completely understandable to not want to argue with parents. It's completely understandable to want to avoid conflict.

It is NOT understandable to agree to something with your life partner and then to change your mind in front of your life partner because you're being badgered. Sometimes being a grown up in front of your parents can suck, but you need to talk to him about how you feel. I've mentioned to DH, "When you go against the things that we mutually agreed to, it makes me feel like it's more important to please your parents vs. stand up for what you and I agreed to. "

Pupatella said:

Oh no!! I'm so sorry that it turned out this way. That sounds super frustrating.

Inviting people that "probably won't come" sounds so scary and not okay. I'm hoping your FI can fix this for you. He needs to put his food down with his parents, and it sounds like you will need to be there any time in the future that this is discussed.

I'm just reiterating what other have said - I think you are very smart for not going into debt, and inviting a ton of guests that you can't afford to host. I really wish your IL's could see this as well.

I completely agree with all of this (particularly the bolded) - it felt terrible to feel like he was siding with his parents over me, or at least willing to give in to some of their demands when we discussed not doing so. He later explained to me that he wanted to try to be diplomatic with them and explain our reasoning for not having a huge guest list, but that's not the approach that we agreed to. Even if we had agreed to it, he should've tried it one time and then, when it clearly wasn't working, put his foot down and stated everything we decided as non-negotiable fact.

Trust me, we had one of our very, very few big arguments over this and he understands now how shitty he made me feel and how poorly he handled the situation. All we can do now is try again with our original tactics firmly in place/very firm one-sentence statements that he will repeat as necessary over the next thirteen-ish months.

delujm0 · September 2015

NEVER believe the "probably won't come" nonsense. ALWAYS assume you will have 100% attendance. MIL's list for our wedding was over 80 (!!!!) people, including 30 that "probably won't come" and then almost all of them came. DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES agree to invite people under the assumption that they won't show up. it doesn't matter how far away they live or what their situations are...they might have been waiting for years for an excuse to have a family reunion. You don't know.

DH and I invited everyone on the in-laws list because they were paying for a sizable portion of the wedding and because we had budgeted for a large guest list just to be safe, and our venue could accommodate them, etc. However, there are stories on these boards every day about sending invitations assuming that declines will come in, and then they don't, and couples wind up over budget or, worse, over capacity for their venue which cannot be fixed. You need to be firm on this. Accept the 8 extra invites assuming that you get the money for them IN YOUR HANDS before invitations go out. Do not send the other invitations. Tell your in laws you will send wedding announcements to those people after the fact.

Your FI needs to stand up to his parents. If you want to be treated as an adult, you need to act like one. No wonder they are so pushy with him...he gives in. If they get rewarded for this behavior, it will continue. I shudder to think what's going to happen should you decide to have children some day. You need to have a come to jesus with him. Immediately, before this gets out of control. His priority is you now, not his parents. Assuming that he agrees with you and doesn't want to invite these people, he needs to put his foot down ASAP.

nerdwife · September 2015

@delujm0 - re: "probably not coming," I know, that's exactly what I'm worried about. The people that FILs are saying "probably won't come" live a plane ride away but are more than capable of traveling, physically and financially, so there is simply no way for them to make that sort of guarantee (not that "probably" is any kind of reassurance), plus I am not feeling inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt right now.

As for my FI and what happened with his parents, while I understand what you're saying - afterwards I made similar points to him about what happens if they want to get involved with child-rearing decisions and such - I am confident that we will stop this all very soon and they will get the message that he and I are a decision-making unit, not him and them. This was the first time his parents ever pulled anything like this with him - they are ordinarily very hands-off - and I think he was just caught completely off-guard. He wanted to have an adult conversation with them and explain why we aren't spending a fortune on our wedding, but they were not open to that conversation; I think it's a case of them not realizing that their first-born is all grown up and thinking they could bully him into doing what they want. By the end of the conversation, they seemed to be starting to get it and they will certainly be made to understand it for sure in the very near future.

kkitkat79 · September 2015

nerdwife said:

As for my FI and what happened with his parents, while I understand what you're saying - afterwards I made similar points to him about what happens if they want to get involved with child-rearing decisions and such - I am confident that we will stop this all very soon and they will get the message that he and I are a decision-making unit, not him and them. This was the first time his parents ever pulled anything like this with him - they are ordinarily very hands-off - and I think he was just caught completely off-guard. He wanted to have an adult conversation with them and explain why we aren't spending a fortune on our wedding, but they were not open to that conversation; I think it's a case of them not realizing that their first-born is all grown up and thinking they could bully him into doing what they want. By the end of the conversation, they seemed to be starting to get it and they will certainly be made to understand it for sure in the very near future.

This is exactly it. Don't worry about long term effects on your relationship with them. I am sure they do love their son and as long as you both are consistent with setting boundaries they will get over the shock that he is an independent adult now with his own family that comes first. They will come around eventually.

Pupatella · September 2015

delujm0's point, I am one of the ones that not only got 100% RSVP yes's, but am actually over, and it's pretty much due to the "we won't be coming". One of my family members overseas has been very sick for over 2 years. He is immediate family, and I sent his family a save the date and was crossing my fingers that they would come. About a month before we sent the invitations, he had another medical emergency, and told me that he's sorry, but there is no way that he can make it. I completely understood. I ended up inviting one of my buddies back home instead (keep in mind I did not have a B list, and my FI and I made that decision before we sent out the invitations). Sent my family member a save the date, so had to send them an invitation, and was full on expecting a no RSVP. To my surprise, he recovered quickly, is in therapy doing very well (yea!), and they changed their mind and are coming. I'm SUPER excited, and luckily I won't go over capacity by having them there (but I am pretty much to my max capacity at the venue).

So it's very smart to not send out RSVP's expecting a no response.

nerdwife, you are very smart to not let your FIL's walk all over you guys and have their way with your wedding. I agree that this can bleed over into other aspects of your life. I really hope this works out for you!!

themosthappy91 · September 2015

OP, just wanted to chime in and let you know 1) I feel for ya and 2) please keep us updated on how this situation turns out if/when your FI has another talk with his parents.

I was in a similar boat in many ways- now-H is super un-confrontational and very much a golden child so a lot of the early years of our relationship were about him learning how to set boundaries with his parents, who were used to him doing exactly what they wanted all the time.

And truthfully he was not good at it. It took quite a few major conflicts and some serious growing up for him to realize that while compromise is good in theory, it doesn't work out with "give them an inch they take a mile people," which is exactly what his parents are like. Our biggest fights ever have been about that very issue.

Luckily we got most of that out of the way before we ever got engaged, so by the time we got around to the wedding he was able to give him mom a firm no about adding crazy amounts of guests, even with her crying and hysterical over it.

The point is, it takes practice but don't get too worked up over the "if he's like this now imagine how bad it will be in the future/when you have kids/for the rest of your life" mentality. You know your FI and if you feel confident that when push comes to shove he'll prioritize you and your relationship, just settle in and be patient with him as he figures out this very new dynamic with his parents. He's not going to be perfect at it at first, but he will improve.

MesmrEwe · September 2015

Because this is only the tip of the iceberg for situations and interactions you'll have with these people in the future... Yes, you are entitled to have the wedding you want without the input from others except for your FI (as long as it's only the two of you paying for it). No, you don't have to invite anyone to your wedding. You are free to make choices for your wedding. You however are marrying into FI's family, and what you're doing now is setting the tone for your future interactions.

I'm going to do a little "Devil's Advocate" here for your FIL's because this is ultimately something that's going to appear again in other areas not Wedding Etiquette related... So FFIL doesn't like the distance to the venue - Did you bother to listen to his reasons why, no matter how "trivial" they might be (to you) or just assume. Though your wedding may be done at 5:00, that doesn't mean 100% of everything outside of you two is done and wrapped up. People stick around and mingle, people meet up for dinner, Apres' party, etc.. Others have family dynamics that exist to keep the peace (ala: Hatfields & McCoy's), that you aren't going to "win". Did you even have the budget/guest list discussion with the in-laws before talking venues/details/size? (even though you're paying for it, they may have assumed they'd be asked to help) The problem is, you'd already closed the discussion before you likely had it, no alternatives were going to be considered in your approach, which comes across not as them being unreasonable, but you. With that being the case, you shouldn't have invited them to be involved in anything because you're coming across as "We want your non-input". Never ask for feedback if you don't actually want it, this is life, not a business meeting. You invited them along to the tasting to voice their opinions before you booked, that was your first mistake. A lot of this also comes across as it's your day and not FI's. He changed his mind on what you discussed, that means he wasn't likely on board with it in the first place or has another alternative. And, that's something the two of you need to communicate about because this is a relatively small thing in life, what happens when it's the big things and he has a completely different way of wanting something done than you do.. Really this is stuff you two need to think about together and no amount of internet forum is going to change family dynamics. If you don't want the parents involved, let the next communication with them about the wedding be their invitation.

nerdwife · September 2015

themosthappy91 said:

OP, just wanted to chime in and let you know 1) I feel for ya and 2) please keep us updated on how this situation turns out if/when your FI has another talk with his parents.

I was in a similar boat in many ways- now-H is super un-confrontational and very much a golden child so a lot of the early years of our relationship were about him learning how to set boundaries with his parents, who were used to him doing exactly what they wanted all the time.

And truthfully he was not good at it. It took quite a few major conflicts and some serious growing up for him to realize that while compromise is good in theory, it doesn't work out with "give them an inch they take a mile people," which is exactly what his parents are like. Our biggest fights ever have been about that very issue.

Luckily we got most of that out of the way before we ever got engaged, so by the time we got around to the wedding he was able to give him mom a firm no about adding crazy amounts of guests, even with her crying and hysterical over it.

The point is, it takes practice but don't get too worked up over the "if he's like this now imagine how bad it will be in the future/when you have kids/for the rest of your life" mentality. You know your FI and if you feel confident that when push comes to shove he'll prioritize you and your relationship, just settle in and be patient with him as he figures out this very new dynamic with his parents. He's not going to be perfect at it at first, but he will improve.

Thank you so much for this - I really appreciate it. I am confident that everything is going to be fine - FI and I have a very solid relationship and I'm not worried about the future (clearly, or else I wouldn't have signed a contract to marry him next October). It's good to hear other people having similar problems and working through it.

MesmrEwe said:

Because this is only the tip of the iceberg for situations and interactions you'll have with these people in the future... Yes, you are entitled to have the wedding you want without the input from others except for your FI (as long as it's only the two of you paying for it). No, you don't have to invite anyone to your wedding. You are free to make choices for your wedding. You however are marrying into FI's family, and what you're doing now is setting the tone for your future interactions.
I'm going to do a little "Devil's Advocate" here for your FIL's because this is ultimately something that's going to appear again in other areas not Wedding Etiquette related... So FFIL doesn't like the distance to the venue - Did you bother to listen to his reasons why, no matter how "trivial" they might be (to you) or just assume. Though your wedding may be done at 5:00, that doesn't mean 100% of everything outside of you two is done and wrapped up. People stick around and mingle, people meet up for dinner, Apres' party, etc.. Others have family dynamics that exist to keep the peace (ala: Hatfields & McCoy's), that you aren't going to "win". Did you even have the budget/guest list discussion with the in-laws before talking venues/details/size? (even though you're paying for it, they may have assumed they'd be asked to help) The problem is, you'd already closed the discussion before you likely had it, no alternatives were going to be considered in your approach, which comes across not as them being unreasonable, but you. With that being the case, you shouldn't have invited them to be involved in anything because you're coming across as "We want your non-input". Never ask for feedback if you don't actually want it, this is life, not a business meeting. You invited them along to the tasting to voice their opinions before you booked, that was your first mistake. A lot of this also comes across as it's your day and not FI's. He changed his mind on what you discussed, that means he wasn't likely on board with it in the first place or has another alternative. And, that's something the two of you need to communicate about because this is a relatively small thing in life, what happens when it's the big things and he has a completely different way of wanting something done than you do.. Really this is stuff you two need to think about together and no amount of internet forum is going to change family dynamics. If you don't want the parents involved, let the next communication with them about the wedding be their invitation.

As to this, I also appreciate your input. I guess I didn't give a too clear picture of everything because my original post was long enough. To answer some of this, FI's parents are hands-off in all things and we assumed the same would be true about our wedding. In fact, though my mom decided to have a bbq the day after we got engaged with our family and a couple close friends to celebrate, after FI's initial call to his parents to tell them it happened (they knew it was coming), they didn't call or text or invite us over or anything. When we were looking at other venues, his sister wanted to come with us, so we told his parents we would come by after the venue tour when we dropped his sister off to spend time with them. They agreed, but when we went to pick up his sister, they came out and congratulated us in person and then said they wouldn't be around later because they decided to go to the beach, effectively canceling the only plans we had with them since our engagement weeks earlier.

That's all fine - I get that that's the way they are. Before we called to invite them to the venue (because, despite the fact that they never seemed interested, I always wanted them to feel like they could be involved), FI warned me that they might not want to come because it's not the kind of thing they do and that I shouldn't take it personally.

And that's why we feel so blindsided about all of this. They didn't seem enthusiastic or interested in the fact that we are engaged and planning a wedding, so how can they turn around now and make demands about what we're doing?

We never had a sit-down budget or planning meeting with them because we know that none of our parents can afford to contribute, so that would be super awkward if we sat them all down and were like how much money are you giving us. However, his parents had an idea that we would be doing a small wedding because when he told them he was planning to propose, they asked about our wedding plans. FI told them that we're way more interested in saving money for a down payment than we are on spending a lot of money on a wedding (PS - this is in no way a value judgment of other people's spending on their wedding - to each his own), to which they responded that's great and you must've found the right person.

As for the distance, FI holds that this is the sort of ridiculous thing FFIL would choose to complain out for no reason other than selfishness. We listened to him complain about it to our faces on Saturday and he never once offered any actual reasoning. Since he's an adult and since he was basically just attacking our choice of venue, we didn't feel like we had to coax out some elaborate reason why he's harping on it. He's being unreasonable and that's it - nothing more to see or say.

So you can see why this is all a great shock to us.

As to your comment that this comes across as my day and not FI's, maybe you've read it that way, but it's not accurate. FI is with me every step of the way. He didn't change his mind about the content of what we were saying, just the approach. Trust me, I have not made a single decision without him 100% with me, and vice versa. He is aware and upset that his family is behaving this way and wants to put his foot down with them as well. We did have a communication problem about the way he wanted to approach the situation, but that's not a reflection on our relationship as a whole - communication is something we have always prioritized, and this is just one lesson in it.

I do have an update on all this but I think I'll start a separate post for it.

nerdwife · September 2015

Okay, so here's the update: I have been stressed about this whole thing since Saturday. I felt like this should've been handled better (obvs) and now it's hanging over us and it was bumming me out. So yesterday I asked FI to call his parents when he got home from work (with me next to him so I could hear and potentially speak up). He agreed and called his mom twice but she didn't answer (talk about anticlimactic). I felt like I still didn't want this hanging over us, so he offered to send his mom an email.

In the email, he said that we find it upsetting that FFIL keeps complaining about the distance, especially because the boy scout camp he used to go to was way farther and they had to go there more than once, and this a place they have to go to one time for something quite a bit more important than camp.

He also said that, as we discussed, they can add up to six people.

I felt much better - the email was short and to the point and was kind of what I wanted all along.

His mom did respond a while later, saying they didn't mean to upset us, but why aren't we inviting this person and that person. She ignored the first part about the distance of the venue - FI is sure that's just FFIL being selfish (as stated in previous post) and she doesn't even care enough to try to argue on his behalf.

Honestly, it's not like they are blindsided by the fact that we want a small wedding - as stated in my previous post, they were aware of our desire to keep it relatively inexpensive. We're also not the first people on the planet to decide to have a small wedding, so it's hard to understand why they can't understand where we're coming from. I do understand that many people wish to have large weddings with all family members in attendance, but we are not those people, and this is the way we are starting our marriage, and that's kind of it.

Anyway, I do feel much better that FI put out our thoughts in that direct manner, even though FMIL is still arguing with us. The way we see it now, they have almost a year to get over it - at least they know where we stand and what we're doing.

Thanks again everyone so much for the support and advice and the stories - you have no idea how much it helped to have a sounding board through all of this!

Jen4948 · September 2015

nerdwife said:

Okay, so here's the update: I have been stressed about this whole thing since Saturday. I felt like this should've been handled better (obvs) and now it's hanging over us and it was bumming me out. So yesterday I asked FI to call his parents when he got home from work (with me next to him so I could hear and potentially speak up). He agreed and called his mom twice but she didn't answer (talk about anticlimactic). I felt like I still didn't want this hanging over us, so he offered to send his mom an email.

In the email, he said that we find it upsetting that FFIL keeps complaining about the distance, especially because the boy scout camp he used to go to was way farther and they had to go there more than once, and this a place they have to go to one time for something quite a bit more important than camp.

He also said that, as we discussed, they can add up to six people.

I felt much better - the email was short and to the point and was kind of what I wanted all along.

His mom did respond a while later, saying they didn't mean to upset us, but why aren't we inviting this person and that person. She ignored the first part about the distance of the venue - FI is sure that's just FFIL being selfish (as stated in previous post) and she doesn't even care enough to try to argue on his behalf.

Honestly, it's not like they are blindsided by the fact that we want a small wedding - as stated in my previous post, they were aware of our desire to keep it relatively inexpensive. We're also not the first people on the planet to decide to have a small wedding, so it's hard to understand why they can't understand where we're coming from. I do understand that many people wish to have large weddings with all family members in attendance, but we are not those people, and this is the way we are starting our marriage, and that's kind of it.

Anyway, I do feel much better that FI put out our thoughts in that direct manner, even though FMIL is still arguing with us. The way we see it now, they have almost a year to get over it - at least they know where we stand and what we're doing.

Thanks again everyone so much for the support and advice and the stories - you have no idea how much it helped to have a sounding board through all of this!

Well, at least this time your FI was on your side.

As for why your in-laws can't understand your wanting a small wedding, maybe for them it's a "know your crowd" thing. What was their wedding like? Were other weddings in their family and circle all "big family reunion" style weddings? If they're not used to attending small, intimate weddings, maybe that's why they can't wrap their heads around your wishes for a small wedding?

As far as what to do about their attitudes, your FI needs to keep standing firm and making clear that no matter how much they protest, your plans are not going to change and that you're not willing to listen to their complaints anymore.

ryanandjoe4 · September 2015

I am not one to sit back, and let my FI family take advantage of him, so I would have had a hard time not speaking up. and I would just keep your cool, and let FI handle it as much as possible, but I also wouldn't let him get railroaded.

talk to your FI and if he is OK with you chiming in next time then I would.

This third meeting about the guest list is unnecessary, but take your total budget for the entire wedding divide that by the total guests and that is what it is per person. Lay it out for them: "If we invite your 6 extra then the total amount is $$. Save the dates are being ordered (this date), and if we have the $$ for your extra guests by then we will include them in the count." end of discussion.

They will have a total amount of money they need to give you if they want 8 people (it is better than 22 people). As long as the venue will not be too crowded you will be fine. If they fight that, I would say this is all WE are willing to compromise on OUR wedding (united front), we are paying for this and we want to keep the guest list to close friends and family, if you are unwilling to get past this then we will have to keep wedding discussions to a minimum. if they continue to harass about it, sometimes people just need you to be rude back, and FI needs to say if this continues to be a problem it is going to be hard to enjoy this time planning and the day with you, but your giving me no choice to leave you out of the decisions if this will constantly be a problem. you both need to put your foot down at this point...

I also like the family reunion line, throw that in there too..

nerdwife · September 2015

Jen4948 said:

Well, at least this time your FI was on your side.
As for why your in-laws can't understand your wanting a small wedding, maybe for them it's a "know your crowd" thing. What was their wedding like? Were other weddings in their family and circle all "big family reunion" style weddings? If they're not used to attending small, intimate weddings, maybe that's why they can't wrap their heads around your wishes for a small wedding?
As far as what to do about their attitudes, your FI needs to keep standing firm and making clear that no matter how much they protest, your plans are not going to change and that you're not willing to listen to their complaints anymore.

FI is the oldest (of two) and the first to get married, so it's not a sibling expectation. Their close cousins - the ones on our list - all did have big, traditional weddings, but on Saturday when FI brought that up as a contrast (our wedding won't/can't look like that), FILs were all like "of course not" and "those are crazy." So to answer your question: I do not know.

Ironically, my oldest brother had a very big wedding and my other brother is planning an even bigger wedding for a couple months after us, yet my mom knew and understood that I'm different from my brothers and wouldn't want that, plus don't have the kind of resources they did/do.

FI will definitely keep standing firm on this. The saddest part is really that we would be willing to talk through it a little more with them if we felt they wouldn't respond with the whole "give an inch take a mile" attitude. For example, FMIL complained that an elderly great uncle from another state isn't being invited, and my mom had the same complaint. Since it's exceedingly unlikely that a frail and elderly person would be willing/able to travel so far, I already told my mom that we can send invitations to those people, though if they by some magic can come, she'd have to cover the costs. We'd be willing to make that same offer to FILs, except for that when we tried that tactic on Saturday, FFIL was suddenly adding all sorts of cousins that just happen to live a plane ride away and "probably won't come," which is not at all the same.

ryanandjoe4 said:

I am not one to sit back, and let my FI family take advantage of him, so I would have had a hard time not speaking up. and I would just keep your cool, and let FI handle it as much as possible, but I also wouldn't let him get railroaded.

talk to your FI and if he is OK with you chiming in next time then I would.

This third meeting about the guest list is unnecessary, but take your total budget for the entire wedding divide that by the total guests and that is what it is per person. Lay it out for them: "If we invite your 6 extra then the total amount is $$. Save the dates are being ordered (this date), and if we have the $$ for your extra guests by then we will include them in the count." end of discussion.

They will have a total amount of money they need to give you if they want 8 people (it is better than 22 people). As long as the venue will not be too crowded you will be fine. If they fight that, I would say this is all WE are willing to compromise on OUR wedding (united front), we are paying for this and we want to keep the guest list to close friends and family, if you are unwilling to get past this then we will have to keep wedding discussions to a minimum. if they continue to harass about it, sometimes people just need you to be rude back, and FI needs to say if this continues to be a problem it is going to be hard to enjoy this time planning and the day with you, but your giving me no choice to leave you out of the decisions if this will constantly be a problem. you both need to put your foot down at this point...

I also like the family reunion line, throw that in there too..

It was important to me that I don't alienate my FILs by arguing with them, which is why I didn't speak up. I feel like if this continues for much longer (or happens repeatedly), I might have to speak up, but it's not what I'd prefer. I do understand what you mean though - it was really hard. I also sort of agree that at some point (if this continues), FI might have to show a little more emotion with them/be less polite and nice about it. Sometimes I think parents need to see that their adult kids have real thoughts and feelings and they can't just say what they want anymore.

I also hear what you're saying about dividing the total wedding cost between the number of guests, but I truthfully don't feel comfortable with that math. With or without their extra six guests or my mom's extra six guests, the DJ, photographer, etc will (as far as I know) cost the same. I do understand factoring in STDs (if we do them), invitations, gratuity, and maybe centerpiece costs and we might do that (though we already told them the price it is for the venue/food/drink, so not sure it's right to go changing numbers now). I guess we'll have to think about it more.

ryanandjoe4 · September 2015

nerdwife said:

Jen4948 said:

Well, at least this time your FI was on your side.
As for why your in-laws can't understand your wanting a small wedding, maybe for them it's a "know your crowd" thing. What was their wedding like? Were other weddings in their family and circle all "big family reunion" style weddings? If they're not used to attending small, intimate weddings, maybe that's why they can't wrap their heads around your wishes for a small wedding?
As far as what to do about their attitudes, your FI needs to keep standing firm and making clear that no matter how much they protest, your plans are not going to change and that you're not willing to listen to their complaints anymore.

FI is the oldest (of two) and the first to get married, so it's not a sibling expectation. Their close cousins - the ones on our list - all did have big, traditional weddings, but on Saturday when FI brought that up as a contrast (our wedding won't/can't look like that), FILs were all like "of course not" and "those are crazy." So to answer your question: I do not know.

Ironically, my oldest brother had a very big wedding and my other brother is planning an even bigger wedding for a couple months after us, yet my mom knew and understood that I'm different from my brothers and wouldn't want that, plus don't have the kind of resources they did/do.

FI will definitely keep standing firm on this. The saddest part is really that we would be willing to talk through it a little more with them if we felt they wouldn't respond with the whole "give an inch take a mile" attitude. For example, FMIL complained that an elderly great uncle from another state isn't being invited, and my mom had the same complaint. Since it's exceedingly unlikely that a frail and elderly person would be willing/able to travel so far, I already told my mom that we can send invitations to those people, though if they by some magic can come, she'd have to cover the costs. We'd be willing to make that same offer to FILs, except for that when we tried that tactic on Saturday, FFIL was suddenly adding all sorts of cousins that just happen to live a plane ride away and "probably won't come," which is not at all the same.

ryanandjoe4 said:

I am not one to sit back, and let my FI family take advantage of him, so I would have had a hard time not speaking up. and I would just keep your cool, and let FI handle it as much as possible, but I also wouldn't let him get railroaded.

talk to your FI and if he is OK with you chiming in next time then I would.

This third meeting about the guest list is unnecessary, but take your total budget for the entire wedding divide that by the total guests and that is what it is per person. Lay it out for them: "If we invite your 6 extra then the total amount is $$. Save the dates are being ordered (this date), and if we have the $$ for your extra guests by then we will include them in the count." end of discussion.

They will have a total amount of money they need to give you if they want 8 people (it is better than 22 people). As long as the venue will not be too crowded you will be fine. If they fight that, I would say this is all WE are willing to compromise on OUR wedding (united front), we are paying for this and we want to keep the guest list to close friends and family, if you are unwilling to get past this then we will have to keep wedding discussions to a minimum. if they continue to harass about it, sometimes people just need you to be rude back, and FI needs to say if this continues to be a problem it is going to be hard to enjoy this time planning and the day with you, but your giving me no choice to leave you out of the decisions if this will constantly be a problem. you both need to put your foot down at this point...

I also like the family reunion line, throw that in there too..

It was important to me that I don't alienate my FILs by arguing with them, which is why I didn't speak up. I feel like if this continues for much longer (or happens repeatedly), I might have to speak up, but it's not what I'd prefer. I do understand what you mean though - it was really hard. I also sort of agree that at some point (if this continues), FI might have to show a little more emotion with them/be less polite and nice about it. Sometimes I think parents need to see that their adult kids have real thoughts and feelings and they can't just say what they want anymore.

I also hear what you're saying about dividing the total wedding cost between the number of guests, but I truthfully don't feel comfortable with that math. With or without their extra six guests or my mom's extra six guests, the DJ, photographer, etc will (as far as I know) cost the same. I do understand factoring in STDs (if we do them), invitations, gratuity, and maybe centerpiece costs and we might do that (though we already told them the price it is for the venue/food/drink, so not sure it's right to go changing numbers now). I guess we'll have to think about it more.

I believe you did right by staying out this long, don't get me wrong, but like you said there is a time when parents need to realize your an adult, and that your a team in this together. Also if you don't feel comfortable with that math that's fine, my point was being about prepared to come at them with an amount they need for the 6 guests they are paying for, and making it a point of moving on and leaving the subject behind, if they really want their guests to be invited they will make it a point to get their $$ to you.

Pupatella · September 2015

I think that you chiming in with any future conversation you have with your FIL's on this subject, is a really good idea. Just stating your opinion, and explaining things is in no means overstepping or rude. Just say things very calmly and carefully worded.

Instead of saying something like "We are not inviting that many people. We are having a small wedding. End of conversation".

Say something like this "I feel like we are not meeting your expectations and making you upset by choosing to have a small wedding. I really don't want to make you upset, and want to start off this marriage on a positive note with you both. I wish you would understand and respect where we are coming from. Hopefully we can move past this".

Or "I hear you that you want invitations sent to about 30 people, who you are thinking will respond no. But what happens if they all decide to come? We will not be able to properly host everyone if that situation happens, and that would be heartbreaking. I really think it would be best to not send any of those family members an invitation".

PrettyGirlLost · September 2015

Pupatella said:

I think that you chiming in with any future conversation you have with your FIL's on this subject, is a really good idea. Just stating your opinion, and explaining things is in no means overstepping or rude. Just say things very calmly and carefully worded.

Instead of saying something like "We are not inviting that many people. We are having a small wedding. End of conversation".

Say something like this "I feel like we are not meeting your expectations and making you upset by choosing to have a small wedding. I really don't want to make you upset, and want to start off this marriage on a positive note with you both. I wish you would understand and respect where we are coming from. Hopefully we can move past this".

Or "I hear you that you want invitations sent to about 30 people, who you are thinking will respond no. But what happens if they all decide to come? We will not be able to properly host everyone if that situation happens, and that would be heartbreaking. I really think it would be best to not send any of those family members an invitation".

Her FILs are just refusing to hear what she and her FI are saying though.

They need to respond to their FILs in such a way that makes it clear there is absolutely no more room for discussion on this issue.

"I'm sorry you're upset with our plans, that is not our intent blah blah But we have decided upon that venue and have booked it, and since we decided on having a small wedding we cannot accommodate anyone else beyond the 6 guests we agreed upon last week. Please let me know their names and addresses."

And then that's it. If they start with the moaning and bitching and but this and but that, change the subject or politely excuse yourselves. And do that every time they try and bring this subject up again. Don't answer any texts or emails related to this subject either, other than to follow up with the names and addresses of the 6 guests or to thank them for that info.

And your FI MUST do the same, as it's likely they will try to appeal directly to him since he gave in to them by giving them additional guests last time.

Pupatella · September 2015

PrettyGirlLost said:

Pupatella said:

I think that you chiming in with any future conversation you have with your FIL's on this subject, is a really good idea. Just stating your opinion, and explaining things is in no means overstepping or rude. Just say things very calmly and carefully worded.

Instead of saying something like "We are not inviting that many people. We are having a small wedding. End of conversation".

Say something like this "I feel like we are not meeting your expectations and making you upset by choosing to have a small wedding. I really don't want to make you upset, and want to start off this marriage on a positive note with you both. I wish you would understand and respect where we are coming from. Hopefully we can move past this".

Or "I hear you that you want invitations sent to about 30 people, who you are thinking will respond no. But what happens if they all decide to come? We will not be able to properly host everyone if that situation happens, and that would be heartbreaking. I really think it would be best to not send any of those family members an invitation".

Her FILs are just refusing to hear what she and her FI are saying though.

They need to respond to their FILs in such a way that makes it clear there is absolutely no more room for discussion on this issue.

"I'm sorry you're upset with our plans, that is not our intent blah blah But we have decided upon that venue and have booked it, and since we decided on having a small wedding we cannot accommodate anyone else beyond the 6 guests we agreed upon last week. Please let me know their names and addresses."

And then that's it. If they start with the moaning and bitching and but this and but that, change the subject or politely excuse yourselves. And do that every time they try and bring this subject up again. Don't answer any texts or emails related to this subject either, other than to follow up with the names and addresses of the 6 guests or to thank them for that info.

And your FI MUST do the same, as it's likely they will try to appeal directly to him since he gave in to them by giving them additional guests last time.

Agreed that they need to stand firm. But it sounds like @nerdwife hasn't said much if anything to FIL's about this, and has left it up to her FI to handle so far. The FI isn't really standing as firm as @nerdwife wants currently (hopefully that will change!) I think it's time for her to start adding to the conversations instead of just sitting next to FI and kicking him under the table. Just was saying that she can add to the convo's firmly but nicely, since she doesn't want to harm the future relationship with her IL's.

nerdwife · September 2015

PrettyGirlLost said:

Her FILs are just refusing to hear what she and her FI are saying though.

They need to respond to their FILs in such a way that makes it clear there is absolutely no more room for discussion on this issue.

"I'm sorry you're upset with our plans, that is not our intent blah blah But we have decided upon that venue and have booked it, and since we decided on having a small wedding we cannot accommodate anyone else beyond the 6 guests we agreed upon last week. Please let me know their names and addresses."

And then that's it. If they start with the moaning and bitching and but this and but that, change the subject or politely excuse yourselves. And do that every time they try and bring this subject up again. Don't answer any texts or emails related to this subject either, other than to follow up with the names and addresses of the 6 guests or to thank them for that info.

And your FI MUST do the same, as it's likely they will try to appeal directly to him since he gave in to them by giving them additional guests last time.

Pupatella said:

Agreed that they need to stand firm. But it sounds like @nerdwife hasn't said much if anything to FIL's about this, and has left it up to her FI to handle so far. The FI isn't really standing as firm as @nerdwife wants currently (hopefully that will change!) I think it's time for her to start adding to the conversations instead of just sitting next to FI and kicking him under the table. Just was saying that she can add to the convo's firmly but nicely, since she doesn't want to harm the future relationship with her IL's.

I basically agree with all of this? We collectively need to be firm with them - I think the time for understanding has come and gone, as FI tried that on Saturday and it didn't work - but, ideally, the real firmness comes from FI and not from me. Which I think is what you're both getting at?

PrettyGirlLost · September 2015

nerdwife said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

Her FILs are just refusing to hear what she and her FI are saying though.

They need to respond to their FILs in such a way that makes it clear there is absolutely no more room for discussion on this issue.

"I'm sorry you're upset with our plans, that is not our intent blah blah But we have decided upon that venue and have booked it, and since we decided on having a small wedding we cannot accommodate anyone else beyond the 6 guests we agreed upon last week. Please let me know their names and addresses."

And then that's it. If they start with the moaning and bitching and but this and but that, change the subject or politely excuse yourselves. And do that every time they try and bring this subject up again. Don't answer any texts or emails related to this subject either, other than to follow up with the names and addresses of the 6 guests or to thank them for that info.

And your FI MUST do the same, as it's likely they will try to appeal directly to him since he gave in to them by giving them additional guests last time.

Pupatella said:

Agreed that they need to stand firm. But it sounds like @nerdwife hasn't said much if anything to FIL's about this, and has left it up to her FI to handle so far. The FI isn't really standing as firm as @nerdwife wants currently (hopefully that will change!) I think it's time for her to start adding to the conversations instead of just sitting next to FI and kicking him under the table. Just was saying that she can add to the convo's firmly but nicely, since she doesn't want to harm the future relationship with her IL's.

I basically agree with all of this? We collectively need to be firm with them - I think the time for understanding has come and gone, as FI tried that on Saturday and it didn't work - but, ideally, the real firmness comes from FI and not from me. Which I think is what you're both getting at?

Sure, as long as he actually says it and follows through with it. But there's no reason why you can't also speak up as well, especially if you are involved in the conversation, they are talking to you, emailing you, etc.

It's not like you are going to spend your entire marriage until they die *not* saying anything in disagreement to your FIL's right? You can tactfully tell them no now.

nerdwife · September 2015

PrettyGirlLost said:

Sure, as long as he actually says it and follows through with it. But there's no reason why you can't also speak up as well, especially if you are involved in the conversation, they are talking to you, emailing you, etc.

It's not like you are going to spend your entire marriage until they die *not* saying anything in disagreement to your FIL's right? You can tactfully tell them no now.

Yes, I know what you mean. If we have another sit down conversation with them and it comes up again, I will probably have to speak up. Or I suppose if this same situation happens again over another topic. Ugh. I was hoping not to have to, though I guess when you put it that way (that I will never say anything to them ever), that desire seems a little silly. *le sigh*

TheCheeseWench · October 2015

I feel you. We wanted 50 people total. MIL's list alone was 45 (my mother's was 13). I chose to go ahead and give them both what they asked for, but I did it because the whole reason we didn't just elope in the first place was for them. I figured if I was going to do the whole "wedding" thing to make them happy, it would defeat the purpose if it turned into a fight over the guest list. We did cut it off short of inviting MIL'S cousins because she has so many (oh side note...anyone remember when I got the yes RSVP from her cousin who was given the invite by MIL's aunt who could not attend? They freaking no-showed) but we did allow her to invite much of her extended family and a few friends.

Having said that, I totally agree that you are in the right here. They should not be bullying you into going over budget to accommodate their wants. Your FI needs to back your collective decision 100%.

As for the venue whining, we got a bit of that from his family, but when they all got down here they loved it. We were very happy that we stood or ground on that. Had we let them change our minds and do it locally, there WOULD have been a guest list battle. BIL's wedding had 600 guests. I fear it would have gotten out of hand for us as well.

Best of luck!

southernbelle0915 · October 2015

I just read through all of this. We had the same issue with my ILs. They were not contributing to the wedding at all and even said things like "everyone will hate you if you don't invite..." Really? We just kept saying "budget" and "space" and "this is what we've chosen". Over and over again.

Now, DH's sister isn't even engaged and they've already asked me questions about how much they should be saving to pay for her wedding...which is annoying for another reason, but whatever. I told them how much some of our stuff cost and they had major sticker shock. Well, no shit. That's why we couldn't invite their secretary and hairdresser and...

lc07 · October 2015

OP, it sounds like you are trying really hard to get on the same page with your FI and work through this and I admire that. It just sounds so much like you still have a FI problem. I'm not saying it's a not-fixable problem but do you still need to monitor his call to his parents to make sure he handles it correctly? Are you okay with needing to do that more moving forward in your marriage? I wouldn't want to deal with that. IDK, that just sounds like you have to be super overbearing and micro-managing and that isn't healthy IMO. You and FI have had multiple discussions about this. I don't know what it is at this point that your FI doesn't understand where you can't trust the conversation he will have with his parents about this.

JediElizabeth · October 2015

lc07 said:

OP, it sounds like you are trying really hard to get on the same page with your FI and work through this and I admire that. It just sounds so much like you still have a FI problem. I'm not saying it's a not-fixable problem but do you still need to monitor his call to his parents to make sure he handles it correctly? Are you okay with needing to do that more moving forward in your marriage? I wouldn't want to deal with that. IDK, that just sounds like you have to be super overbearing and micro-managing and that isn't healthy IMO. You and FI have had multiple discussions about this. I don't know what it is at this point that your FI doesn't understand where you can't trust the conversation he will have with his parents about this.

Wait....I must have missed this earlier on. Monitor his calls?

No. Never do that. This is a huge red flag for a controlling relationship, or at the very least a relationship with an unhealthy power differential.

You may both agree to have calls with his parents together (conference style) when talking about the wedding, but that's as far as I would go. He needs to have a relationship with his parents separate from you, where he talks to them about things you talk to your parents about - how your job's going, health stuff, whatever. And you should pretty much never actively monitor another adult's calls, either by silently listening without one half knowing, or just knowing every time they talk to each other.

lc07 · October 2015

nerdwife said:

Okay, so here's the update: I have been stressed about this whole thing since Saturday. I felt like this should've been handled better (obvs) and now it's hanging over us and it was bumming me out. So yesterday I asked FI to call his parents when he got home from work (with me next to him so I could hear and potentially speak up). He agreed and called his mom twice but she didn't answer (talk about anticlimactic). I felt like I still didn't want this hanging over us, so he offered to send his mom an email.

@JediElizabeth I was referring to the bolded. I don't think OP actually sat in on the line unannounced.

nerdwife · October 2015

JediElizabeth said:

lc07 said:

OP, it sounds like you are trying really hard to get on the same page with your FI and work through this and I admire that. It just sounds so much like you still have a FI problem. I'm not saying it's a not-fixable problem but do you still need to monitor his call to his parents to make sure he handles it correctly? Are you okay with needing to do that more moving forward in your marriage? I wouldn't want to deal with that. IDK, that just sounds like you have to be super overbearing and micro-managing and that isn't healthy IMO. You and FI have had multiple discussions about this. I don't know what it is at this point that your FI doesn't understand where you can't trust the conversation he will have with his parents about this.

Wait....I must have missed this earlier on. Monitor his calls?

No. Never do that. This is a huge red flag for a controlling relationship, or at the very least a relationship with an unhealthy power differential.

You may both agree to have calls with his parents together (conference style) when talking about the wedding, but that's as far as I would go. He needs to have a relationship with his parents separate from you, where he talks to them about things you talk to your parents about - how your job's going, health stuff, whatever. And you should pretty much never actively monitor another adult's calls, either by silently listening without one half knowing, or just knowing every time they talk to each other.

Yeah, no, I would never monitor his calls or his life in any way. I just meant that it would be like a group chat/conference call.

FI and I are totally on the same page on this (and everything else). The problem was how he wanted to address his parents, which I understand is complicated. Like I've said, everyone wants to make their parents happy/have their parents be happy for them, especially for something as big as a wedding, and that's just not happening here. He wasn't communicative about the fact that he wanted to handle the situation more diplomatically (rather than more firmly), and he understands now that was a mistake. The follow-up email he sent was firm, and he knows now that that is the tone he has to take going forward. I would've been open to hearing him out about how to address his parents in the first place (they are his parents, after all), but he didn't bring that up. That was the problem - his unexpected (and sadly, ineffective) approach, not that he didn't agree with me.

I only wanted to be involved on this particular call in the same way I was involved with the in-person meeting. Obviously FILs need to understand that FI and I are the ones making decisions about our life and money and such, so I wanted to keep being a team on that. He can - and does - have conversations with his parents to which I'm not a party. Anything otherwise would be insane and, if that's how you read that, then yes, totally cause for alarm. I assure you, though, not the case here. I'm stressed just thinking about doing that.

ETA: The reason I even decided to go with him in the first place was because of the advice I received here, which was obviously the right call, so thanks for that again, ladies!

JediElizabeth · October 2015

lc07 said:

nerdwife said:

Okay, so here's the update: I have been stressed about this whole thing since Saturday. I felt like this should've been handled better (obvs) and now it's hanging over us and it was bumming me out. So yesterday I asked FI to call his parents when he got home from work (with me next to him so I could hear and potentially speak up). He agreed and called his mom twice but she didn't answer (talk about anticlimactic). I felt like I still didn't want this hanging over us, so he offered to send his mom an email.

@JediElizabeth I was referring to the bolded. I don't think OP actually sat in on the line unannounced.

OH, okay. Good...I was concerned for a moment there!

ryanandjoe4 · October 2015

nerdwife said:

JediElizabeth said:

lc07 said:

OP, it sounds like you are trying really hard to get on the same page with your FI and work through this and I admire that. It just sounds so much like you still have a FI problem. I'm not saying it's a not-fixable problem but do you still need to monitor his call to his parents to make sure he handles it correctly? Are you okay with needing to do that more moving forward in your marriage? I wouldn't want to deal with that. IDK, that just sounds like you have to be super overbearing and micro-managing and that isn't healthy IMO. You and FI have had multiple discussions about this. I don't know what it is at this point that your FI doesn't understand where you can't trust the conversation he will have with his parents about this.

Wait....I must have missed this earlier on. Monitor his calls?

No. Never do that. This is a huge red flag for a controlling relationship, or at the very least a relationship with an unhealthy power differential.

You may both agree to have calls with his parents together (conference style) when talking about the wedding, but that's as far as I would go. He needs to have a relationship with his parents separate from you, where he talks to them about things you talk to your parents about - how your job's going, health stuff, whatever. And you should pretty much never actively monitor another adult's calls, either by silently listening without one half knowing, or just knowing every time they talk to each other.

Yeah, no, I would never monitor his calls or his life in any way. I just meant that it would be like a group chat/conference call.

FI and I are totally on the same page on this (and everything else). The problem was how he wanted to address his parents, which I understand is complicated. Like I've said, everyone wants to make their parents happy/have their parents be happy for them, especially for something as big as a wedding, and that's just not happening here. He wasn't communicative about the fact that he wanted to handle the situation more diplomatically (rather than more firmly), and he understands now that was a mistake. The follow-up email he sent was firm, and he knows now that that is the tone he has to take going forward. I would've been open to hearing him out about how to address his parents in the first place (they are his parents, after all), but he didn't bring that up. That was the problem - his unexpected (and sadly, ineffective) approach, not that he didn't agree with me.

I only wanted to be involved on this particular call in the same way I was involved with the in-person meeting. Obviously FILs need to understand that FI and I are the ones making decisions about our life and money and such, so I wanted to keep being a team on that. He can - and does - have conversations with his parents to which I'm not a party. Anything otherwise would be insane and, if that's how you read that, then yes, totally cause for alarm. I assure you, though, not the case here. I'm stressed just thinking about doing that.

ETA: The reason I even decided to go with him in the first place was because of the advice I received here, which was obviously the right call, so thanks for that again, ladies!

Sounds as though it will be better if he starts being firm, he may have waited too long to continue to be diplimatioc, but hopefully in the end he will put his foot down.

FIL Problems - help!

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