Including Other Close Friends

OurWildKingdom · May 2016

Some of us could stand to temper our approach a bit. I know I can be too blunt sometimes, and I know I would welcome more explanations about why something is rude rather than just being told that it is. But I also think it's my responsibility not to extrapolate from, "This idea is rude," to "You're rude." It's a hard thing to do (I'm still learning), but it's rewarding.

OurWildKingdom · May 2016

KahluaKoala said:

katsandtatts said:

I appreciate the advice and am definitely considering it, I just don't like the uncalled for snark. Okay, I f***ed up by thinking it was okay to ask these things. Thank you to those who told relevant stories where they said yes to things like this but didn't actually want to, I will check with my guys because that was not my intention. As @debbeau said, you guys will tell the truth whereas friends won't. But you could tell the truth politely as opposed to calling people rude and implying their ideas are stupid and/or that they think they are better than everyone else on here (and I'm not just talking about this thread, I've seen it happen many times). Anyway, no sense crying over spilled milk and I clearly live in a la-la land.

My intention was never to receive work for free, my DJ could very easily provide the full MC duties as well as ceremony coverage (it's actually included in his package) but we were hoping for personalized touches. However, we would prefer to be a bit more generic in some ways than to have our friends having zero fun. I've been thinking these things over for a few days (even before I made my post) and I'm still undecided. I don't want my friends to feel as though we don't value our friendship by not including them, but I'd rather they feel that way they have them feel obligated to say yes to some job they don't want to do. Another option we have been considering over the past while is asking the one friend to be a groomsman (and then he can say no if he wants, or if he moves out of the province before the wedding and bails we can deal - its not too many changes). For the other two friends (who are very close) we were thinking about asking if they'd make a toast at the beginning of the reception to welcome everyone and then to kick off the rest of the toasts.

I'm clearly a glutton for punishment because I'm going to ask for your collective opinion again!! We want to do what is best for us and our friends, but like you have all said and I have acknowledged, they may not be completely honest with us. Does the potential plan above make more sense? Or would it be better to just not include them at all? If you were these guys, what would you think?

@katsandtatts It kind of is TK way - to assume that everyone's trying to scam people to pay for their wedding, endure a horrendous gap, or force everyone to watch their sham of a marriage (or "PPD" as they call it, ugh). It's just something to kind of get through, because there is a lot of good advice here at the end of the day.

As far as your situation, when I was very young I went to a wedding for a close girlfriend. We had a very tight knit group of 8 girlfriends in college. Friend 1 asked 3 other girls from this group to be her BMs. Another friend is an aspiring professional singer and offered to sing her mass (not catholic, please don't yell at me if I explained that wrong), the remaining 3 of us had the honor of being guests. at first, one of the girls was upset, like, "Doesn't she want us to help with the wedding? I thought we were all getting jobs" - she would have been truly honored to be a guest book attendant or something. We explained to her that no, that would be lame, let's just party! People understand that not everyone is going ot be a BM/GM. Some people might not be upset about getting a "job" but lots will. In this story, 1/3 of the crew would have been "honored" to help, the other 2/3 of us would have been annoyed. I think this is one of those "wedding industry" narratives (jobs are an honor) that can really rub people the wrong way. The point of my story too, is that some people here the narrative and internalize it as guests.

So, I don't think it's your fault, but if I were you I'd say (or have your FI say) "Friend, I'm so happy you're coming to the wedding! Just want to let you know about the MC/guitar thing, if you don't want to do it, you really don't have to. You know you're an important friend to me, and I just wanted to find a way to include you in the wedding, but I've rethought it and realized that it may be more of a burden to you. Just so you know, if you'd rather just enjoy the party, I would completely understand". Something like that.

This is perfect, @KahluaKoala.

redoryx · May 2016

katsandtatts said:

I appreciate the advice and am definitely considering it, I just don't like the uncalled for snark. Okay, I f***ed up by thinking it was okay to ask these things. Thank you to those who told relevant stories where they said yes to things like this but didn't actually want to, I will check with my guys because that was not my intention. As @debbeau said, you guys will tell the truth whereas friends won't. But you could tell the truth politely as opposed to calling people rude and implying their ideas are stupid and/or that they think they are better than everyone else on here (and I'm not just talking about this thread, I've seen it happen many times). Anyway, no sense crying over spilled milk and I clearly live in a la-la land.

My intention was never to receive work for free, my DJ could very easily provide the full MC duties as well as ceremony coverage (it's actually included in his package) but we were hoping for personalized touches. However, we would prefer to be a bit more generic in some ways than to have our friends having zero fun. I've been thinking these things over for a few days (even before I made my post) and I'm still undecided. I don't want my friends to feel as though we don't value our friendship by not including them, but I'd rather they feel that way they have them feel obligated to say yes to some job they don't want to do. Another option we have been considering over the past while is asking the one friend to be a groomsman (and then he can say no if he wants, or if he moves out of the province before the wedding and bails we can deal - its not too many changes). For the other two friends (who are very close) we were thinking about asking if they'd make a toast at the beginning of the reception to welcome everyone and then to kick off the rest of the toasts.

I'm clearly a glutton for punishment because I'm going to ask for your collective opinion again!! We want to do what is best for us and our friends, but like you have all said and I have acknowledged, they may not be completely honest with us. Does the potential plan above make more sense? Or would it be better to just not include them at all? If you were these guys, what would you think?

I've had lots and lots and lots of friends getting married over the years. I've been in exactly one of those weddings. All the rest, I was a guest.

Not once, did I ever question my relationship with the bride and/or groom based on my non-involvement in their wedding. I was just happy they wanted me to be there to witness their marriage ceremony.

levioosa · May 2016

Hands down, I would rather be a guest at a wedding than in a wedding party. If I could never be in another wedding again, it would make me so happy. Don't assume that people will be super hurt if they are not asked to have a part. I never expect to be asked, and I wouldn't have been offended if my friends had not asked me in the past. Being a guest is an honor in itself. I don't need a temporary title to feel like I matter, because the history of our friendship proves that I matter to my friends. But I would be hurt if I was skipped over and then asked to perform a service that is normally paid for. Because that is using me for our friendship. And trust that I have always offered to help with tasks, but I balk when I am TOLD I have to do something. That's not how it works.

If your FI wants to include these friends, they can still be a part of the bachelor party, they can still hang out with him the morning of, they can do readings, etc. Just don't ask them to do things you would normally pay a vendor to do. And honestly, if your FI is very close to these guys, he should just ask them to be in the party. But ultimately that's your FIs decision. Don't stress yourself out by trying to find a place for these guys. If FI wants them in the party, great. If he wants them to do readings, great. If he doesn't want them to do anything, that's okay too. They are his friends, so he gets the ultimate say in the situation.

bohobrideCA · May 2016

I lurked for a long time before I ever posted but I needed the slap in the face bluntness you experience on here or I would have never gained the perspective I have now. Everywhere else on the internet and in the world we are getting it shoved down our throats that this is our special day and there are no rules. This at the expense of our partners and loved ones. I'm absolutely guilty of having special snowflake moments and I don't know if I would have changed my thought process if it was gentle.

Changing the perspective and "dream" you've had your whole life can be a bitter pill to swallow it's ok to go through the stages of grief, which we see a lot of posters doing here. Shock, denial, anger, bargaining, (then if they stick around) depression and acceptance! The wedding industry has made it this way and it's our job to fight against it.

Tyvm · May 2016

But you could tell the truth politely as opposed to calling people rude and implying their ideas are stupid and/or that they think they are better than everyone else on here

The problem with this statement @katsandtatts is that "rude" is applied fairly objectively on TK. The community has a fairly stringent set of etiquette rules they adhere to, and anyone that breaks these rules is quite simply being rude. Of course, they could probably stand to make a distinction between rude actions that have already happened (or are planned to happen), versus hypothetical rude actions...but in general, if you break etiquette, you're going to be considered rude here.

If you don't like that, you should probably find a different wedding community, for your own mental health.

TLDR; Rude is not an insult. It is a matter of fact.
At least here on TK.

artbyallie · May 2016

You shouldn't ask people to give a toast at your wedding. It's inappropriate to ask for a toast because it is something that honors you. Appropriate wedding roles include reader, wedding party attendant, or a role necessary in the ceremony (such as bringing up the communion wine/bread in a Catholic wedding). "Guest" is also an honor, for the record.

katsandtatts · May 2016

@artbyallie that does make sense, I don't technically want to ask them to "toast" us, just say a few words to start of the night... What if they did like a joint welcome speech type thing? Sort of like a non-religious blessing? Everyone keeps mentioning having them do readings but when I think reading I think ceremony for some reason... Are there readings or anything similar that could be done at the reception at some point?

p.s. we're not serving dinner so there will be none of that time for speeches

TrixieJess · May 2016

katsandtatts said:

@artbyallie that does make sense, I don't technically want to ask them to "toast" us, just say a few words to start of the night... What if they did like a joint welcome speech type thing? Sort of like a non-religious blessing? Everyone keeps mentioning having them do readings but when I think reading I think ceremony for some reason... Are there readings or anything similar that could be done at the reception at some point?

p.s. we're not serving dinner so there will be none of that time for speeches

What are you doing for the reception? You don't need anyone to time manage a cake and punch reception, and normally speeches, toasts and introductions aren't given.

What type of reception are you having? All of this worrying may be for nothing.

ETF: Typing before coffee is bad

artbyallie · May 2016

katsandtatts said:

@artbyallie that does make sense, I don't technically want to ask them to "toast" us, just say a few words to start of the night... What if they did like a joint welcome speech type thing? Sort of like a non-religious blessing? Everyone keeps mentioning having them do readings but when I think reading I think ceremony for some reason... Are there readings or anything similar that could be done at the reception at some point?

p.s. we're not serving dinner so there will be none of that time for speeches

If anyone should be doing a welcome at the reception, it should be the hosts of the event, whether that's you or your parents or someone else. They are not the hosts. I've never seen a reading at the reception.

In all honesty, it sounds like you are really reaching for a way to have them do 'something' but not be in the wedding. IMO you either put them in the wedding or just invite them as guests. Please don't try to just make something up for them to do. I realize it is well-intentioned, but it has the potential to be hurtful (and if they are hurt by it they very well might not even tell you so).

lnixon8 · May 2016

You probably have never been to party where someone read aloud or made a speech to kick the night off so don't do this at your reception. Even if you told them "short and sweet and from the heart" many people expect these sort of things to be witty, well rehearsed, long etc. and that's a lot of pressure whether they're okay with public speaking or not.

Ditto pps about hosts..people will be scratching their heads worrying who this guy is.

poodledoodleooo · May 2016

I just want to point out that non-groomsmen can still totally participate in groomsmen fun-stuff. Like the bachelor party, or being invited to the rehearsal dinner, or being present for a few professional photos (if he wants). You can also honor him by purchasing a boutonniere for him to wear (if he’d like). He doesn’t need to stand up and be a groomsmen or have a silly task to still feel honored.

I had three close friends who weren’t in my bridal party. I bought them flowers, invited them to all pre-wedding parties, including the RD, invited them to be in professional photos (though I told them we’d find them later if they couldn’t swing it!), and thanked them for being such wonderful and supportive friends.

charlotte989875 · May 2016

My H has a lot of close friends, they all went to high school together, then stayed in the same dirt for college/work. Many of them lived together at some point. There were three he was closest too, and then three others that he is also really good friends with, I'm friends with their wives, etc. He asked the first three to stand up with him (along with his brother and BIL). These other three were invited as guests, he very well could have asked them to be GM but he just didn't. But we didn't find "something else" for them to do. They came, partied, danced, took pictures with is at the reception and we all had a great time. Not having them in the wedding doesn't make them any less of good and close friends.

And ditto feeling like id rather be a guest than in the wedding. In a one year period I was in three wedding (four if you count my own) and attended three others. Im happy to "just attend as a guest".

katsandtatts · May 2016

Thank you all for the good advice! I'll pass this all on to my fiance and see how he feels (they are his friends, after all).

@TrixieJess we are having what some call a "cocktail style" reception. It's more than cake and punch but its not going to be a full plated dinner either. Essentially we're having an after dinner ceremony followed by a hearty cocktail hour (mini sliders and other filling foods like that). During the reception we will be serving some gourmet food platters, but the focus after the *brief* speeches/ toasts will be to party! Later in the evening we will be serving late night stations and a dessert table with our cake/ cupcakes.

TrixieJess · May 2016

katsandtatts said:

Thank you all for the good advice! I'll pass this all on to my fiance and see how he feels (they are his friends, after all).

@TrixieJess we are having what some call a "cocktail style" reception. It's more than cake and punch but its not going to be a full plated dinner either. Essentially we're having an after dinner ceremony followed by a hearty cocktail hour (mini sliders and other filling foods like that). During the reception we will be serving some gourmet food platters, but the focus after the *brief* speeches/ toasts will be to party! Later in the evening we will be serving late night stations and a dessert table with our cake/ cupcakes.

If you are having a cocktail style reception, don't do any speeches. If someone wants to do a toast, let them. Speeches will break up the night too much and take away from the type of atmosphere you want.

thisismynickname2 · May 2016

I do want to say a bit more about the labor stuff, for the good of general lurkers. I, too, was once asked to play ceremony music. I'm not a professional but played piano for 12 years growing up and now play for fun. I'm way out of practice and nowhere near where I was at 18. But regardless, someone asked me to play their ceremony music. A Beatles song. I happily replied, "Sure!" and felt quite honored the bride thought of me. Then, as it turned out, they didn't have access to a piano at the ceremony site, only a keyboard. I said, "I can't play that sheet music keyboard, and just so you know, keyboards sound like crap. You're better off with a recording or other types of instruments." In the end, I'm so glad I declined, because that bride treated her bridal party like utter crap. And I did worry that I wouldn't be up to standard and somehow ruin things for them.

After this, I got engaged. I wanted to ask my friend, a professional violinist, to play our ceremony. DH said no way, that's rude. I came on TK to ask, and got told no way that's rude. And I did realize it was rude, because I'd essentially ask her to do what she does for a living, for free.

Now, I definitely have seen people be "labor" at weddings, but was aware that they volunteered for the privilege. A boyfriend of mine that was in a band once played a couple's first dance song (the rest of the reception being with a DJ). That same boyfriend traded hours with other groomsmen/band members playing DJ at another wedding. They owned all the sound equipment and knew their tastes in music better than anyone else they could hire. That reception was a blast.

So do friends and family do labor sometimes? Of course. But the key to not being rude is to never ask, only accept offers graciously. And when it comes to toasts/speeches, you'd never realize that some people hate public speaking. I know people that have dreaded being a MOH or best man because they knew part of that job was giving a speech/toast. They all survived though...

katsandtatts · May 2016

@TrixieJess You're right, speeches really isn't the right word, toasts is. Essentially at the beginning of the reception (after cocktail hour) when we are announced in we will have a few toasts from our parents and the MOH and best man want to say something. They have all been told and will continue to be reminded *short and sweet* please!! Then we will do our first dance and then the party will begin!

charlotte989875 · May 2016

On the "labor" point, I hired a friend who is a super talented artist to design our invitations. He was trying to build his client base, we talked ideas and if he had time, and he did a fantastic job. And I paid him like I would a vendor. We had a conversation about how much his time, stationary, etc. would cost before he did any work. Granted, he has "working" the wedding because it was all done before hand but I do think there are some times when it works. I got super fun, custom invites, he got extra work and I passed his name on to a few friends, everyone was happy.

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