Parental Say in College Majors

charlotte989875 · September 2016

julieanne912 said:

charlotte989875 said:

julieanne912 said:

charlotte989875 said:

DrillSergeantCat said:

hellohkb said:

Personally, I think it's strange when parents try to have a say in their child's major or school choice. That borders into weird helicopter parent for me. I can understand having an opinion, but when you're openly trying to sway your child's dreams and wishes, that is strange to me. Either you're going to pay and be supportive, or you're not. I just got my degree Psychology and my sister is going to school for graphic design. People probably think those are useless degrees, but I disagree wholeheartedly. There are MANY jobs I can take with a degree in Psych.

We need all kinds of people in this world, not just doctors, lawyers, and scientists.

In-state tuition is $20,000 a year. Out-of-state tuition is $40,000. If I'm paying for, you better believe I have a say in where I spend my money.

I get that, I just see so many students in my classes, in my office that are doing poorly in their classes or hate what they're doing because their parents are telling them what they should be taking. I had a student who was in the nursing program and hated it; she was upset a lot of the time, she wasn't doing well, and she wanted to become involved in nonprofit work but her parents said they wouldn't pay for that, even when we had a high placement rate for what she wanted to do. They also wouldn't co-sign loans for her to do something different. I felt terrible for her because she was getting a degree in something she didn't want to do all because her parents told her what she could or couldn't major in.

I feel like a situation like this is similar to a wedding. If her parents are paying for it, then they get a say in it. If it's not making her happy and she wants to do something different, then she could always figure out a way to pay for it herself, or finish her degree they WILL pay for, and then figure out a way to get into what she wants to do after.

Except how many 18 year olds have $20,000+ at their disposal? And students can't get financial aid without their parents income information and signature OR being declared financially independent (and showing they get zero money, support, assistance) from their parents.

For or a wedding most couples can decline the money and pay for some type of wedding, but with colleges without a parent signing off a student ant get loans or other ways to fund their education. Yes, they can work for years and save until they have their own income, but at 18 w/o a college degree it's unlikely they'll make any real money to do that.

Im not saying parents shouldn't have a role in the kids education, of course they should. But holding financial aid hostage isn't the way to do it.

I was able to get student loans when I was 18 without my parents cosigning.

Yes, but you still likely needed their income information for the FAFSA. Unless you were no longer claimed as a dependent. Most aid is determined, at least initially by what the school determines to be the "parental contribution" yes parents can declare they are not contributing and the student can take on full responsibility for the loan. However, they still need the parents information and to waive the parental aid. At least this is the case in most US-based institutions.

TheMostHappy15 · September 2016

DrillSergeantCat said:

PrettyGirlLost said:
I don't get this logic at all. You might as well tell him not to major in pre-med, any biological sciences, chemistry, pre-law, etc. as he will also need to go to med school/grad school for a Ph.D/law school afterwards.

Most fields require Master's Degrees or higher now to enter the higher paying ranks.

At least with STEM degrees, your grad school typically pays for you to attend- they waive tuition and pay you a stipend as long as you teach while earning your Ph.D.

And psychology is a good field with lots of different career paths- psychologist, clinical psychologist, counselor, therapist, etc.

The difference there is that most kids know that there is a lot of schooling required to be a doctor or lawyer, but don't realize that a psychologist is also a medical doctor and, therefore, requires more school than just a bachelor's degree. I thought that was pretty clear in my statement.

If he wanted to be a psychologist, I'd help him with that. However, as I said, too many kids enjoy high school psychology and don't know what they want to be when they grow up, so they decide to get a psychology degree and then are at a loss with what to do with it when they're done.

So what you're saying is you didn't "basically say we're absolutely not paying for him to go to school for psychology or liberal arts," as you originally said- you actually were just like "Make sure you realized you need to go to grad school probably if you want to go into that field"?

I'm sorry but the extremity of your original statement just isn't matching up with anything you've said in this conversation since- you also previously said to another poster that the only reason you told him he can't major in that stuff is because you knew he didn't want to anyway... which also makes no sense to me. Why say it then?

DrillSergeantCat · September 2016

TheMostHappy15 said:
So what you're saying is you didn't "basically say we're absolutely not paying for him to go to school for psychology or liberal arts," as you originally said- you actually were just like "Make sure you realized you need to go to grad school probably if you want to go into that field"?

I'm sorry but the extremity of your original statement just isn't matching up with anything you've said in this conversation since- you also previously said to another poster that the only reason you told him he can't major in that stuff is because you knew he didn't want to anyway... which also makes no sense to me. Why say it then?

Because he was vacillating on what he wanted to do and so many of his peers took the route of psychology thinking it was an easy degree while not realizing that a bachelor's is not enough. He'd never once mentioned wanting to be a psychologist but was showing interest in finance or engineering. He was waffling on them because of the math involved. He originally intended to get a degree in environmental engineering, but ultimately chose finance.

eta - plus that's the kind of relationship we have with each other.

TheMostHappy15 · September 2016

DrillSergeantCat said:

TheMostHappy15 said:
So what you're saying is you didn't "basically say we're absolutely not paying for him to go to school for psychology or liberal arts," as you originally said- you actually were just like "Make sure you realized you need to go to grad school probably if you want to go into that field"?

I'm sorry but the extremity of your original statement just isn't matching up with anything you've said in this conversation since- you also previously said to another poster that the only reason you told him he can't major in that stuff is because you knew he didn't want to anyway... which also makes no sense to me. Why say it then?

Because he was vacillating on what he wanted to do and so many of his peers took the route of psychology thinking it was an easy degree while not realizing that a bachelor's is not enough. He'd never once mentioned wanting to be a psychologist but was showing interest in finance or engineering. He was waffling on them because of the math involved. He originally intended to get a degree in environmental engineering, but ultimately chose finance.

eta - plus that's the kind of relationship we have with each other.

But why was it necessary to even bring up psychology or liberal arts if he wasn't remotely considering either one?

Bottom line- I don't understand if you actually told your son you wouldn't pay for him to major in psych/liberal arts or not. You originally said you told him you wouldn't pay if he went that route, then you said you are just wouldn't want him going that route without realizing he'd probably need a graduate degree. Big difference between those two positions.

flantastic · September 2016

I majored in pre-med and theology... because I had interest in both. I told my parents when switching from chemistry, though, that I had no intentions of going to med school. They were on board because I was a motivated student, and we got a balance of significant financial aid, parental contribution, my own outside scholarships, and some student loans that I eventually took on. I was also at the school which is often considered to have the best theology program in the country. (I'm not sure it would have made as much sense to do so without that.) I found a program to get my MA for free with some externship experience and a stipend. Now, 3 years into repayment, I'm 3 months away from having the student loans paid off.

My parents had faith in my motivation and abilities, and honestly knew that they had set me up to have an interest in theology. We all knew I wasn't going to be as rich as some of my less motivated classmates, but I also wouldn't starve. I had to be okay with that. So did they.

Additionally, by keeping an interest as my second major, I have the option for a career change. Med school would be a stretch without major supplemental work (and I still don't want to), but I could easily apply to chem-related stuff like pharmacy school or to an anesthesiology assistant program with my current transcripts. Probably will never happen, but nice to know I could.

I'm just going to talk through the scenarios with the kid when I get there and based on who they are and where they are, and encourage them to keep a toe in the water of other interests. No sense in considering blanket rules for my funding now.

PrettyGirlLost · September 2016

TheMostHappy15 said:

DrillSergeantCat said:

PrettyGirlLost said:
I don't get this logic at all. You might as well tell him not to major in pre-med, any biological sciences, chemistry, pre-law, etc. as he will also need to go to med school/grad school for a Ph.D/law school afterwards.

Most fields require Master's Degrees or higher now to enter the higher paying ranks.

At least with STEM degrees, your grad school typically pays for you to attend- they waive tuition and pay you a stipend as long as you teach while earning your Ph.D.

And psychology is a good field with lots of different career paths- psychologist, clinical psychologist, counselor, therapist, etc.

The difference there is that most kids know that there is a lot of schooling required to be a doctor or lawyer, but don't realize that a psychologist is also a medical doctor and, therefore, requires more school than just a bachelor's degree. I thought that was pretty clear in my statement.

If he wanted to be a psychologist, I'd help him with that. However, as I said, too many kids enjoy high school psychology and don't know what they want to be when they grow up, so they decide to get a psychology degree and then are at a loss with what to do with it when they're done.

No, actually your statement wasnt clear.

And again, *most* fields require graduate degrees now. So regardless of whether your son gets a B.S. in neuroscience or a B.A. he's likely going to need a graduate degree to advance in his chosen career.

To my knowledge a psychologist is *not* a medical doctor. You have to go through a grad program and licensing requirements, but not med school. Psychologists are typically Ph.Ds or Psy.Ds.

Are you confusing psychologists with psychiatrists, perhaps?

ETA: If he sticks with finance, I can bet he's going to want to get/need an MBA or the like at some point.

And many people work in fields that really having nothing to do with their undergrad degrees. I know a person who has a B.A. and Masters degree in teaching and he works for a bank writing code for and maintaining databases, and another person who has a PhD in chemistry and works as a systems engineer.

Jen4948 · September 2016

themosthappy91 said:

I think it's one thing to have concerns, but to put any pressure on your kids by refusing to pay for school if they don't study what you want them to study or being really snarky about their career choices is not a good thing. I'm not suggesting you're doing this -- just that it's not a good thing to do.

It would be one thing to say to a kid, "Johnny, I'm wondering why you want to be a lawyer because you don't like to write reports or make speeches and you have to do a lot of both if you want to become a lawyer" and something else completely to say, "Johnny, the world has enough lawyers. Do something 'realistic' with your life." Because if Johnny is a good writer and public speaker, law might be just the thing for him. And it might be completely "realistic" that he can see himself doing that, regardless of how many lawyers there are out there.

And if if a kid is not used to standing up for themselves with parents who are really overbearing and throwing their financial weight around, then I do think the bolded comes across as a little condescending if they have trouble "owning" whatever decisions they make in college. Because even if they are legal adults, they are probably not emotional full adults (and often not financially independent) and just aren't equipped to make an educated career decision that they can really "own."

Unfortunately, they are being expected to make life-altering decisions with little knowledge and experience of the world and probably no real experience with work in the fields related to their major, and it sticks to them forever because of the way hiring decisions are made now. I think people are entitled to feel disappointed about that, and the fact that they might have regrets doesn't mean that they "dwell on unhappiness" about their parents not being 100% on board with just telling them they should do whatever they wanted to.

I think we're mostly saying the same thing but just have a slightly different place we draw the line between expressing concern and putting pressure. I definitely agree it's not realistic to expect kids starting college to completely own their career choices (the law school example's a bit different in my mind- though 22 is still young you've also been on your own for four years at that point so to me it's more reasonable to expect them to know their own minds and maturely weigh their options). But I honestly think there is a place for saying "That job is not in demand right now so I'd encourage you to explore how your interests might be directed towards a field with better job prospects." That's just being realistic about how the world works. Ultimately the only case I can ever see myself putting real pressure (i.e. withholding money I would have otherwise given the kid for school) is if they were trying to do something that was highly competitive that they clearly didn't have aptitude for, as in my previous theater example- another sad reality of the world is sometimes the things you really like doing just need to be a hobby.

Well, that's one thing.

I think what the article was getting at, and regretting, is that everyone seems to go to college now solely to study and get a degree in something that they can get a job in, but are so focused on job preparation that they don't study anything non "job-related" or see college as anything but "the next step in getting a paying job" rather than as anything more than that.

DrillSergeantCat · September 2016

TheMostHappy15 said:
But why was it necessary to even bring up psychology or liberal arts if he wasn't remotely considering either one?

Bottom line- I don't understand if you actually told your son you wouldn't pay for him to major in psych/liberal arts or not. You originally said you told him you wouldn't pay if he went that route, then you said you are just wouldn't want him going that route without realizing he'd probably need a graduate degree. Big difference between those two positions.

It was part of a conversation we were having. The university I attend is very known for kids who don't know what they want to do so they get a psych degree. He was telling me that it was a joke amongst the seniors in his class and we told him we weren't allowing that.

monkeysip · September 2016

PrettyGirlLost said:

monkeysip said:

As a history and theology major, I always bristle at the idea that humanities should be discouraged, or that they aren't "worth" a degree because the fields tend not to pay much.

First of all, I think you can pursue a lot of higher paying fields starting with a BA in humanities. Different fields are often looking for the kind of writing skills, critical thinking, and overall world view that you can gain from humanities classes.

Second of all, I hate this idea that college is just a financial investment, and your degree is only worth what you can get paid for it later. I think education is worth SO much more than just monetary value. Education used to be viewed as good for the person and for society, not just getting a job. I do use my degrees, but they're also for me. Even if I didn't use them in my career, my college experience made me a better person.

At the same time, I'm NOT saying people should go into 100k debt for a degree that will pay hardly anything. People really do need to be more wise with how much debt they take on, and I agree that a more expensive or out of state school doesn't necessarily mean a better education or degree.

Ironically, most of my student loan debt isn't from tuition. It's because I spent too much on crap in college. I got almost a full ride in college and grad school (except my last year). And some of my expenses were understandable. But I also was a stupid 20 year buying clothes and going out to restaurants.

Yes, and back in the day only the sons of rich whites dudes had the privilege of getting any sort of an education, and they had the luxury to learn esoteric subjects for the sake of learning because what they were learning had no impact on their ability to take over their fathers' businesses and no impact on their inheritance.

Like it or not, today we need to choose our bachelor fields of studies wisely as they are typically the jumping off point for grad school and our careers as a whole.

There's a reason why I was a Biology major and a Studio Art/Art History minor. . . I prefer the arts, but realistically I knew they weren't going to net me the salary I wanted for the lifestyle I wanted. However, my "day job" allows me to pursue the artistic hobbies that I enjoy. Now if I could do it all over again I think I'd pursue engineering instead. . .if only Math and I didn't have a mutually hatred for each other ;-)

There's nothing to stop adults from taking college courses for funsies. Colleges don't care if you're 18 or 45, they just care if you're paying for your credits ;-) There are a ton of courses offered by the local colleges and universities I have considered taking just for shits and giggles.

Right, and that's why there has to be a balance.

Balance what you care about/will make you grow as a person while also not going into insane amounts of debt for a degree you survive off of.

I'm not longing for a time when education was only for the elite. I'm just saying that there IS value in education beyond the financial. I think that's true whether you're rich or a poor first time high school grad. Education is worth a lot more... especially since we live in a democracy, and democracies don't function well without an educated electorate.

I think there's often a tendency to think that the democratization of education has to mean making it more utilitarian. There's even the tendency to say that those who come from poverty or minority neighborhoods would benefit more from trade-style education. On the contrary, I actually think EVERYONE would benefit from a humanities education, assuming they can put that with the skills required for other fields.

Of course, all of my opinions here would require college becoming more affordable for everyone (which I hope can be managed one day).

Viczaesar · September 2016

What exactly are these supposed "esoteric" degrees? And Psychology sure as hell isn't an easy field. Most psych majors that I've met (and I teach at a university, so that's quite a few) don't actually want to be psychologists. Those that do are well aware that they'll need additional education and training.

PrettyGirlLost · September 2016

Viczaesar said:

What exactly are these supposed "esoteric" degrees? And Psychology sure as hell isn't an easy field. Most psych majors that I've met (and I teach at a university, so that's quite a few) don't actually want to be psychologists. Those that do are well aware that they'll need additional education and training.

So then why are they majoring in Psych?

ernursej · September 2016

I think that what you can do with a degree/program of studies, how much you spend obtaining the degree/program of studies and how much you can expect to earn are important points to consider when thinking about post secondary.

I have a friend who is 6 figures in debt and is a freelance artist. It is unlikely that she is going to pay back that debt anytime soon. I'm not saying she shouldn't have done the programs she did, but perhaps looked at how to finance better and what she was going to make post degrees. Nothing wrong with being an artist, but carrying around the debt is going to make saving for retirement difficult.

PrettyGirlLost · September 2016

ernursej said:

I think that what you can do with a degree/program of studies, how much you spend obtaining the degree/program of studies and how much you can expect to earn are important points to consider when thinking about post secondary.
I have a friend who is 6 figures in debt and is a freelance artist. It is unlikely that she is going to pay back that debt anytime soon. I'm not saying she shouldn't have done the programs she did, but perhaps looked at how to finance better and what she was going to make post degrees. Nothing wrong with being an artist, but carrying around the debt is going to make saving for retirement difficult.

Which is why student loan debt is the next "bubble" set to burst, and it will be worse than the 2007 housing crisis.

Students in the US are over 1 trillion in combined debt. . .more than all the US credit card and autother loan debts combined.

DrillSergeantCat · September 2016

PrettyGirlLost said:
Which is why student loan debt is the next "bubble" set to burst, and it will be worse than the 2007 housing crisis.

Students in the US are over 1 trillion in combined debt. . .more than all the US credit card and autother loan debts combined.

And that money isn't going into the classroom. It's going to increased administration. Most of the schools around here don't hire permanent instructors, they're hiring adjuncts so they don't have to give them benefits.

As per your question as to whether I was confusing psychiatrist and psychologist, I'm not, but I did misstate that psychology is a medical degree. I should have said it takes a doctorates.

@Viczaesar I wasn't intending to imply that psychology is "easy," just that many of the seniors my son knows went to college to get a psych degree because they thought it would be.

PrettyGirlLost · September 2016

DrillSergeantCat said:

PrettyGirlLost said:
Which is why student loan debt is the next "bubble" set to burst, and it will be worse than the 2007 housing crisis.

Students in the US are over 1 trillion in combined debt. . .more than all the US credit card and autother loan debts combined.

And that money isn't going into the classroom. It's going to increased administration. Most of the schools around here don't hire permanent instructors, they're hiring adjuncts so they don't have to give them benefits.

As per your question as to whether I was confusing psychiatrist and psychologist, I'm not, but I did misstate that psychology is a medical degree. I should have said it takes a doctorates.

@Viczaesar I wasn't intending to imply that psychology is "easy," just that many of the seniors my son knows went to college to get a psych degree because they thought it would be.

Yep! It's total bullshit!

Professors take the blame with the general public for the rising college tuition prices, but it's not them at all and just as you described.

Funny, isn't it, that the schools with the highest endowments have the highest tuition rates? More bullshit.

Loads of bullshit in Academia. Academia and Corporate America are one and the same, it's just that one likes to pretend it's not the other.

kvruns · September 2016

PrettyGirlLost said:

Loads of bullshit in Academia. Academia and Corporate America are one and the same, it's just that one likes to pretend it's not the other.

QFT

DrillSergeantCat · September 2016

PrettyGirlLost said:
Yep! It's total bullshit!

Professors take the blame with the general public for the rising college tuition prices, but it's not them at all and just as you described.

Funny, isn't it, that the schools with the highest endowments have the highest tuition rates? More bullshit.

Loads of bullshit in Academia. Academia and Corporate America are one and the same, it's just that one likes to pretend it's not the other.

It's really sad to me that we pay our teachers (all of them) so little that they often have to have part time jobs. My university pays the instructors $1500 per class. The classes are 5-8 weeks and the cost to the students is $467 per credit hour with the exception of students getting a ministry degree and then it is $383 per credit hour. The classes have about 10 students each sometimes more.

Yet with all the tuition we pay, they keep cutting things. There's no fall graduation ceremony any longer so if you don't finish your courses in June, you have to wait until the following May before you can walk. They tried cutting my classes and put them online only because there weren't enough of us to warrant onground classes. Only after I threatened to sue them to get my money back did they suddenly find a way to make it happen. Man, I regret going there.

thisismynickname2 · September 2016

PrettyGirlLost said:

DrillSergeantCat said:

PrettyGirlLost said:
Which is why student loan debt is the next "bubble" set to burst, and it will be worse than the 2007 housing crisis.

Students in the US are over 1 trillion in combined debt. . .more than all the US credit card and autother loan debts combined.

And that money isn't going into the classroom. It's going to increased administration. Most of the schools around here don't hire permanent instructors, they're hiring adjuncts so they don't have to give them benefits.

As per your question as to whether I was confusing psychiatrist and psychologist, I'm not, but I did misstate that psychology is a medical degree. I should have said it takes a doctorates.

@Viczaesar I wasn't intending to imply that psychology is "easy," just that many of the seniors my son knows went to college to get a psych degree because they thought it would be.

Yep! It's total bullshit!

Professors take the blame with the general public for the rising college tuition prices, but it's not them at all and just as you described.

Funny, isn't it, that the schools with the highest endowments have the highest tuition rates? More bullshit.

Loads of bullshit in Academia. Academia and Corporate America are one and the same, it's just that one likes to pretend it's not the other.

Totally agree.
Let me pile on with even worse info. You know why there's more administration to pay for? More government regulation. You want that new online program to cross state lines? More state regulations and approvals (though there are brand new reciprocity arrangements, thank God, but that wasn't the case for all the years of online education we've had). You have average graduation rates? Get a retention specialist and new programming because otherwise the state will cut your funding if you don't prove better outcomes. Diversity coordinators, Title IX coordinators, increased Ombudsman offices for student complaints. Auditors for federal credit hour compliance. Increase access for underprivileged and graduate them? Increase your advising staff. Don't forget about HR, wellness programs to keep health care costs in line, etc., etc.

TheMostHappy15 · September 2016

DrillSergeantCat said:

TheMostHappy15 said:
But why was it necessary to even bring up psychology or liberal arts if he wasn't remotely considering either one?

Bottom line- I don't understand if you actually told your son you wouldn't pay for him to major in psych/liberal arts or not. You originally said you told him you wouldn't pay if he went that route, then you said you are just wouldn't want him going that route without realizing he'd probably need a graduate degree. Big difference between those two positions.

It was part of a conversation we were having. The university I attend is very known for kids who don't know what they want to do so they get a psych degree. He was telling me that it was a joke amongst the seniors in his class and we told him we weren't allowing that.

Where does liberal arts come into all of this? Again, I don't understand if you were actually forbidding him from majoring in all liberal arts fields (plus psychology) on your dime or just saying he shouldn't go into something without thinking it through, and I'm genuinely curious because those are two really different stances.

PrettyGirlLost · September 2016

TheMostHappy15 said:

DrillSergeantCat said:

TheMostHappy15 said:
But why was it necessary to even bring up psychology or liberal arts if he wasn't remotely considering either one?

Bottom line- I don't understand if you actually told your son you wouldn't pay for him to major in psych/liberal arts or not. You originally said you told him you wouldn't pay if he went that route, then you said you are just wouldn't want him going that route without realizing he'd probably need a graduate degree. Big difference between those two positions.

It was part of a conversation we were having. The university I attend is very known for kids who don't know what they want to do so they get a psych degree. He was telling me that it was a joke amongst the seniors in his class and we told him we weren't allowing that.

Where does liberal arts come into all of this? Again, I don't understand if you were actually forbidding him from majoring in all liberal arts fields (plus psychology) on your dime or just saying he shouldn't go into something without thinking it through, and I'm genuinely curious because those are two really different stances.

You mention liberal arts, and I just wanted to bring something up that touches on a PP's post about balance in education.

Attending a Liberal Arts school is one way to get that balance. I have a B.S. from a liberal arts college where the subjects were divided into three schools of thought- Natural Science, Social Science, and I think Humanities was the 3rd. We were required to major in one area, minor in another, and take X classes in the 3rd. So if I wanted to be a Neuroscience major with a biochem minor, I needed to double minor in a social science or humanities and then fulfill the credit hour requirements for the 3rd area.

Most kids from my college graduated with double majors or double minors because they started taking courses to fulfill the requirements and just really fell in love with the subject. . . like the Chem major who had never painted a day in his life but wanted to do his senior thesis on art restoration techniques, so he decided to learn how to paint so that he could muck up a piece of art and then restore it, and not only did he tack on studio art as a minor but he became one of the best painters in my class at the time.

DrillSergeantCat · September 2016

TheMostHappy15 said:
Where does liberal arts come into all of this? Again, I don't understand if you were actually forbidding him from majoring in all liberal arts fields (plus psychology) on your dime or just saying he shouldn't go into something without thinking it through, and I'm genuinely curious because those are two really different stances.

That part actually came from his father who said something along the lines of "and you're not getting an English degree like your aunt." We did actually say those words, however, if he told us that he really wanted to do a particular field we would have gone over his plan and end goal to help him make a decision.

I'm actually surprised that he chose finance because his favorite classes in HS were computer programming and game design.

TrixieJess · September 2016

DrillSergeantCat said:

TheMostHappy15 said:
Where does liberal arts come into all of this? Again, I don't understand if you were actually forbidding him from majoring in all liberal arts fields (plus psychology) on your dime or just saying he shouldn't go into something without thinking it through, and I'm genuinely curious because those are two really different stances.

That part actually came from his father who said something along the lines of "and you're not getting an English degree like your aunt." We did actually say those words, however, if he told us that he really wanted to do a particular field we would have gone over his plan and end goal to help him make a decision.

I'm actually surprised that he chose finance because his favorite classes in HS were computer programming and game design.

Ugh, I have a degree in English with a minor in comparative religions. I took a ton of various Humanities and Social Science classes while I was in school. On the side I tutored science students who wanted to go to med school who had to take a certain number of Humanities classes because the Med School at our university took students from all degrees and majors into it's pre-med program so long as you had a 8.5-9 average and passed the interview process. They actually favoured Humanities and Social Science students because they were at ease improvising in bad situations and didn't have to do everything "by the book".

TheMostHappy15 · September 2016

DrillSergeantCat said:

TheMostHappy15 said:
Where does liberal arts come into all of this? Again, I don't understand if you were actually forbidding him from majoring in all liberal arts fields (plus psychology) on your dime or just saying he shouldn't go into something without thinking it through, and I'm genuinely curious because those are two really different stances.

That part actually came from his father who said something along the lines of "and you're not getting an English degree like your aunt." We did actually say those words, however, if he told us that he really wanted to do a particular field we would have gone over his plan and end goal to help him make a decision.

I'm actually surprised that he chose finance because his favorite classes in HS were computer programming and game design.

Ah gotcha. That's kind of how my dad was actually- very blustery about certain subjects (weirdly English and Psychology were the ones, though for different reasons) but I know he would have been fine if I really wanted to go into one of those fields.

@PrettyGirlLost - that's a really interesting approach that your school had! I wonder how that would work for students trying to go into a more specialized field though? I went to a school that had a large and prestigious architecture program, and they barely had time to take any classes out of major because there was just so much they had to cover for their degree to be at all useful by itself (without grad school). Overall though I agree it's great to make sure college students are being exposed to different subject areas.

PrettyGirlLost · September 2016

TheMostHappy15 said:

DrillSergeantCat said:

TheMostHappy15 said:
Where does liberal arts come into all of this? Again, I don't understand if you were actually forbidding him from majoring in all liberal arts fields (plus psychology) on your dime or just saying he shouldn't go into something without thinking it through, and I'm genuinely curious because those are two really different stances.

That part actually came from his father who said something along the lines of "and you're not getting an English degree like your aunt." We did actually say those words, however, if he told us that he really wanted to do a particular field we would have gone over his plan and end goal to help him make a decision.

I'm actually surprised that he chose finance because his favorite classes in HS were computer programming and game design.

Ah gotcha. That's kind of how my dad was actually- very blustery about certain subjects (weirdly English and Psychology were the ones, though for different reasons) but I know he would have been fine if I really wanted to go into one of those fields.

@PrettyGirlLost - that's a really interesting approach that your school had! I wonder how that would work for students trying to go into a more specialized field though? I went to a school that had a large and prestigious architecture program, and they barely had time to take any classes out of major because there was just so much they had to cover for their degree to be at all useful by itself (without grad school). Overall though I agree it's great to make sure college students are being exposed to different subject areas.

I don't recall offhand, but it didn't take a lot of credits to cover your minor, and then only like 2 classes in the third area not covered by your major/minor.

The pre med kids typically tried to knock out all of that stuff in the 1st two years, same with the engineering and computer sci kids.

thisismynickname2 · September 2016

PrettyGirlLost said:

TheMostHappy15 said:

DrillSergeantCat said:

TheMostHappy15 said:
Where does liberal arts come into all of this? Again, I don't understand if you were actually forbidding him from majoring in all liberal arts fields (plus psychology) on your dime or just saying he shouldn't go into something without thinking it through, and I'm genuinely curious because those are two really different stances.

That part actually came from his father who said something along the lines of "and you're not getting an English degree like your aunt." We did actually say those words, however, if he told us that he really wanted to do a particular field we would have gone over his plan and end goal to help him make a decision.

I'm actually surprised that he chose finance because his favorite classes in HS were computer programming and game design.

Ah gotcha. That's kind of how my dad was actually- very blustery about certain subjects (weirdly English and Psychology were the ones, though for different reasons) but I know he would have been fine if I really wanted to go into one of those fields.

@PrettyGirlLost - that's a really interesting approach that your school had! I wonder how that would work for students trying to go into a more specialized field though? I went to a school that had a large and prestigious architecture program, and they barely had time to take any classes out of major because there was just so much they had to cover for their degree to be at all useful by itself (without grad school). Overall though I agree it's great to make sure college students are being exposed to different subject areas.

I don't recall offhand, but it didn't take a lot of credits to cover your minor, and then only like 2 classes in the third area not covered by your major/minor.

The pre med kids typically tried to knock out all of that stuff in the 1st two years, same with the engineering and computer sci kids.

To the point about full majors- there are states that regulate general education. (Maybe they all do and I've only noticed the ones with more credits than usual.) Indiana and Minnesota come to mind. An institution can't grant a degree to a resident of that state without credit hours spread over the social sciences, humanities, communications, math, etc.

I would definitely advise balance. To the art major, minor in business and open a gallery someday. To the music performance major, take education courses so you can also teach. Strengthen a humanities major with more math courses for a future in business. That kind of thing. Even when people are passionate about their major, it's easy to lose track of the value of the mandatory general education. I love the story above about the chem/painter.

scrunchythief · September 2016

PrettyGirlLost said:

Viczaesar said:

What exactly are these supposed "esoteric" degrees? And Psychology sure as hell isn't an easy field. Most psych majors that I've met (and I teach at a university, so that's quite a few) don't actually want to be psychologists. Those that do are well aware that they'll need additional education and training.

So then why are they majoring in Psych?

There's a ton of different fields you can go into with a psych degree. Some people do phone it in and use it to get entry level jobs. But the degree is really what you make it. I maxed out the number of classes I could take almost every semester, and did research. I had a good idea of what I wanted to do with it, and multiple plans in case of burn out(luckily), which is more common than people like to talk about among counselors.

But the field of psychology is much broader than just the clinical. They might want to go into marketing research, or institutional research, or policy advocacy. They might study cognitive psychology and research how the brain functions and contributes to behavior. Also, there's a bunch of Masters level clinical jobs too, so you'd be in counseling, but not a psychologist.

ETA: I think this is why parents picking the major can be a good thing, but often times isn't. I know my parents at least had very little idea what most STEM or psychology career paths looked like. So if the parents are saying go be a doctor because you'll make a lot of money, but don't understand the field, I don't think that'll work out. If they're bringing up real concerns and asking their kid to think critically about what they want from the degree, that's different.

PrettyGirlLost · September 2016

I wish schools would start to tweak some of the requirements for your major. For instance, I had to suffer through college trig and 2 levels of calculus as a requirement for a B.S. in bio. Care to take a guess how often I used any of those concepts in my bio classes at the time or in the 12+ years I've been working as a molecular biologist?

ZERO!!!! On a good day I *might* use some basic algebra or ratios.

Those 3 classes were a waste of time, aggravation, and brain cells. Instead of using them as a weeding out course for all the pre-med and bio majors, how about allow us the time and freedom in our schedules to take something else related to our major that's of interest to us, or something outside our major that interests us!

And no, those classes didn't foster any sort of critical thinking or problem solving skills I wasn't already developing in my other science courses. All they did was drive me to drink and provide a current source of nightmares.

short+sassy · September 2016

PrettyGirlLost said:

TheMostHappy15 said:

DrillSergeantCat said:

TheMostHappy15 said:
But why was it necessary to even bring up psychology or liberal arts if he wasn't remotely considering either one?

Bottom line- I don't understand if you actually told your son you wouldn't pay for him to major in psych/liberal arts or not. You originally said you told him you wouldn't pay if he went that route, then you said you are just wouldn't want him going that route without realizing he'd probably need a graduate degree. Big difference between those two positions.

It was part of a conversation we were having. The university I attend is very known for kids who don't know what they want to do so they get a psych degree. He was telling me that it was a joke amongst the seniors in his class and we told him we weren't allowing that.

Where does liberal arts come into all of this? Again, I don't understand if you were actually forbidding him from majoring in all liberal arts fields (plus psychology) on your dime or just saying he shouldn't go into something without thinking it through, and I'm genuinely curious because those are two really different stances.

You mention liberal arts, and I just wanted to bring something up that touches on a PP's post about balance in education.

Attending a Liberal Arts school is one way to get that balance. I have a B.S. from a liberal arts college where the subjects were divided into three schools of thought- Natural Science, Social Science, and I think Humanities was the 3rd. We were required to major in one area, minor in another, and take X classes in the 3rd. So if I wanted to be a Neuroscience major with a biochem minor, I needed to double minor in a social science or humanities and then fulfill the credit hour requirements for the 3rd area.

Most kids from my college graduated with double majors or double minors because they started taking courses to fulfill the requirements and just really fell in love with the subject. . . like the Chem major who had never painted a day in his life but wanted to do his senior thesis on art restoration techniques, so he decided to learn how to paint so that he could muck up a piece of art and then restore it, and not only did he tack on studio art as a minor but he became one of the best painters in my class at the time.

The college I graduated from was a very new (at the time) school in the CSU (California State U.) system. They had a 2500 word writing requirement for every class. While that isn't much writing required for many classes, it can be for math and sciences. I thought it was great they recognized that, no matter a person's field, being able to communicate effectively through writing is always an important skill.

They also required all students to take a basic computer course or test out of it. I know that sounds crazy but, at the time, personal desktop computers had only been commonly seen for about 5-10 years.

They also required all students to take at least one course that fell in the "World Studies" category. Language, most history, anthropology, etc. classes counted for that.

More on the post's subject. I vetoed myself from pursuing the course of study I found most interesting...archaeology. That was what I wanted to do from a very young age. But starting around jr. high, the realities of the world started sinking in. I'd basically need to go all the way to a PhD...just to spend my life begging for grants and, if I was super lucky, get a professorship. Instead, I majored in business (seemed really practical) and minored in sociology.

Crazy enough, that sociology minor got me an interview to become a drug/alcohol abuse counselor shortly after I graduated. I was really tempted to take the job, I think I would have really liked it, but the low pay and commute just couldn't tempt me enough. So I took a substantially more boring job instead, lol.

PrettyGirlLost · September 2016

scrunchythief said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

Viczaesar said:

What exactly are these supposed "esoteric" degrees? And Psychology sure as hell isn't an easy field. Most psych majors that I've met (and I teach at a university, so that's quite a few) don't actually want to be psychologists. Those that do are well aware that they'll need additional education and training.

So then why are they majoring in Psych?

There's a ton of different fields you can go into with a psych degree. Some people do phone it in and use it to get entry level jobs. But the degree is really what you make it. I maxed out the number of classes I could take almost every semester, and did research. I had a good idea of what I wanted to do with it, and multiple plans in case of burn out(luckily), which is more common than people like to talk about among counselors.

But the field of psychology is much broader than just the clinical. They might want to go into marketing research, or institutional research, or policy advocacy. They might study cognitive psychology and research how the brain functions and contributes to behavior. Also, there's a bunch of Masters level clinical jobs too, so you'd be in counseling, but not a psychologist.

ETA: I think this is why parents picking the major can be a good thing, but often times isn't. I know my parents at least had very little idea what most STEM or psychology career paths looked like. So if the parents are saying go be a doctor because you'll make a lot of money, but don't understand the field, I don't think that'll work out. If they're bringing up real concerns and asking their kid to think critically about what they want from the degree, that's different.

I know, I was curious as to what other applications they might have told Vic they wanted to pursue, such as some that you mentioned.

Ironically, when I was younger I decided that people were dysfunctional and BSC, which was exhausting and maddening to me at the time (hello family and classmates) so I wanted to work in a lab with limited human contact in order to maintain my sanity. However, if I were to switch careers, which I consider on and off regularly, I'd switch to psychology because I find the dysfunction and BSCery to be fascinating now. I took a bunch of psych courses to fill out my social science requirement and I loved them.

ETA: There's no more maddening group of ppl to work with than PhDs, MDs, and the rare and cantankerous MD/PhD ><

TheMostHappy15 · September 2016

Relating to the subject of colleges setting different requirements for majoring and minoring- I heard of a school, I forget which one but it was like a large state school, where if you major in math they require you to minor in education, the point being to encourage people to become math teachers because pretty much everywhere is really, really short of math teachers. Anyone else ever heard of an arrangement like this? I'm torn because I think it's a creative approach to addressing the math teacher shortage, but I also would be very annoyed if I wanted to major in math and knew there was no chance I was going to go into teaching.

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