Open, but not 'out'.

mrsconn23 · January 2018

Dear Prudence,
My husband and I have had an open marriage for five years now. I occasionally date others and currently have a boyfriend, while my husband has yet to take advantage of the opportunity. I don’t mind people knowing that we are nonmonogamous, but I don’t feel the need to make an announcement. My husband is more private than I am and would prefer to keep it to ourselves. When it comes to his family, he is adamant that we not tell them.

My question concerns how to handle the inevitable: Someone we know sees me out holding hands with my boyfriend (or worse—kissing). My fear is that they will see me as a homewrecker and judge me. They may feel that they have witnessed something they shouldn’t have and feel embarrassed. If I know they’ve seen me, I can address it directly. But what if someone sees me without me noticing? How can I avoid making people feel uncomfortable and potentially ruining a relationship with a friend/acquaintance/co-worker without making a big “coming out” announcement?
—Nonmonogamous Anxiety

CharmedPam · January 2018

Honestly when I hear of someone cheating and it's one sided I always think to myself "what if they WERE in an open relationship? I don't know! I can't judge!" So I have that notion in the back of my mind, but not many do.

I don't know how an open marriage can work, but that's not the point of the letter. If it bugs LW enough, then go monogamous. otherwise live your life and don't worry about it.

STARMOON44 · January 2018

I think you can’t. That’s a risk you are taking.

charlotte989875 · January 2018

I think this is one of the side effects of your relationship choice; you want to be open in public without being publicly open and unfortunately I don't think the real world works that way.

If you don't want to run this risk be more discreet when you're out with your boyfriend. Or be prepared for people to see and talk and all the fall out that can ensure.

banana468 · January 2018

charlotte989875 said:

I think this is one of the side effects of your relationship choice; you want to be open in public without being publicly open and unfortunately I don't think the real world works that way.

If you don't want to run this risk be more discreet when you're out with your boyfriend. Or be prepared for people to see and talk and all the fall out that can ensure.

This.

I also question how open the marriage is. Her husband wants to keep this quiet and hasn't been active on his side. I can't help but wonder if the LW wanted an open marriage, LW's husband doesn't want it but LW agreed to this as a means of keeping the marriage.

A lot of this smells off.

That said, if you don't want to be judged in public then don't do this in public. I hate to phrase it that way but I can't come up with a way to act in a non platonic way in public in front of friends and family who have no idea while also having them understand that this is acceptable within the terms of your marriage.

short+sassy · January 2018

I'm going to take the letter one step further for my "curiosity question".

So, let's say H's parent sees the LW and her b/f canoodling in public. LW does not notice/realize this happened.

IL goes to H, all upset, to tell him what was seen. What would the H do? He doesn't want his family to know it is an open relationship. But then, I'd hope he doesn't throw his wife under the bus either and "pretend" it was cheating.

I think the best solution is for the LW to keep a lower profile, when out with the b/f. Or stop worrying about what can't be controlled. She is being true to herself. Her H is on board with it, so she isn't doing anything wrong. That's the important part.

baconsmom · January 2018

Ooh, this is us! We're open/poly (we're not hung up on a particular style; usually referred to as "relationship anarchy", which we like), but in general, not super "out". Of course, we also don't really know anyone, so it's not a big deal for us, but.

LW has to accept that this might happen, and people will make their own judgments, just like everyone in this thread. (It doesn't sound "off" to me at all that husband hasn't played; some people are shyer than others, and it's notoriously difficult for men in open relationships to date. No one believes it's open.)

We're not out to our families, mostly because they live far away and it doesn't matter. If it ever came up - if they asked, or someone saw something, blah blah - we wouldn't lie. We decided we'd just be honest at that point and spill the beans. H's mom wouldn't care, though some of his other relatives would; my parents would probably have aneurysms and die, and that...is not the most terrible outcome, actually. It would save me having to deal with them at all, ever again, and that's not awful, either. (Our relationship is...complicated.)

I mean, I have very few fucks to give, so I honestly don't give a crap about being seen in public with my boyfriend. I'm out in general now that I'm not working for the church anymore, and I would hope that some acquaintance would mind their business or come say hello, so I could introduce them.

And if anybody has any questions, I'm happy to answer, here or in PMs.

knottie6fe2cc5434160aa2 · January 2018

Can't wait for people to stop using "out" in the context of straight poly people! Not a concept that belongs to you.

kwiksilver · January 2018

knottie6fe2cc5434160aa2 said:

Can't wait for people to stop using "out" in the context of straight poly people! Not a concept that belongs to you.

Concepts don't really "belong" to anyone. There are so many shades of different in terms of sexuality and relationships that I don't think any one particular group owns being "out"

baconsmom · January 2018

Ok, but, like - how else would you like us to term it? "Out" is an easy, quick term that everyone understands. My gay friends have asked me if I'm out about being poly. Should I tell them to stop using that term, because it only applies to them?

Do ace and questioning and bi people get to be out, in your world? Like, is it *just* gays, or what?

VarunaTT · January 2018

There's actually a really big....let's try and call it a conversation about "out" in terms of polyam and the BDSM communites. B/c those doesn't qualify as a sexual orientation or gender identification, but they are marginalized populations that have cross overs with the LGBTQ+ population (and some of the full acronym usage will include them).

*I* personally don't care about polyam/BDSM inclusion as long as there is absolute 100% acceptance of the entire queer spectrum. B/c I know transphobic polyam people and HELL NO, you don't get in to have access queer spaces. It's an all or nothing proposition and I've called out many cis-queer people out on it as well.

ETA: Polyamorous is different than polysexual.

MissKittyDanger · January 2018

I'm not gonna lie, if I saw my friend with someone that wasn't their known spouse I would probably jump to assumptions but I would talk to my friend about it.

If they say "hey we're in an open relationship/marriage" then cool, that's your thing.

{random fact; I saw a friend on the bus and she was with someone that wasn't her spouse and found out she was cheating on him. I didn't tell him, but I talked to her}

banana468 · January 2018

@VarunaTT can you help explain the difference between polyamorous and polysexual?

VarunaTT · January 2018

Polyamorous means that you seek out (through various philosophies of polyamory) multiple romantic (and sometimes sexual though not always) partners. You can be hetero-, homo-, bi-, pan, etc. and polyamorous.

Polysexual is a sexual identity, that belongs under the non-monosexual identities umbrella (basically sexualities that are attracted to multiple genders, not just opposite gender or same gender people).

MissKittyDanger · January 2018

VarunaTT said:

Polysexual is a sexual identity, that belongs under the non-monosexual identities umbrella (basically sexualities that are attracted to multiple genders, not just opposite gender or same gender people).

What is the difference between this and bisexuality?

VarunaTT · January 2018

So...(just kidding, but this is kinda on of my passionate advocacy areas).

There really isn't a difference between most of the non-monosexual identities beyond personal preference/history. There's a few things behind it.

Bisexuals have defined themselves through their advocate community, since the 70s, as attracted to more than one gender. Because our society has been so gender binary specific, more than one gender somehow was defaulted to "men and women". Then the rise of transgender advocacy/visibility started to rise. Unfortunately, because in the bisexual world, there are transphobic individuals, lots of people inside and outside of the bisexual community decided that that default was actually "cis-gender men and cis-gender women." Which is patently false. Bisexuals have historically dated whoever the hell they wanted, regardless of their genitalia, inclusive of all gender identities (there is another issue lurking here of preference vs. transphobia that is the source of endless writing that I won't get into here).

Additionally, people try to argue that the "bi" in bisexual implies the gender binary. NOPE. If you are gay, your gender identity and your partners gender identity matches (male to male, female to female), but you are 2 people. If you are straight, your gender identity and your partner's gender identity are opposite (male to female), but you are 2 people. As a bisexual, my gender identity is mine and my partner's gender identity isn't defined by a damn thing, which makes the "bi"...but there are 2 gender identities involved, it is not predefined by my gender (cis-gender female and...who ever I decide to be attracted to). Robyn Ochs is considered kind of the pre-eminent definition holder with, "I call myself bisexual because I acknowledge that I have in myself the potential to be attracted – romantically and/or sexually – to people of more than one sex and/or gender, not necessarily at the same time, not necessarily in the same way, and not necessarily to the same degree.”

Polysexual rose b/c the idea that bisexual was limited to cis-gender people, so polysexual was "more than cis-gender, but maybe not all gender identities", while pansexual arose to actually encompass any and all gender identities.

I identify as bisexual, simply b/c I was in college in the 90s. Our college GALA (gay and lesbian alliance association) rejected bisexual. I was told, by other queers, I need to pick a side, or I was just too scared to be full gay or this was a phase or it wasn't unnatural. Another group was started, to welcome bisexuals into the queer fold. I fought too hard for my label to let it go. I have no issue with any of the others (with some caveats that I won't go into here). Honestly, as one pansexual put it, "Really, it just comes down to which community Pride flags colors do you like better."

Whew.

VarunaTT · January 2018

Oh man, my joke didn't work (That's Korra from the Avatar who is canon bisexual and she's supposed to be cracking her knuckles).

MissKittyDanger · January 2018

@VarunaTT So let me see if I understand this {if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me because I've recently started learning about all the different types of identity}

Bi - male or female {historically has been not for trans}
Poly - male or female {trans included}

VarunaTT · January 2018

Really, it's this:

bi/poly/pan is a sexual identity -- people who are attracted to other people falling into multiple gender identities.

Historically, bi was mis-defined by non-bisexuals as limited to cis-gender men and women, so poly and pan developed to "be used instead of bi", bisexuals stuck up for themselves, all 3 are now accepted to mean, "a person who is romantically and/or sexually attracted to any gender identity" (preferences and transphobia not withstanding).

This might serve to confuse you more. This was put out by one of our college gender identity groups. I cannot define them all for you, TBH, some of them are outside of my understanding. I just accept what people want to call themselves:

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/5020756/uploads/editor/am/ow790l60r0o2.jpg

ETA: for some clarifying words, I hope.

MissKittyDanger · January 2018

@VarunaTT I haven't encountered any person who identifies as poly or pan yet, but just in case I did, then I didn't want to assume one thing and be super offensive!
Those charts are really good reference

VarunaTT · January 2018

I haven't ever found such a good chart for sexual identities, that I haven't looked at and thought, Nope, nope, aaannnnd nope!

But when one of the colleges linked to this one for gender identity, I saved it, but I already can see some missing since it's about a year old.

Humans are magnificently complicated.

MissKittyDanger · January 2018

VarunaTT said:

Humans are magnificently complicated.

Without identity changes they're already complicated lmao

banana468 · January 2018

Thank you for this!

CMGragain · January 2018

It amazes me that each generation thinks they have discovered something new about sex. The Edwardians called it "modern marriage". In the 60s, it was called "swinging". Then "open marriage" in the 70s. Now polyamorous? Yawn.

VarunaTT · January 2018

CMGragain said:

It amazes me that each generation thinks they have discovered something new about sex. The Edwardians called it "modern marriage". In the 60s, it was called "swinging". Then "open marriage" in the 70s. Now polyamorous? Yawn.

I will never cease to be amazed at how rude you can be for those things YOU consider unimportant, CMGragain. No one cares if it matters to you or not. But the people trying to live it, care about it very, very much and would appreciate some damn respect.

charlotte989875 · January 2018

CMGragain said:

It amazes me that each generation thinks they have discovered something new about sex. The Edwardians called it "modern marriage". In the 60s, it was called "swinging". Then "open marriage" in the 70s. Now polyamorous? Yawn.

T Did you not read anything Varuna wrote about identities and preferences, and the struggle to be recognized? This is not this generation thinking they’re doing something new, this is people being accepted and recognized for who they are.

And the second bolded is pretty rude.

levioosa · January 2018

CMGragain said:

It amazes me that each generation thinks they have discovered something new about sex. The Edwardians called it "modern marriage". In the 60s, it was called "swinging". Then "open marriage" in the 70s. Now polyamorous? Yawn.

This is so incredibly rude and dismissive. Varuna spent time explaining her struggle and identity, and your response is “*yawn.*” Seriously?

banana468 · January 2018

Are you kidding me? There are big differences. Stop pretending like they aren't.

baconsmom · January 2018

@VarunaTT, I should have thrown up the bat signal for you. Thank you! I was wondering what you would have to say, and I knew you'd be so much more eloquent and knowledgeable than I could be.

(On a personal note, I don't feel like I have a dog in the "out" fight, because honestly, I'm a cishet white girl, and this is not my fight. It's not for me to say anything about it, really, and no, you'll probably never see me posting on Coming Out Day or anything. I'm content to just go with whatever.)

VarunaTT · January 2018

To be fair, CMG wasn't talking about me personally, she was talking about polyam. I just find it rude to be dismissive of anyone's labels.

banana468 · January 2018

My understanding is that with polyamory, you may be engaging in multiple relationships.

That is NOT the same thing as swinging.

Open, but not 'out'.

Re: Open, but not 'out'.

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