How do I deal with Future Mother in Law (FMIL)

[Deleted User] · June 2018

Help! I need some suggestions on how to deal with this situation.

For some background, FH and I have been together for about 9 years now. It's been wonderful! His mom is actually one of the nicest, kindest, and wonderful people in my life, which is why this situation has caused such anxiety for me. The whole time FH and I dated she was nothing but kind and generous. When we got engaged and set a date, things started to change.

First, she came with us to the venue we wanted and took a tour - we all loved it! That was just about the only thing we've agreed on so far.

She would always be asking me questions about the wedding and I have been doing my best to dodge them, as I realize we have completely different visions on how this day will go - overall I'm not sure she realizes her place in all of this. Her children are quite literally the center of her world and she would do anything for them, but I am not sure she realizes that there is a whole other family involved and that decisions are being made between her son and....the bride?

Anyway, so first she would ask me questions about what I was thinking about the color palate - I told her burgundy, blush, golds, lots of greenery (it's a fall wedding). She didn't really say anything but it was clear she wasn't a fan. Not a big deal in this case. Then I would mention things like the fact that I don't want to bother with favors because people don't usually take them and she goes on about how she can do them, which I took as her wanting to help so I let that one go too. Then she had a problem with the number of people in the wedding party (6 on each side) and seemed personally offended by that decision, and that it was way too many. I can cut her daughter out if she wants?? And then she had a problem with one of the girls I wanted to have in it, etc. She also kept suggesting this VERY expensive dessert option that just isn't in the budget (she is paying for the rehearsal dinner - we are paying for the wedding with some help from my parents) - though later on she did mention that it's expensive. Again, all minor things that I'm not going to lose sleep over.

But here's the one thing I can't let go. She is deeply deeply Catholic. I think it's wonderful that she has a faith and a community that she loves so much and it makes her happy. I would never in a million years try to tell someone how they should live their lives or what they should believe or how they should marry their partner. But I don't feel like that respect of one's beliefs is being reciprocated. We broke the news to her that we won't be getting married in the Catholic church and she was upset but took it better than I thought. But then she made it clear that it was unacceptable to be married by a JP, even a practicing Catholic, and that it wasn't okay to just have "religious undertones" as was/is our intention, and that it would be disrespectful to god.

My question is, how do I establish a boundary, and *very gently and kindly let her know what her place is in all of this? How do I explain that I'm not sure of where I stand on my faith and that I wish for that to be respected, as I respect her practices and beliefs to be her own? If I don't establish a clear boundary now then I will have trouble with this for probably many years. Thank you!

Jen4948 · June 2018

Maybe she has a case of either "You're stealing my baby!!!!!!!!!!" or an "As the MOG it's all about me and me alone." Either way, talking to her about your plans is yielding nothing but judgmental micromanagement, so I would stop talking to her about the plans. If she brings up anything wedding-related and you don't agree with her opinion, just say "Thanks, we've got it covered" and change the subject. Don't engage her.

If you've accepted any money or "assistance" from her, then I would return the funds, because she gets a say over anything she pays for.

If that doesn't put a stop to her negative judgments, ask your FI to tell her, "While we appreciate your wish to be helpful to us, your constant criticism is not helpful. We have things under control and are no longer open to discussing the wedding with you."

downtondiva · June 2018

Nobody gets to tell you whether to have a religious ceremony or not; only the couple getting married can or should decide that. While I agree that some boundaries need to be set here regarding your wedding - especially on the issue of the ceremony-your FI should be the one to have that discussion with his mother, not you. He needs to let her know that this is a personal decision that she cannot involve herself in and that you guys will not be changing your minds about it.

lovesclimbing · June 2018

What is your FH saying to her about all this?

levioosa · June 2018

knottieda10bcd9733d97aa said:

Help! I need some suggestions on how to deal with this situation.

For some background, FH and I have been together for about 9 years now. It's been wonderful! His mom is actually one of the nicest, kindest, and wonderful people in my life, which is why this situation has caused such anxiety for me. The whole time FH and I dated she was nothing but kind and generous. When we got engaged and set a date, things started to change.

First, she came with us to the venue we wanted and took a tour - we all loved it! That was just about the only thing we've agreed on so far.

She would always be asking me questions about the wedding and I have been doing my best to dodge them, as I realize we have completely different visions on how this day will go - overall I'm not sure she realizes her place in all of this. Her children are quite literally the center of her world and she would do anything for them, but I am not sure she realizes that there is a whole other family involved and that decisions are being made between her son and....the bride?

Anyway, so first she would ask me questions about what I was thinking about the color palate - I told her burgundy, blush, golds, lots of greenery (it's a fall wedding). She didn't really say anything but it was clear she wasn't a fan. Not a big deal in this case. Then I would mention things like the fact that I don't want to bother with favors because people don't usually take them and she goes on about how she can do them, which I took as her wanting to help so I let that one go too. Then she had a problem with the number of people in the wedding party (6 on each side) and seemed personally offended by that decision, and that it was way too many. I can cut her daughter out if she wants?? And then she had a problem with one of the girls I wanted to have in it, etc. She also kept suggesting this VERY expensive dessert option that just isn't in the budget (she is paying for the rehearsal dinner - we are paying for the wedding with some help from my parents) - though later on she did mention that it's expensive. Again, all minor things that I'm not going to lose sleep over.

But here's the one thing I can't let go. She is deeply deeply Catholic. I think it's wonderful that she has a faith and a community that she loves so much and it makes her happy. I would never in a million years try to tell someone how they should live their lives or what they should believe or how they should marry their partner. But I don't feel like that respect of one's beliefs is being reciprocated. We broke the news to her that we won't be getting married in the Catholic church and she was upset but took it better than I thought. But then she made it clear that it was unacceptable to be married by a JP, even a practicing Catholic, and that it wasn't okay to just have "religious undertones" as was/is our intention, and that it would be disrespectful to god.

My question is, how do I establish a boundary, and *very gently and kindly let her know what her place is in all of this? How do I explain that I'm not sure of where I stand on my faith and that I wish for that to be respected, as I respect her practices and beliefs to be her own? If I don't establish a clear boundary now then I will have trouble with this for probably many years. Thank you!

MesmrEwe · June 2018

So here's the thing that may be getting missed, it's not about you and your expectation of her endorsement to your non-Catholic ceremony. She is concerned about your marriage being recognized sacramentally in the eyes of the church and is correct that "religious undertones" from a Catholic JOP won't cover it in the eyes of the church which is the part that you were trying to push that fell flat.

Your FI has some things to consider since he's presumably Catholic and typically it's recommended here that there be a meeting with the parish priest especially if he's still (sometimes) active in the church to discuss some of these things that he needs to consider on a more neutral ground (Priests tend to take the chaplain role far better than "Church Lady" FMILs do on these matters!). Things like should you consider having your marriage sacramentally recognized steps/procedures vs. line in the sand, religious anything is not happening. Also, if you're not willing to even consider a Catholic service (which does not need to be a full mass), some of the ramifications to his practice of the faith (there are some considerations in the process in marrying someone who is not Catholic to be aware of which is best discussed coming from the priest because this does get technical in a hurry). That type of meeting will also go a long way towards putting your FMIL's mind at ease to the degree possible and may be the olive branch to neutralize a lot of the challenges because this will be the Elephant in the room.

As for the rest of the details/boundaries, there's a breakdown in the communication already happening. For example, the colors, have a picture ready to pull up of your ideas for example of all the colors going together. Also the size of the WP may be worrying her that the RD is going to be more expensive than she originally thought/budgeted as 12 plus SO's (and potentially their young kids) is a lot of people really quick, plus siblings, grandparents, parents, readers, and you're at 50+ guests which is a lot different than the 20 she may have been thinking originally. The point being the objection you're perceiving FMIL making may not be the objection that you think it is. You have to remember a few things 1) "Blood talks to blood", 2) The lines of communication work both ways, choose your "Hills to die on" wisely, there's bridges to burn and bridges to get over. 3) Learn your Bean Dip Recipe that works effectively, OTOH, also recognize you've got a FMIL who is willingly wanting to be involved in the planning aspects of your & FI's day, it's o.k. to delegate some details to her to handle for you and let go of, it'll probably be less stress in the long-term!

ahoywedding · June 2018

How does your FI feel about this? I assume he was raised in the Catholic church; does he still practice? If he feels at all like he may want to have his marriage endorsed by the church, you may need to make some concessions there. Some more traditional Catholic parishes won't even recognize a marriage that doesn't take place in a church, and there are specific items that need to be included in the ceremony. I would suggest having this conversation ASAP with your FI, if you haven't already. It is kind of a big deal for Catholics, and depending on how religious he has been, it may be a difficult decision for him to make.

If you have talked to him and he intends to never return to the church, then you are free to have the ceremony the two of you choose. In that case, it would be a conversation he should have with his own mother.

The rest of it could be that she wants to be involved in the planning. If there are pieces of your wedding you're not super hung up on getting exactly right (table decorations? favors, since she's already expressed interest?), you could delegate some of those tasks to her. My MIL wanted to be involved in our planning, and had kind of a weird way of doing that as well. Like...she gave her opinion on things but in a very hesitant way. I asked her to do a few things & involved her in tasks like putting the favors together. We also gave my ILs total control over the RD; I just gave her the names to include, helped with the seating for my family & H and I went to a tasting with them. Even if you've had a good relationship with her so far (yay!!), wedding planning is kind of acknowledging that relationships are going to change, and even if you've been dating forever, marriage is different. It sounds like she's trying to figure out how she will fit in the life you & your FI are creating together and would like to make sure she's included. She may not even recognize that she's doing it or that she feels that way. If you're able, I spent some time with both my mom & MIL together leading up to the wedding which I think helped as well.

banana468 · June 2018

I think your FI should sit with her without you and try to feel her out:
-Regarding the WP he should ask why it's too large. Does she have in her head the notion that the WP reflects the size of the wedding itself? My mom thought that and DH and I essentially had to tell her that she was misinformed. Or is the real issue as @MesmrEwe pointed out that a large WP means that when you add up SOs plus immediate family that's a really big RD? And while you get to pick your WP that may come as a surprise to MIL. Your FI should ask her why she feels that way. Maybe those feelings come from an issue of budget or maybe she just thinks that large WPs are over the top. Is this something that she can't let go or is she fine with it?

-Regarding the color palette, is this an issue because she doesn't like colors or does she feel that SHE needs to coordinate with the color scheme? If it's the latter I would simply reassure her that she doesn't need to wear any thing or any color that doesn't make her feel 100% fantastic. A friend's mom mentioned years ago that she felt compelled to wear the wedding colors and it made her anxious as they just weren't flattering on her. Ultimately she found a complimentary color that worked for her but again, when you're the MOG it can be a bit of a struggle to focus on your attire too. If she just doesn't like the colors they're colors - she'll let them go.

-On the Catholic ceremony thing is the issue that you're having a JP or is the issue that you're having religious undertones in that ceremony? Did you already find a Catholic JP? I'm thinking that's going to be difficult to find a practicing Catholic who will marry you outside of the church and honestly I can understand that. Yes, the ceremony is yours but please also understand that if your FMIL is deeply rooted in her beliefs then she's seeing that the ceremony that isn't religious but has some religious elements is disingenuous. If you're not being married by the clergy then by incorporating elements of faith without an ordained minister I can sort of see her viewpoint. It becomes a bit more theatrical especially if the ceremony isn't sanctioned by any faith in any way.

And those are your choices - but please understand that by not marrying in the church, your FI and then H will no longer be in good standing in that faith. Is that something that he has already considered? This will mean that he's not to receive communion, serve as a God parent or a sponsor for Baptism. He won't be a Catholic in good standing. Those may not be issues for him but they should be things that he understands.

Would a compromise be to simply use a JP and have a strictly secular ceremony?

I think the best course is for your FI to sit with his mom privately to really get to the bottom of these frustrations and then he can talk to you about the concerns presented. Try to hear her out. If you two have had years of a great relationship then maybe she also has some understanding of concepts that are worth your consideration.

STARMOON44 · June 2018

I think the boundaries to draw are really all about you and your FI. You’ve decided what you are doing together, yes? So you don’t need to convince her it’s okay (it is) or that she’s wrong to be behaving like this (she is). Both of you just need to convey the message that this isn’t open for discussion and then don’t discuss it.

mrsconn23 · June 2018

STARMOON44 said:

I think the boundaries to draw are really all about you and your FI. You’ve decided what you are doing together, yes? So you don’t need to convince her it’s okay (it is) or that she’s wrong to be behaving like this (she is). Both of you just need to convey the message that this isn’t open for discussion and then don’t discuss it.

This.

I concur with Banana that if she's a devout Catholic, trying to 'compromise' with the JP or using 'elements' of the faith in your ceremony may be more offensive than making it completely secular. Catholics are very clear that sacraments happen in the church, full stop.

However, I don't think she gets a say on the rest of the wedding because she's paying for the RD. Conceding to her ideas for the RD are probably in your best interest. But anything having to do with the wedding day, if she's going to criticize or get you to make changes, I'd stop discussing it with her.

I believe your FI needs to be the one communicating with her about all of this. Also, I caution on the 'put her in her place' mindset. It IS your FI's mother and her feelings will always have weight in some way. Finding compromise between you and your FI on how you deal with parents, especially when their feelings or desires go against your own, is important in marriage.

short+sassy · June 2018

I can understand why she is upset you all aren't being married in a Catholic Church, for all the reasons PPs mentioned. Because it has a lot more ramifications than just where the ceremony takes place. However, that is also HIS choice. Especially in terms of potentially no longer being in good standing with the Catholic church. He needs to be the primary one having these discussions with his mom.

banana468 · June 2018

knottieda10bcd9733d97aa said:

Help! I need some suggestions on how to deal with this situation.

My question is, how do I establish a boundary, and *very gently and kindly let her know what her place is in all of this? How do I explain that I'm not sure of where I stand on my faith and that I wish for that to be respected, as I respect her practices and beliefs to be her own? If I don't establish a clear boundary now then I will have trouble with this for probably many years. Thank you!

So one thing is sticking to me in the above and it's why I think the OP may have some issues with the MIL. I hope that you and your FI really look into what it means to have a religious or non religious ceremony full stop. I said that before but this isn't something that's just easily remedied like by going back to church and everything is fine. So some research may be needed on your end to ensure your'e both making the right decision together for the two of you.

Second, I also agree with @mrsconn23 that the put her in her place mindset isn't necessarily the right way to go. Think of the marriage as the beginning here. And this is building a relationship that you're going to have with this woman for a long time. A put in place mindset rarely goes over well with anyone especially if you will possibly share holidays.

charlotte989875 · June 2018

knottieda10bcd9733d97aa said:

Help! I need some suggestions on how to deal with this situation.

For some background, FH and I have been together for about 9 years now. It's been wonderful! His mom is actually one of the nicest, kindest, and wonderful people in my life, which is why this situation has caused such anxiety for me. The whole time FH and I dated she was nothing but kind and generous. When we got engaged and set a date, things started to change.

First, she came with us to the venue we wanted and took a tour - we all loved it! That was just about the only thing we've agreed on so far.

She would always be asking me questions about the wedding and I have been doing my best to dodge them, as I realize we have completely different visions on how this day will go - overall I'm not sure she realizes her place in all of this. Her children are quite literally the center of her world and she would do anything for them, but I am not sure she realizes that there is a whole other family involved and that decisions are being made between her son and....the bride?

Anyway, so first she would ask me questions about what I was thinking about the color palate - I told her burgundy, blush, golds, lots of greenery (it's a fall wedding). She didn't really say anything but it was clear she wasn't a fan. Not a big deal in this case. Then I would mention things like the fact that I don't want to bother with favors because people don't usually take them and she goes on about how she can do them, which I took as her wanting to help so I let that one go too. Then she had a problem with the number of people in the wedding party (6 on each side) and seemed personally offended by that decision, and that it was way too many. I can cut her daughter out if she wants?? And then she had a problem with one of the girls I wanted to have in it, etc. She also kept suggesting this VERY expensive dessert option that just isn't in the budget (she is paying for the rehearsal dinner - we are paying for the wedding with some help from my parents) - though later on she did mention that it's expensive. Again, all minor things that I'm not going to lose sleep over.

But here's the one thing I can't let go. She is deeply deeply Catholic. I think it's wonderful that she has a faith and a community that she loves so much and it makes her happy. I would never in a million years try to tell someone how they should live their lives or what they should believe or how they should marry their partner. But I don't feel like that respect of one's beliefs is being reciprocated. We broke the news to her that we won't be getting married in the Catholic church and she was upset but took it better than I thought. But then she made it clear that it was unacceptable to be married by a JP, even a practicing Catholic, and that it wasn't okay to just have "religious undertones" as was/is our intention, and that it would be disrespectful to god.

My question is, how do I establish a boundary, and *very gently and kindly let her know what her place is in all of this? How do I explain that I'm not sure of where I stand on my faith and that I wish for that to be respected, as I respect her practices and beliefs to be her own? If I don't establish a clear boundary now then I will have trouble with this for probably many years. Thank you!

A few things stand out to me that haven't been covered by PPs;

First, you say how wonderful she is, and how great the relationship has been up to this point; this is extremely important to keep in mind when figuring out the wedding planning. Your history with her is positive, it's kind, and it's been working. That should drive a lot of how you (and your FI) deal with this situation. Just because there have been a few bumps in the road, doesn't mean you discount the last 9 years of positive interactions.

Second, this (second/third bolded) sounds super judgy and a little condescending to me, and while that might not be how you mean it, it definitely comes across as pretty harsh. Yes, this is your FI and your wedding; yes you should have the ceremony/colors/whatever you want. But you previously have said she's a wonderful woman, but now she needs to "know her place"? Maybe some of this is apparent to her as well? I really hope not.

Third, favors/colors/deserts; it sounds like she's just talking with you. She didn't insult your choices, she didn't tell you not to choose them, she just seems like she wasn't super into them. That's okay! No one is going to love all of your choices for your wedding, you have to love them. As long as people are fed properly, have places to sit, and their basic needs met, that's really all that matters.

Everyone else has covered the religious aspect, but one more thing. If you and your FI feel strongly that you are not being respected, he needs to be the one to talk with his mother about it. I'm a big fan of setting appropriate boundaries, but I also think you need to make sure you're picking the right battles.

MyNameIsNot · June 2018

Why is everyone assuming the FI is a practicing Catholic? OP says his mother is a devout Catholic. That does not mean that the FI was ever Catholic or continues to practice. If the OP had said her FI was Catholic and that a secular ceremony with a Catholic lay person performing the ceremony was their compromise, I could see where all this would make sense. But there's no mention at all of the FI's faith.

Either way, OP, have your FI handle this. He needs to be the one to have the difficult conversations with his mother, not you. It's his responsibility to set boundaries with her. If he has left the church, it's up to him to discuss that with his mother. For the non-faith issues (colors, WP, etc.) just bean dip her. "Thanks for the suggestion. What are you planning for the fourth?"

banana468 · June 2018

MyNameIsNot said:

Why is everyone assuming the FI is a practicing Catholic? OP says his mother is a devout Catholic. That does not mean that the FI was ever Catholic or continues to practice. If the OP had said her FI was Catholic and that a secular ceremony with a Catholic lay person performing the ceremony was their compromise, I could see where all this would make sense. But there's no mention at all of the FI's faith.

Either way, OP, have your FI handle this. He needs to be the one to have the difficult conversations with his mother, not you. It's his responsibility to set boundaries with her. If he has left the church, it's up to him to discuss that with his mother. For the non-faith issues (colors, WP, etc.) just bean dip her. "Thanks for the suggestion. What are you planning for the fourth?"

The faith of the FI isn't mentioned but if the FMIL is deeply Catholic then as a practicing (and the OP can correct me if I'm wrong) that a deeply Catholic woman would have raised her child in the church for a ton of reasons. He would at least have been confirmed. Again, making an assumption here that the FI is identifying as Catholic but most likely isn't practicing currently or at least not with weekly attendance. When that's the case I think a lot of parents think (hope) that the marriage will still be Sacramental.

Also, she comments in the last paragraph that she's not sure where she stands on her faith. I'm interpreting that (possibly incorrectly) that she may have at least previously identified as some kind of Christian.

The OP can come back and clarify if this is incorrect. I don't think these assumptions are far off base.

STARMOON44 · June 2018

banana468 said:

knottieda10bcd9733d97aa said:

Help! I need some suggestions on how to deal with this situation.

My question is, how do I establish a boundary, and *very gently and kindly let her know what her place is in all of this? How do I explain that I'm not sure of where I stand on my faith and that I wish for that to be respected, as I respect her practices and beliefs to be her own? If I don't establish a clear boundary now then I will have trouble with this for probably many years. Thank you!

So one thing is sticking to me in the above and it's why I think the OP may have some issues with the MIL. I hope that you and your FI really look into what it means to have a religious or non religious ceremony full stop. I said that before but this isn't something that's just easily remedied like by going back to church and everything is fine. So some research may be needed on your end to ensure your'e both making the right decision together for the two of you.

Second, I also agree with @mrsconn23 that the put her in her place mindset isn't necessarily the right way to go. Think of the marriage as the beginning here. And this is building a relationship that you're going to have with this woman for a long time. A put in place mindset rarely goes over well with anyone especially if you will possibly share holidays.

Idk why you’re assuming they hasn’t done their research, aren’t fully aware, and aren’t 100 percent okay with this.

banana468 · June 2018

STARMOON44 said:

banana468 said:

knottieda10bcd9733d97aa said:

Help! I need some suggestions on how to deal with this situation.

My question is, how do I establish a boundary, and *very gently and kindly let her know what her place is in all of this? How do I explain that I'm not sure of where I stand on my faith and that I wish for that to be respected, as I respect her practices and beliefs to be her own? If I don't establish a clear boundary now then I will have trouble with this for probably many years. Thank you!

So one thing is sticking to me in the above and it's why I think the OP may have some issues with the MIL. I hope that you and your FI really look into what it means to have a religious or non religious ceremony full stop. I said that before but this isn't something that's just easily remedied like by going back to church and everything is fine. So some research may be needed on your end to ensure your'e both making the right decision together for the two of you.

Second, I also agree with @mrsconn23 that the put her in her place mindset isn't necessarily the right way to go. Think of the marriage as the beginning here. And this is building a relationship that you're going to have with this woman for a long time. A put in place mindset rarely goes over well with anyone especially if you will possibly share holidays.

Idk why you’re assuming they hasn’t done their research, aren’t fully aware, and aren’t 100 percent okay with this.

I am making the assumption that the FI is some kind of Catholic. If he is, they're not going to find a JP who is Catholic who will do this. It's not congruent with the faith of a Catholic to preside over a marriage ceremony of someone of his/her faith who intends to marry outside it. If the OP thinks that she's found someone to do this I am doubtful.

Also, the OP says that she's not sure where she stands in her faith. That's telling me that if she's not sure where she's standing can't be 100 % OK with it. And again, the things she proposes aren't things that can work with a practicing Catholic so it makes me wonder if the solutions for who will marry them are in her head only.

STARMOON44 · June 2018

banana468 said:

STARMOON44 said:

banana468 said:

knottieda10bcd9733d97aa said:

Help! I need some suggestions on how to deal with this situation.

My question is, how do I establish a boundary, and *very gently and kindly let her know what her place is in all of this? How do I explain that I'm not sure of where I stand on my faith and that I wish for that to be respected, as I respect her practices and beliefs to be her own? If I don't establish a clear boundary now then I will have trouble with this for probably many years. Thank you!

So one thing is sticking to me in the above and it's why I think the OP may have some issues with the MIL. I hope that you and your FI really look into what it means to have a religious or non religious ceremony full stop. I said that before but this isn't something that's just easily remedied like by going back to church and everything is fine. So some research may be needed on your end to ensure your'e both making the right decision together for the two of you.

Second, I also agree with @mrsconn23 that the put her in her place mindset isn't necessarily the right way to go. Think of the marriage as the beginning here. And this is building a relationship that you're going to have with this woman for a long time. A put in place mindset rarely goes over well with anyone especially if you will possibly share holidays.

Idk why you’re assuming they hasn’t done their research, aren’t fully aware, and aren’t 100 percent okay with this.

I am making the assumption that the FI is some kind of Catholic. If he is, they're not going to find a JP who is Catholic who will do this. It's not congruent with the faith of a Catholic to preside over a marriage ceremony of someone of his/her faith who intends to marry outside it. If the OP thinks that she's found someone to do this I am doubtful.

Also, the OP says that she's not sure where she stands in her faith. That's telling me that if she's not sure where she's standing can't be 100 % OK with it. And again, the things she proposes aren't things that can work with a practicing Catholic so it makes me wonder if the solutions for who will marry them are in her head only.

I just think you are wrong. There are loads of judges around here who serve as for hire wedding officiants who are themselves Catholic and do weddings for anyone who asks. This is a boundaries questions not a please explain Catholicism to me question.

banana468 · June 2018

STARMOON44 said:

banana468 said:

STARMOON44 said:

banana468 said:

knottieda10bcd9733d97aa said:

Help! I need some suggestions on how to deal with this situation.

My question is, how do I establish a boundary, and *very gently and kindly let her know what her place is in all of this? How do I explain that I'm not sure of where I stand on my faith and that I wish for that to be respected, as I respect her practices and beliefs to be her own? If I don't establish a clear boundary now then I will have trouble with this for probably many years. Thank you!

So one thing is sticking to me in the above and it's why I think the OP may have some issues with the MIL. I hope that you and your FI really look into what it means to have a religious or non religious ceremony full stop. I said that before but this isn't something that's just easily remedied like by going back to church and everything is fine. So some research may be needed on your end to ensure your'e both making the right decision together for the two of you.

Second, I also agree with @mrsconn23 that the put her in her place mindset isn't necessarily the right way to go. Think of the marriage as the beginning here. And this is building a relationship that you're going to have with this woman for a long time. A put in place mindset rarely goes over well with anyone especially if you will possibly share holidays.

Idk why you’re assuming they hasn’t done their research, aren’t fully aware, and aren’t 100 percent okay with this.

I am making the assumption that the FI is some kind of Catholic. If he is, they're not going to find a JP who is Catholic who will do this. It's not congruent with the faith of a Catholic to preside over a marriage ceremony of someone of his/her faith who intends to marry outside it. If the OP thinks that she's found someone to do this I am doubtful.

Also, the OP says that she's not sure where she stands in her faith. That's telling me that if she's not sure where she's standing can't be 100 % OK with it. And again, the things she proposes aren't things that can work with a practicing Catholic so it makes me wonder if the solutions for who will marry them are in her head only.

I just think you are wrong. There are loads of judges around here who serve as for hire wedding officiants who are themselves Catholic and do weddings for anyone who asks. This is a boundaries questions not a please explain Catholicism to me question.

I'm going to defer to @flantastic as someone with more doctrine knowledge. My understanding is that while a judge can marry anyone if the couple state that they ARE Catholic then he's not supposed to.

Regardless, who the OP finds to marry them is a small portion of the overall situation that involves boundaries and a need for her FI to talk to his mom.

STARMOON44 · June 2018

banana468 said:

STARMOON44 said:

banana468 said:

STARMOON44 said:

banana468 said:

knottieda10bcd9733d97aa said:

Help! I need some suggestions on how to deal with this situation.

My question is, how do I establish a boundary, and *very gently and kindly let her know what her place is in all of this? How do I explain that I'm not sure of where I stand on my faith and that I wish for that to be respected, as I respect her practices and beliefs to be her own? If I don't establish a clear boundary now then I will have trouble with this for probably many years. Thank you!

So one thing is sticking to me in the above and it's why I think the OP may have some issues with the MIL. I hope that you and your FI really look into what it means to have a religious or non religious ceremony full stop. I said that before but this isn't something that's just easily remedied like by going back to church and everything is fine. So some research may be needed on your end to ensure your'e both making the right decision together for the two of you.

Second, I also agree with @mrsconn23 that the put her in her place mindset isn't necessarily the right way to go. Think of the marriage as the beginning here. And this is building a relationship that you're going to have with this woman for a long time. A put in place mindset rarely goes over well with anyone especially if you will possibly share holidays.

Idk why you’re assuming they hasn’t done their research, aren’t fully aware, and aren’t 100 percent okay with this.

I am making the assumption that the FI is some kind of Catholic. If he is, they're not going to find a JP who is Catholic who will do this. It's not congruent with the faith of a Catholic to preside over a marriage ceremony of someone of his/her faith who intends to marry outside it. If the OP thinks that she's found someone to do this I am doubtful.

Also, the OP says that she's not sure where she stands in her faith. That's telling me that if she's not sure where she's standing can't be 100 % OK with it. And again, the things she proposes aren't things that can work with a practicing Catholic so it makes me wonder if the solutions for who will marry them are in her head only.

I just think you are wrong. There are loads of judges around here who serve as for hire wedding officiants who are themselves Catholic and do weddings for anyone who asks. This is a boundaries questions not a please explain Catholicism to me question.

I'm going to defer to @flantastic as someone with more doctrine knowledge. My understanding is that while a judge can marry anyone if the couple state that they ARE Catholic then he's not supposed to.

Regardless, who the OP finds to marry them is a small portion of the overall situation that involves boundaries and a need for her FI to talk to his mom.

Agreed!

OliveOilsMom · June 2018

STARMOON44 said:

banana468 said:

knottieda10bcd9733d97aa said:

Help! I need some suggestions on how to deal with this situation.

My question is, how do I establish a boundary, and *very gently and kindly let her know what her place is in all of this? How do I explain that I'm not sure of where I stand on my faith and that I wish for that to be respected, as I respect her practices and beliefs to be her own? If I don't establish a clear boundary now then I will have trouble with this for probably many years. Thank you!

So one thing is sticking to me in the above and it's why I think the OP may have some issues with the MIL. I hope that you and your FI really look into what it means to have a religious or non religious ceremony full stop. I said that before but this isn't something that's just easily remedied like by going back to church and everything is fine. So some research may be needed on your end to ensure your'e both making the right decision together for the two of you.

Second, I also agree with @mrsconn23 that the put her in her place mindset isn't necessarily the right way to go. Think of the marriage as the beginning here. And this is building a relationship that you're going to have with this woman for a long time. A put in place mindset rarely goes over well with anyone especially if you will possibly share holidays.

Idk why you’re assuming they hasn’t done their research, aren’t fully aware, and aren’t 100 percent okay with this.

*** You have moved on a bit, but this was my response that got sucked in the "Approved Comment" bull crap of TK.**

Because you would be surprised at how many full time practicing Catholic do not know the rules. There were many brides who would post on the Catholic board (though it is now practically dead - along with many other boards), to ask how they can go about having an outdoor Catholic wedding, for example.

There are also many laypeople who work in the front offices of Churches and give out incorrect information. There have been a few posts over the years on these boards where non-Catholics trying to marry a Catholic have been told that they need to convert. That is also not needed to have a Catholic-valid marriage.

OP - if you ever come back. You mention your beliefs, but what about your FI? If he is a practicing Catholic (or wants to remain in good standing), I think it would be beneficial to meet with a priest to speak about what happens when your FI does not get married in the Church.

If your FI is no longer practicing and does not care about being in "good standing", then HE needs to speak with his mom about the choice you both made in how/where your ceremony will take place.

flantastic · June 2018

banana468 said:

STARMOON44 said:
I just think you are wrong. There are loads of judges around here who serve as for hire wedding officiants who are themselves Catholic and do weddings for anyone who asks. This is a boundaries questions not a please explain Catholicism to me question.

I'm going to defer to @flantastic as someone with more doctrine knowledge. My understanding is that while a judge can marry anyone if the couple state that they ARE Catholic then he's not supposed to.

Regardless, who the OP finds to marry them is a small portion of the overall situation that involves boundaries and a need for her FI to talk to his mom.

Hmmm. So yes, if there is a JP who believes (as strongly as OP's FMIL) that marriage between two Catholics or a Catholic and a baptized Christian is supposed to be celebrated sacramentally will probably have a personal issue with celebrating that wedding, and might lay out the consequences for making that choice, as Banana did.

However, I'm sure there are many Catholic judges/JPs who wouldn't feel as strongly, know there's an issue at all (#badcatechesis), or think it their place to say, and would still celebrate it. But canonically they'd be helping someone make a decision to excommunicate themselves, and I'm sure their priests would recommend against it. (FYI, that term just means you're not supposed to be receiving Communion until your situation gets resolved, which as Banana said is gonna be a significant process).

OP and her FI do have the right to make that decision for themselves, but they should know what it entails and be sure that's the route that her FI wants to take. And I understand the perspective that it seems disingenuous to try to incorporate Catholic faith elements into an otherwise secular ceremony (when you are making a fully conscious decision to ignore the Church - if you don't know any better, then I'll cut you some slack). You either are or you aren't having a Catholic wedding.

OP, as for the rest, just keep doing your thing. Just have 6 BMs - there's no need to do anything specific to "put her in her place," just make the decisions that are yours and for which you're paying. If a conflict comes up, best to have your FI explain to her your joint decisions are joint and are made.

6fsn · June 2018

This is kind of interesting. A Catholic cannot become ordained in another church to perform the ceremony, but a Catholic JP could do a civil ceremony.

https://www.catholic.com/qa/can-i-be-ordained-online-to-officiate-a-wedding

As someone who constantly gets asked about my religion I make a statement and move on. To my SIL who asks to get a rise out of me I just say I won't discuss it. If someone else happens to ask (a rarity) I will do my best to explain. If your MIL is as great as you say, simply tell her that you are working on discerning your faith.

ILoveBeachMusic · June 2018

6fsn said:

This is kind of interesting. A Catholic cannot become ordained in another church to perform the ceremony, but a Catholic JP could do a civil ceremony.
https://www.catholic.com/qa/can-i-be-ordained-online-to-officiate-a-wedding
As someone who constantly gets asked about my religion I make a statement and move on. To my SIL who asks to get a rise out of me I just say I won't discuss it. If someone else happens to ask (a rarity) I will do my best to explain. If your MIL is as great as you say, simply tell her that you are working on discerning your faith.

That is interesting. I wonder how many Catholics are really aware of this? I can think of a few who have officiated at civil ceremonies and weren't civil servants themselves.

banana468 · June 2018

ILoveBeachMusic said:

6fsn said:

This is kind of interesting. A Catholic cannot become ordained in another church to perform the ceremony, but a Catholic JP could do a civil ceremony.
https://www.catholic.com/qa/can-i-be-ordained-online-to-officiate-a-wedding
As someone who constantly gets asked about my religion I make a statement and move on. To my SIL who asks to get a rise out of me I just say I won't discuss it. If someone else happens to ask (a rarity) I will do my best to explain. If your MIL is as great as you say, simply tell her that you are working on discerning your faith.

That is interesting. I wonder how many Catholics are really aware of this? I can think of a few who have officiated at civil ceremonies and weren't civil servants themselves.

It make sense. You can't ordain yourself in another church because then in what church are you a member?

I agree that there are plenty of Catholics who just have poor Catechesis. Often the requirements for marriage within the church aren't emphasized or remembered when the last of instruction that many Catholics get are in preparation for Confirmation which is usually in early teens. Then a lot is forgotten.

flantastic · June 2018

6fsn said:

This is kind of interesting. A Catholic cannot become ordained in another church to perform the ceremony, but a Catholic JP could do a civil ceremony.
https://www.catholic.com/qa/can-i-be-ordained-online-to-officiate-a-wedding
As someone who constantly gets asked about my religion I make a statement and move on. To my SIL who asks to get a rise out of me I just say I won't discuss it. If someone else happens to ask (a rarity) I will do my best to explain. If your MIL is as great as you say, simply tell her that you are working on discerning your faith.

Yup. If you're not Catholic, then you don't have to get married Catholic. So there's no issue with Catholics helping people contract "valid" (canon law term) civil marriages if it's not their responsibility to get married in the Church.

If you are Catholic, though (especially if you're confirmed), then you're responsible for getting married in a Catholic ceremony, or get the appropriate permission from your bishop not to. I could see the Catholic civil servant refusing to "aid and abet" someone who doesn't take those steps. If OP's FI does that, then any Catholic JP should have no problem. I actually know a couple in that situation - they got a dispensation to have their wedding outside the Church because one was Catholic and the other was vehemently anti-Catholic (at the time).

But many people are pretty well unaware of all of this, even if they've been practicing their whole lives.

STARMOON44 · June 2018

flantastic said:

6fsn said:

This is kind of interesting. A Catholic cannot become ordained in another church to perform the ceremony, but a Catholic JP could do a civil ceremony.
https://www.catholic.com/qa/can-i-be-ordained-online-to-officiate-a-wedding
As someone who constantly gets asked about my religion I make a statement and move on. To my SIL who asks to get a rise out of me I just say I won't discuss it. If someone else happens to ask (a rarity) I will do my best to explain. If your MIL is as great as you say, simply tell her that you are working on discerning your faith.

Yup. If you're not Catholic, then you don't have to get married Catholic. So there's no issue with Catholics helping people contract "valid" (canon law term) civil marriages if it's not their responsibility to get married in the Church.

If you are Catholic, though (especially if you're confirmed), then you're responsible for getting married in a Catholic ceremony, or get the appropriate permission from your bishop not to. I could see the Catholic civil servant refusing to "aid and abet" someone who doesn't take those steps. If OP's FI does that, then any Catholic JP should have no problem. I actually know a couple in that situation - they got a dispensation to have their wedding outside the Church because one was Catholic and the other was vehemently anti-Catholic (at the time).

But many people are pretty well unaware of all of this, even if they've been practicing their whole lives.

And I’d certainly hope many others marry everyone who turns up at the courthouse or hire without asking their religions because this isn’t a theocracy and if your interpretation of your catholic faith requires you to discriminate in civil weddings then you don’t have any business taking on the business of being a public official who conducts weddings.

flantastic · June 2018

STARMOON44 said:

flantastic said:

6fsn said:

This is kind of interesting. A Catholic cannot become ordained in another church to perform the ceremony, but a Catholic JP could do a civil ceremony.
https://www.catholic.com/qa/can-i-be-ordained-online-to-officiate-a-wedding
As someone who constantly gets asked about my religion I make a statement and move on. To my SIL who asks to get a rise out of me I just say I won't discuss it. If someone else happens to ask (a rarity) I will do my best to explain. If your MIL is as great as you say, simply tell her that you are working on discerning your faith.

Yup. If you're not Catholic, then you don't have to get married Catholic. So there's no issue with Catholics helping people contract "valid" (canon law term) civil marriages if it's not their responsibility to get married in the Church.

If you are Catholic, though (especially if you're confirmed), then you're responsible for getting married in a Catholic ceremony, or get the appropriate permission from your bishop not to. I could see the Catholic civil servant refusing to "aid and abet" someone who doesn't take those steps. If OP's FI does that, then any Catholic JP should have no problem. I actually know a couple in that situation - they got a dispensation to have their wedding outside the Church because one was Catholic and the other was vehemently anti-Catholic (at the time).

But many people are pretty well unaware of all of this, even if they've been practicing their whole lives.

And I’d certainly hope many others marry everyone who turns up at the courthouse or hire without asking their religions because this isn’t a theocracy and if your interpretation of your catholic faith requires you to discriminate in civil weddings then you don’t have any business taking on the business of being a public official who conducts weddings.

I think this comes up when someone asks for a Catholic JP specifically because they want "Catholic elements" in their ceremony, not in the general course of things.

banana468 · June 2018

flantastic said:

STARMOON44 said:

flantastic said:

6fsn said:

This is kind of interesting. A Catholic cannot become ordained in another church to perform the ceremony, but a Catholic JP could do a civil ceremony.
https://www.catholic.com/qa/can-i-be-ordained-online-to-officiate-a-wedding
As someone who constantly gets asked about my religion I make a statement and move on. To my SIL who asks to get a rise out of me I just say I won't discuss it. If someone else happens to ask (a rarity) I will do my best to explain. If your MIL is as great as you say, simply tell her that you are working on discerning your faith.

Yup. If you're not Catholic, then you don't have to get married Catholic. So there's no issue with Catholics helping people contract "valid" (canon law term) civil marriages if it's not their responsibility to get married in the Church.

If you are Catholic, though (especially if you're confirmed), then you're responsible for getting married in a Catholic ceremony, or get the appropriate permission from your bishop not to. I could see the Catholic civil servant refusing to "aid and abet" someone who doesn't take those steps. If OP's FI does that, then any Catholic JP should have no problem. I actually know a couple in that situation - they got a dispensation to have their wedding outside the Church because one was Catholic and the other was vehemently anti-Catholic (at the time).

But many people are pretty well unaware of all of this, even if they've been practicing their whole lives.

And I’d certainly hope many others marry everyone who turns up at the courthouse or hire without asking their religions because this isn’t a theocracy and if your interpretation of your catholic faith requires you to discriminate in civil weddings then you don’t have any business taking on the business of being a public official who conducts weddings.

I think this comes up when someone asks for a Catholic JP specifically because they want "Catholic elements" in their ceremony, not in the general course of things.

@STARMOON44 I get what you're saying. There are probably loads of Catholic judges who have married non practicing Catholics in civil unions.

But if the couple are now ASKING for religious elements then that's where it's different. Then they're trying to ask the officiant to add aspects of faith to the ceremony.

6fsn · June 2018

I wonder what aspects they are trying to add though. I reading from the Bible? Lay people do that every day. A pray? yep, lay people do that too.

short+sassy · June 2018

6fsn said:

I wonder what aspects they are trying to add though. I reading from the Bible? Lay people do that every day. A pray? yep, lay people do that too.

I interpreted "religious undertones" to be much more general and that it would not include anything specifically Catholic. The ceremony might mention God, have prayers, perhaps a quote from the Bible. Any, none, or all of that. So I'm also a little confused by that.

If that's the case, the FMIL...at least for that aspect...would be trying to push her own religious beliefs/views on the ceremony. I don't want to speak for other religions or other parts of Christianity, so I'll speak for what I know. I was married outside, not in or near a church, by a Lutheran pastor (I was raised Lutheran). Prayers were said. God was mentioned multiple times. None of that is considered disrespectful to God for us and probably all/most Protestant sects. I'm sure it's not disrespectful for agnostics either.

I would have thought that was true for Catholicism and Greek Orthodox also. So maybe this is a FMIL thing. Or maybe I'm wrong and/or misunderstanding something.

How do I deal with Future Mother in Law (FMIL)

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