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Disaster! Help!

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Re: Disaster! Help!

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    PeonyPrincesskddPeonyPrincesskdd
    First Comment
    edited December 2011

    Alright. Forget about the receiving line and wedding party dance and table.  They were mere examples I was giving about what I thought was outdated and not typical of most of today's weddings. 

    The underlying issue here is your quote on quote" Proper ettiquette regarding bridal party duties", and saying that the "MOH has to take on as many duties as possible for the bride". 

    All of that, is what everyone was disagreeing with and didn't think it was any longer part of  today's standards of  "Proper Ettiquette".

    Really.  If you are making a bridal party you want to choose your closest friends to stand up there with you at the alter. 

    If friend A lives across the state, and friend 2 has a baby and husband and friend C has a busy work schedule and friend D just isn't into weddings.. then if you based your bridal party off of who will do all the work for you, YOU WILL HAVE NO BRIDAL PARTY...

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    MrsMack10612MrsMack10612 member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its First Answer First Comment
    edited December 2011
    And as I have stated several times I HAVE NO EXPECTATIONS OF MY ATTENDANTS.  I chose them because they are my best friends and sister.  They are the people that I want closest to me.  End of story.  If they wish to help me tie ribbons, or address invitations, run errands or go on dress fittings with me fine, but guess what I am well aware that 99% of that stuff I will be doing on my own.  All of them have lives and children and husbands of their own.  One of them lives in GA.

    I find it very interesting that because I have posted what Etiquette has (or had) dictated it is assumed that I will adhere to it chapter and verse.

    Traditional does not equal bad.
    Outdated does not equal bad.

    It may not work for you and it may not work for me, but it does not make it WRONG.

    I have every intention of wearing my mother's wedding dress circa 1962; with no intention of altering a single thread.  Is it outdated - probably.  Does that make it bad?  Not in the least. 

     

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    AutumnFairAutumnFair member
    First Anniversary First Comment
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_moms-maids_disaster?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:357Discussion:4a504e4d-0cad-4382-92b6-7a566d46e5faPost:bcd4d27f-adc9-497d-8cce-bb7054fd3b2e">Re: Disaster! Help!</a>:
    [QUOTE] Far as I'm concerned a bride & groom can do whatever suits their fancy at their wedding.  If a friend has me in their wedding and I need to stand at a receiving line (which I have) - so be it.  I'll smile, shake hands and kiss cheeks because it'what the the couple wants.  If I have to eat my meal away from my spouse because the couple wants a bridal table (which I have), that's what I'll do. It's not for me to judge if what someone wants their wedding ceremony, reception to include or not.  Well, except maybe those folks that I read in a thread that wanted to charge their guests $50 pp for their meal.  THAT is unacceptable. Having traditional (which may be considered outdated) expectations of your wedding and attendents does NOT make them unacceptable.
    Posted by kjhowd[/QUOTE]

    <div>I think as long as the B&G don't purposely offend or hurt people then they can do what they want. Something like a receiving line, bridal party dance, usually don't warrant for a fight. But if someone is really put off by not sitting by their SO and the SO is by himself/herself being uncomfortable it would be better for the B&G to accommodate to their friend's wishes then force them to sit at the head table. So yeah, you can have some "traditional" things that you want done for your wedding that are outdated, but depending on what they are and if they offend/hurt should be something to consider carefully because most of the time its not worth the possible drama or hurt feelings.</div>
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    PeonyPrincesskddPeonyPrincesskdd
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_moms-maids_disaster?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:357Discussion:4a504e4d-0cad-4382-92b6-7a566d46e5faPost:5b4a1945-a51d-4c3b-979f-367c41d2154e">Re: Disaster! Help!</a>:
    [QUOTE]I have been at and in weddings before and since 1997 and all of them were different.  Some included wedding party tables, some didn't, some had receiving lines, some didn't.  I can tell you from experience there was no awkwardness amongst the guests or wedding party in either case<strong>. Social norms may have changed since 1997 but proper etiquette has not.  Just because "everyone does it this way" doesn't mean it's right. </strong> By that logic, the dictionary should change the word "ask" to "ax" and "there" = "they're" = "their", regardless of context. Perhaps locating a current edition of Ms. Post's etiquette might be the solution as I will still take her word over anyone else's about what is or is not appropriate, acceptable or correct.
    Posted by kjhowd[/QUOTE]

    I bring up this post here for a reason.  I still do not know what you mean by proper ettiquette.  You mentioned numerous times that you don't follow it yourself, we know, we heard you.  But why do you keep bringing it up.  You brought it up in your initial post about Emily Post and then you say it here again.  BY everyone saying Emily Post is not proper ettiquette and it is WRONG, is our opinion.  We can give our honest opinion.  And that is all it is.  Our opinion.  We are allowed to have opinions too.
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    MrsMack10612MrsMack10612 member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its First Answer First Comment
    edited December 2011
    Proper etiquette is manners and avoiding major social faux pas.

    I follow proper etiquette as much as I can (and I've been known to fail).  I don't know where I said I don't follow etiquette myself (please find that for me); but I did state that I will not be following Post's etiquette rules re: my MOH & BMs.

    Taking into consideration that I am working with an older copyright, I might give you that Post's opinions on wedding etiquette has changed.  However, seeing as Emily Post (and her decendents) have been the FOREMOST authority on etiquette for the last 80+ years since Emily Post published her first book (her family continues the tradition and updates as necessary).  I find it difficult to say that she is wrong, but you are welcome to your opinion.

    And by the way:  here is the URL for Post's current "duties" for all wedding attendants (male & female).  http://www.emilypost.com/attendants

    I guess some of the ideas from 1997 are not so outdated as you think, especially considering Post now provides more specifics than in 1997.

    Oh and before I get blasted again - I understand they are not required.  This is simply to point out that a bride is permitted to have certain expectations - whether they are fulfilled or not is a different story.

     

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    filawfilaw member
    5 Love Its First Anniversary First Comment
    edited December 2011
    ""I have not met one person on this board that thought receiving lines were convenient and acceptable. "

    I think this is exactly what kjhowd is talking about.  The "groupthink" on this board is a little outstanding at times.  Dissenting opinions are often beaten down swiftly and fiercly.  I *have* met people that did not object to receiving lines and WP tables.  I have also even seen people express those opinions on these boards.  They were "shouted" into silence by a dogpile of "blunt" responses about how wrong they were for having the opinion that they didn't mind sitting at a WP table at all.
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    sarah42ndsarah42nd member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_moms-maids_disaster?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:357Discussion:4a504e4d-0cad-4382-92b6-7a566d46e5faPost:8d647688-b39b-4d86-a58b-235f5b029057">Re: Disaster! Help!</a>:
    [QUOTE]" "I have not met one person on this board that thought receiving lines were convenient and acceptable. " I think this is exactly what kjhowd is talking about.  The "groupthink" on this board is a little outstanding at times.  Dissenting opinions are often beaten down swiftly and fiercly.  I *have* met people that did not object to receiving lines and WP tables.  I have also even seen people express those opinions on these boards.  They were "shouted" into silence by a dogpile of "blunt" responses about how wrong they were for having the opinion that they didn't mind sitting at a WP table at all.
    Posted by filaw[/QUOTE]


    I am pretty sure we will be doing a recieving line just for the convience . But to each there own is what I say.
    Anniversary
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    AutumnFairAutumnFair member
    First Anniversary First Comment
    edited December 2011
    I have been to many weddings in my life and started to be in weddings at the age of 15. In my area, I have seen receiving lines, dollar dances, wedding party dances, cash bars, even parties, uneven parties, mixed gender parties, different BM dresses, head tables, head table with SO, sweet heart table, the list goes on. 

    As for Bridesmaids stuff I have been a BM and MOH multiple times. I have dealt with friends who get some "wedding crazies" and throw an attitude if something isn't going there way, I have helped with wedding stuff, I have cancelled in helping with some weddings stuff, I have hosted parties, I have been to showers that were not hosted by BMs/MOH, once again the list goes on.

     The point being is that I learned from these weddings a lot of things that are dos and donts and to look over Emily's list I can tell you that many things on the list people actually do because hey we girls most of us like this pretty stuff. But to have the Bride expect all those things of her BM/MOH is crap, there are just too many variables out there to have a person expect another to do any of that stuff and to force a person to do something for you is just plain rude. Once again, the wedding planning is up to the Bride/Groom (or wedding planner), and no one but them should be expect to plan, make stuff, for their wedding.
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    filawfilaw member
    5 Love Its First Anniversary First Comment
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_moms-maids_disaster?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:357Discussion:4a504e4d-0cad-4382-92b6-7a566d46e5faPost:62a02338-f853-4d8e-acf3-ed0454e99319">Re: Disaster! Help!</a>:
    [QUOTE]I have been to many weddings in my life and started to be in weddings at the age of 15. In my area, I have seen receiving lines, dollar dances, wedding party dances, cash bars, even parties, uneven parties, mixed gender parties, different BM dresses, head tables, head table with SO, sweet heart table, the list goes on.  As for Bridesmaids stuff I have been a BM and MOH multiple times. I have dealt with friends who get some "wedding crazies" and throw an attitude if something isn't going there way, I have helped with wedding stuff, I have cancelled in helping with some weddings stuff, I have hosted parties, I have been to showers that were not hosted by BMs/MOH, once again the list goes on.  The point being is that I learned from these weddings a lot of things that are dos and donts and to look over Emily's list I can tell you that many things on the list people actually do because hey we girls most of us like this pretty stuff. But to have the Bride expect all those things of her BM/MOH is crap, there are just too many variables out there to have a person expect another to do any of that stuff and to force a person to do something for you is just plain rude. Once again, the wedding planning is up to the Bride/Groom (or wedding planner), and no one but them should be expect to plan, make stuff, for their wedding.
    Posted by AutumnFair[/QUOTE]

    Yours is not the attitude the comes across most strongly to me on these boards.

    The attitude I hear is:
    WP Dances
    Recieving Lines
    WP Head Tables
    Kids younger than 2 in the WP
    Children of the couple in the ceremony
    Signs that say "Here Comes the Bride"
    Too much matchy matchy in the WP
    And pretty much anything (serious or rediculous) that the "groupthink" has decided is wrong is just...

    ...Wrong, wrong and objectively WRONG.

    And if you do them, people may not say they don't like 'em, but "we" guarentee you they won't like them and will laugh at you/talk about you behind your back.

    And any dissenting opinions seem to get shot down very quickly.
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    PeonyPrincesskddPeonyPrincesskdd
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_moms-maids_disaster?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:357Discussion:4a504e4d-0cad-4382-92b6-7a566d46e5faPost:8d647688-b39b-4d86-a58b-235f5b029057">Re: Disaster! Help!</a>:
    [QUOTE]" "I have not met one person on this board that thought receiving lines were convenient and acceptable. " I think this is exactly what kjhowd is talking about.  The "groupthink" on this board is a little outstanding at times.  Dissenting opinions are often beaten down swiftly and fiercly.  I *have* met people that did not object to receiving lines and WP tables.  I have also even seen people express those opinions on these boards.  They were "shouted" into silence by a dogpile of "blunt" responses about how wrong they were for having the opinion that they didn't mind sitting at a WP table at all.
    Posted by filaw[/QUOTE]

    Hey, I'm only stating a fact, that I really never participated in receiving line, bridal party dance or been to a wedding where they had a bridal party table.  That is all.  It doesn't necessarily mean I am 100% right in that they are outdated; I'm sure some one out there does it, I just don't know anyone who has.. and everyone on here says they don't do it because it's out dated
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    PeonyPrincesskddPeonyPrincesskdd
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_moms-maids_disaster?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:357Discussion:4a504e4d-0cad-4382-92b6-7a566d46e5faPost:8493db4e-ea5a-4970-9580-bb1a7c7b952b">Re: Disaster! Help!</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Disaster! Help! : Yours is not the attitude the comes across most strongly to me on these boards. The attitude I hear is: WP Dances Recieving Lines WP Head Tables Kids younger than 2 in the WP<strong> Children of the couple in the ceremony</strong> Signs that say "Here Comes the Bride" Too much matchy matchy in the WP And pretty much anything (serious or rediculous) that the "groupthink" has decided is wrong is just... ...Wrong, wrong and objectively WRONG. And if you do them, people may not say they don't like 'em, but "we" guarentee you they won't like them and will laugh at you/talk about you behind your back. And any dissenting opinions seem to get shot down very quickly.
    Posted by filaw[/QUOTE]

    What do you mean children of the couple in the ceremony?  Of course they would be in the ceremony.  Everyone the bride and groom is close enough to watch the baby will BE at the wedding therefore the kid has to be at the wedding ..being their child and all.. of course my 2 year old daughter was at the wedding from 8 am to all night long.
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    Belle2BeBelle2Be member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_moms-maids_disaster?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:357Discussion:4a504e4d-0cad-4382-92b6-7a566d46e5faPost:a54c24af-90eb-47fb-9510-fc3520a0d275">Re: Disaster! Help!</a>:
    [QUOTE]Alright. Forget about the receiving line and wedding party dance and table.  They were mere examples I was giving about what I thought was outdated and not typical of most of today's weddings.  The underlying issue here is your <strong>quote on quote"</strong> Proper ettiquette regarding bridal party duties", and saying that the "MOH has to take on as many duties as possible for the bride".  All of that, is what everyone was disagreeing with and didn't think it was any longer part of  today's standards of  "Proper Ettiquette". Really.  If you are making a bridal party you want to choose your closest friends to stand up there with you at the alter.  If friend A lives across the state, and friend 2 has a baby and husband and friend C has a busy work schedule and friend D just isn't into weddings.. then if you based your bridal party off of who will do all the work for you, YOU WILL HAVE NO BRIDAL PARTY...
    Posted by PeonyPrincesskdd[/QUOTE]
    I believe what you mean to say is  "Quote UN Quote" which is only said in coversation when quoting someone, not in text where you can put quotation marks to denote that it is a direct quote.
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    Belle2BeBelle2Be member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_moms-maids_disaster?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:357Discussion:4a504e4d-0cad-4382-92b6-7a566d46e5faPost:913c654f-1765-482b-ad6b-955d6b822f76">Re: Disaster! Help!</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Disaster! Help! : Are you serious.<strong>  I have not met one person on this board that thought receiving lines were convenient and acceptable. </strong> Don't quote me on that, but ask around.  I am sure they will tell you they are out dated.  If I am wrong on that one I am sure that everyone will tell you the wedding party table is taboo.  It is wrong to have the bridal party sitting at one table and their spouses are at a totally different table.  That is just crazy.
    Posted by PeonyPrincesskdd[/QUOTE]


    Now you've met one. I've seen a recieving line at every wedding I've been too.  And a couple of them had Party tables.  Has it occured to you that different regions will have different traditions and expectations for a wedding?
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    Belle2BeBelle2Be member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    <strong>In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_moms-maids_disaster?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:357Discussion:4a504e4d-0cad-4382-92b6-7a566d46e5faPost:7f8c6f6f-5ef1-4951-ac59-a62975527185">Re: Disaster! Help!</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Disaster! Help! : OMG somebody get it through her head that bridal party requirements and duties are not proper ettiquette.  I really can't believe what I am hearing. 
    Posted by PeonyPrincesskdd[/QUOTE]


    </strong>And yet you say only a few posts prior that no-one is being rude? This above sentiment cannot be stated in a way that doesn't carry a belittling tone.
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    Belle2BeBelle2Be member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_moms-maids_disaster?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:357Discussion:4a504e4d-0cad-4382-92b6-7a566d46e5faPost:309f44d4-de07-402a-895c-b4fdf8c8fb3e">Re: Disaster! Help!</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Disaster! Help! : Hey, I'm only stating a fact, that I really never participated in receiving line, bridal party dance or been to a wedding where they had a bridal party table.  That is all.  It doesn't necessarily mean I am 100% right in that they are outdated; I'm sure some one out there does it, I just don't know anyone who has.. and everyone on here says they don't do it because it's out dated
    Posted by PeonyPrincesskdd[/QUOTE]


    This actually isn't what you stated at all. You seem to like to speak for others and use "We" alot though.
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    PeonyPrincesskddPeonyPrincesskdd
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_moms-maids_disaster?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:357Discussion:4a504e4d-0cad-4382-92b6-7a566d46e5faPost:b8ea518c-d96c-42ee-903c-026c30132b4d">Re: Disaster! Help!</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Disaster! Help! : Now you've met one. I've seen a recieving line at every wedding I've been too.  And a couple of them had Party tables.  Has it occured to you that different regions will have different traditions and expectations for a wedding?
    Posted by Belle2Be[/QUOTE]

    Again what is your problem you little twit.  I can state a fact if I want to.  It is true that all the weddings I have been to didn't have receivng lines, bridal party dances, or bridal party tables. 

    I have been around these boards and saw others taking about the same thing, that they aren't done much today.  That doesn't mean they are NEVER done. 

    And if the people on these boards don't like wedding party dances, receiving line, and bridal party table, we don't have to.  I can have my own opinion and you can do whatever you want.  I'm not stopping you from having them and I'm not saying that your a liar and that no one on the face of the world does them. So you can quit justifying yourself now and get lost.
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    AutumnFairAutumnFair member
    First Anniversary First Comment
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_moms-maids_disaster?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:357Discussion:4a504e4d-0cad-4382-92b6-7a566d46e5faPost:8493db4e-ea5a-4970-9580-bb1a7c7b952b">Re: Disaster! Help!</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Disaster! Help! : Yours is not the attitude the comes across most strongly to me on these boards. The attitude I hear is: WP Dances Recieving Lines WP Head Tables Kids younger than 2 in the WP Children of the couple in the ceremony Signs that say "Here Comes the Bride" Too much matchy matchy in the WP And pretty much anything (serious or rediculous) that the "groupthink" has decided is wrong is just... ...Wrong, wrong and objectively WRONG. And if you do them, people may not say they don't like 'em, but "we" guarentee you they won't like them and will laugh at you/talk about you behind your back. And any dissenting opinions seem to get shot down very quickly.
    Posted by filaw[/QUOTE]

    <div>In my personal opinion I do not like WP Dancing, Receiving Lines, WP Head tables (w/out the SO), matchy matchy dresses, depending on why there is a "Here Comes the Bride" kid (if was to just add another kid fine but I just don't get the concept). Would I say these things to the B&G? No, like I said, to me I'm pretty laid back and go with the flow so I don't hurt the couples feelings, plus I rather not stir up drama. Same with being a guest, it's boring to watch just a the WP dance, it takes forever and is super awkward when going through receiving lines, and I feel bad for couples that get separated when it comes to head tables. </div><div>
    </div><div>That being said for the amount of time I've been here, I have never seen regulars bash matchy matchy dresses or kids in the WP under the age of 2. Plus the head table is usually not a debate unless a Bride comes here with the argument that one of her WP members is upset because they don't want their SO sitting by themselves or with random people in which we say to either let the SO be at the head table also or have a sweetheart table. Same with the dresses, I think a lot of regulars actually had matching BMs dresses but they also consulted with their BMs before they picked out the dress. Its not that matching is wrong we just suggest to do non-matching to Brides who are having a hard time dealing with BMs with various body types or live across the country because it makes it easier on everyone and solves the situation. </div><div>
    </div><div>Also once you been here or lurked long enough you will see different perspectives on things you never really thought about. I used be a big defender of cash bars, but seeing various topics and debates about what guest really feel about it (my friend's H is still confused when he comes from the city to our area which has cash bars as a common status for weddings still, though nowadays beer/wine/soda are free), I am opened minded to see that is annoying and kind of tacky. Do I totally bash weddings I go to who have cash bars? Heck no, I just go with the flow and if I really want a drink I will pay for it without complaint (once again I cherish people's feelings and really wouldn't want to hurt them over a drink). </div><div>
    </div><div>Anyway, that's my take on the various wedding traditions. I try to be open to all sides when someone post, its usually when the Bride is stubborn about her stance and calls people names because she isn't getting the answers she wants that I get a little more aggressive. <img src="http://cdn.cl9.vanillaforums.com/downloaded/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-tongue-out.gif" border="0" alt="Tongue out" title="Tongue out" /></div><div>
    </div>
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    Belle2BeBelle2Be member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_moms-maids_disaster?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:357Discussion:4a504e4d-0cad-4382-92b6-7a566d46e5faPost:9d362d12-5439-450a-abff-d3bfff629cad">Re: Disaster! Help!</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Disaster! Help! : Again what is your problem you little twit.  I can state a fact if I want to.  It is true that all the weddings I have been to didn't have receivng lines, bridal party dances, or bridal party tables.  I have been around these boards and saw others taking about the same thing, that they aren't done much today.  That doesn't mean they are NEVER done.  And if the people on these boards don't like wedding party dances, receiving line, and bridal party table, we don't have to.  I can have my own opinion and you can do whatever you want.  I'm not stopping you from having them and I'm not saying that your a liar and that no one on the face of the world does them. So you can quit justifying yourself now and get lost.
    Posted by PeonyPrincesskdd[/QUOTE]


    LOL! Wow you are a WINNER.
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    PeonyPrincesskddPeonyPrincesskdd
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_moms-maids_disaster?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:357Discussion:4a504e4d-0cad-4382-92b6-7a566d46e5faPost:4c681b82-a007-4440-9a45-0168e4fbff48">Re: Disaster! Help!</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Disaster! Help! : LOL! Wow you are a WINNER.
    Posted by Belle2Be[/QUOTE]


    Why are you even here?? Did you even post about the OP and the whole situation or did you just come here to start trouble. 
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    trix1223trix1223 member
    5 Love Its Combo Breaker First Comment
    edited December 2011
    I think the debate here is etiquette vs. social norms.  And yes, social norms HAVE changed.  Some for the better and some for worse.  I actually agree with alot that kjhowd has said.

    Peony, please substitute "norms" for etiquette.  Because,as just one example:  etiquette does say that every guest must be acknowledged at a wedding.  That has been done for years with a receiving line.  But social norms have changed.  Now people do "pew dismissals" from ceremonies, or table visits at receptions to fulfill this etiquette dictate.

    And just FWIW, peony, I am a person, since you said you don't know any, who does think that a receiving line is a good idea, and I always encourage them.  It's the easiest and most efficient way to make sure that EVERY guest is greeted.

    I don't think head tables have anything to do with etiquette.  It was the norm back in the day, when I was married, to have a head table.  So we did.  Then someone started thinking about the ramifications of decisions like those, and came up with alternate ideas.  I think that was a good change.

    WP "duties" may be listed in an etiquette book, but I'm not sure that the duties are about etiquette.  Again, I think they're about social norms. 

    I'm going to back again to my wedding (1978).  WPs did, quite literally, simply come to the rehearsal, RD, and wedding.  They didn't help with details, plan or attend showers, and since we didn't have b-parties (our grooms did), they didn't have that onus on them either.

    The up side?  We had NO WP drama at all.  None.  My WP didn't attend any of my showers.  I didn't attend showers at which I was a WP member.  It just wasn't the norm back then.  We had no outrageous expectations of our WP at all.  Hence the lack of drama. 

    We also didn't have wedding tv shows, websites, or a plethora of magazines making us feel inadequate as we planned our weddings. My wedding was, for the time, considered pretty elaborate and "swanky".  And I had litlle of the drama or stress that I read about brides experiencing now.

    Etiquette is, IMO, all about making people feel comfortable and welcome.  A person who is aware of others around them and seeks to be inviting and inclusionary, rather than exclusionary and rejecting is using etiquette.

    But social norms have most certainly changed. And that's okay for things to move in new directions and to evolve.  And it's just fine to express one's opinions about wedding issues and decisions.  Clearly, by my post count, I have.  =)

    But to tell people that they're stupid, or call them names~baby, spoiled brat, etc. is just out of line for me.  I'm okay with saying a decision is a bad one.  That doesn't mean the person is a bad person.  And therein lies the difference.

    I used to tell my kids when they were little:  "I don't think you made a good choice this time.  I still love you, and I still think you're a good kid, but that was a poor choice."

    Okay, that was really long.  Sorry.  But I felt compelled to weigh in on a discussion that had spiraled out of control.
    "Trix, it's what they/our parents wanted. Why so judgemental? And why is your wedding date over a year and a half ago? And why do you not have a groom's name? And why have you posted over 12,000 posts? And why do you always say mean things to brides?" palegirl146
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    AutumnFairAutumnFair member
    First Anniversary First Comment
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_moms-maids_disaster?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:357Discussion:4a504e4d-0cad-4382-92b6-7a566d46e5faPost:98c890ac-5e0c-4856-9770-186d935a0ab7">Re: Disaster! Help!</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Disaster! Help! : Why are you even here?? Did you even post about the OP and the whole situation or did you just come here to start trouble. 
    Posted by PeonyPrincesskdd[/QUOTE]

    <div>I looked back, she is just trying to get a fire under you and also spamming, try to ignore her.</div><div>
    </div><div>trix, I think you have the right idea. I think etiquette, social norm, and tradition is so skewed now that people can not really distinguish one vs the other.</div><div>
    </div><div>When my mom was married (1977) she had uneven sides, a cake/punch reception, and the reception was at the church basement, my mom said weddings back then were simple (at least in our area) nothing really huge and complex like it is today. So yeah, I would say weddings in general are getting blow out of proportion causing so much drama for people planning them. </div>
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    filawfilaw member
    5 Love Its First Anniversary First Comment
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_moms-maids_disaster?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:357Discussion:4a504e4d-0cad-4382-92b6-7a566d46e5faPost:a74dd851-8650-4117-a47a-de43b81347fc">Re: Disaster! Help!</a>:
    [QUOTE]That being said for the amount of time I've been here, I have never seen regulars bash matchy matchy dresses or kids in the WP under the age of 2.
    Posted by AutumnFair[/QUOTE]

    Shrug. You've obviously been here longer than I have, but I *have* definetly seen that several times in the shorter time that I've been here.

    I can specifically remember only a short while ago, the idea of a kid under 2 being in the ceremony, criticized, mocked, called "inappopriate", stupid and wrong.

    I have also seen matchy/matchy dresses not neccessarily "bashed" but treated as if "why would you want that?  don't you love your BM's for their individual taste and style", thus setting up the false dichotomy that if a bride wants her bridesmaids to look the same at her wedding, she therefore doesn't love them or appreciate them for who they are.  Not neccessarliy "bashing" the idea, but certainly making a bride feel silly and shallow for wanting it.  That is less of a dominant "bad thing" than the other, but I've seen a lot of it.
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    MrsMack10612MrsMack10612 member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its First Answer First Comment
    edited December 2011
    Thank you Trix.  You've helped to clarify here and expressed better what I was trying to say.

    I do believe that I was overlapping the terms etiquette, tradition and social norms too much.  I may have used the term etiquette in the wrong place because in my thought process Emily Post = etiquette; therefore coming to the conclusion that the listing (expectation) of WP duties = good etiquette.

    In regard to expectations of a bride, my point was simply that if she consults this kind of reference, she will have what she assumes are reasonable expectations of her WP; and offered that as another perspective to the discussion.  I, personally would never expect anything, but some folks do.

    As a previous poster stated - different regions may have different traditions, expecations or social norms as to what is or is not acceptable (paraphrasing).


    I don't think it's fair to bash or name call anyone for their ideas or their opinions.  I tried very hard to keep this a civil discussion and state my case logically.  Perhaps I was not always clear, but I tried.

     

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    Lisa8888Lisa8888
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    kjhowd Hang in there. Don't let them get to you. Nice to hear opposing views other than the group think mentality.
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    trix1223trix1223 member
    5 Love Its Combo Breaker First Comment
    edited December 2011
    filaw:  I am one who thinks that including an infant or toddler in a wedding ceremony is inappropriate.  I have been, I think, careful to say that it's not that I don't think that they should be AT the wedding.  I just don't think that they should be IN the wedding.

    So yes, at least one reg on these boards (me) has commented about children IN a wedding.

    Vows with a baby/toddler are, IMO, inappropriate because they lack the sufficient developmental capabilities to enter into vows.  In addition, if the parents of the child are the biological children of the bride and groom, they're already a family.  They are already mommy and daddy.

    The moment their child entered the world they became mommy and daddy and a family.  The wedding is now about making a husband and wife, not a mommy and daddy.

    If you've read my posts of this subject, I have said to make children members of the WP (if theyre old enough), to take a zillion pictures of them before the wedding, after the wedding.  To have a family dance at the reception and to take a zillion more pictures. 

    But as a vow taking/making part of a ceremony?  Not what a wedding's about, IMO.

    and kjhowd and filaw:  I hope you'll stick around the boards.  I think you make good points. 
    "Trix, it's what they/our parents wanted. Why so judgemental? And why is your wedding date over a year and a half ago? And why do you not have a groom's name? And why have you posted over 12,000 posts? And why do you always say mean things to brides?" palegirl146
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    PeonyPrincesskddPeonyPrincesskdd
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_moms-maids_disaster?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:357Discussion:4a504e4d-0cad-4382-92b6-7a566d46e5faPost:c03365e2-2b92-4347-893d-365ccb672a97">Re: Disaster! Help!</a>:
    [QUOTE]I think the debate here is etiquette vs. social norms.  And yes, social norms HAVE changed.  Some for the better and some for worse.  I actually agree with alot that kjhowd has said. Peony, please substitute "norms" for etiquette.  Because,as just one example:  <strong>etiquette does say that every guest must be acknowledged at a wedding.  That has been done for years with a receiving line.</strong>  But social norms have changed.  Now people do "pew dismissals" from ceremonies, or table visits at receptions to fulfill this etiquette dictate. And just FWIW, peony, I am a person, since you said you don't know any, who does think that a receiving line is a good idea, and I always encourage them.  It's the easiest and most efficient way to make sure that EVERY guest is greeted. I don't think head tables have anything to do with etiquette.  It was the norm back in the day, when I was married, to have a head table.  So we did.  Then someone started thinking about the ramifications of decisions like those, and came up with alternate ideas.  I think that was a good change. WP "duties" may be listed in an etiquette book, but I'm not sure that the duties are about etiquette.  Again, I think they're about social norms.  I'm going to back again to my wedding (1978).  WPs did, quite literally, simply come to the rehearsal, RD, and wedding.  They didn't help with details, plan or attend showers, and since we didn't have b-parties (our grooms did), they didn't have that onus on them either. The up side?  We had NO WP drama at all.  None.  My WP didn't attend any of my showers.  I didn't attend showers at which I was a WP member.  It just wasn't the norm back then.  We had no outrageous expectations of our WP at all.  Hence the lack of drama.  We also didn't have wedding tv shows, websites, or a plethora of magazines making us feel inadequate as we planned our weddings. My wedding was, for the time, considered pretty elaborate and "swanky".  And I had litlle of the drama or stress that I read about brides experiencing now. Etiquette is, IMO, all about making people feel comfortable and welcome.  A person who is aware of others around them and seeks to be inviting and inclusionary, rather than exclusionary and rejecting is using etiquette. But social norms have most certainly changed. And that's okay for things to move in new directions and to evolve.  And it's just fine to express one's opinions about wedding issues and decisions.  Clearly, by my post count, I have.  =) But to tell people that they're stupid, or call them names~baby, spoiled brat, etc. is just out of line for me.  I'm okay with saying a decision is a bad one.  That doesn't mean the person is a bad person.  And therein lies the difference. I used to tell my kids when they were little:  "I don't think you made a good choice this time.  I still love you, and I still think you're a good kid, but that was a poor choice." Okay, that was really long.  Sorry.  But I felt compelled to weigh in on a discussion that had spiraled out of control.
    Posted by trix1223[/QUOTE]

    Yes that is true.  But not everyone will be at the church.  Most of the guests will attend the reception but not the church.  ( I don't know why this is, but is seems to be the case that only close family will be at the church, and all neighbors, co-workers, more distant relatives will be at the reception)

    So the majority of your guests will need to be greeted at the reception which is why they started doing the table rounds at the reception.  Bride and groom walk to each table and greet the guests somewhere between after dinner and when the dancing starts... and also greet as many people during cocktail hour as they can so that they have more time during the rest of the time.
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    PeonyPrincesskddPeonyPrincesskdd
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_moms-maids_disaster?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:357Discussion:4a504e4d-0cad-4382-92b6-7a566d46e5faPost:5ef97414-dbd4-435b-b32f-e9325a5bb64b">Re: Disaster! Help!</a>:
    [QUOTE]Until now I have been a lurker, and I know that I am new here.  I am not trying to start trouble or act as an interloper; but I have seen some of the regular posters berate brides because of their expections of their MOH and other BMs.  <strong>The concept of duties for the MOH & BMs is not new and is not solely generated by the wedding industry. </strong>Below is verbatum from Emily Post's 16th Edition Etiquette book, copyright 1997: "<strong>MAID AND/OR MATRON OF HONOR      The maid or matron of honor's most important duy is to act as a consultant and assistant to the bride.  She should take as many duties and as much responsibility off the shoulders of the bride as possible -- especially on the wedding day.</strong>  She walks just in front of the bride in the procession (unless there are flower girls and ring bearers), she holds the bride's flowers during the ceremony, and she also hands the groom's ring to the bride if it is a double-ring ceremony.  She helps the bride adjust her train and veil when she turns to the leave the church.  If there happens to be a maid and  matron of honor, the maid takes precedence and is in charge of the flowers and ring at the altar.      The maid of honor signs the wedding register as the bride's witness.      The maid of honor stands on the groom's left in the receiving line and sits on his left at the bridal table.  She may or may not make a toast to the couple.  She helps the bride change into her going-away clothe and helps the bride's mother put her wedding dress away.  Although it is not obligatory she usually arranges to give a shower for the bride, with or without the help of the bridesmaids.      She is also in charge of choosing the gift that will be given to the bride from all the bridesmaids together, and collecting the money to pay for it." The first 2 sentences of her information on Bridesmaids is: "Bridesmaids have few specific duties other than forming the procession, and if the bride wishes,<strong> standing in the receiving line.</strong>  The also act as deputy hostesses at the reception." So you all may be correct that bridal showers are not obligatory (as would any other pre-wedding event) and that the BMs are pretty much only required to "show up", you are not wholly correct re: the MOH.  I will not say you are wrong, per se but I think that if Emily Post is confident that MOHs have more responsibility than just "showing up", perhaps you should lay off some of these brides. Again, I am not trying to cause trouble, but I feel for some of these brides who come here to vent and look for advice and get read the riot act over it. Additionally - in some of the posts I've read, perhaps the MOHs and/or BMs have committed certain duties, to which the brides are not getting the communication they require.  I have no expecation of any of my attendants to do more than show up - my MOH, on the otherhand, is actually stressing about what her duties are. And that's my story and I'm sticking to it.  Sorry for the "wall of text".
    Posted by kjhowd[/QUOTE]


    I don't even know how it all blew up about the wedding party dances, receiving lines.. that was not really the issue.. it was mostly about the MOH Responsibilities.. but we already went through that and established that they are not required.  End of story.
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    trix1223trix1223 member
    5 Love Its Combo Breaker First Comment
    edited December 2011
    I have never, ever, ever just shown up at a reception and not at the church.  I know that people do it, and I find it appalling.  IMO, the ceremony is the important part of the day, and people who blow that off are, again IMO, inconsiderate.

    I know that some people hate a gap, and so skip one part or the other in a day that has a several hour gap between ceremony and reception.  Personally, I also detest gaps, and if the wedding has a gap of several hours, would simply decline both ceremony and reception.

    It would never enter my mind to show up at a reception without having attended the ceremony.
    "Trix, it's what they/our parents wanted. Why so judgemental? And why is your wedding date over a year and a half ago? And why do you not have a groom's name? And why have you posted over 12,000 posts? And why do you always say mean things to brides?" palegirl146
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    PeonyPrincesskddPeonyPrincesskdd
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_moms-maids_disaster?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:357Discussion:4a504e4d-0cad-4382-92b6-7a566d46e5faPost:c03365e2-2b92-4347-893d-365ccb672a97">Re: Disaster! Help!</a>:
    [QUOTE]I think the debate here is etiquette vs. social norms.  And yes, social norms HAVE changed.  Some for the better and some for worse.  I actually agree with alot that kjhowd has said. Peony, please substitute "norms" for etiquette.  Because,as just one example:  etiquette does say that every guest must be acknowledged at a wedding.  That has been done for years with a receiving line.  But social norms have changed.  Now people do "pew dismissals" from ceremonies, or table visits at receptions to fulfill this etiquette dictate. And just FWIW, peony, I am a person, since you said you don't know any, who does think that a receiving line is a good idea, and I always encourage them.  It's the easiest and most efficient way to make sure that EVERY guest is greeted. I don't think head tables have anything to do with etiquette.  It was the norm back in the day, when I was married, to have a head table.  So we did.  Then someone started thinking about the ramifications of decisions like those, and came up with alternate ideas.  I think that was a good change. WP "duties" may be listed in an etiquette book, but I'm not sure that the duties are about etiquette.  Again, I think they're about social norms.  I'm going to back again to my wedding (1978).  WPs did, quite literally, simply come to the rehearsal, RD, and wedding. <strong> They didn't help with details, plan or attend showers, and since we didn't have b-parties (our grooms did), they didn't have that onus on them either. The up side?  We had NO WP drama at all.  None.  My WP didn't attend any of my showers.  I didn't attend showers at which I was a WP member.  It just wasn't the norm back then.  We had no outrageous expectations of our WP at all.  </strong>Hence the lack of drama.  We also didn't have wedding tv shows, websites, or a plethora of magazines making us feel inadequate as we planned our weddings. My wedding was, for the time, considered pretty elaborate and "swanky".  And I had litlle of the drama or stress that I read about brides experiencing now. Etiquette is, IMO, all about making people feel comfortable and welcome.  A person who is aware of others around them and seeks to be inviting and inclusionary, rather than exclusionary and rejecting is using etiquette. But social norms have most certainly changed. And that's okay for things to move in new directions and to evolve.  And it's just fine to express one's opinions about wedding issues and decisions.  Clearly, by my post count, I have.  =) But to tell people that they're stupid, or call them names~baby, spoiled brat, etc. is just out of line for me.  I'm okay with saying a decision is a bad one.  That doesn't mean the person is a bad person.  And therein lies the difference. I used to tell my kids when they were little:  "I don't think you made a good choice this time.  I still love you, and I still think you're a good kid, but that was a poor choice." Okay, that was really long.  Sorry.  But I felt compelled to weigh in on a discussion that had spiraled out of control.
    Posted by trix1223[/QUOTE]

    No it's not too long and I think your post was awesome.  It really proves that they are no set rules for wedding party members and you are talking back in 1978.  "They didn't help with details, plan or attend showers.. No WP Drama, No outrageous expectations of our wedding party at all"..

    Now brides want to start drama and kick out wedding party members for not coming to their shower, or not coming over the stuff envelopes, etc.  I think it's crazy how some of today's brides think about the duties and expectations of the WP and want to justify it by saying "It's in the books, Ettiquette says you are required to take on as many duties as possible". 

    There is just too much drama with WP's and bride's saying, "She's supposed to be my best BM (because she is going to throw me a shower) and she didn't comment on my pictures etc. 

    Or "My sister is a broke college student so I can't choose her as MOH, I will choose my best friend because she threw a nice shower for our mutual friend and that means she will do the same for me"... and then bride doesn't get the shower she thought she was getting so she demotes her MOH for a new one that she thinks will throw her a shower instead.. just crazy things we see on here.
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    PeonyPrincesskddPeonyPrincesskdd
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    And I'm not saying that Kjhowd lives up to the expecations, but the fact that out there, a lot of brides do.  They want to justify their demands and requirements based on some "outdated, someone's opinion" piece of literature
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