Destination Wedding Etiquette

mrs4everhart

mobkaz said:

Maggie0829 said:

I agree that legal issues between two people is their business, HOWEVER, when you start involving other people and their money (in regards to travel expenses and such) I feel that your legal marital status should be revealed because that may be a determinant in whether or not those individuals that you are inviting to your "wedding day" decide to come.  I know that if I was invited to a DW, shelled a a shit ton of money to go and watch two people I care about marry each other (and in my mind that means legally along with ceremonially) and then come to find out that what I just witnessed and spent my hard earned money attending was basically a show, I would be extremely pissed off.

Look, I know that none of us will be able to change your mind about your plans, but just know that this could back fire on you.  You may lose friends not because you had multiple weddings but because you lied to them.  People tend to be a bit more forgiving about things if they know everything up front. 

Exactly.  If you are treating the legal portion in such a cavalier way, it makes no sense to go out of your way to deceive your guests.  What does one have to do with the other? I think the worst or most illogical argument is saying that the friends would not care one way or another.  I personally don't know if the ones that don't know would or wouldn't. I do know the friends and family that do know don't care. Then why not offer full disclosure so guests can make an informed decision?  To have so little genuine investment in these so called friendships that you prefer to risk losing them for the sake of a charade is incredulous, and sad. I'm sure you can understand by now we obviously don't consider our wedding a charade. We don't see this as much of a gamble. It's much more of a "sure thing" and will go smoothly. 

PrettyGirlLost

STBMrsEverhart said:

JellyBean52513 said:

We only care so much here because this is a board about Etiquette, and what you are doing breaks many Etiquette rules. IDGAF if you feel this plan is 150% awesome, those of who adhere to Etiquette know that it sucks. Frankly, IDGAF what you don't GAF about. Many of you are downright dicks to people in similar situations and I've said it a million times (it feels like that many anyway): I'm not concerned with y'all's opinion of what we're doing. I'm not going to ever be convinced to scrap our plans by the silly "what ifs" thrown around like I'm living to appease every hypothetical that jumps out of the bushes! I AM however hoping a lurker or ten reads this mess and says, yea, wait a second, there's nothing wrong with making the best out of our situation, we're totally doing this wedding how it works best, Miss Manners be damned!

Yeah but this is the Etiquette board, where we try to give advice based on correct etiquette.  So if you don't give a fuck about etiquette in regards to this topic in particular, then don't post over here and limit your posts to the Destination Wedding Board.

ETA: Look, we all know that you don't care about DW and PPD etiquette, which is fine.  But ppl are going to keep getting annoyed or attempt to correct what you write for the sake of the lurkers.  The other etiquette related topics you have responded to have been just fine.

Maggie0829

STBMrsEverhart said:

mobkaz said:

Maggie0829 said:

I agree that legal issues between two people is their business, HOWEVER, when you start involving other people and their money (in regards to travel expenses and such) I feel that your legal marital status should be revealed because that may be a determinant in whether or not those individuals that you are inviting to your "wedding day" decide to come.  I know that if I was invited to a DW, shelled a a shit ton of money to go and watch two people I care about marry each other (and in my mind that means legally along with ceremonially) and then come to find out that what I just witnessed and spent my hard earned money attending was basically a show, I would be extremely pissed off.

Look, I know that none of us will be able to change your mind about your plans, but just know that this could back fire on you.  You may lose friends not because you had multiple weddings but because you lied to them.  People tend to be a bit more forgiving about things if they know everything up front. 

Exactly.  If you are treating the legal portion in such a cavalier way, it makes no sense to go out of your way to deceive your guests.  What does one have to do with the other? I think the worst or most illogical argument is saying that the friends would not care one way or another.  I personally don't know if the ones that don't know would or wouldn't. I do know the friends and family that do know don't care. Then why not offer full disclosure so guests can make an informed decision?  To have so little genuine investment in these so called friendships that you prefer to risk losing them for the sake of a charade is incredulous, and sad. I'm sure you can understand by now we obviously don't consider our wedding a charade. We don't see this as much of a gamble. It's much more of a "sure thing" and will go smoothly. 

Aren't you concerned at all about the guests in the red bolded portion?  It is great that one's that do know don't care.  Fabulous.  I am sure they will have a great time at your party in Mexico.  But what about the one's that you are lying to?  Why not just tell them and then let them decide if it is worth spending money and using vacation time to go to your damn "wedding".  I think this where people are getting annoyed.  If what you are doing seems perfectly acceptable to you then why are you hiding the fact that you are already married from people?

mrs4everhart

PrettyGirlLost said:

STBMrsEverhart said:

JellyBean52513 said:

We only care so much here because this is a board about Etiquette, and what you are doing breaks many Etiquette rules. IDGAF if you feel this plan is 150% awesome, those of who adhere to Etiquette know that it sucks. Frankly, IDGAF what you don't GAF about. Many of you are downright dicks to people in similar situations and I've said it a million times (it feels like that many anyway): I'm not concerned with y'all's opinion of what we're doing. I'm not going to ever be convinced to scrap our plans by the silly "what ifs" thrown around like I'm living to appease every hypothetical that jumps out of the bushes! I AM however hoping a lurker or ten reads this mess and says, yea, wait a second, there's nothing wrong with making the best out of our situation, we're totally doing this wedding how it works best, Miss Manners be damned!

Yeah but this is the Etiquette board, where we try to give advice based on correct etiquette.  So if you don't give a fuck about etiquette in regards to this topic in particular, then don't post over here and limit your posts to the Destination Wedding Board. That's the thing, I can't stop offering a contrasting POV so others reading can realize just because they're getting certain advice here doesn't mean it's solid, imo. TK is truthfully the only place online or elsewhere I ever see this type of vitriol over something so insignificant. Truly, as times change I hope to see the etiquette on this subject matter change completely. That's never going to happen if people remain silent.

ETA: Look, we all know that you don't care about DW and PPD etiquette, which is fine.  But ppl are going to keep getting annoyed or attempt to correct what you write for the sake of the lurkers.  As is their right. The only person I've told to stop engaging me is the twit who went out of her way to proclaim she'll no longer be engaging me all to continue engaging AND posting stupid graphics and gifs. It's natural, it's hard to quit me. The other etiquette related topics you have responded to have been just fine. I'm not a total heathen ;-)

jneen101

Why would I give a couple who has already lived together for a year a set of plates? I would rather give the couple something they can use. Like money.

Then don't give plates?  If people want to give you money, they will give you money.  Have you ever had to be told by someone"I would like money" and then you realized, oh yeah money is a great gift?  Or were you able to come to the conclusion on your own?  No one is forcing anyone to give plates.

mrs4everhart

Maggie0829 said:

STBMrsEverhart said:

mobkaz said:

Maggie0829 said:

I agree that legal issues between two people is their business, HOWEVER, when you start involving other people and their money (in regards to travel expenses and such) I feel that your legal marital status should be revealed because that may be a determinant in whether or not those individuals that you are inviting to your "wedding day" decide to come.  I know that if I was invited to a DW, shelled a a shit ton of money to go and watch two people I care about marry each other (and in my mind that means legally along with ceremonially) and then come to find out that what I just witnessed and spent my hard earned money attending was basically a show, I would be extremely pissed off.

Look, I know that none of us will be able to change your mind about your plans, but just know that this could back fire on you.  You may lose friends not because you had multiple weddings but because you lied to them.  People tend to be a bit more forgiving about things if they know everything up front. 

Exactly.  If you are treating the legal portion in such a cavalier way, it makes no sense to go out of your way to deceive your guests.  What does one have to do with the other? I think the worst or most illogical argument is saying that the friends would not care one way or another.  I personally don't know if the ones that don't know would or wouldn't. I do know the friends and family that do know don't care. Then why not offer full disclosure so guests can make an informed decision?  To have so little genuine investment in these so called friendships that you prefer to risk losing them for the sake of a charade is incredulous, and sad. I'm sure you can understand by now we obviously don't consider our wedding a charade. We don't see this as much of a gamble. It's much more of a "sure thing" and will go smoothly. 

Aren't you concerned at all about the guests in the red bolded portion?  It is great that one's that do know don't care.  Fabulous.  I am sure they will have a great time at your party in Mexico.  But what about the one's that you are lying to?  Why not just tell them and then let them decide if it is worth spending money and using vacation time to go to your damn "wedding".  I think this where people are getting annoyed.  If what you are doing seems perfectly acceptable to you then why are you hiding the fact that you are already married from people?

In order to answer that I feel like I'm about to start rehashing a ton of old stuff. If I could find the thread at this point I'd copy and paste directly from it. In short, no, we're not. I can't be more sincere when I say, for us, the licensing ahead of time was just a means to an end involving health insurance and simply does not define our relationship or marital status. How the state views us and how we view us are two entirely separate things. In our view our wedding in September IS our (one and only) wedding, therefore there is no need to discuss the previous licensing with anyone. It makes no sense to attach a long, drawn out story to the facts of our wedding. As far as we are concerned our wedding is scheduled for this September. That's when we believe it should be for everyone else involved too. If we were carrying on as married in some way behind the backs of those we love and created two distinct realities, I could see people feeling deceived if they were to find out (which I still have no idea how that would happen, but that's a different discussion thoroughly played out). But the fact that we ourselves don't recognize our legal status in any way, shape or form creates a very easy to understand progression: A+B got engaged. A+B are getting married in September 2014. (Post September) A+B are now married. Every subsequent September A+B celebrate their anniversary. Easy peasy! There's just no need to cause confusion for anyone.

Maggie0829

STBMrsEverhart said:

Maggie0829 said:

Aren't you concerned at all about the guests in the red bolded portion?  It is great that one's that do know don't care.  Fabulous.  I am sure they will have a great time at your party in Mexico.  But what about the one's that you are lying to?  Why not just tell them and then let them decide if it is worth spending money and using vacation time to go to your damn "wedding".  I think this where people are getting annoyed.  If what you are doing seems perfectly acceptable to you then why are you hiding the fact that you are already married from people?

In order to answer that I feel like I'm about to start rehashing a ton of old stuff. If I could find the thread at this point I'd copy and paste directly from it. In short, no, we're not. I can't be more sincere when I say, for us, the licensing ahead of time was just a means to an end involving health insurance and simply does not define our relationship or marital status. How the state views us and how we view us are two entirely separate things. In our view our wedding in September IS our (one and only) wedding, therefore there is no need to discuss the previous licensing with anyone. It makes no sense to attach a long, drawn out story to the facts of our wedding. As far as we are concerned our wedding is scheduled for this September. That's when we believe it should be for everyone else involved too. If we were carrying on as married in some way behind the backs of those we love and created two distinct realities, I could see people feeling deceived if they were to find out (which I still have no idea how that would happen, but that's a different discussion thoroughly played out). But the fact that we ourselves don't recognize our legal status in any way, shape or form creates a very easy to understand progression: A+B got engaged. A+B are getting married in September 2014. (Post September) A+B are now married. Every subsequent September A+B celebrate their anniversary. Easy peasy! There's just no need to cause confusion for anyone.

But the thing that people are trying to get across to you is that you and your H may feel that way but others may not.  And those others could be very upset in knowing/finding out that they witnessed, what they feel, is a fake show.

Also, you are carrying on as married behind their backs.  Because like it or not you are legally wed. Period.  There is no way around that.  And some people see that having the legal documents stating that you are husband and wife is just as binding as you seeing the ceremony part as making you truly husband and wife.  So yes, you are deceiving them.

And yes, you are recognizing your legal status every time your insurance is being used.  So don't say that you aren't recognizing your legal status.  You got married because of insurance reasons and the reason you are now able to have the same insurance (or whatever your case may be because I can't fully remember) is because you are husband and wife and are receiving that benefit.  So how you can continue thinking that you aren't married is beyond me because you are in fact receiving a marital benefit.

And the last bolded statement is a horrible excuse when it comes to not telling people that you are already married.  I am sorry but again, if what you are planning is so not a big deal in your eyes then why can't you just tell people that A) we are already married legally due to health reasons and but we want to have a moment so that friends and family can witness us committing our lives to each other ceremonially because only in front of friends and family can we truly ever feel 100% married.

And as to how your little secret may get out.  Well many times it is the person or persons who are lying who accidentally lets it slip.   How do you know that none of the people that know of your real marital status won't accidentally tell a guest who doesn't know?  How do you know that at your "wedding" in Mexico that after a few cocktails old Aunt Barb won't start gabbing to your friends Rick and Sue and say something like "oh wasn't that ceremony beautiful?!  I am so happy that they planned this wonderful trip so that we could celebrate the fact that they got married on X date in December."

mrs4everhart

Maggie0829 said:

STBMrsEverhart said:

Maggie0829 said:

Aren't you concerned at all about the guests in the red bolded portion?  It is great that one's that do know don't care.  Fabulous.  I am sure they will have a great time at your party in Mexico.  But what about the one's that you are lying to?  Why not just tell them and then let them decide if it is worth spending money and using vacation time to go to your damn "wedding".  I think this where people are getting annoyed.  If what you are doing seems perfectly acceptable to you then why are you hiding the fact that you are already married from people?

In order to answer that I feel like I'm about to start rehashing a ton of old stuff. If I could find the thread at this point I'd copy and paste directly from it. In short, no, we're not. I can't be more sincere when I say, for us, the licensing ahead of time was just a means to an end involving health insurance and simply does not define our relationship or marital status. How the state views us and how we view us are two entirely separate things. In our view our wedding in September IS our (one and only) wedding, therefore there is no need to discuss the previous licensing with anyone. It makes no sense to attach a long, drawn out story to the facts of our wedding. As far as we are concerned our wedding is scheduled for this September. That's when we believe it should be for everyone else involved too. If we were carrying on as married in some way behind the backs of those we love and created two distinct realities, I could see people feeling deceived if they were to find out (which I still have no idea how that would happen, but that's a different discussion thoroughly played out). But the fact that we ourselves don't recognize our legal status in any way, shape or form creates a very easy to understand progression: A+B got engaged. A+B are getting married in September 2014. (Post September) A+B are now married. Every subsequent September A+B celebrate their anniversary. Easy peasy! There's just no need to cause confusion for anyone.

But the thing that people are trying to get across to you is that you and your H may feel that way but others may not.  And those others could be very upset in knowing/finding out that they witnessed, what they feel, is a fake show. I've never misunderstood what people have been trying to convey. But since we simply disagree we have proceeded in our planning unchanged. 

Also, you are carrying on as married behind their backs.  Because like it or not you are legally wed. Period.  There is no way around that.  And some people see that having the legal documents stating that you are husband and wife is just as binding as you seeing the ceremony part as making you truly husband and wife.  So yes, you are deceiving them. I guess in the long run it's for the best they'll not be the wiser then.

And yes, you are recognizing your legal status every time your insurance is being used.  So don't say that you aren't recognizing your legal status.  You got married because of insurance reasons and the reason you are now able to have the same insurance (or whatever your case may be because I can't fully remember) is because you are husband and wife and are receiving that benefit.  So how you can continue thinking that you aren't married is beyond me because you are in fact receiving a marital benefit. Sharing health insurance with him makes me feel no more or no less married to him than owning property with him, being each other's beneficiaries on other insurance policies or being the other's medical power of attorney, all of which have been in place for years. Paperwork, benefits and sharing utilities doesn't conjure any happy, romantic feelings for us.

And the last bolded statement is a horrible excuse when it comes to not telling people that you are already married.  I am sorry but again, if what you are planning is so not a big deal in your eyes then why can't you just tell people that A) we are already married legally due to health reasons and but we want to have a moment so that friends and family can witness us committing our lives to each other ceremonially because only in front of friends and family can we truly ever feel 100% married. I kind of feel I've answered this, repeatedly. 

And as to how your little secret may get out.  Well many times it is the person or persons who are lying who accidentally lets it slip.   How do you know that none of the people that know of your real marital status won't accidentally tell a guest who doesn't know?  How do you know that at your "wedding" in Mexico that after a few cocktails old Aunt Barb won't start gabbing to your friends Rick and Sue and say something like "oh wasn't that ceremony beautiful?!  I am so happy that they planned this wonderful trip so that we could celebrate the fact that they got married on X date in December." If that's what we have to worry about, we have nothing to worry about at all. Those who know about our situation know our feelings on this subject and would never bring it up. I have more faith than that. If someone gets completely hammered and brings it up, which is a real long shot, I imagine we'd both confirm it, shrug it off and move on. How people choose to react is their prerogative but I really don't see any relationships imploding over this. 

ashleyep

jneen101 said:

Why would I give a couple who has already lived together for a year a set of plates? I would rather give the couple something they can use. Like money.

Then don't give plates?  If people want to give you money, they will give you money.  Have you ever had to be told by someone"I would like money" and then you realized, oh yeah money is a great gift?  Or were you able to come to the conclusion on your own?  No one is forcing anyone to give plates.

Also, my plates are crap. I bought them right after I graduated college. I don't have a full set, they're really cheap, I've been avoiding getting new ones because I knew I could register for them.

STBMrsEverhart - "we don't feel married" is such bullshit. You don't think we all would like to get on our spouse's insurance? My company doesn't charge a dime, even for spouses and family. You don't think I'd like to put him on mine so we can save the money he spends on insurance each month? You don't think I wouldn't like to file taxes jointly, or have the legal benefits of being married already? I made a decision to wait until I could pledge my commitment in front of my friends and family to do that. You chose not to wait, you are already married.

What does "we don't consider ourselves married" and "we don't carry on as married" even mean? Are you not living together? Not having sex? The days where moving in with your new spouse and conjugating your marriage are LONGGG gone. These days, the only real difference for most people IS that piece of paper.

zitiqueen

mimiphin said:

OH HELL NO!!!!! Don't go around giving "the rest of canada" a bad name
I have heard of Manitoba having Stag and Doe parties, (which I have my suspensions about why they happen there) never in Ontario, and NEVER anywhere else.
A stag and doe by definition is a Fund-raiser for the wedding, if you are having a DW the amount of money needed for the B&G is about the same as everyone else who is going (Flights, hotel, meals, ect.) So taking that in to mind any money raised from such an event should be split between all those going to the wedding.

I stood up in a wedding in Amherstburg and the bride and groom had a stag and doe party. So now you've heard of a stag and doe party in Ontario.

mrs4everhart

ashleyep said:

jneen101 said:

Why would I give a couple who has already lived together for a year a set of plates? I would rather give the couple something they can use. Like money.

Then don't give plates?  If people want to give you money, they will give you money.  Have you ever had to be told by someone"I would like money" and then you realized, oh yeah money is a great gift?  Or were you able to come to the conclusion on your own?  No one is forcing anyone to give plates.

Also, my plates are crap. I bought them right after I graduated college. I don't have a full set, they're really cheap, I've been avoiding getting new ones because I knew I could register for them.

STBMrsEverhart - "we don't feel married" is such bullshit. Sorry you think that way. Bummer for you I guess. You don't think we all would like to get on our spouse's insurance? My company doesn't charge a dime, even for spouses and family. You don't think I'd like to put him on mine so we can save the money he spends on insurance each month? You don't think I wouldn't like to file taxes jointly, or have the legal benefits of being married already? I made a decision to wait until I could pledge my commitment in front of my friends and family to do that. You chose not to wait, you are already married. We all have decisions to make in life. We made the one that worked best for us. That you deny yourself whatever it is you covet about marriage in order to wait for some time that works best for you is your decision to make. Much like our doing what we thought was best for us was ours. We have no regrets. My hope for you is the same.

What does "we don't consider ourselves married" and "we don't carry on as married" even mean? The best way for me to describe this to someone who professes to not get it is this: it's not even a thing to us. We don't think about it, celebrate it, talk about it. It simply doesn't exist to us. We don't have separate language we use with one group (the group who knows) versus anyone else. When we think of the other it is as my/his fiance(e). When we speak of each other it is as my/his fiance(e). When we introduce the other it is as my/his fiancé(e). It is so much so not in existence for us the other day I filled out my paperwork to apply for my passport. There's a section that asks if you've ever been married/divorced/widowed and if so to list the contact info of the last person you were married to. Without skipping a beat I filled out all of my ex's info. It was only once I started filling out my FI's that the light bulb went on. I dropped mine in the shredder, chuckled and moved on. Are you not living together? Not having sex? The days where moving in with your new spouse and conjugating your marriage are LONGGG gone. These days, the only real difference for most people IS that piece of paper. For some people that is true. Not all of us. The living together/sex thing really never played in as a factor one way or the other. The reason our ceremony in September is so important to us is because yes, we've already fulfilled everything else on the long legal checklist (prior even to filling out a marriage license). So for us, if not standing up in front of friends and relatives professing our love and commitment in a location of our choosing, there'd pretty much be no point. We could have claimed common-law a long while back and had legally put our ducks in a row to protect the other in case of emergency many years ago too. Some people choose to only make their partner their beneficiary or power of attorney or own property such as a home or cars once they are legally wed. Some of us do not. That's another one of those decisions I was referring to.  If that's someone else's outlook, that's their business. We don't have to agree and do the same. 

MobKaz

ashleyep said:

jneen101 said:

Why would I give a couple who has already lived together for a year a set of plates? I would rather give the couple something they can use. Like money.

Then don't give plates?  If people want to give you money, they will give you money.  Have you ever had to be told by someone"I would like money" and then you realized, oh yeah money is a great gift?  Or were you able to come to the conclusion on your own?  No one is forcing anyone to give plates.

Also, my plates are crap. I bought them right after I graduated college. I don't have a full set, they're really cheap, I've been avoiding getting new ones because I knew I could register for them.

STBMrsEverhart - "we don't feel married" is such bullshit. You don't think we all would like to get on our spouse's insurance? My company doesn't charge a dime, even for spouses and family. You don't think I'd like to put him on mine so we can save the money he spends on insurance each month? You don't think I wouldn't like to file taxes jointly, or have the legal benefits of being married already? I made a decision to wait until I could pledge my commitment in front of my friends and family to do that. You chose not to wait, you are already married.

What does "we don't consider ourselves married" and "we don't carry on as married" even mean? Are you not living together? Not having sex? The days where moving in with your new spouse and conjugating your marriage are LONGGG gone. These days, the only real difference for most people IS that piece of paper.

Ashley, you live in a world of integrity.  Others do not.  

mrs4everhart

mobkaz said:

ashleyep said:

jneen101 said:

Why would I give a couple who has already lived together for a year a set of plates? I would rather give the couple something they can use. Like money.

Then don't give plates?  If people want to give you money, they will give you money.  Have you ever had to be told by someone"I would like money" and then you realized, oh yeah money is a great gift?  Or were you able to come to the conclusion on your own?  No one is forcing anyone to give plates.

Also, my plates are crap. I bought them right after I graduated college. I don't have a full set, they're really cheap, I've been avoiding getting new ones because I knew I could register for them.

STBMrsEverhart - "we don't feel married" is such bullshit. You don't think we all would like to get on our spouse's insurance? My company doesn't charge a dime, even for spouses and family. You don't think I'd like to put him on mine so we can save the money he spends on insurance each month? You don't think I wouldn't like to file taxes jointly, or have the legal benefits of being married already? I made a decision to wait until I could pledge my commitment in front of my friends and family to do that. You chose not to wait, you are already married.

What does "we don't consider ourselves married" and "we don't carry on as married" even mean? Are you not living together? Not having sex? The days where moving in with your new spouse and conjugating your marriage are LONGGG gone. These days, the only real difference for most people IS that piece of paper.

Ashley, you live in a world of integrity.  Others do not.  

Ha ha ha ha ha ha! @mobkaz, the original paragon of virtue. How nice. 

crunchymamaof2

@STBMrsEverhart But one's feelings on a subject doesn't change the facts. The fact is you are married. Whether you want to consider yourselves as such or not, it doesn't change the facts. How people would react to finding out this info doesn't seem to concern you which is why I'm still banging my head every time I read your reasoning behind not telling people. Why not just tell them then?? You keep back peddling and making arguments that make no sense really.

You feel its your prerogative to not consider yourselves "married" until September. And you are debating us HARD on why it's okay (because it's how YOU feel). Some of your guests will feel differently. Enough so that they wouldn't want to spend thousands of dollars to attend your event when they (and our government) know and feel you are already married. Everyone attends a wedding to support the bride and groom. I am confident in saying that many, if not most, also attend in order to witness the actual moment they become husband and wife. Whether or not you consider yourselves as such is irrelevant to them- by law you ARE husband and wife. You've stated repeatedly that those who wouldn't attend due to this are people you wouldn't want in your life anyway. So why not spare them all that money? Isn't that their right?

 

 ETA: Say I personally felt cheating was okay. Due to cheating I aced my finals. My family and friends throw me a party to celebrate doing so well in school. I don't tell them that I cheated because I don't see anything wrong with it and it's irrelevant, even though some of them will probably be upset and cancel my party or not come. It's none of their business right? Wrong. Cheating is wrong and can be punishable by law in some cases. People feeling differently doesn't change those facts. Signing the legal paperwork is how two people become married in this country and when that is done that is considered the person's wedding. People are free to feel differently but it doesn't change the facts.

MobKaz

acove2006 said:

@STBMrsEverhart But one's feelings on a subject doesn't change the facts. The fact is you are married. Whether you want to consider yourselves as such or not, it doesn't change the facts. How people would react to finding out this info doesn't seem to concern you which is why I'm still banging my head every time I read your reasoning behind not telling people. Why not just tell them then?? You keep back peddling and making arguments that make no sense really.

You feel its your prerogative to not consider yourselves "married" until September. And you are debating us HARD on why it's okay (because it's how YOU feel). Some of your guests will feel differently. Enough so that they wouldn't want to spend thousands of dollars to attend your event when they (and our government) know and feel you are already married. Everyone attends a wedding to support the bride and groom. I am confident in saying that many, if not most, also attend in order to witness the actual moment they become husband and wife. Whether or not you consider yourselves as such is irrelevant to them- by law you ARE husband and wife. You've stated repeatedly that those who wouldn't attend due to this are people you wouldn't want in your life anyway. So why not spare them all that money? Isn't that their right?

 

 ETA: Say I personally felt cheating was okay. Due to cheating I aced my finals. My family and friends throw me a party to celebrate doing so well in school. I don't tell them that I cheated because I don't see anything wrong with it and it's irrelevant, even though some of them will probably be upset and cancel my party or not come. It's none of their business right? Wrong. Cheating is wrong and can be punishable by law in some cases. People feeling differently doesn't change those facts. Signing the legal paperwork is how two people become married in this country and when that is done that is considered the person's wedding. People are free to feel differently but it doesn't change the facts.

To the first bolded......you give too much credit to consider her line of thought "reasoning".

There is a legacy of lying in this family.  Parents are aware of the deceit and are equally comfortable keeping this lie from family and friends.

Let's say there was a hostage situation prior to Farce Day.  In good faith, the hostage taker will allow all married women to leave the building.  Would such a person now admit to being married, or "stay true to who she is" and remain behind with all the other single ladies?

**This is actually a trick question.  We know how easily it is to lie....such a conundrum would probably be her nirvana as any answer would require some level of lying.

ETA........I will add, that I think it is more than time to let this thread RIP.  This argument is perpetuated on Destination Weddings on a daily basis.  We have to realize there are shady and self centered people who think nothing of deceiving their "nearest and dearest".  This issue goes way beyond etiquette.

Kauris

@STBMrsEverart, how are you filing your taxes this year? Married? Or single?

mrs4everhart

acove2006 said:

@STBMrsEverhart But one's feelings on a subject doesn't change the facts. The fact is you are married. Whether you want to consider yourselves as such or not, it doesn't change the facts. How people would react to finding out this info doesn't seem to concern you which is why I'm still banging my head every time I read your reasoning behind not telling people. Why not just tell them then?? You keep back peddling and making arguments that make no sense really. Not liking my answer or disagreeing with it doesn't qualify it as backpedaling. My answers and reasons have remained constant. We're not telling people because it would create questions and conversations we're simply not interested in entertaining. This is how we want it, this is how it's going to be. 

You feel its your prerogative to not consider yourselves "married" until September. And you are debating us HARD on why it's okay (because it's how YOU feel). Some of your guests will feel differently. They're never going to get the chance to feel any differently than they do now. Because they're not going to know. Enough so that they wouldn't want to spend thousands of dollars to attend your event when they (and our government) know and feel you are already married. This is your presumption not fact. Everyone attends a wedding to support the bride and groom. I am confident in saying that many, if not most, also attend in order to witness the actual moment they become husband and wife. As I've mentioned many times, everyone attending our DW is attending bc they want to go on a sick vacation. We've been as established couple a very long time. Just seeing us marry I doubt is the big get for anyone. Whether or not you consider yourselves as such is irrelevant to them- by law you ARE husband and wife. You've stated repeatedly that those who wouldn't attend due to this are people you wouldn't want in your life anyway. So why not spare them all that money? Isn't that their right?

 

 ETA: Say I personally felt cheating was okay. Due to cheating I aced my finals. My family and friends throw me a party to celebrate doing so well in school. I don't tell them that I cheated because I don't see anything wrong with it and it's irrelevant, even though some of them will probably be upset and cancel my party or not come. It's none of their business right? Wrong. Cheating is wrong and can be punishable by law in some cases. People feeling differently doesn't change those facts. Signing the legal paperwork is how two people become married in this country and when that is done that is considered the person's wedding. Then all people should quit with the white dresses, church ceremonies and knock off wasting so much time for everyone else. They should just sign the papers and be married. People are free to feel differently but it doesn't change the facts. 

mrs4everhart

mobkaz said:

acove2006 said:

@STBMrsEverhart But one's feelings on a subject doesn't change the facts. The fact is you are married. Whether you want to consider yourselves as such or not, it doesn't change the facts. How people would react to finding out this info doesn't seem to concern you which is why I'm still banging my head every time I read your reasoning behind not telling people. Why not just tell them then?? You keep back peddling and making arguments that make no sense really.

You feel its your prerogative to not consider yourselves "married" until September. And you are debating us HARD on why it's okay (because it's how YOU feel). Some of your guests will feel differently. Enough so that they wouldn't want to spend thousands of dollars to attend your event when they (and our government) know and feel you are already married. Everyone attends a wedding to support the bride and groom. I am confident in saying that many, if not most, also attend in order to witness the actual moment they become husband and wife. Whether or not you consider yourselves as such is irrelevant to them- by law you ARE husband and wife. You've stated repeatedly that those who wouldn't attend due to this are people you wouldn't want in your life anyway. So why not spare them all that money? Isn't that their right?

 

 ETA: Say I personally felt cheating was okay. Due to cheating I aced my finals. My family and friends throw me a party to celebrate doing so well in school. I don't tell them that I cheated because I don't see anything wrong with it and it's irrelevant, even though some of them will probably be upset and cancel my party or not come. It's none of their business right? Wrong. Cheating is wrong and can be punishable by law in some cases. People feeling differently doesn't change those facts. Signing the legal paperwork is how two people become married in this country and when that is done that is considered the person's wedding. People are free to feel differently but it doesn't change the facts.

To the first bolded......you give too much credit to consider her line of thought "reasoning".

There is a legacy of lying in this family.  Parents are aware of the deceit and are equally comfortable keeping this lie from family and friends. Aware? It was in part my Mom's idea! She, like us, doesn't see the big deal about a piece of paper and thinks it's more important my FI has access to great healthcare than to sign a license on the same day as the ceremony. My Dad just doesn't care one way or the other, or he hasn't said anything. I haven't asked. If he's side eyeing it, he can side eye it in paradise, most likely from a golf course.

Let's say there was a hostage situation prior to Farce Day.  In good faith, the hostage taker will allow all married women to leave the building.  Would such a person now admit to being married, or "stay true to who she is" and remain behind with all the other single ladies? This is stupid. Even for you. 

**This is actually a trick question.  We know how easily it is to lie....such a conundrum would probably be her nirvana as any answer would require some level of lying. Yes, because I choose not to discuss my legal marital status with everyone on my potential guest list, I have jumped head first down the rabbit hole and my whole existence now revolves around finding ways to lie, whenever and however I can. Often. Flagrantly with reckless abandon! Now that my moral compass is all flummoxed, I guess I can just do whatever the hell I want. Wow, not sharing that insignificant tidbit of legal minutiae was extremely freeing! Pardon, I have babies to kick and lies to formulate! Muahahahhah!!!!!!

ETA........I will add, that I think it is more than time to let this thread RIP.  This argument is perpetuated on Destination Weddings on a daily basis.  We have to realize there are shady and self centered people who think nothing of deceiving their "nearest and dearest".  This issue goes way beyond etiquette. 

mrs4everhart

kasmith1 said:

@STBMrsEverart, how are you filing your taxes this year? Married? Or single?

Married, filing separately. Single if I could. Being legally married is not a tax benefit in our case. This will be the case for many years to come. But maybe we can furnish our potential guest list with copies of our tax returns to announce the big secret?! More uninteresting legal crap for them to not need to know.......

Jells2dot0

I haven't been following this mess the last few days, but an interesting thing that I have certainly noticed is that 99% of the posters think the guests should know the truth and most of that 99% would be slightly miffed (or more) if they found out that the wedding was not an actual legal ceremony and that the couple has been legally husband and wife for several months. So, to me, that correlates to most of the actual guests being in some way upset if they found out about the truth about the couple!! I've already said it once, but I really hope that this does not turn into a giant shitstorm when the truth comes out because there is a strong chance that it will at some point down the road. Just because STB doesn't want to think her guests would be offended doesn't mean that they won't be! This board is a large sampling of people from many different backgrounds and all signs point to people being offended.

dolewhipper

I agree with @jells2dot0 and have been watching it too. I want to know, what about the people who marry in a courthouse/elope? I feel like she's really degrading those. My uncle eloped, and when we all found out he got married, my dad instantly want to throw him a party in honor of their marriage. While it was all just another reason for the family to get together and celebrate, I think this is okay in the etiquette book.  (Please tell me if it wasn't. My uncle had no intention of having a get together.)

Jells2dot0

shannonmaya said:

I agree with @jells2dot0 and have been watching it too. I want to know, what about the people who marry in a courthouse/elope? I feel like she's really degrading those. My uncle eloped, and when we all found out he got married, my dad instantly want to throw him a party in honor of their marriage. While it was all just another reason for the family to get together and celebrate, I think this is okay in the etiquette book.  (Please tell me if it wasn't. My uncle had no intention of having a get together.)

I eloped and did not have a party afterwards and nor did I want one. However, if someone in my family wanted to throw us a party, all of the guests knew I was married, it was in no way a re-enactment, and I agreed to the party, there is no harm in that. In the case of STB, there was a marriage, there will be another ceremony as if the firstact of marrying didn't count, and then yet another party for those who couldn't go to the re-enactment but thought they were actually getting married at the re-enactment. Yep- it's hard to follow.

While I did elope, we actually had a ceremony and such, so it's not quite the same as just signing a paper. But I was honestly most excited as I signed it. It made it all official! We signed the papers immediately after the ceremony. I remember putting the pen down and just beaming ear to ear!

mrs4everhart

Jells2dot0 said:

I haven't been following this mess the last few days, but an interesting thing that I have certainly noticed is that 99% of the posters think the guests should know the truth and most of that 99% would be slightly miffed (or more) if they found out that the wedding was not an actual legal ceremony and that the couple has been legally husband and wife for several months. So, to me, that correlates to most of the actual guests being in some way upset if they found out about the truth about the couple!! I've already said it once, but I really hope that this does not turn into a giant shitstorm when the truth comes out because there is a strong chance that it will at some point down the road. Just because STB doesn't want to think her guests would be offended doesn't mean that they won't be! This board is a large sampling of people from many different backgrounds and all signs point to people being offended.

As often as this subject (what you all refer to as a PPD) comes up on these boards, it does on other wedding websites as well. I'm truly not interested in the silly drama debate of "Wedding Wire is a bunch of horrid, rude, special snowflakes that just placate each other to make themselves feel better and place no value in proper etiquette" versus "The Knot is full of snarky, horrid, stuck up bitches." Both are gross generalizations and while yes, there are few bad apples that fit the stereotype of each, I don't feel that way, I see value and trash equally in both. That said, it seems every time the subject comes up over there there's A TON of supportive and positive comments, a large proportion of which have no dog in the fight, they're only giving their opinion, they themselves not in a similar situation. The number of unique posters on this subject over there is always I'd guesstimate 100-ish, if not more.  There's a very small amount of (assumably) women over here who are always front and center poo-pooing the "PPD" (ugh) concept. To attach a "99% of TK posters are statistically representative of the overall population" is just absurd. I truly don't believe it's ANYWHERE near that! If you factor in how many people on the DW boards agree with it as a concept, I don't even think you could even say "99% of TK posters." I'd hazard to guess the percentage is much closer to 50/50 on here overall.

Amongst your questionable statistics @Jells2dot0 is this idea (in my case, as you name me specifically) that there's a "strong chance" my guests who were not told ahead of time will "find out" thus causing a "shit storm." A strong chance would be over 50% wouldn't it? In my case, I'd give it less than 5% anyone will "find out" and even less than that that their finding out will end up in a storm of shit, however figurative this is meant. 

To speak to my "not wanting to think they'd be offended..." No, haven't given it enough thought to decide to NOT want to think about it. There's nothing to ponder. What these folks don't know will never harm them. Everything is going to be fine and dandy. It's all a gamble yes, but with odds as awesome as 95% in our favor, rolling the dice is just a given.

I really do appreciate your concern and ability to articulate yourself without being downright (insert your favorite TK stereotype here ;-). I just think you need to reconsider your statistics a little.

mrs4everhart

shannonmaya said:

I agree with @jells2dot0 and have been watching it too. I want to know, what about the people who marry in a courthouse/elope? What about them? I feel like she's really degrading those. I don't think you meant to use the word degrading (?). I've never insulted people who choose to marry at a courthouse and call it a day. I don't care one way or the other how other people marry each other. I'm not a poster child for any type of marriage per se. Everyone should have the right to do it how and when they see fit. I no more represent your Uncle's marriage than he represents mine. My uncle eloped, and when we all found out he got married, my dad instantly want to throw him a party in honor of their marriage. While it was all just another reason for the family to get together and celebrate, I think this is okay in the etiquette book.  (Please tell me if it wasn't. My uncle had no intention of having a get together.)

Jells2dot0

I'm not trying to be a statistics guru on here. I'm just trying to point out that the majority of people on here do not support your decision and that the people on here represent a wide variety of backgrounds and views.

MobKaz

Jells2dot0 said:

I'm not trying to be a statistics guru on here. I'm just trying to point out that the majority of people on here do not support your decision and that the people on here represent a wide variety of backgrounds and views.

Some people simply do not care if they go through life deliberately lying to their supposed nearest and dearest.  There will always be those who think they are the special case.  She's a case, alright.  I really do wish this thread, and her inane attempts to "argue" her point, would just fade away.

ashleyep

shannonmaya said:

I agree with @jells2dot0 and have been watching it too. I want to know, what about the people who marry in a courthouse/elope? I feel like she's really degrading those. My uncle eloped, and when we all found out he got married, my dad instantly want to throw him a party in honor of their marriage. While it was all just another reason for the family to get together and celebrate, I think this is okay in the etiquette book.  (Please tell me if it wasn't. My uncle had no intention of having a get together.)

No, there's nothing wrong with having a big party to celebrate your wedding after the fact. It's the farce of a ceremony that most people take offense with.

One of my FI's good friends all of a sudden ended up married a few weeks ago - we didn't even know he was engaged! When FI texted him, the guy told him "well yeah we just went to the court house, but we'll have a ceremony later." Even my fiance understands what's wrong with that. I'll go, and I'll bite my tongue, and I'll probably even tell them what a lovely ceremony it is. I would NEVER tell them what I really thought about it, but we'll be judging them for it, hard. 

But if they had just decided to have a big party to celebrate - basically the reception minus the sham of a ceremony - we'd be thrilled for them. And at least they're being up front about it. They're fb says "married."

Kerigirl9

Here's the opinion of someone with no skin in the game. Personal feelings only. You got married in the courthouse and now you want to walk down the aisle, recite vows, throw the bouquet, wear a big puffy dress? Go for it. I don't care. Just don't lie to me.

 I'm fine if I know that you already got married (for whatever reason) and now you're having a big re-enactment. As I've said on previous threads, however, just because it doesn't matter to me doesn't mean that it's correct etiquette-wise. It's not. So you can do whatever you want but don't expect people on an etiquette forum to agree with you when you do something that's against etiquette. That's all.

MobKaz

ashleyep said:

shannonmaya said:

I agree with @jells2dot0 and have been watching it too. I want to know, what about the people who marry in a courthouse/elope? I feel like she's really degrading those. My uncle eloped, and when we all found out he got married, my dad instantly want to throw him a party in honor of their marriage. While it was all just another reason for the family to get together and celebrate, I think this is okay in the etiquette book.  (Please tell me if it wasn't. My uncle had no intention of having a get together.)

No, there's nothing wrong with having a big party to celebrate your wedding after the fact. It's the farce of a ceremony that most people take offense with.

One of my FI's good friends all of a sudden ended up married a few weeks ago - we didn't even know he was engaged! When FI texted him, the guy told him "well yeah we just went to the court house, but we'll have a ceremony later." Even my fiance understands what's wrong with that. I'll go, and I'll bite my tongue, and I'll probably even tell them what a lovely ceremony it is. I would NEVER tell them what I really thought about it, but we'll be judging them for it, hard. 

But if they had just decided to have a big party to celebrate - basically the reception minus the sham of a ceremony - we'd be thrilled for them. And at least they're being up front about it. They're fb says "married."

This is how the cycle of indulgent and rude ideas continue.  The people with manners take the high road and keep quiet about the incredibly bad choices couples make.  This validates their POV that "no one cared because no one said anything".  I'm not faulting/criticizing you personally, ashleyep.  This madness really sickens me.

misshart00

Kerigirl9 said:

Here's the opinion of someone with no skin in the game. Personal feelings only. You got married in the courthouse and now you want to walk down the aisle, recite vows, throw the bouquet, wear a big puffy dress? Go for it. I don't care. Just don't lie to me.

 I'm fine if I know that you already got married (for whatever reason) and now you're having a big re-enactment. As I've said on previous threads, however, just because it doesn't matter to me doesn't mean that it's correct etiquette-wise. It's not. So you can do whatever you want but don't expect people on an etiquette forum to agree with you when you do something that's against etiquette. That's all.

This is how I feel too. If it was local, I would probably go. I've been to a PPD before and it didn't really bother me because everyone knew they were already married. But the thing is, I'm not going to shell out hundreds of dollars to go to Mexico when you're already legally married. Just don't lie to me.