Paging @Phira

lilacck28

Just wanted to post a quick: We all love you @Phira! We're all here for you! because I'm sure this feels like a huge barrage of comments and opinions.

eilis1228

J's whole derogatory bullshit and then eventual guilt is textbook abuse. Whether physical or emotional, the abuser ALWAYS crosses the line and then cries over it and expresses remorse later and then turns around and does the same thing again. Although not physical, this is without a doubt emotional abuse. And you making excuses for his behavior is exactly what an abused spouse does. "It's OK, he didn't mean it... it was just an accident. He just has a temper. He really loves me deep down." Oh, and him making you out to be the villain if a postponement occurs? Yet another sign of abuse. 

If he really loved you, he would not put you down. He wouldn't make you or your family feel less than. He would not manipulate you, blackmail you, and tear your opinions apart. He doesn't listen to you, and he clearly doesn't respect you.

I don't know him and I don't know you, but I do know that the FACTS you've provided, not just your  own personal bias you may have included, point to an abusive relationship. My heart breaks for you every time I see an update. I know you love him and I know you see the good in him, but it sounds like he is taking advantage of you. He's ignoring every single one of your concerns and acting like they're next to nothing. He doesn't even respect your opinion of your own relationship. That's crazy! Why would he want to proceed with a marriage when you have doubts?! 

Ugh, I'm raging over here for you. I really hate that you're in this situation, and I really hope he proves us all wrong and becomes the man you see in him. 

What will make you happy in the long-run? Will you be happy married to him? Not the him you want him to be, but the him he currently is. That's what I would be asking myself in this situation. 

*hugs* 

loves2shop4shoes

I just want to add that I agree 100% with EVERYTHING that @LivLeighton & @weewittlewizabeth have said.

KeptInStitches

loves2shop4shoes said:

I just want to add that I agree 100% with EVERYTHING that @LivLeighton & @weewittlewizabeth have said.

I'm cosigning this.

kaitlynmichelle

I would be calling off the whole thing at this point. You need to think about what is best for YOU. Everyone else said what I'm thinking so I won't just say the same things to you. But seriously, why would you want to marry someone that treats you like this?

Stop all wedding planning, get to a counselor. You are not in a healthy relationship and I seriously hope you realize this.

BreMR

I'm so late to this conversation, but I have read every last post and I think everyone has given you really sound and thoughtful advice.  I'm not going to try to give you any life changing advice regarding what you should do in the end of all of this because I know a lot less of your backstory than the ladies here.  I will say that I think what you're experiencing is valid enough reason to postpone your wedding.  I understand where your concern is about how it may alter your relationship with him and his family, but going through with a marriage you're not sure about is way more damaging.

Meanwhile, the holiday thing is a classic 'fight' among couples I believe. I always went to my FI's family gatherings and he rarely came to mine, so we have decided to do every other holiday with my family and then with his. Maybe that's a small solution for the time being, and it is 100% fair.

phira

Thank you everyone (and @livleighton HI! Your absence has been really noticeable, hope you're doing okay!). Lots for me to think about, and lots of therapy phone calls to make this week.

Honestly, what's been so demoralizing about all this is that I've been pretty optimistic about couple's therapy working well for us--at the very least giving us a space to talk to each other about problems we're having, where there's an audience/mediator to keep us from devolving into a fight. But the way he's been behaving lately when I've been pushing to try to solve problems we've been facing has been really disappointing.

We talked more about some family stuff tonight, and he was a lot more receptive and understanding than he has been. It just should have to take THIS much fighting and misery for us to get to that point.

Pepperally

To me, when you're engaged, it means you've already figured out the family holidays and ironed out a lot of crap.  When you're planning a wedding, like I said before, it should be only reinforcing what a strong relationship you have and that you want to take it to the next level.  You should be sharing ideas about what people will wear, where you'll go for your honeymoon, etc.  You should be cherishing your engagement phase, and instead you are going through this.  I've been through a shitty engagement and been through this current engagement and it's like night and day.  When your engagement phase is spent with more fighting because you still don't have your shit together, it's time to call it off and re-evaluate.  YES, while canceling your wedding might stir up a lot of crap amongst the families and amongst you and J, and may very well be the end of your relationship, it is MUCH better to go through that than go through the motions of getting married and being miserable and getting divorced.

loves2shop4shoes

I don't believe I have mentioned this publicly, on here, but in many ways, I know exactly what you're going through, @phira.  When DH and I were engaged, I almost called off the wedding.  I was in the process of contacting vendors to see how much of our deposits we'd lose.  So I know how scary it can be to look down the barrel of that gun.

My reasons for wanting to call it off had nothing to do with our relationship though.  I had been recently diagnosed with PCOS and my doctor had told me that I would likely have a very difficult time conceiving a child, and that it was quite possible that I would NEVER conceive a child.  Having children has always been really important to DH.  DH would make an AMAZING father and deserves children.

So after that I sat him down and told him I didn't think we should get married because it was very possible, even likely, that I would never be able to give him something he desperately wanted, and deserved.  It was a tearful conversation, but I was 100% serious. I loved DH and thought he deserved more.  And he told me that he wasn't marrying a disease.  He was marrying a person.  And throughout the course of forever, people get sick, things happen, and there are no guarantees.  He told me he wanted to marry me because he loved me, and he'd still want to marry me even if he knew for sure that I wouldn't be able to ever have children.  He said forever, no matter what, and he meant it.

My point is that sometimes, having a very real (and raw) conversation about calling off a wedding is necessary.  Sometimes, you need to actually call it off.  But having these types of hard conversations, and going through these types of challenges, is always illuminating. They help you to identify if your partner is really a partner, and if this person is really someone you want to spend your life with.

buddysmom80

@phira I just wanted to chime in and say I'm sorry you're going through this. PP have given so much good advice. It must be so hard, but you need to put YOURSELF first. If you postpone your wedding, who cares what your family or his family thinks? They're not the one marrying J or vice-versa. Please don't do the wedding because you think you have to, please do it because you want to.

Relationships are roller coasters sometimes, and I'd be a liar if I said FI and I never fight, because we do. But, every day I know I want to marry him. Flaws and all. Splitting holidays was hard for us because my parents live three hours away and we both only get a short amount of time off for Christmas and Thanksgiving. We made it work. We spend Christmas with each other alone and my parents come out to our house for Thanksgiving as well as his mom. We have a plan if/when we have kids with holidays and other events (birthdays).

Marrying J won't change him, and I think you're smart enough to know that. I think if you stepped back and really looked at this relationship, you would see how hard it is for anyone. Like @swazzle said, you're putting J first and J is putting himself first and NO ONE is putting you first.

Hang in there, and talk to us if you need to.

[Deleted User]

phira said:

loves2shop4shoes said:

phira said:

I wish I just knew what to do in the short term. I think my current plan is to eat leftover cupcakes and start rewatching Once Upon a Time.

Allow me to assist you.

Step 1:  Realize that all of the women who have replied are all alike in that they are smart, caring, and have zero skin in the matter.
Step 2:  Find the nearest pint of Ben & Jerry's and make it disappear.
Step 3:  Go to sleep.
Step 4:  Tomorrow, find a therapist.  Immediately.  If the Danielsen is full, contact Wendy Jolles. See if she can take you.  She is wonderful. You will thank me.
Step 5:  Stop ALL wedding planning/conversations.

I will definitely contact Wendy Jolles. Looks like she's super frickin conveniently located, too.

@IrishDreamer Don't worry, this is more like, "I have no fucking clue what to do with myself the rest of the night while I sit in the bedroom dicking around online and J sits in the living room probably crying because OH SO SAD."

this is classic emotional manipulation.  I have lived through this.  thankfully, I do not live with the person that would do this anymore.  I know it's hard not to try and "fix" the problem so that you don't have to deal with the emotional manipulation, but you are not a bad person.  you have needs, too, and no grown, mature man is going to be sitting in another room crying because you're having problems.  that is, like, what H's 11 year old brother does when he doesn't get the newest iPhone and video game system for Christmas.

[Deleted User]

phira said:

Well, it's more like, we can't spend Father's Day with my family because my family's get-together is not a Fathers' Day thing (it wasn't--it was just my mom's family getting together for dinner because a relative we hadn't seen in 20 years was visiting), and his family's get-together is a Fathers' Day cookout and his dad and grandfather would be there (my dad is out of the picture, and my grandfather died 25 years ago).

And it's more like Christmas is his favorite holiday EVER and he spends almost 24 hours at his parents' house (goes over the night before for dinner and to open presents from his brothers, goes home to sleep, comes back in the morning for more presents, hangs out all day, then dinner is at 3 and he stays till 9 or 10pm). Whereas in my family, my uncle (who married out) invites people for Chinese food and a movie on Christmas Eve, and then hosts dinner at 5 or 6 the next day; I'd been going to Christmas dinner for about 15 years with my family, and I'd done Christmas Eve for 3 or 4 years before I started dating J. Additionally, my family doesn't do all day Thanksgiving or Chanukah dinners--more like 3-5 hours at Thanksgiving (people with small kids go home early) and 2-3 hours at Chanukah. Compared to, say, 6-7 hours at J's uncle's house for Thanksgiving, and ALL DAY Christmas.

Meanwhile, complicating matters, we don't have a car, we can't afford to rent Zipcars for every family event, and our families live in different directions (most of my family lives 30-60 minutes west).

The thing is, I see where he's coming from: why is it so important for me to do Christmas dinner with my family when I didn't grow up celebrating the actual holiday (my family's Christmas dinner is like Thanksgiving dinner ... which is like a regular big family dinner), and when I don't even like Christmas? He doesn't see it as the only times I see a lot of my family anymore.

1.  what, is he 5 years old and can't learn to share his favorite holiday EVARRRRRRRR?

2.  .............really?

[Deleted User]

phira said:

@loves2shop4shoes Yeah, it's really infuriating because everything turns into the same damn fight:

Me: My feelings are hurt because of this thing.

J: Well, it wasn't my intention to hurt you and also here's what you did wrong.

Me: Obviously your intention wasn't to hurt me, but you still did.

J: I shouldn't have to apologize because I'm trying to explain to you how I didn't do anything wrong.

Me: But I'm still upset so maybe you should stop trying to explain.

J: But you have to let me explain.

Me: But it just makes me more upset.

J: But I shouldn't have to apologize because you hurt my feelings too.

Me: Why didn't you tell me I hurt your feelings when I hurt your feelings?
J: Because I know how much it upsets you, so I was trying to spare your feelings at the time.

Me: That doesn't make any sense.

J: Neither does me apologizing when I didn't do anything wrong.

[three hours later]

J: [sobbing] I'm sorry it's all my fault please make the fight stop

But obviously, this isn't worrisome enough that we should consider postponing the wedding and get some serious therapy.

Am I seriously the only person who thinks, "Okay yes, I will go to couple's therapy because I love you and of course I want to work on these things that make you unhappy in our relationship?"

ETA: This post brought to you by J trembling in the fetal position on the couch, listening to music on headphones, ignoring me.

1.  actually, he does have a bit of a point here.  it doesn't MATTER that his little feelers might be hurt, you need to confront the issue in a kind, mature way as it's happening.  stop feeding the conflict; face the conflict.

2.  more emotional manipulation.  "OMG IT'S ALL MY FAULT NO MOARRRRRRR!!!  I AM A HORRIBLE WORM!!!!  OMG HOW CAN YOU EVEN LIVE WITH ME, I AM THE SUCKIEST PERSON ON THE PLANET!!!"  --- I mean, REALLY, @phira?  REALLY?  if your SO is responding in the same way that a child would, you've got some issues.  and you are the one allowing it to continue, because, OMG HIS FEELERS MIGHT GET HURT.

3.  poor J.  now he's in the fetal position?  it's got to be really bad.  let's all feel sorry for him and bring him ice cream and tell him that it's all gonna be okay, don't worry anymore!  again, he is responding to a normal, adult conflict as a child.  stop feeding it.

ShallowSeas

I've also remained quiet on this topic because you are getting SO MUCH great advice and support already from everyone, but the more I read, the more I can't stay quiet.

I hate that you are going through this. I know what its like and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. You don't deserve it. No one does. You deserve to have a real partner who compromises on things so you are happy and makes your needs, feelings, and wants a top priority.

Please, please, please postpone the wedding if that's what you want to do, which it sounds like it is. Don't think about J's feelings, or family members' feelings; think about YOUR feelings. You have to put yourself first. HAVE TO. Don't feel like you're obligated to please J in this decision because there are so many options for you.

I obviously don't really know you or J. I just know what I read, and J sounds exactly like my ex. To a tee. His family always came first. Mine was pretty much chopped liver.  His needs and wants came first. Mine were never even considered. He said a lot of really cruel and untrue things to me but I made excuses as to why it was all okay. The thing I regret the most in my life is not postponing that wedding and feeling like I was trapped, or that it was something I had to do. I SO BADLY WISH that I would've listened to my friends, family, and myself and just postponed it so I could've had a clear mind and would've been able to make clear rational decisions.  I would've realized that he was not a partner and that I couldn't change him. It only got worse after we married, which is why it lasted less than a year.

From reading your posts, it feels like to me that you feel stuck. You've already told J you would make this commitment, you've already got some of it planned, family knows about it...its a tough situation and I completely and 100% get it, but you're not stuck. You have so many options and have received such amazing advice from everyone here.

 YOU are the most important person in this equation.

lilacck28

I just want to say that I am not convinced that J is a horrible person the way we imagine most abusers to be. (ETA: I say this, because I can imagine you reading this, @Phira, and thinking "no! they don't know him! He is NOT that awful." So I just want to reassure you that I am not imagining him as the devil incarnate, merely a bad boyfriend/ fiance/ possible husband.)

Instead, he sounds to me like he does not understand how to be in a relationship yet, and resorts to childish ways of emotional manipulation rather than actual communication. It is not your job to be his emotional punching bag while he (very very veryyyyyyy slowly) learns to be a grown up and treat his "partner" with respect. If he hasn't figured out by now how to be respectful and communicate, and as an adult he most definitely should have as that is a typical and healthy part of development, it will probably take him a decade or more if he ever does. 

lennonkdc

1) @phira, I am sending you the biggest hug right now!!

2) Other ladies have covered so much, but all I want to add is that when J pulls the 'But why do we have to do X,Y or Z with your family, when..." holiday BS, your answer is "Because it IS important to me to see them too." If he doesn't understand that if something is important to you, then that is enough of a reason for finding a compromise. As a couple, we don't always have to like how we divide our time, but we have to respect the other person's need for that time. Its sounds like J doesn't get that yet. 

3) one more hug!!

emmaaa

@Phira, my heart hurts for you. I am so sorry you are going through all of this. PPs have given some amazing advice and I think you need to take a long, hard, look at your relationship with J. Just to reiterate things that have already been said:

1. I love how you always refer to J as your partner. I think it shows great maturity in a relationship and a true equal partnership. However, based on what you have said in your posts, J is anything but a partner. You put his needs ahead of your own, which is normal in a relationship. But he also puts his needs ahead of yours, not normal.

2. The way that you constantly make excuses for his behavior is a classic sign of an abusive relationship. You are in a mentally and emotionally abusive relationship. Is this something that you want to live with the rest of your life? 

3. Even if I have perceived that information incorrectly, J is definitely a very manipulative person. Everything has to be his way, even down to the way you argue and have disagreements. He always makes you feel like the bad guy and you feel guilty for being angry at his uncalled for behavior.

4. Postponing the wedding, I'm sure, will not be easy. It will be hard for you both. But would you rather postpone (and possibly eventually cancel) the wedding now, or get a divorce later? I think that is the best way to look at it. 

Your relationship has some serious issues that need to be worked on. Maybe therapy and treatment can help these problems, maybe not. I think it is important to think of yourself right now. You are obviously stressed out and emotionally exhausted. For once in your relationship, this may be the perfect time to make a decision by yourself and taking only your needs in to consideration.

lmcooper86

Phira, I hope you ate cupcakes last night. If you didn't, please go buy one now because you fucking deserve it.

I have been keeping up with this thread and your previous one, and like many ladies haven't commented because I don't know you and your relationship well and other posters were pretty much hitting the nail on the head with their advice. But my heart hurts for you right now and I want to add another supportive voice.

Please stop thinking about what your family and his family and anyone else is going to think if you postpone. Think about yourself, and how you're going to feel if you postpone. From the sound of things, I'm guessing you will feel relieved to not have this wedding hanging over your head while you and J try to resolve your issues.

I'm hearing a lot of what sounds like my last relationship in what you're saying. My ex was emotionally abusive and manipulative and made me feel like everything, literally EVERYTHING, in our relationship was somehow my fault; he was never wrong, he was never the one that screwed up, and I was constantly trying to adjust and modify my own behavior to suit him. And I loved him, so I put up with it and I made excuses, and I believed that my actions were what was hurting our relationship.

We were living together and had talked about getting married; everyone assumed that was going to happen. When our relationship ended I felt like a failure. I thought everyone would judge me and think that I had failed at being an acceptable girlfriend. I didn't tell anyone what had happened for months because I was so ashamed that we weren't together anymore (yeah, crazy person, party of 1). He was the one who actually ended things, and as much as it sucked and was awful and painful, I am grateful EVERY DAY that I am not with him. When I eventually woke up and realized that I deserved so much better I stopped giving a fuck what anyone else thought.

Put yourself first this time. Think about what you want and what you need and how you feel. Forget about what your families will think if you postpone. If that's the right thing for your relationship, then who cares what they think? Please take the time to actually think about what is right for YOU and then act on it. So many hugs for you!!

ETA this is a rambly mess, but I am upset for you and organizing thoughts is hard.

Hummingbird125

@Phira

I agree with what everyone else has said so far. I'm worried that right now you might be feeling bombarded with our opinions, and this may lead you to feel even more defensive of J, because you, unlike us, have probably seen some great things about him. However, from what you've said, it's clear that you two have some major issues that need to be worked out, and I 100% believe that you do not have enough time before your wedding to FULLY resolve these issues, and be able to move forward towards your wedding with total optimism about your future with J. I hate that he's making you feel like the bad guy for wanting to postpone. Nobody WANTS to postpone/cancel their wedding! That's a last resort! You (wisely) want to do what you know is the right thing in this situation. I'm sorry he feels like it means you want to break up with him, but if he'd rather you just end the relationship than postpone the wedding and WORK to FIX your issues, then he isn't committed to your relationship - he just wants/needs the safety net of marriage.

FWIW, I recently had a somewhat serious argument with my FI. What he "did" wasn't anything horrible, but the fact that we'd argued about the same thing many times before and he KEPT doing it was a big red flag to me. I changed up the way I discussed this with him, and sent him a very clear signal that I needed him to make sure that I always felt like his priority. My FI thought long and hard about how he made me feel, and he was miserable for making me feel like that. I went away for the weekend, and when I returned, we talked about the issue again. He made it clear that I am the most important thing in his life, and he will do whatever it takes to make sure I always feel that way. I've never been more confident that he knows how important it is to WORK at keeping our relationship strong. 

From everything you've told us, I just don't get that sense from J.He seems terrified at the prospect of losing you, but doesn't wan to "do whatever it takes" to make you happier in this relationship. You shouldn't have to fight/beg/argue to make him see how important it is to work on these issues. 

evadorrough

I don't have much to add, except to say that I'm sorry you're going through this.  PP have all given great advice.  Take care of yourself right now; you've spent more than enough time worrying about J and his family.  Right now, focus on your needs--they're important.

Five years from now, you'll almost certainly thank yourself for postponing (or even calling off) the wedding and really addressing the underlying issues here.  

phira

I hesitate to say this, mostly because I'm entirely aware that being trained in sexual violence and abuse prevention doesn't mean that I'm completely immune to finding myself neck-deep in an abusive situation. But I think the bigger issue with J is that he is not getting treated for his OCD and related depression. It doesn't make his behavior acceptable, and it doesn't make it less ARGHHH WOULD YOU STOP. And it doesn't mean that, WELP I signed up for a lifetime of this already, oh well. I really do think that he's just THIS bad at dealing with change, and doing something different (like missing Christmas with his parents) means obsessing over how he's destroyed his relationship with them, and how they would never understand why he'd miss such an important family holiday to be with a family that doesn't even really celebrate the holiday. Etc.

Point being, last night, I told him that if he wanted to stay in this relationship (wedding aside), then he needed to find a therapist. I told him that I didn't care if he saw a social worker or a psychiatrist--he has to find a mental health professional, he has to find one as soon as possible, and he has to get back into treatment. I'm aware that being treated for OCD is not the same as just going in once a week and talking for an hour. I'm also entirely aware that OCD isn't something that eventually goes away. And I know that this might not even be his OCD--it might just be how J is, even if he had normal brain chemistry.

But until he goes and GETS treatment, it'll be impossible to tell if treatment helps. Which is what we talked about last night.

J is willing to spend the time and money on this, as well as couple's therapy, and he is also considering going to HR at work and seeing if he can have an adjustment in hours so he can have early morning appointments (for individual therapy, couple's therapy, or both). When I say "considering," I mean that he brought it up as an option, but that it might not be necessary.

And yes--J has been officially diagnosed with OCD and has had some success with CBT in the past (he used to have to drink out of paper cups and use a new kitchen sponge every time he did the dishes).

A lot of you have asked me if I want to be married to J, and honestly, I do want to marry him. It's becoming increasingly clear, though, that postponing the wedding, indefinitely or otherwise, would effectively end the relationship. I'm still not sure what I want to do, given the circumstances.

What frustrates me the most about this is that I did not want a big, traditional wedding. I wanted to go to the courthouse and then maybe go to dinner with 20 people or so. The thousands of dollars we'd be out if I wanted to postpone? Not money I wanted to spend on a wedding anyway.

Swazzle

@phira - At this point, I feel like every single person that has taken the time to respond to you is basically being ignored (is this reminiscent of anyone?). You are still making excuses for J. I know that it is hard to see since you're the person in the thick of it but like 30 different people have said that this is not how you should start your marriage and you should 100% (at the very least) postpone your wedding. You NOT postponing it is telling him that he can continue to do whatever the hell he wants because he is getting his way and continuing to treat you like shit. Your responses have become frustrating and I feel like anything else I say is just a complete waste of time. I really hope you can take time for yourself (ignoring everyone else's opinions/feelings/demands) and figure out that the current path you're on with J is a destructive one.  

GoldenPenguin

phira said:

I hesitate to say this, mostly because I'm entirely aware that being trained in sexual violence and abuse prevention doesn't mean that I'm completely immune to finding myself neck-deep in an abusive situation. But I think the bigger issue with J is that he is not getting treated for his OCD and related depression. It doesn't make his behavior acceptable, and it doesn't make it less ARGHHH WOULD YOU STOP. And it doesn't mean that, WELP I signed up for a lifetime of this already, oh well. I really do think that he's just THIS bad at dealing with change, and doing something different (like missing Christmas with his parents) means obsessing over how he's destroyed his relationship with them, and how they would never understand why he'd miss such an important family holiday to be with a family that doesn't even really celebrate the holiday. Etc.

Point being, last night, I told him that if he wanted to stay in this relationship (wedding aside), then he needed to find a therapist. I told him that I didn't care if he saw a social worker or a psychiatrist--he has to find a mental health professional, he has to find one as soon as possible, and he has to get back into treatment. I'm aware that being treated for OCD is not the same as just going in once a week and talking for an hour. I'm also entirely aware that OCD isn't something that eventually goes away. And I know that this might not even be his OCD--it might just be how J is, even if he had normal brain chemistry.

But until he goes and GETS treatment, it'll be impossible to tell if treatment helps. Which is what we talked about last night.

J is willing to spend the time and money on this, as well as couple's therapy, and he is also considering going to HR at work and seeing if he can have an adjustment in hours so he can have early morning appointments (for individual therapy, couple's therapy, or both). When I say "considering," I mean that he brought it up as an option, but that it might not be necessary.

And yes--J has been officially diagnosed with OCD and has had some success with CBT in the past (he used to have to drink out of paper cups and use a new kitchen sponge every time he did the dishes).

A lot of you have asked me if I want to be married to J, and honestly, I do want to marry him. It's becoming increasingly clear, though, that postponing the wedding, indefinitely or otherwise, would effectively end the relationship. I'm still not sure what I want to do, given the circumstances.

What frustrates me the most about this is that I did not want a big, traditional wedding. I wanted to go to the courthouse and then maybe go to dinner with 20 people or so. The thousands of dollars we'd be out if I wanted to postpone? Not money I wanted to spend on a wedding anyway.

THIS is an ultimatum. Ultimatums NEVER end well.

If you decide to postpone the wedding, it will end the relationship because HE refuses to see that there are problems that should be fixed BEFORE you get married.

You two got engaged because HE decided it was time - you have said more than once that it happened before you were 100% ready. You are continuing on with wedding plans because HE is telling you "we postpone, we're done." That is manipulative and abusive.

You have always prided yourself on here for being a feminist and an advocate for equal partners, and your relationship is anything BUT reinforcing these ideals. If he is FORCING you to continue on with marriage plans and you are not ready for them, you need to seriously think about what you're getting yourself into. He's not going to change this behavior. 

loves2shop4shoes

Let me be clear.  I know several people with OCD.  OCD will absolutely make you check to see that the stove has been turned off 50 times.  It will make you check that you locked the front door multiple times.  It will make you use a new sponge every time you wash the dishes.

OCD will absolutely NOT make you tell your fiancee that she doesn't get to spend Christmastime with her family because she's a Jew.  OCD will absolutely not make you dole out ultimatums when your fiancee expresses a desire to postpone your wedding.  OCD will absolutely not make you say cruel, abusive things, like "We shouldn't spend Father's Day with your family because you don't really have a dad anyway."

lilacck28

I understand not wanting to end your relationship, and I understand not wanting to lose thousands of dollars. But... a divorce will do that too. You're going to do what you want to do, but I wish you had a happy, healthy relationship with someone who supports you and puts your needs first.

 I have OCD. I understand those little voices in the head that freeze you up ("omg. if you don't do this right, your entire life path will be RUINED!") I know OCD manifests differently in everyone but... I still put the needs of M first. And when we have any type of disagreement or issue, which is exceedingly rare, we sit down and calmly talk about it, hug, and make up. And then that thing we disagreed about or had an issue with goes away. And does not come back. And he NEVER acts like my feelings are less important than his are, or his time with his family is more important than mine. 

Maybe once J gets into treatment, and you have couples therapy, this will all go away, and you'll be married and happy.  Maybe. And I hope that is true. But like I said way earlier... relationships shouldn't take THIS much work at the beginning of your life together. That's a signal of incompatibility in my opinion. 

cu97tiger

phira said:

I hesitate to say this, mostly because I'm entirely aware that being trained in sexual violence and abuse prevention doesn't mean that I'm completely immune to finding myself neck-deep in an abusive situation. But I think the bigger issue with J is that he is not getting treated for his OCD and related depression. It doesn't make his behavior acceptable, and it doesn't make it less ARGHHH WOULD YOU STOP. And it doesn't mean that, WELP I signed up for a lifetime of this already, oh well. I really do think that he's just THIS bad at dealing with change, and doing something different (like missing Christmas with his parents) means obsessing over how he's destroyed his relationship with them, and how they would never understand why he'd miss such an important family holiday to be with a family that doesn't even really celebrate the holiday. Etc.

Point being, last night, I told him that if he wanted to stay in this relationship (wedding aside), then he needed to find a therapist. I told him that I didn't care if he saw a social worker or a psychiatrist--he has to find a mental health professional, he has to find one as soon as possible, and he has to get back into treatment. I'm aware that being treated for OCD is not the same as just going in once a week and talking for an hour. I'm also entirely aware that OCD isn't something that eventually goes away. And I know that this might not even be his OCD--it might just be how J is, even if he had normal brain chemistry.

But until he goes and GETS treatment, it'll be impossible to tell if treatment helps. Which is what we talked about last night.

J is willing to spend the time and money on this, as well as couple's therapy, and he is also considering going to HR at work and seeing if he can have an adjustment in hours so he can have early morning appointments (for individual therapy, couple's therapy, or both). When I say "considering," I mean that he brought it up as an option, but that it might not be necessary.

And yes--J has been officially diagnosed with OCD and has had some success with CBT in the past (he used to have to drink out of paper cups and use a new kitchen sponge every time he did the dishes).

A lot of you have asked me if I want to be married to J, and honestly, I do want to marry him. It's becoming increasingly clear, though, that postponing the wedding, indefinitely or otherwise, would effectively end the relationship. I'm still not sure what I want to do, given the circumstances.

What frustrates me the most about this is that I did not want a big, traditional wedding. I wanted to go to the courthouse and then maybe go to dinner with 20 people or so. The thousands of dollars we'd be out if I wanted to postpone? Not money I wanted to spend on a wedding anyway.

@phira - I totally get what you are saying about giving J the opportunity to seek help and see how much of his actions are OCD related. With that said, you NOT postponing the wedding, even when you have serious reservations and obvious relationship work that needs to be done, seems to me to be a coping mechanism. It's ok to say 'I'm not ready to postpone the wedding yet' or 'I don't need to make a decision until x date', but don't blame it on the fact that the relationship would be over. Because honestly, there will be things that come up in your marriage, and you NOT taking action on them because you are afraid of J's reaction (in this case, his overreaction to you wanting to postpone), will be a common theme. 

lennonkdc

phira said:

I hesitate to say this, mostly because I'm entirely aware that being trained in sexual violence and abuse prevention doesn't mean that I'm completely immune to finding myself neck-deep in an abusive situation. But I think the bigger issue with J is that he is not getting treated for his OCD and related depression. It doesn't make his behavior acceptable, and it doesn't make it less ARGHHH WOULD YOU STOP. And it doesn't mean that, WELP I signed up for a lifetime of this already, oh well. I really do think that he's just THIS bad at dealing with change, and doing something different (like missing Christmas with his parents) means obsessing over how he's destroyed his relationship with them, and how they would never understand why he'd miss such an important family holiday to be with a family that doesn't even really celebrate the holiday. Etc.

Point being, last night, I told him that if he wanted to stay in this relationship (wedding aside), then he needed to find a therapist. I told him that I didn't care if he saw a social worker or a psychiatrist--he has to find a mental health professional, he has to find one as soon as possible, and he has to get back into treatment. I'm aware that being treated for OCD is not the same as just going in once a week and talking for an hour. I'm also entirely aware that OCD isn't something that eventually goes away. And I know that this might not even be his OCD--it might just be how J is, even if he had normal brain chemistry.

But until he goes and GETS treatment, it'll be impossible to tell if treatment helps. Which is what we talked about last night.

J is willing to spend the time and money on this, as well as couple's therapy, and he is also considering going to HR at work and seeing if he can have an adjustment in hours so he can have early morning appointments (for individual therapy, couple's therapy, or both). When I say "considering," I mean that he brought it up as an option, but that it might not be necessary.

And yes--J has been officially diagnosed with OCD and has had some success with CBT in the past (he used to have to drink out of paper cups and use a new kitchen sponge every time he did the dishes).

A lot of you have asked me if I want to be married to J, and honestly, I do want to marry him. It's becoming increasingly clear, though, that postponing the wedding, indefinitely or otherwise, would effectively end the relationship. I'm still not sure what I want to do, given the circumstances.

What frustrates me the most about this is that I did not want a big, traditional wedding. I wanted to go to the courthouse and then maybe go to dinner with 20 people or so. The thousands of dollars we'd be out if I wanted to postpone? Not money I wanted to spend on a wedding anyway.

**SITDB**

Ok, all other MH/OCD issues aside, I have a question to the bolded. Would his family actually react this way? Would they throw a fit and manipulate his emotions till he gave in and did want they wanted, everyone else be damned?  Because if thats what they'd do then J's issue is that he comes from an emotionally abusive family, and he has learned that this is an acceptable pattern of behavior. J can't see that this is unhealthy b/c he's been indoctrinated with extremely toxic ideas about how relationships work. This is a whole different issue than "he's got OCD and hates change" CBT will help OCD, it won't solve the fact that he grew up learning such abusive patterns of behavior.  

Blue & White

I wrote this out in MS Word because I'm way too wordy today. Sorry in advance for the novel... @phira I worked all day yesterday so I missed this part of your update. That being said, I've read through it all today and my heart is breaking for you. *hugs* On the therapy/relationship/etc. issue, I think J needs to realize that there isn't going to be a relationship without SIGNIFICANT progress in therapy. Not just about his OCD. And frankly, I don't think it's your responsibility to sit there idly and wait for him to take care of that. If your UC (I believe that's the correct diagnosis, but the diagnosis is not the point of this) was out of control enough, you could DIE. Or ya know, have a colostomy bag. Both are not that great options. J ignoring his OCD (which by not getting treatment, he is doing) is essentially saying "give me the colostomy bag or death, that's fine. Whatever, I don't care about anyone else's feelings on the matter." You know how much of a "take care of your own health" advocate I am - J needs to man up and take care of his own health. When was the last time he got a physical? Are we sure this is all psychological and not physical as well? Get the kid some bloodwork, stat. After all, this OCD diagnosis is from what I can tell, years old. It may have devolved from there. On the wedding postponement issue, you need to postpone the wedding. You absolutely cannot get married to J in this state. And even if we JUST fix the OCD issues, there isn’t enough time before October to figure out the relationship too. This is the hardest part and the most important part: IF J THINKS POSTPONEMENT IS BREAKING UP, THEN YOU HAVE TO BREAK UP. That’s gonna cause all sorts of issues. Ask @clogreeneyes how often she wanted to get back together with C initially. Yea, it happens, it’s life. Ask my mom what she told me when I broke up with my high school/college boyfriend (it was “you’re making the biggest mistake of your life” if you were wondering.) But then, more importantly, ask her what kind of man she thinks my J is – and she’ll tell you that the first J and I would have never worked out. There was NO potential abuse in said relationship with my ex. None. I loved him, he loved me – I didn’t think our lives were going in the same direction. And they weren’t, they haven’t. So yea, your family (and his) will probably get their panties in a wad. Don’t you think it would be worse if you got married and then ended up divorced 2 months later? Or a year? Or 2 years? So I think there are some steps you need to take in this relationship: 1) Individual therapy – check! Be sure to be completely honest about your feelers here, and heck…bring in some samples of our responses and what we’re seeing too. Maybe have some IRL friends write up what they’re seeing in the relationship. Your therapist needs to know what’s going on from all sides. 2) POSTPONE THE WEDDING. Even if this means you and J aren’t together anymore. That’s okay. 3) Honestly, I think you need to take a bigger break than just postponing the wedding. I think you need to find a place to live that J doesn’t live in. And I think you need to find a way to independently get reliable transportation to visit your friends and family – they were there before J, they will be there during and/or after J as well. One of the biggest things in a breakup is making sure you’re taking care of yourself. Your friends and family will hold you accountable for that. 4) If you do resume and/or continue the relationship with J, I think it’s best if you take a big step back. There needs to be individual and couples therapy on both ends. 5) Because sex fucks stuff up, I wouldn’t be sleeping with J at the moment either. Ya know those feelers we were talking about? In females, our feelers are SO STINKING ATTACHED to sex. And we need to remove at least a variable from the equation. God, @phira, you need a freaking hug. This is going to be hard. It’s going to hurt, probably you and J. It might even hurt your friends and/or family. But just like shitting your brains out hurts when your UC flares up, sometimes you need a big flashing sign to say “hey, there’s something wrong here.” I think you see the sign – I implore you to do something about it. As your part in the partnership, it is your responsibility to make sure that phira the person is doing okay too. If J wasn’t around (let’s just say he didn’t exist, you never met him)…how would your life be different? Is that a better life? If so, doesn’t that make you question why this life is the way that it is?

Blue & White

WTH TK. There was so much formatting in that shiz. I'm going back to edit if I can ETA: I attempted. TK just hates me

lilacck28

loves2shop4shoes said:

Let me be clear.  I know several people with OCD.  OCD will absolutely make you check to see that the stove has been turned off 50 times.  It will make you check that you locked the front door multiple times.  It will make you use a new sponge every time you wash the dishes.

OCD will absolutely NOT make you tell your fiancee that she doesn't get to spend Christmastime with her family because she's a Jew.  OCD will absolutely not make you dole out ultimatums when your fiancee expresses a desire to postpone your wedding.  OCD will absolutely not make you say cruel, abusive things, like "We shouldn't spend Father's Day with your family because you don't really have a dad anyway."

Agreed. Besides making you repeat things, OCD may also freeze you up and say "I don't want to separate! We could get lost!" or "I can't do this (paper, work thing, cleaning) right now... once I start I won't be able to stop! It needs to be PERFECT! There's SO MUCH to do!" 

But it won't make you say something like "your family time is less important than my family time because you don't even CELEBRATE this. duh. but that other holiday that you do celebrate? Yeah, its more important to be with my family then too." That's a symptom of being a jerk, or being much too dependent on his family, not OCD. If you want to give up your time with your family for the rest of your life, then okay. That's your decision. But you need to be prepared for those things not to change. Because they don't sound like they are a result of any type of OCD I have ever heard of, and certainly not the part of OCD that can be treated. 

ps- I can't handle sponges either. Fiance hand washes most things because of it. Thank goodness for dishwashers. 

I just feel so upset for you! I've read these types of threads in the past and thought "why are they telling her to break up?? They don't know her relationship??" but... the degree to which you are upset by the things that J has done, and your lack of interest and resentment towards having a wedding and getting engaged are what is driving these responses (besides the asshole things J has said.)