How do you address envelopes? My friend is offended

jenijoyk

You will make an excellent attorney. Cool headed and very classy. 

manateehugger

jenijoyk said:

You will make an excellent attorney. Cool headed and very classy. 

Do you not have anything better to except bait people and rest on your own elitist laurels because you are over 30 and have a JD (whoop de doo?)?

jenijoyk

Are you serious? I'm sorry, but how am I baiting anyone? Neither myself, nor the girl with the original facebook post have been anywhere close to as rabid as some of the other posters on here. I haven't sworn at anyone on what is ironically a board about "etiquette." I'm sorry my opinion is in the minority, but I'm not baiting anyone. The rudeness of the post I was responding to was off the charts. That I am the one being told is doing the baiting is truly absurd. 

I have a different opinion than you. I think going by "Mrs. Jan Doe" is bizarre. You all disagree. Guess what, you (1) don't need to swear at me; and (2) will not suffer in anyway because someone a million miles away thinks that's weird. I honestly thought this was a goodnatured conversation until a few people seemed to lose their minds reacting to my super-burn about internal frowning. Take it all down a notch, people. My opinion has no bearing on you. 

jdluvr06

jenijoyk said:

Let's take a deep breath, and reign in the f-bombs. I honestly apologize that my comment upset you so much. It was snarky thing to say, and a little bit in response to your comment that feminists should be all about equal choices, which I disagree with. But you're right and I should save that conversation for happy hour with my friends, instead of on a wedding etiquette message board with strangers.

And in all seriousness, thank you for enlightening me about where "rule of thumb" comes from. I had no idea and after independently confirming I will never, ever use that phrase again. Not even being sarcastic. It's been wiped from my lexicon.

I can't believe no one has addressed this. If feminism isn't about equal choice then what is it about?

manateehugger

jdluvr06 said:

jenijoyk said:

Let's take a deep breath, and reign in the f-bombs. I honestly apologize that my comment upset you so much. It was snarky thing to say, and a little bit in response to your comment that feminists should be all about equal choices, which I disagree with. But you're right and I should save that conversation for happy hour with my friends, instead of on a wedding etiquette message board with strangers.

And in all seriousness, thank you for enlightening me about where "rule of thumb" comes from. I had no idea and after independently confirming I will never, ever use that phrase again. Not even being sarcastic. It's been wiped from my lexicon.

I can't believe no one has addressed this. If feminism isn't about equal choice then what is it about?

Yeah, WTF, I missed this. So what should feminists be about?

jenijoyk

This obviously isn't the place to argue about this anymore, because nothing I say will change anyone's mind and will just escalate. I sincerely apologize for about the 20th time on here for offending people. That was really not my intention. 

I totally get that everyone disagrees with me. I will refrain from commenting anymore, and you can all continue to bash my posts (I'm not even being sarcastic, I'm being serious, please go ahead and continue hashing out your feelings amongst yourselves). 

These boards are like crack, and impossible to stop reading, but I will seriously do my best to go on with my life. 

Honestly, I am a raging feminist. My fiance would probably call me militant. And it's ok. Gloria Steinem is my spirit animal (or is it Mrs. David Bale - KIDDING AGAIN). Seriously and sincerely, I wish you all the best with all your invitation addressing. I am over and out.

manateehugger

jenijoyk said:

This obviously isn't the place to argue about this anymore, because nothing I say will change anyone's mind and will just escalate. I sincerely apologize for about the 20th time on here for offending people. That was really not my intention. 

I totally get that everyone disagrees with me. I will refrain from commenting anymore, and you can all continue to bash my posts (I'm not even being sarcastic, I'm being serious, please go ahead and continue hashing out your feelings amongst yourselves). 

These boards are like crack, and impossible to stop reading, but I will seriously do my best to go on with my life. 

Honestly, I am a raging feminist. My fiance would probably call me militant. And it's ok. Gloria Steinem is my spirit animal (or is it Mrs. David Bale - KIDDING AGAIN). Seriously and sincerely, I wish you all the best with all your invitation addressing. I am over and out.

The bolded doesn't jive with "feminism shouldn't be about equal choice" in my mind, so I'm genuinely curious.

Simply Fated

jdluvr06 said:

I honestly can't imagine being offended by how someone addressed me on an envelope... Well unless they addressed it to "the fucking whore of the house" or something like that. Is it really that big of a deal? I just addressed my invites to either "mr and mrs smith" if they don't have kids or "the smith family" if they do.

If my letters aren't addressed Ms. fucking whore of the house, I return them to sender. None of this Miss fucking whore of the house crap.

kkitkat79

Ok, I didn't read the entire thread so sorry if this has been addressed already, but isn't saying Mrs. Jane Doe just grammatically incorrect? If I understand correctly Mrs. comes from Mister's as in belongs to Mister John Doe. So if a woman chooses to be addressed is Mrs. it has to be Mrs. John Doe. Otherwise she should go by Ms. Jane Doe. English is not my first language so can someone clarify this for me.

Simply Fated

jdluvr06 said:

jenijoyk said:

Let's take a deep breath, and reign in the f-bombs. I honestly apologize that my comment upset you so much. It was snarky thing to say, and a little bit in response to your comment that feminists should be all about equal choices, which I disagree with. But you're right and I should save that conversation for happy hour with my friends, instead of on a wedding etiquette message board with strangers.

And in all seriousness, thank you for enlightening me about where "rule of thumb" comes from. I had no idea and after independently confirming I will never, ever use that phrase again. Not even being sarcastic. It's been wiped from my lexicon.

I can't believe no one has addressed this. If feminism isn't about equal choice then what is it about?

Nope, that's exactly what it's about. Feminism is about being allowed to make the same choices allotted to men. Having the same opportunities as men. And the freedom to act on these choices and opportunities.

scrunchythief

l 

jenijoyk said:

Are you serious? I'm sorry, but how am I baiting anyone? Neither myself, nor the girl with the original facebook post have been anywhere close to as rabid as some of the other posters on here. I haven't sworn at anyone on what is ironically a board about "etiquette." I'm sorry my opinion is in the minority, but I'm not baiting anyone. The rudeness of the post I was responding to was off the charts. That I am the one being told is doing the baiting is truly absurd. 

I have a different opinion than you. I think going by "Mrs. Jan Doe" is bizarre. You all disagree. Guess what, you (1) don't need to swear at me; and (2) will not suffer in anyway because someone a million miles away thinks that's weird. I honestly thought this was a goodnatured conversation until a few people seemed to lose their minds reacting to my super-burn about internal frowning. Take it all down a notch, people. My opinion has no bearing on you. 

Nobody got upset because your opinion differed from theirs.  You don't see anyone saying that I'm baiting anyone do you?  I even noticed a few "love it"s on my posts in this thread from people who disagreed with me.  Things got a tad heated at time, but things were pretty respectful overall.

The difference is that I never told anyone that I don't respect their choice to be called whatever they want.  If you were "frowning on the inside" you probably should've kept it on the inside.  Once you tell people that, it's no longer a private opinion and it is more offensive than someone addressing you in a way that (regrettably, IMO) follows proper etiquette.  And then to essentially tell someone that someday they'll be more like you and their opinion will change is beyond rude.  

As an aside, I did try to address the whole feminism isn't about equal choices.  Apparently, I didn't do a clear enough job. What else is it if not fighting for the freedom to make as many choices as men can without discrimination as a result?

southernbelle0915

jenijoyk said:

This obviously isn't the place to argue about this anymore, because nothing I say will change anyone's mind and will just escalate. I sincerely apologize for about the 20th time on here for offending people. That was really not my intention. 

I totally get that everyone disagrees with me. I will refrain from commenting anymore, and you can all continue to bash my posts (I'm not even being sarcastic, I'm being serious, please go ahead and continue hashing out your feelings amongst yourselves). 

These boards are like crack, and impossible to stop reading, but I will seriously do my best to go on with my life. 

Honestly, I am a raging feminist. My fiance would probably call me militant. And it's ok. Gloria Steinem is my spirit animal (or is it Mrs. David Bale - KIDDING AGAIN). Seriously and sincerely, I wish you all the best with all your invitation addressing. I am over and out.

Feminism is about equality and choice. "Raging" I think is the key word here for this thread. Not "feminist". 

I also consider myself a feminist. I really despise the "Mr. and Mrs. John Smith" tradition because of where the tradition comes from. Also, IMO, it's indicative of one person in the relationship being "deserving" of having their name listed and the other not. Surprise! It's always the man. I really hate it. If someone prefers to be addressed that way - what-the-fuck-ever. Definitely not my thing. But in the same way I don't want people to judge me for keeping my last name and expecting to be addressed as such, I don't care how they want their title (not their name, obviously, as I'm sure they don't go by "John") written out.

If you look back at this thread, I agreed with you on pretty much everything until you started putting someone else down for their CHOICE. And then you proceeded to put them down for their age, relationship status, education status, and occupation. WTF is that? I get that you apologized, but even your apology sounds judgy and like you're justifying this attitude. 

It's just disappointing to me personally because I think this kind of extreme attitude really hurts "the cause" and point of view that I think we share.

Bubblegum5586

I couldn't read this whole thing, but just wanted to say I am 27 and COULDN'T CARE LESS. As long as our name is spelled correctly, call me MRS his firstname his lastname all you want.

I guess I am just more secure in myself to not get all up in arms about this. Anyone that knows me and my husband knows he in no way owns me. We have a great partnership where we depend on each other greatly. To the OPs post about the friend's FB post, I would roll my eyes all day long at that BS and would likely unfriend/unfollow because I can only assume she posts all kind of obnoxious BS all the time.

Honestly I find it shocking how worked up everyone got all over this. I almost wish I had the time to read the whole thread but I think I got the gist! 

mysticl

kkitkat79 said:

Ok, I didn't read the entire thread so sorry if this has been addressed already, but isn't saying Mrs. Jane Doe just grammatically incorrect? If I understand correctly Mrs. comes from Mister's as in belongs to Mister John Doe. So if a woman chooses to be addressed is Mrs. it has to be Mrs. John Doe. Otherwise she should go by Ms. Jane Doe. English is not my first language so can someone clarify this for me.

Mrs. is the abbreviation for Mistress and Mr. is the abbreviation for Master.  Those used to be the proper ways to address people.  Over time the pronunciations evolved into what we use today.

PrettyGirlLost

jenijoyk said:

Also, honey, I just read some of your other posts out of curiousity. And this comes from a really well meaning place: get engaged, go to law school, work as an attorney for a few years, turn 30, and then let me know if you feel the same way about being addressed as "Mrs. John Doe." I'm not saying this to be snarky AT ALL. I'm really, really not. I'm speaking from experience. Your views on this might change over the next 10 years. Mine did. Be open.

I think you meant well with this post, but you shot yourself in the foot.

I'm 33 years old and I'm a molecular biologist. Again, I'm not taking FI's last name for a variety of professional and personal reasons.   I have zero fucks to give if someone unintentionally addresses a piece of mail to FI and I as Mr. and Mrs. HisFirstname HisLastname.  I will not assume it is because of any intended misogyny.

PrettyGirlLost

lyndausvi said:

jenijoyk said:

Also, honey, I just read some of your other posts out of curiousity. And this comes from a really well meaning place: get engaged, go to law school, work as an attorney for a few years, turn 30, and then let me know if you feel the same way about being addressed as "Mrs. John Doe." I'm not saying this to be snarky AT ALL. I'm really, really not. I'm speaking from experience. Your views on this might change over the next 10 years. Mine did. Be open.

I got married for the first time in my 30's.  It does not bother me one bit to have an envelope addressed Mr and Mrs John Doe.  Not at all. We do not have the same name (mine is both my maiden and his last name). 

I've never been addressed solely as Mrs Joe Doe.   The only time I've been addressed Mrs John Doe is after "Mr and" on an invitation.   Seriously not something I  care about.

I know plenty of women who have taken or not taken their husband's names.  Many are doctors, lawyers or other professionals.  None of them have the strong reaction to the subject as the OP's friend about the subject on a social level.  

::shrugs::

FWIW - I addressed envelopes according to known preferences.  Unknown ones got the tradition Mr and Mrs John Doe.  Yep me too.   Send out my STDs like this too, and no one corrected me, soooooo. . . .

 Well, with the exception of an 80 year old widow.  I took the liberty in putting Mrs Jane Doe, as that is how I would prefer to be addressed without my husband on the envelope.    It was sent back to me as Mrs John Doe.  Well okay then, off to my spreadsheet to make that change for the future.  Who am I to frown on how an 80 year old wants to be addressed on an envelope?

jdluvr06 said:

I honestly can't imagine being offended by how someone addressed me on an envelope... Well unless they addressed it to "the fucking whore of the house" or something like that. Is it really that big of a deal? I just addressed my invites to either "mr and mrs smith" if they don't have kids or "the smith family" if they do.

OMG, LMFAO!  I love it!

PrettyGirlLost

jenijoyk said:

Are you serious? I'm sorry, but how am I baiting anyone? Neither myself, nor the girl with the original facebook post have been anywhere close to as rabid as some of the other posters on here. I haven't sworn at anyone on what is ironically a board about "etiquette." I'm sorry my opinion is in the minority, but I'm not baiting anyone. The rudeness of the post I was responding to was off the charts. That I am the one being told is doing the baiting is truly absurd. 

I have a different opinion than you. I think going by "Mrs. Jan Doe" is bizarre. You all disagree. Guess what, you (1) don't need to swear at me; and (2) will not suffer in anyway because someone a million miles away thinks that's weird. I honestly thought this was a goodnatured conversation until a few people seemed to lose their minds reacting to my super-burn about internal frowning. Take it all down a notch, people. My opinion has no bearing on you. 

I think you are taking the swearing a little too personally.  And I think JellyBean was throwing out the F-bombs because she was pretty freaking pissed. . . which seems appropriate to me.

I think this is still a good natured conversation, although it got a bit heated when a few people, me included, took umbrage with a few things you said, and voiced counter opinions.  When you post on a public forum, you have to be willing to accept that someone may disagree, call you out, or take offense to something that you say. 

But I don't think you should just hang up your hat (I can use that phrase right?  It has nothing to do with misogynistic practices, right?) and write this forum off over a single thread.

scrunchythief

bubblegum1309 said:

I couldn't read this whole thing, but just wanted to say I am 27 and COULDN'T CARE LESS. As long as our name is spelled correctly, call me MRS his firstname his lastname all you want.

I guess I am just more secure in myself to not get all up in arms about this. Anyone that knows me and my husband knows he in no way owns me. We have a great partnership where we depend on each other greatly. To the OPs post about the friend's FB post, I would roll my eyes all day long at that BS and would likely unfriend/unfollow because I can only assume she posts all kind of obnoxious BS all the time.

Honestly I find it shocking how worked up everyone got all over this. I almost wish I had the time to read the whole thread but I think I got the gist! 

@bubblegum1309, if you're not going to read this, which is fine, could you please not assume we got super worked up over the issue?  Most of the heated parts of the conversation were from people not respecting others' preferences.  Such as your assumption that you're more secure in yourself because someone is offended by something you're not?  I'm not offended by people misspelling my name, because I figure it's probably an honest mistake.  Does this make me more secure in myself than you?

For the most part this was a pretty good, if at times strained,conversation about etiquette, personal preferences and whether etiquette should be expected to evolve over time on this issue.  

PrettyGirlLost

bubblegum1309 said:

I couldn't read this whole thing, but just wanted to say I am 27 and COULDN'T CARE LESS. As long as our name is spelled correctly, call me MRS his firstname his lastname all you want.

I guess I am just more secure in myself to not get all up in arms about this. Anyone that knows me and my husband knows he in no way owns me. We have a great partnership where we depend on each other greatly. To the OPs post about the friend's FB post, I would roll my eyes all day long at that BS and would likely unfriend/unfollow because I can only assume she posts all kind of obnoxious BS all the time.

Honestly I find it shocking how worked up everyone got all over this. I almost wish I had the time to read the whole thread but I think I got the gist! 

Yeah, about that. . . you didn't get the gist of it because you are totally wrong about what ppl got "worked up" about. ><

themuffinman16

huskypuppy14 said:

I didn't take my husband's last name, but I don't care if we get correspondence to Mr. and Mrs. Joe Doe. I try to think of Mrs. like wife of, and I am his wife. 

I actually get more annoyed seeing my first name with his last name, because that's not my name, but whatever. And I don't think anyone sends mail to Mrs. Joe Doe (alone) anymore, at least not in my circle. Now, maybe an older lady would prefer that, and that is her choice, but it's certainly not common even if it's proper etiquette.

I really would like to get rid of the Mrs. and Miss titles and just use Ms. all the time. I think marital status titles for just women are more annoying for everyone. 

So much this.  I think it is a shame in our world that men are always men and women change once they get married. We should have titles like the men that are a constant.  To me, and I don't know if it is opening a can of worms, but it seems like Mrs. is a warning shot, to let people know a woman is married.... like it's something you need to know before engaging in a conversation with her. (Be careful how you talk to her... she's taken).   Why don't we do this with men? Why don't we need to know a man's marital status before approaching him?  It would make mailing out letters, invitations, and thank you cards sooo much easier if we had Mr. and Ms. Or if we got rid of titles. I would like to have a title for both men and women The Mighty Doucheanoe Smith (maybe that would be a little wordy on an invitation)

danamw

She must live a charmed life if a name on an envelope is all she can find to get offended about.

mysticl

themuffinman16 said:

huskypuppy14 said:

I didn't take my husband's last name, but I don't care if we get correspondence to Mr. and Mrs. Joe Doe. I try to think of Mrs. like wife of, and I am his wife. 

I actually get more annoyed seeing my first name with his last name, because that's not my name, but whatever. And I don't think anyone sends mail to Mrs. Joe Doe (alone) anymore, at least not in my circle. Now, maybe an older lady would prefer that, and that is her choice, but it's certainly not common even if it's proper etiquette.

I really would like to get rid of the Mrs. and Miss titles and just use Ms. all the time. I think marital status titles for just women are more annoying for everyone. 

So much this.  I think it is a shame in our world that men are always men and women change once they get married. We should have titles like the men that are a constant.  To me, and I don't know if it is opening a can of worms, but it seems like Mrs. is a warning shot, to let people know a woman is married.... like it's something you need to know before engaging in a conversation with her. (Be careful how you talk to her... she's taken).   Why don't we do this with men? Why don't we need to know a man's marital status before approaching him?  It would make mailing out letters, invitations, and thank you cards sooo much easier if we had Mr. and Ms. Or if we got rid of titles. I would like to have a title for both men and women The Mighty Doucheanoe Smith (maybe that would be a little wordy on an invitation)

That is why Ms was introduced in the first place.  Unfortunately, somewhere along the line some people started thinking it meant a divorced woman so in some circles it became tied to marital status as well.  In my case I was taught you used it when you didn't know a woman's marital status.  

themuffinman16

I know, that's why they created Ms. But it should be the only title.  It would make everything so easy if we only had one title, just as the men only have Mr.

scrunchythief

danamw said:

She must live a charmed life if a name on an envelope is all she can find to get offended about.

Just because she is offended by this doesn't mean it's the biggest problem she has.  I really can't understand where this came from if you've read this whole thread.  For me, my worst experiences that were the result of sexism motivate me to speak out against it at every chance I get.  It's a systemic problem, so working on the very worst parts will not eliminate the causes.  Are they more important?  Yes, as I've said several times.  But if I only ever respond at the times someone's been raped or denied a job, then those problems will continue to exist because I'm doing nothing to address the thought processes underneath them.  

mysticl

themuffinman16 said:

I know, that's why they created Ms. But it should be the only title.  It would make everything so easy if we only had one title, just as the men only have Mr.

But people are so used to Mrs. and Miss that it's not that simple to change.  And some women don't want to be called Ms.  Like I said before some people  think a Ms is a divorced woman.  

Viczaesar

bubblegum1309 said:

I couldn't read this whole thing, but just wanted to say I am 27 and COULDN'T CARE LESS. As long as our name is spelled correctly, call me MRS his firstname his lastname all you want.

I guess I am just more secure in myself to not get all up in arms about this. Anyone that knows me and my husband knows he in no way owns me. We have a great partnership where we depend on each other greatly. To the OPs post about the friend's FB post, I would roll my eyes all day long at that BS and would likely unfriend/unfollow because I can only assume she posts all kind of obnoxious BS all the time.

Honestly I find it shocking how worked up everyone got all over this. I almost wish I had the time to read the whole thread but I think I got the gist! 

I think that's a shitty thing to say.  People who care more than you do about how they are addressed are less secure than you are?  Really?

Viczaesar

danamw said:

She must live a charmed life if a name on an envelope is all she can find to get offended about.

I would be offended at being addressed Mrs. Someone Else's Name, and yet that says nothing at all about whether that's the only thing in life I get offended about. 

Jen4948

danamw said:

She must live a charmed life if a name on an envelope is all she can find to get offended about.

How would you know if she lives a "charmed life" or what she can find to get offended about?  If she feels like getting offended by it, that's her privilege.

This whole post is very snarky and judgmental of you.  You didn't win any points with it except to be snide and hostile when it wasn't called for.  Not to mention, you got offended by it, so do you live a "charmed life" ? I would imagine not.

huskypuppy14

mysticl said:

themuffinman16 said:

I know, that's why they created Ms. But it should be the only title.  It would make everything so easy if we only had one title, just as the men only have Mr.

But people are so used to Mrs. and Miss that it's not that simple to change.  And some women don't want to be called Ms.  Like I said before some people  think a Ms is a divorced woman.  

And some people don't want to be called Mrs. or Miss. I hate when Ms. isn't an option: like on a survey or something. Miss, Mrs. or Mr. Those are the only options. Well I'm not either of those- well I guess I'm a Mrs. now, but I prefer Ms. because I didn't change my name when I got married. 

I think some people need to get with the times, and technically, every woman is a Ms. 

mysticl

huskypuppy14 said:

mysticl said:

themuffinman16 said:

I know, that's why they created Ms. But it should be the only title.  It would make everything so easy if we only had one title, just as the men only have Mr.

But people are so used to Mrs. and Miss that it's not that simple to change.  And some women don't want to be called Ms.  Like I said before some people  think a Ms is a divorced woman.  

And some people don't want to be called Mrs. or Miss. I hate when Ms. isn't an option: like on a survey or something. Miss, Mrs. or Mr. Those are the only options. Well I'm not either of those- well I guess I'm a Mrs. now, but I prefer Ms. because I didn't change my name when I got married. 

I think some people need to get with the times, and technically, every woman is a Ms. 

Very true.  I was just pointing out why it hasn't become universal yet.