Pre Nup agreements

wrigleyville

katiekessler123 said:

Clearly, some people believe in pre-nups, and some don't, and that's ok because everyone can have their own opinions.  I have to say though, a lot of the examples for divorce that are being thrown out on this board are really extreme, while most of the people I know that have been divorced got divorced basically because they couldn't work it out (NOT because someone was paralyzed in a car accident, or one spouse tried to murder another spouse). 

Obviously, each marriage is private and no one truly knows the details of another person's marriage, but my friends that have been divorced were basically divorced for these reasons: one person wanted children and the other did not (didn't discuss that before getting married), one person was a crazy spender and the other a saver (again, didn't work that one out before getting married), one person, who had a history of cheating, cheated on his spouse (the signs were there before getting married).  

We provided those examples because several people were like, "La la la... we'd work through that because we took vows... la la la... not going to happen because we've already discussed these issues..." Plus, a few of my examples mirrored yours. I did mention the kids thing and the cheating thing. It wasn't all gloom and doom.

We were simply pointing out that there are situations where you really can't just suck it up and work through it, unlike the issues they claim would never happen because of their magical vows.

larrygaga

MagicInk said:

In my state, currently, my marriage is recognized as legally valid. Good. But in, lets say Texas, not so much. So if Wifey and I were to move to Texas for some reason and while in Texas we realized our marriage was not working out and we wanted to end things, this would get very motherfucking complicated. 

Because the federal government says we are married. But the state of Texas says were little more then roommates. 

A prenup could streamline and make things easier. And once Fufu arrives, it'll be even more complicated. In fact Wifey wants to update our paperwork to refelect that I'm the other intended parent. Because, ok check this out, if lets say Wifey goes through the pregnancy the worst most awfulest thing ever happens and she passes away during child birth, but Fufu survives. I currently have no legal right to Fufu. She's not biologically mine and you can't adopt a child until it is born. So...I'm just Fufu's mom's wife. I'm Fufu's step-mom at best in our current state, and in Texas I've got as much legal right as the lady in the next bed. Fufu would actually go to her biological father, aka: the sperm donor. Because he has more legal rights then I do.

In California I'd be considered the intended parent since I impregnated Wifey. In Arizona, I'm step-mom. In Texas, I'm the nice lady who lives with them.

Pre-nups and wills aren't just about $$ and divorce. We're having it stated in as many places as possilbe, as many times as possible, I'm Fufu's other mother. In our prenup it states something along the lines (in legalese) "Any children conceived during the marriage of Fiona and Sophia are intended to be raised by both Fiona and Sophia". It might not hold up in every court, but it is something. 

it's not legal where i live either

We're getting there! 

VulgarGirl

larrygaga said:

MagicInk said:

In my state, currently, my marriage is recognized as legally valid. Good. But in, lets say Texas, not so much. So if Wifey and I were to move to Texas for some reason and while in Texas we realized our marriage was not working out and we wanted to end things, this would get very motherfucking complicated. 

Because the federal government says we are married. But the state of Texas says were little more then roommates. 

A prenup could streamline and make things easier. And once Fufu arrives, it'll be even more complicated. In fact Wifey wants to update our paperwork to refelect that I'm the other intended parent. Because, ok check this out, if lets say Wifey goes through the pregnancy the worst most awfulest thing ever happens and she passes away during child birth, but Fufu survives. I currently have no legal right to Fufu. She's not biologically mine and you can't adopt a child until it is born. So...I'm just Fufu's mom's wife. I'm Fufu's step-mom at best in our current state, and in Texas I've got as much legal right as the lady in the next bed. Fufu would actually go to her biological father, aka: the sperm donor. Because he has more legal rights then I do.

In California I'd be considered the intended parent since I impregnated Wifey. In Arizona, I'm step-mom. In Texas, I'm the nice lady who lives with them.

Pre-nups and wills aren't just about $$ and divorce. We're having it stated in as many places as possilbe, as many times as possible, I'm Fufu's other mother. In our prenup it states something along the lines (in legalese) "Any children conceived during the marriage of Fiona and Sophia are intended to be raised by both Fiona and Sophia". It might not hold up in every court, but it is something. 

it's not legal where i live either

We're getting there! 

I swear Texas will be the last state to legalize it just because they are Texas. They couldn't be the first so damn it they'll be the last!

I was thinking of Michigan but then I remembered they are currently doing things up there. You and Lolo gotta yell at some people up there. Apparently peditricions can refuse to treat babies of gay people because gay people make them feel weird in their bathing suit areas. Or whateverthefuck the dumbass reason was.

katiekessler123

Wrigleyville- I understood the point of your post. But, I was more making the point that from the people/friends that I've witnessed that have gotten divorced, many of those instances occurred because the couple got married, had huge gaps in what lifestyles they preferred, thought that marriage would bridge the gap, but **surprise** it didn't. 

I'm making the point that if you go into a marriage with the big ideas already ironed out, you should have no reason to think that divorce may happen. I just feel like a lot of people (not on this board or site necessarily, but in life in general) think of marriage like dating, as in, I hope it works out, but if not we can always get divorced.  I simply don't feel that way.

Some people on this post were making points such as, "what if your husband turns into a crazy person and tries to kill you".  In all probability, that's not going to happen.  What happens is you go into marriage with completely different views on life, and then you suddenly find yourself fighting all of the time, and then comes the divorce.

I understand that a lot of people are on 2nd marriages, or have come into marriage with children, and for that I can understand why someone might want a pre-nup.  My husband and I are in neither of those situations, and quite frankly, I have faith in our marriage.

Fran1985

I was about to write what @charcoalandblush wrote- you already have one, its the laws of divorce where you are living. Now, like the point that was made, this certainly doesn't mean you should rely on that for your prenup. Its just for those people saying "Oh I dont want one because I dont want to plan for divorce." A prenup is planning for divorce as much as living in a state that allows divorce is. 

 So if you have assets you are bringing in, shouldn't you both decided that plan together? Because whether you like it or not, there already is a plan in place for your divorce. A prenup just allows couples to take control of that plan. I think for many couples, they are unnecessary. But especially for second marriages, same sex marriages, couples with kids, planning to have kids, etc, its really important to think about getting one.

We didn't get one by the way. I just hate the thinking that signing one or thinking about one is "planning an exit strategy." Its not, its just saying this is what we want it to be, instead of the one that is currently in place. 

holyguacamole79

Fran1985 said:

I was about to write what @charcoalandblush wrote- you already have one, its the laws of divorce where you are living. Now, like the point that was made, this certainly doesn't mean you should rely on that for your prenup. Its just for those people saying "Oh I dont want one because I dont want to plan for divorce." A prenup is planning for divorce as much as living in a state that allows divorce is. 

 So if you have assets you are bringing in, shouldn't you both decided that plan together? Because whether you like it or not, there already is a plan in place for your divorce. A prenup just allows couples to take control of that plan. I think for many couples, they are unnecessary. But especially for second marriages, same sex marriages, couples with kids, planning to have kids, etc, its really important to think about getting one.

We didn't get one by the way. I just hate the thinking that signing one or thinking about one is "planning an exit strategy." Its not, its just saying this is what we want it to be, instead of the one that is currently in place. 

Honest question... are there states that don't allow divorce?

charcoalandblush

holyguacamole79 said:

Fran1985 said:

I was about to write what @charcoalandblush wrote- you already have one, its the laws of divorce where you are living. Now, like the point that was made, this certainly doesn't mean you should rely on that for your prenup. Its just for those people saying "Oh I dont want one because I dont want to plan for divorce." A prenup is planning for divorce as much as living in a state that allows divorce is. 

 So if you have assets you are bringing in, shouldn't you both decided that plan together? Because whether you like it or not, there already is a plan in place for your divorce. A prenup just allows couples to take control of that plan. I think for many couples, they are unnecessary. But especially for second marriages, same sex marriages, couples with kids, planning to have kids, etc, its really important to think about getting one.

We didn't get one by the way. I just hate the thinking that signing one or thinking about one is "planning an exit strategy." Its not, its just saying this is what we want it to be, instead of the one that is currently in place. 

Honest question... are there states that don't allow divorce?

I'm not sure if there are states that don't allow divorce, but I'm almost positive that there are still states that don't allow no-fault divorce.

Fran1985

holyguacamole79 said:

Fran1985 said:

I was about to write what @charcoalandblush wrote- you already have one, its the laws of divorce where you are living. Now, like the point that was made, this certainly doesn't mean you should rely on that for your prenup. Its just for those people saying "Oh I dont want one because I dont want to plan for divorce." A prenup is planning for divorce as much as living in a state that allows divorce is. 

 So if you have assets you are bringing in, shouldn't you both decided that plan together? Because whether you like it or not, there already is a plan in place for your divorce. A prenup just allows couples to take control of that plan. I think for many couples, they are unnecessary. But especially for second marriages, same sex marriages, couples with kids, planning to have kids, etc, its really important to think about getting one.

We didn't get one by the way. I just hate the thinking that signing one or thinking about one is "planning an exit strategy." Its not, its just saying this is what we want it to be, instead of the one that is currently in place. 

Honest question... are there states that don't allow divorce?

Nope- that's my point. You've already planned for it by living in a state that allows divorce. A prenup is not doing anything more than that. 

larrygaga

MagicInk said:

larrygaga said:

MagicInk said:

In my state, currently, my marriage is recognized as legally valid. Good. But in, lets say Texas, not so much. So if Wifey and I were to move to Texas for some reason and while in Texas we realized our marriage was not working out and we wanted to end things, this would get very motherfucking complicated. 

Because the federal government says we are married. But the state of Texas says were little more then roommates. 

A prenup could streamline and make things easier. And once Fufu arrives, it'll be even more complicated. In fact Wifey wants to update our paperwork to refelect that I'm the other intended parent. Because, ok check this out, if lets say Wifey goes through the pregnancy the worst most awfulest thing ever happens and she passes away during child birth, but Fufu survives. I currently have no legal right to Fufu. She's not biologically mine and you can't adopt a child until it is born. So...I'm just Fufu's mom's wife. I'm Fufu's step-mom at best in our current state, and in Texas I've got as much legal right as the lady in the next bed. Fufu would actually go to her biological father, aka: the sperm donor. Because he has more legal rights then I do.

In California I'd be considered the intended parent since I impregnated Wifey. In Arizona, I'm step-mom. In Texas, I'm the nice lady who lives with them.

Pre-nups and wills aren't just about $$ and divorce. We're having it stated in as many places as possilbe, as many times as possible, I'm Fufu's other mother. In our prenup it states something along the lines (in legalese) "Any children conceived during the marriage of Fiona and Sophia are intended to be raised by both Fiona and Sophia". It might not hold up in every court, but it is something. 

it's not legal where i live either

We're getting there! 

I swear Texas will be the last state to legalize it just because they are Texas. They couldn't be the first so damn it they'll be the last!

I was thinking of Michigan but then I remembered they are currently doing things up there. You and Lolo gotta yell at some people up there. Apparently peditricions can refuse to treat babies of gay people because gay people make them feel weird in their bathing suit areas. Or whateverthefuck the dumbass reason was.

Yeah Michigan can be pretty backwards. We do have our own little bible belt!

holyguacamole79

Fran1985 said:

holyguacamole79 said:

Fran1985 said:

I was about to write what @charcoalandblush wrote- you already have one, its the laws of divorce where you are living. Now, like the point that was made, this certainly doesn't mean you should rely on that for your prenup. Its just for those people saying "Oh I dont want one because I dont want to plan for divorce." A prenup is planning for divorce as much as living in a state that allows divorce is. 

 So if you have assets you are bringing in, shouldn't you both decided that plan together? Because whether you like it or not, there already is a plan in place for your divorce. A prenup just allows couples to take control of that plan. I think for many couples, they are unnecessary. But especially for second marriages, same sex marriages, couples with kids, planning to have kids, etc, its really important to think about getting one.

We didn't get one by the way. I just hate the thinking that signing one or thinking about one is "planning an exit strategy." Its not, its just saying this is what we want it to be, instead of the one that is currently in place. 

Honest question... are there states that don't allow divorce?

Nope- that's my point. You've already planned for it by living in a state that allows divorce. A prenup is not doing anything more than that. 

That makes absolutely no sense. If that's the case, why bother with a prenup, then?

Jells2dot0

 

holyguacamole79 said:

Fran1985 said:

holyguacamole79 said:

Fran1985 said:

I was about to write what @charcoalandblush wrote- you already have one, its the laws of divorce where you are living. Now, like the point that was made, this certainly doesn't mean you should rely on that for your prenup. Its just for those people saying "Oh I dont want one because I dont want to plan for divorce." A prenup is planning for divorce as much as living in a state that allows divorce is. 

 So if you have assets you are bringing in, shouldn't you both decided that plan together? Because whether you like it or not, there already is a plan in place for your divorce. A prenup just allows couples to take control of that plan. I think for many couples, they are unnecessary. But especially for second marriages, same sex marriages, couples with kids, planning to have kids, etc, its really important to think about getting one.

We didn't get one by the way. I just hate the thinking that signing one or thinking about one is "planning an exit strategy." Its not, its just saying this is what we want it to be, instead of the one that is currently in place. 

Honest question... are there states that don't allow divorce?

Nope- that's my point. You've already planned for it by living in a state that allows divorce. A prenup is not doing anything more than that. 

That makes absolutely no sense. If that's the case, why bother with a prenup, then?

When you get divorced, a lot goes into trying to divide up the assets. You can spend years and thousands of dollars on lawyers dividing everything up. A prenup tells the courts how you want it divided up.

I know in my case, I did not sign my prenup in anticipation of divorce. I signed it to state, on record, our intentions for all of our assets. Regardless of the religious component of marriage, there is also a legal component. It's really a contract. The prenup outlines the contract.

bethsmiles

katiekessler123 said:

Wrigleyville- I understood the point of your post. But, I was more making the point that from the people/friends that I've witnessed that have gotten divorced, many of those instances occurred because the couple got married, had huge gaps in what lifestyles they preferred, thought that marriage would bridge the gap, but **surprise** it didn't. 

I'm making the point that if you go into a marriage with the big ideas already ironed out, you should have no reason to think that divorce may happen. I just feel like a lot of people (not on this board or site necessarily, but in life in general) think of marriage like dating, as in, I hope it works out, but if not we can always get divorced.  I simply don't feel that way.

Some people on this post were making points such as, "what if your husband turns into a crazy person and tries to kill you".  In all probability, that's not going to happen.  What happens is you go into marriage with completely different views on life, and then you suddenly find yourself fighting all of the time, and then comes the divorce.

I understand that a lot of people are on 2nd marriages, or have come into marriage with children, and for that I can understand why someone might want a pre-nup.  My husband and I are in neither of those situations, and quite frankly, I have faith in our marriage.

That's so interesting that you knew all the intimate details of your friends' marriages/divorces so you can simplify and point out the exact, one reason they got divorced and pass judgment. Clearly way up on your high horse you can see and know all about other's relationships and know that yours is just so much stronger and better.

Do you realize how presumptuous your post is? You don't think your friends had faith in their marriages when it started out? Maybe they did talk about those things and someone changed their minds. That happens or maybe their relationship is just a little more complex than you are making it.

And to the bolded - It's not at all unheard of for abuse not to start until after marriage. It absolutely happens, even if you dated for years and lived together it happens.

holyguacamole79

Jells2dot0 said:

 

holyguacamole79 said:

Fran1985 said:

holyguacamole79 said:

Fran1985 said:

I was about to write what @charcoalandblush wrote- you already have one, its the laws of divorce where you are living. Now, like the point that was made, this certainly doesn't mean you should rely on that for your prenup. Its just for those people saying "Oh I dont want one because I dont want to plan for divorce." A prenup is planning for divorce as much as living in a state that allows divorce is. 

 So if you have assets you are bringing in, shouldn't you both decided that plan together? Because whether you like it or not, there already is a plan in place for your divorce. A prenup just allows couples to take control of that plan. I think for many couples, they are unnecessary. But especially for second marriages, same sex marriages, couples with kids, planning to have kids, etc, its really important to think about getting one.

We didn't get one by the way. I just hate the thinking that signing one or thinking about one is "planning an exit strategy." Its not, its just saying this is what we want it to be, instead of the one that is currently in place. 

Honest question... are there states that don't allow divorce?

Nope- that's my point. You've already planned for it by living in a state that allows divorce. A prenup is not doing anything more than that. 

That makes absolutely no sense. If that's the case, why bother with a prenup, then?

When you get divorced, a lot goes into trying to divide up the assets. You can spend years and thousands of dollars on lawyers dividing everything up. A prenup tells the courts how you want it divided up.

I know in my case, I did not sign my prenup in anticipation of divorce. I signed it to state, on record, our intentions for all of our assets. Regardless of the religious component of marriage, there is also a legal component. It's really a contract. The prenup outlines the contract.

I get that, Jells.  I am just not understanding Fran's assessment that I'm already "planning for divorce" by living in a state that allows one. 

katiekessler123

You very much missed the point of my post.  Most of the people I know that have been divorced (and yes, close friends of mine that have disclosed many details to me) were divorced because of extreme differences that were not resolved before marriage, NOT because of some crazy scenario depicted by other posters.  A few were very young when first married and multiple friends are now remarried later in life and much happier.

bethsmiles

katiekessler123 said:

You very much missed the point of my post.  Most of the people I know that have been divorced (and yes, close friends of mine that have disclosed many details to me) were divorced because of extreme differences that were not resolved before marriage, NOT because of some crazy scenario depicted by other posters.  A few were very young when first married and multiple friends are now remarried later in life and much happier.

I promise I didn't miss the point of your post. But frankly your flippant attitude toward divorce is offensive. The way your attitude comes across is "Well people who got divorced just should never have gotten married in the first place" and if we all had crystal balls I'm sure the divorce rate would plummet but no matter how much you believe in your marriage, you do.not.know.the.future.

And just because your friends told you details doesn't mean you know everything about the divorce. And it sure as hell doesn't mean you know everything about every divorce. 

katiekessler123

I don't have a flippant attitude toward divorce, in fact, I have quite the opposite attitude toward divorce. Which might be why I don't like the idea of pre-nups in the first place.  However, my attitude is that you should have serious issues worked out BEFORE marriage.  If that's the wrong attitude to have, then color me baffled. 

Before I met my husband I dated another man for several years.  I ended up breaking it off because we did not have the same viewpoints on how to deal with money.  Namely, I want to save and live below my means and he was a huge spender.  I knew that would be a huge issue in our marriage, so instead of marrying him and hoping everything would work out, I broke it off.

Sugargirl1019

I'm glad I read through here, because it has made me view pre-nups differently. Now I understand them as "changing what your state law has in place just in case". I see my state would do this if I got divorced, I'm not happy with that so let's rewrite the law for ourselves". That's basically what it is.

I don't have a prenuptial, but I'm glad I have a different view and understanding of it now.

Jells2dot0

katiekessler123 said:

I don't have a flippant attitude toward divorce, in fact, I have quite the opposite attitude toward divorce. Which might be why I don't like the idea of pre-nups in the first place.  However, my attitude is that you should have serious issues worked out BEFORE marriage.  If that's the wrong attitude to have, then color me baffled. 

I think the pint trying to be made is that in a perfect world, all serious issues should be worked out prior to marriage. However, nothing is perfect.

When I got married to my first husband, I was adamant that I would never have kids. We had many discussions about it and the outcome was always the same- we would not be having kids. Well, guess what? My ex began to change his mind. That is a deal breaker for me. It's one of a few reasons we got divorced. Another reason could have been prevented perhaps- I was 24 when we married. Maybe I could have waited, but in fact, I did wait- we were engaged for two years prior to getting married.

Trust me, I'm not taking any of this personally, but as someone who has been through divorce and who is married to someone who has also been through divorce, you sometimes cannot predict problems or fix them prior to getting married.

katiekessler123

Jells- yes, totally understand what you're saying and I agree that sometimes things change. 

However, I'm sure we've all seen couples that have huge red flags in their relationships, but still get married.  Those are more the couples I am referring to.  In fact, I've seen multiple posts about red flag couples on the knot (usually written by someone who has a friend in a "red flag" relationship and wants to know what to do about it).

Fran1985

I was about to write what @charcoalandblush wrote- you already have one, its the laws of divorce where you are living. Now, like the point that was made, this certainly doesn't mean you should rely on that for your prenup. Its just for those people saying "Oh I dont want one because I dont want to plan for divorce." A prenup is planning for divorce as much as living in a state that allows divorce is. 

 So if you have assets you are bringing in, shouldn't you both decided that plan together? Because whether you like it or not, there already is a plan in place for your divorce. A prenup just allows couples to take control of that plan. I think for many couples, they are unnecessary. But especially for second marriages, same sex marriages, couples with kids, planning to have kids, etc, its really important to think about getting one.

We didn't get one by the way. I just hate the thinking that signing one or thinking about one is "planning an exit strategy." Its not, its just saying this is what we want it to be, instead of the one that is currently in place. 

Honest question... are there states that don't allow divorce?

Nope- that's my point. You've already planned for it by living in a state that allows divorce. A prenup is not doing anything more than that. 

That makes absolutely no sense. If that's the case, why bother with a prenup, then?

A prenup changes that state arrangement. There is a divorce plan already in place for you and your husband. You agreed to that divorce plan by getting legally married. So if you are in a no fault divorce state, the laws may say that everything is split 50-50. With a prenup you are saying we don't want 50-50, we want (for example) wife's inheritance to stay with her 100% and be passed down to our children if she dies. A prenup is not "planning for divorce" or setting up an easy way out. It is simply a legal document.

holyguacamole79

@Fran1985, I disagree.  But I don't think we are going to change each other's minds, so I'll just wish you a good weekend.

beethery

Fran1985 said:

holyguacamole79 said:

Fran1985 said:

holyguacamole79 said:

Fran1985 said:

I was about to write what @charcoalandblush wrote- you already have one, its the laws of divorce where you are living. Now, like the point that was made, this certainly doesn't mean you should rely on that for your prenup. Its just for those people saying "Oh I dont want one because I dont want to plan for divorce." A prenup is planning for divorce as much as living in a state that allows divorce is. 

 So if you have assets you are bringing in, shouldn't you both decided that plan together? Because whether you like it or not, there already is a plan in place for your divorce. A prenup just allows couples to take control of that plan. I think for many couples, they are unnecessary. But especially for second marriages, same sex marriages, couples with kids, planning to have kids, etc, its really important to think about getting one.

We didn't get one by the way. I just hate the thinking that signing one or thinking about one is "planning an exit strategy." Its not, its just saying this is what we want it to be, instead of the one that is currently in place. 

Honest question... are there states that don't allow divorce?

Nope- that's my point. You've already planned for it by living in a state that allows divorce. A prenup is not doing anything more than that. 

That makes absolutely no sense. If that's the case, why bother with a prenup, then?

A prenup changes that state arrangement. There is a divorce plan already in place for you and your husband. You agreed to that divorce plan by getting legally married. So if you are in a no fault divorce state, the laws may say that everything is split 50-50. With a prenup you are saying we don't want 50-50, we want (for example) wife's inheritance to stay with her 100% and be passed down to our children if she dies. A prenup is not "planning for divorce" or setting up an easy way out. It is simply a legal document.

Logic: YOU HAS IT.

(another reason I need to mention yet again how much I fucking love youaaaahhhhh)

Fran1985

@Fran1985, I disagree.  But I don't think we are going to change each other's minds, so I'll just wish you a good weekend.

I am a little confused by what part you disagree with. Like I said, I didn't get a prenup - its a perfectly valid choice to not get one. So we actually do agree there that prenups weren't right for us. But factually, there is a plan for your divorce already in place. You are choosing to never use it, which is fine. People who sign prenups are also choosing not to use it. Tons of people sign prenups and never use them. People who sign prenups and people who don't but get legally married are equal in terms of "planning for divorce." Either way, people just need to make the decision that's right for them.

Fran1985

I was about to write what @charcoalandblush wrote- you already have one, its the laws of divorce where you are living. Now, like the point that was made, this certainly doesn't mean you should rely on that for your prenup. Its just for those people saying "Oh I dont want one because I dont want to plan for divorce." A prenup is planning for divorce as much as living in a state that allows divorce is. 

 So if you have assets you are bringing in, shouldn't you both decided that plan together? Because whether you like it or not, there already is a plan in place for your divorce. A prenup just allows couples to take control of that plan. I think for many couples, they are unnecessary. But especially for second marriages, same sex marriages, couples with kids, planning to have kids, etc, its really important to think about getting one.

We didn't get one by the way. I just hate the thinking that signing one or thinking about one is "planning an exit strategy." Its not, its just saying this is what we want it to be, instead of the one that is currently in place. 

Honest question... are there states that don't allow divorce?

Nope- that's my point. You've already planned for it by living in a state that allows divorce. A prenup is not doing anything more than that. 

That makes absolutely no sense. If that's the case, why bother with a prenup, then?

A prenup changes that state arrangement. There is a divorce plan already in place for you and your husband. You agreed to that divorce plan by getting legally married. So if you are in a no fault divorce state, the laws may say that everything is split 50-50. With a prenup you are saying we don't want 50-50, we want (for example) wife's inheritance to stay with her 100% and be passed down to our children if she dies. A prenup is not "planning for divorce" or setting up an easy way out. It is simply a legal document.

Logic: YOU HAS IT.

(another reason I need to mention yet again how much I fucking love youaaaahhhhh)

love you boo

Jells2dot0

Fran1985 said:

holyguacamole79 said:

Fran1985 said:

holyguacamole79 said:

Fran1985 said:

I was about to write what @charcoalandblush wrote- you already have one, its the laws of divorce where you are living. Now, like the point that was made, this certainly doesn't mean you should rely on that for your prenup. Its just for those people saying "Oh I dont want one because I dont want to plan for divorce." A prenup is planning for divorce as much as living in a state that allows divorce is. 

 So if you have assets you are bringing in, shouldn't you both decided that plan together? Because whether you like it or not, there already is a plan in place for your divorce. A prenup just allows couples to take control of that plan. I think for many couples, they are unnecessary. But especially for second marriages, same sex marriages, couples with kids, planning to have kids, etc, its really important to think about getting one.

We didn't get one by the way. I just hate the thinking that signing one or thinking about one is "planning an exit strategy." Its not, its just saying this is what we want it to be, instead of the one that is currently in place. 

Honest question... are there states that don't allow divorce?

Nope- that's my point. You've already planned for it by living in a state that allows divorce. A prenup is not doing anything more than that. 

That makes absolutely no sense. If that's the case, why bother with a prenup, then?

A prenup changes that state arrangement. There is a divorce plan already in place for you and your husband. You agreed to that divorce plan by getting legally married. So if you are in a no fault divorce state, the laws may say that everything is split 50-50. With a prenup you are saying we don't want 50-50, we want (for example) wife's inheritance to stay with her 100% and be passed down to our children if she dies. A prenup is not "planning for divorce" or setting up an easy way out. It is simply a legal document.

QFT. This is saying what I was trying to say, but 100X better.

 

A marriage is a legal contract and can be a religious one too. However, at the root, it's a civil legal contract. The existence of a prenup does not plan for divorce, but it sets up how you wish to execute your contract. Just like we have wills set up to execute our estate in the event of death. My prenup does dictate what will happen if we happen to get divorced, but it also outlines how we choose to set up our finances/assets/debts/estates DURING our marriage.

holyguacamole79

Fran1985 said:

holyguacamole79 said:

@Fran1985, I disagree.  But I don't think we are going to change each other's minds, so I'll just wish you a good weekend.

I am a little confused by what part you disagree with. Like I said, I didn't get a prenup - its a perfectly valid choice to not get one. So we actually do agree there that prenups weren't right for us. But factually, there is a plan for your divorce already in place. You are choosing to never use it, which is fine. People who sign prenups are also choosing not to use it. Tons of people sign prenups and never use them. People who sign prenups and people who don't but get legally married are equal in terms of "planning for divorce." Either way, people just need to make the decision that's right for them.

Let me clarify - I personally think it is more than "just a legal document".  But I know that I see things differently than many of the people around here.  The rest of your "argument" (I put that in quotes because I don't think we are arguing, just discussing) is accurate; I only disagree with that one part.  But I view marriage more as a sacramental covenant than a legal contract, hence my different opinion.

I also agree that each couple needs to make a decision based on what is best for them. I recognize that not all prenups are "In case we get divorced, wife gets x and husband gets y".  I recognize that there are many variations; I'm just referring to the most generic type.

Fran1985

@Fran1985, I disagree.  But I don't think we are going to change each other's minds, so I'll just wish you a good weekend.

I am a little confused by what part you disagree with. Like I said, I didn't get a prenup - its a perfectly valid choice to not get one. So we actually do agree there that prenups weren't right for us. But factually, there is a plan for your divorce already in place. You are choosing to never use it, which is fine. People who sign prenups are also choosing not to use it. Tons of people sign prenups and never use them. People who sign prenups and people who don't but get legally married are equal in terms of "planning for divorce." Either way, people just need to make the decision that's right for them.

Let me clarify - I personally think it is more than "just a legal document".  But I know that I see things differently than many of the people around here.  The rest of your "argument" (I put that in quotes because I don't think we are arguing, just discussing) is accurate; I only disagree with that one part.  But I view marriage more as a sacramental covenant than a legal contract, hence my different opinion.

I also agree that each couple needs to make a decision based on what is best for them. I recognize that not all prenups are "In case we get divorced, wife gets x and husband gets y".  I recognize that there are many variations; I'm just referring to the most generic type.

Oh I was talking about the prenup, not the marriage. The prenup is just a legal tool- no more or no less than the divorce laws of the state you reside in.

 I also think a marriage is more than just a legal contract (and I would actually say that most people here share that view..). Also catholic, also married in the church.

Jells2dot0

Slightly off topic, but I was curious, so I pulled up my prenup. I found the word "divorce" one time in the entire document. It was in reference to the one property we own with joint right of survivorship. It just says we split ownership in two in the event of a divorce. The rest of the document talks about how we file income taxes, what we deem community property during the marriage, how we manage our separate property, allowing gifts during the marriage (since we keep everything separate), and how we plan to distribute the estate in the event of death (also tying into wills). Just thought it was interesting for those who immediately think "divorce" when you hear prenup. Mine is very much tailored to what happens during the marriage rather than after.

 

ETA- clarity

holyguacamole79

Fran1985 said:

holyguacamole79 said:

Fran1985 said:

holyguacamole79 said:

@Fran1985, I disagree.  But I don't think we are going to change each other's minds, so I'll just wish you a good weekend.

I am a little confused by what part you disagree with. Like I said, I didn't get a prenup - its a perfectly valid choice to not get one. So we actually do agree there that prenups weren't right for us. But factually, there is a plan for your divorce already in place. You are choosing to never use it, which is fine. People who sign prenups are also choosing not to use it. Tons of people sign prenups and never use them. People who sign prenups and people who don't but get legally married are equal in terms of "planning for divorce." Either way, people just need to make the decision that's right for them.

Let me clarify - I personally think it is more than "just a legal document".  But I know that I see things differently than many of the people around here.  The rest of your "argument" (I put that in quotes because I don't think we are arguing, just discussing) is accurate; I only disagree with that one part.  But I view marriage more as a sacramental covenant than a legal contract, hence my different opinion.

I also agree that each couple needs to make a decision based on what is best for them. I recognize that not all prenups are "In case we get divorced, wife gets x and husband gets y".  I recognize that there are many variations; I'm just referring to the most generic type.

Oh I was talking about the prenup, not the marriage. The prenup is just a legal tool- no more or no less than the divorce laws of the state you reside in.

 I also think a marriage is more than just a legal contract (and I would actually say that most people here share that view..). Also catholic, also married in the church.

Right, I get that you were talking about that.  Maybe I'm not being totally clear.  Let me back up....

I see the pre-nup as more than just a legal document.  I live in Texas, and I have very little control over the marriage / divorce laws of our state.  The laws of the state never came into discussion when we decided against a pre-nup.  I realize that people may find this naïve, but my husband & I agreed during our engagement that divorce is not an option for us.  We agreed that a pre-nup was not necessary / appropriate for us for that reason.  We also didn't want to discuss what could / would happen if we divorced because we didn't want to even discuss that as an option.  So we (my husband & I) see the discussion of the pre-nup terms to be personally problematic for us. 

Here's where I disagree - the pre-nup is a choice that a couple makes.  As far as I know, straight couples generally don't decide to live in a certain state over another based on divorce laws.  (I recognize things are different for same-sex couples).  So, the laws of the state where the couple resides isn't something that a couple consciously decides. 

I hope this makes more sense.  I enjoy the discussion.

ashley8918

This whole "planning for divorce" argument doesn't make sense to me. I don't plan to ever have a heart attack, but I sure as hell have insurance to cover it JUST IN CASE. Pre-nups are the same thing. Insurance for the just in case.

And yes, while the ACT of a divorce is voluntary, many times the underlying cause is not. Just like a heart attack, no one plans for their spouse to start beating them, or to be cheated on, or to simply fall out of love. These things just happen sometimes.

If you have significant assets, children from a previous marriage, etc, I think that it's foolhardy to not even consider some just- in-case insurance (i.e. a pre-nup).