Emma Sulkowicz aka Mattress Girl

[Deleted User]

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sarahufl

pinkrevenge said:

You know this wasn't the first formal complaint about sexual harassment / assault he had? His first victim had to go through all his stalling bullshit, she won the case, but Columbia allows numerous trials, and he just went at her again and again to reverse the charges until she couldn't take going back to the student hearings anymore and the complaint was dropped.

The dude is a grade A piece of shit, and from the university standpoint - cap the appeals and make a record, dammit! According to your "records" this guy never bothered a single lady, when in fact he had MULTIPLE victims. All because he had the money to stall hearings and lawyer up. It's horse shit.

Not to defend (at all) but my understanding is that the other ones came up later, and Emma's was his first.

Actually, if you read the lawsuit, he alleges that she convinced the other women to report him as well.

FiancB

FWIW, one of my instructors is a nurse practitioner with a SANE certification (so she gets called up in the emergency room for rape kits and counseling) and she always said victim in class.  I don't know about when she's working with the person, but I'm having trouble thinking of a situation where, in talking to the person, she would feel the need to call them one or the other. She did talk about how as an NP, she is careful to never tell women to "just relax" as that is a trigger for many. Also mentioned that birth can also be really triggering. If I still had her for an instructor currently I would love to ask her about her thoughts on it. 

I have heard of people being encouraged to call themselves survivors over victims as it is more empowering but for staff it seems kind of odd. If I had to call them anything, I'd call them a person who was raped or assaulted, picking a label doesn't seem particularly conducive to counseling. For purpose of discussion or documentation or legalese, I'd be inclined to say victim. 

I've been a victim of assault. I'm not a survivor as my life was not in danger. To me, it kind of feeds the idea that the only real rape is violent rape typically done by a stranger. It kind of skips over the more likely scenario of being date rape or coercion. Survivors also tend to survive things like cancer or natural disasters or accidents that weren't really anyone's fault. A victim had a crime committed against them, which I feel is something that seems easily forgotten in rape cases over other crimes. 

arrippa

thisismynickname said:

MagicInk said:

Of course, because people are shitty, there people saying there was no rape, she's just doing for attention, blah de blah. 

---------box----------

Just to this point, SMH because who the hell would want to carry around a mattress and pretend to have been raped, for attention? Really? REALLY? 

I applaud her. 

I believe she was raped and carrying the mattress was an idea that she got from it. But I also heard that she got credit for a senior project called "Carrying That Weight" while carrying it.

mikenberger

sarahufl said:

pinkrevenge said:

You know this wasn't the first formal complaint about sexual harassment / assault he had? His first victim had to go through all his stalling bullshit, she won the case, but Columbia allows numerous trials, and he just went at her again and again to reverse the charges until she couldn't take going back to the student hearings anymore and the complaint was dropped.

The dude is a grade A piece of shit, and from the university standpoint - cap the appeals and make a record, dammit! According to your "records" this guy never bothered a single lady, when in fact he had MULTIPLE victims. All because he had the money to stall hearings and lawyer up. It's horse shit.

Not to defend (at all) but my understanding is that the other ones came up later, and Emma's was his first.

Actually, if you read the lawsuit, he alleges that she convinced the other women to report him as well.

You are defending and you've been defending. Just because you're throwing up "Hey! I'm not victim blaming but..." doesn't mean that's not exactly what you're doing. 

climbingsingle

mikenberger said:

sarahufl said:

pinkrevenge said:

You know this wasn't the first formal complaint about sexual harassment / assault he had? His first victim had to go through all his stalling bullshit, she won the case, but Columbia allows numerous trials, and he just went at her again and again to reverse the charges until she couldn't take going back to the student hearings anymore and the complaint was dropped.

The dude is a grade A piece of shit, and from the university standpoint - cap the appeals and make a record, dammit! According to your "records" this guy never bothered a single lady, when in fact he had MULTIPLE victims. All because he had the money to stall hearings and lawyer up. It's horse shit.

Not to defend (at all) but my understanding is that the other ones came up later, and Emma's was his first.

Actually, if you read the lawsuit, he alleges that she convinced the other women to report him as well.

You are defending and you've been defending. Just because you're throwing up "Hey! I'm not victim blaming but..." doesn't mean that's not exactly what you're doing. 

TRUTH. You're defending him, and it's really pissing me off. 

Emma was NOT the first. Please read that. It's written by his first accuser. 

http://jezebel.com/i-am-not-a-pretty-little-liar-1705996719

novella1186

Blergbot said:

I think both terms can be very charged. I identify as a survivor, but it also took me awhile before I could slap any sort of word on it.

I'm finding the debate on different terms really interesting. 

I don't identify as anything. For me personally, I WAS a victim of someone, and then I recovered and now I'm nothing. I don't carry a label with me because I feel like that would grant power to what he did; that I'm still carrying it with me so I still call it something. But also, to me, that happened in a different life time, to some other me. Maybe that's a weird way to think about it but one of the ways I moved past it was to stop identifying with it. And no, he was never charged. 

[Deleted User]

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sarahufl

climbingwife said:

mikenberger said:

sarahufl said:

pinkrevenge said:

You know this wasn't the first formal complaint about sexual harassment / assault he had? His first victim had to go through all his stalling bullshit, she won the case, but Columbia allows numerous trials, and he just went at her again and again to reverse the charges until she couldn't take going back to the student hearings anymore and the complaint was dropped.

The dude is a grade A piece of shit, and from the university standpoint - cap the appeals and make a record, dammit! According to your "records" this guy never bothered a single lady, when in fact he had MULTIPLE victims. All because he had the money to stall hearings and lawyer up. It's horse shit.

Not to defend (at all) but my understanding is that the other ones came up later, and Emma's was his first.

Actually, if you read the lawsuit, he alleges that she convinced the other women to report him as well.

You are defending and you've been defending. Just because you're throwing up "Hey! I'm not victim blaming but..." doesn't mean that's not exactly what you're doing. 

TRUTH. You're defending him, and it's really pissing me off. 

Emma was NOT the first. Please read that. It's written by his first accuser. 

http://jezebel.com/i-am-not-a-pretty-little-liar-1705996719

How am I defending him? I am merely stating facts and what I thought were the facts about the other accusers. I stand corrected about the part about the other women. But the first post I made about it were strictly facts- he is suing the university. I never said I stand by him.

redoryx

arrippa said:

thisismynickname said:

MagicInk said:

Of course, because people are shitty, there people saying there was no rape, she's just doing for attention, blah de blah. 

---------box----------

Just to this point, SMH because who the hell would want to carry around a mattress and pretend to have been raped, for attention? Really? REALLY? 

I applaud her. 

I believe she was raped and carrying the mattress was an idea that she got from it. But I also heard that she got credit for a senior project called "Carrying That Weight" while carrying it.

She's an art student, it's her thesis. That's what artists do -- they use their real life to inspire their art.

sarahufl

FiancB said:

FWIW, one of my instructors is a nurse practitioner with a SANE certification (so she gets called up in the emergency room for rape kits and counseling) and she always said victim in class.  I don't know about when she's working with the person, but I'm having trouble thinking of a situation where, in talking to the person, she would feel the need to call them one or the other. She did talk about how as an NP, she is careful to never tell women to "just relax" as that is a trigger for many. Also mentioned that birth can also be really triggering. If I still had her for an instructor currently I would love to ask her about her thoughts on it. 

I have heard of people being encouraged to call themselves survivors over victims as it is more empowering but for staff it seems kind of odd. If I had to call them anything, I'd call them a person who was raped or assaulted, picking a label doesn't seem particularly conducive to counseling. For purpose of discussion or documentation or legalese, I'd be inclined to say victim. 

I've been a victim of assault. I'm not a survivor as my life was not in danger. To me, it kind of feeds the idea that the only real rape is violent rape typically done by a stranger. It kind of skips over the more likely scenario of being date rape or coercion. Survivors also tend to survive things like cancer or natural disasters or accidents that weren't really anyone's fault. A victim had a crime committed against them, which I feel is something that seems easily forgotten in rape cases over other crimes. 

I don't think you generally use the term victim or survivor to someone. I spend a lot of hours in the ER with women who come in as a result of assault or rape. Often times, we don't talk much about it at all, and I would certainly never slap a label on them or tell them how to feel/talk about it. I just keep them company - a lot of it is so they know their rights (filing reports, what rape kits actually mean/tell you, etc).

arrippa

redoryx said:

arrippa said:

thisismynickname said:

MagicInk said:

Of course, because people are shitty, there people saying there was no rape, she's just doing for attention, blah de blah. 

---------box----------

Just to this point, SMH because who the hell would want to carry around a mattress and pretend to have been raped, for attention? Really? REALLY? 

I applaud her. 

I believe she was raped and carrying the mattress was an idea that she got from it. But I also heard that she got credit for a senior project called "Carrying That Weight" while carrying it.

She's an art student, it's her thesis. That's what artists do -- they use their real life to inspire their art.

I understand that. I was responding to @thisismynickname when she asked why someone would want to carry around the mattress. 

blabla89

novella1186 said:

Blergbot said:

I think both terms can be very charged. I identify as a survivor, but it also took me awhile before I could slap any sort of word on it.

I'm finding the debate on different terms really interesting. 

I don't identify as anything. For me personally, I WAS a victim of someone, and then I recovered and now I'm nothing. I don't carry a label with me because I feel like that would grant power to what he did; that I'm still carrying it with me so I still call it something. But also, to me, that happened in a different life time, to some other me. Maybe that's a weird way to think about it but one of the ways I moved past it was to stop identifying with it. And no, he was never charged. 

WHERE ARE YOU BOXES???

This totally makes sense to me. What happened to me one night at a party, I didn't want that to become part of my identity. I didn't tell many people because I didn't want to be thought of as a victim. I pretended it didn't happen, which probably wasn't the best way to deal. But now I'm neither a victim nor a survivor - I am a woman. I'm a wife, I have a career, friends and family and hobbies that I love. That's what defines me. Sexual assault happened to me, but I don't carry that label. (However this is only my personal stance and I do not apply it to anyone else.)

When I volunteered with an organization that cares for women who have escaped from commercial sexual exploitation, they were very strict about using "survivors" when talking about the women  they serve. And I can understand why: because it's empowering and it highlights the mission of equipping them to build healthy, successful lives. But I don't think you can tell an individual who's experienced sexual assault or exploitation how to think of themselves or what word to use. That is such a personal issue.

[Deleted User]

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sarahufl

pinkrevenge said:

Furthermore, so what if the other girls only stepped forward after her? It doesn't mean they're making it up.
Our justice system is notoriously bad for not taking victims of sexual assault seriously and for treating them horribly. It's not even a little bit unusual for victims to be too afraid / ashamed to come forward until one braver victim paves the way and inspired them.

If we really want to get into how absolutely disgusting the treatment of rape victims is, I can fully get down with that.

I never said they were- I just thought otherwise. As I mentioned a few posts up, I stand corrected. And I am very well aware of how bad our justice system (and apparently my own work place's conduct process) doesn't favor women in these cases.

I also said I support her project and have enjoyed seeing her interact with the other students on a daily basis. Not sure how this became me defending a rapist because I have never, not once done that.

sarahufl

sarahufl said:

pinkrevenge said:

Furthermore, so what if the other girls only stepped forward after her? It doesn't mean they're making it up.
Our justice system is notoriously bad for not taking victims of sexual assault seriously and for treating them horribly. It's not even a little bit unusual for victims to be too afraid / ashamed to come forward until one braver victim paves the way and inspired them.

If we really want to get into how absolutely disgusting the treatment of rape victims is, I can fully get down with that.

I never said they were- I just thought otherwise. As I mentioned a few posts up, I stand corrected. And I am very well aware of how bad our justice system (and apparently my own work place's conduct process) doesn't favor women in these cases. I said the University handled it poorly, not only at the time, but their reaction to it later with their required "courses" that the students felt were crap.

I also said I support her project and have enjoyed seeing her interact with the other students on a daily basis. Not sure how this became me defending a rapist because I have never, not once done that.

mikenberger

sarahufl said:

pinkrevenge said:

Furthermore, so what if the other girls only stepped forward after her? It doesn't mean they're making it up.
Our justice system is notoriously bad for not taking victims of sexual assault seriously and for treating them horribly. It's not even a little bit unusual for victims to be too afraid / ashamed to come forward until one braver victim paves the way and inspired them.

If we really want to get into how absolutely disgusting the treatment of rape victims is, I can fully get down with that.

I never said they were- I just thought otherwise. As I mentioned a few posts up, I stand corrected. And I am very well aware of how bad our justice system (and apparently my own work place's conduct process) doesn't favor women in these cases.

I also said I support her project and have enjoyed seeing her interact with the other students on a daily basis. Not sure how this became me defending a rapist because I have never, not once done that.

Not gonna let the devil steal my joy today.... 

You just bring your comments up to those girls you work with at the rape center. See what they think about your commentary. 

sarahufl

mikenberger said:

sarahufl said:

pinkrevenge said:

Furthermore, so what if the other girls only stepped forward after her? It doesn't mean they're making it up.
Our justice system is notoriously bad for not taking victims of sexual assault seriously and for treating them horribly. It's not even a little bit unusual for victims to be too afraid / ashamed to come forward until one braver victim paves the way and inspired them.

If we really want to get into how absolutely disgusting the treatment of rape victims is, I can fully get down with that.

I never said they were- I just thought otherwise. As I mentioned a few posts up, I stand corrected. And I am very well aware of how bad our justice system (and apparently my own work place's conduct process) doesn't favor women in these cases.

I also said I support her project and have enjoyed seeing her interact with the other students on a daily basis. Not sure how this became me defending a rapist because I have never, not once done that.

Not gonna let the devil steal my joy today.... 

You just bring your comments up to those girls you work with at the rape center. See what they think about your commentary. 

If I was having a conversation about campus rape and how various universities deal with it, I certainly would talk to my fellow volunteers in the same manner. By trying to understand all of the elements of the case, it doesn't mean you are defending anyone. It means you are trying to understand all of the processes that lead people to a certain point. By understanding the faults in the legal process or the university conduct process, you can work to make it better.

To state that someone is suing the university isn't an opinion, it is a fact.

climbingsingle

I think the problem started with this:

I'm not victim blaming but...

I'm not defending him but...

kaos16

This is likely going to be a very unpopular post. . . . but i'm putting it out there.  

I would be interested to see the outcome of the suit that the alleged rapist has against the university.  I would also be very interested to see the reasons that the DA's office chose not to pursue charges against him.  

It seems like there is a lot to this case that isn't public knowledge that could probably be very insightful.

Admittedly, as an attorney who has prosecuted rape cases, and who has dismissed made up rape cases I am quite cynical.

FYI, for those that say the alleged rapist is using her sexual history against her, in NY there are protections, at least in criminal trials, where a defense attorney is forbidden from using a victim/survivor's past sexual history against them.  They are commonly referred to as Rape Shield Laws.  While he can allege these things in a suit against the school, if he would have been charged with raping her and took the case to trial there is no way his attorney would have been able to question her about her sexual history with him or anyone else. A victim/survivor's sexual history has NOTHING to do at all with whether they were raped in the case being prosecuted.

sarahufl

climbingwife said:

I think the problem started with this:

I'm not victim blaming but...

I'm not defending him but...

That comes from having to generally tip toe around a lot of people on TK.

If you read the content of the post, I never remotely defended him. How is anything I posted victim blaming? I posted that I support her, I don't support the university, and that I think her project has brought students together.

[Deleted User]

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novella1186

kaos16 said:

This is likely going to be a very unpopular post. . . . but i'm putting it out there.  

I would be interested to see the outcome of the suit that the alleged rapist has against the university.  I would also be very interested to see the reasons that the DA's office chose not to pursue charges against him.  

It seems like there is a lot to this case that isn't public knowledge that could probably be very insightful.

Admittedly, as an attorney who has prosecuted rape cases, and who has dismissed made up rape cases I am quite cynical.

FYI, for those that say the alleged rapist is using her sexual history against her, in NY there are protections, at least in criminal trials, where a defense attorney is forbidden from using a victim/survivor's past sexual history against them.  They are commonly referred to as Rape Shield Laws.  While he can allege these things in a suit against the school, if he would have been charged with raping her and took the case to trial there is no way his attorney would have been able to question her about her sexual history with him or anyone else. A victim/survivor's sexual history has NOTHING to do at all with whether they were raped in the case being prosecuted.

We did a segment on rape in my Women's Psychology class. I'm by no means an expert on any of this, at all, but I know not every state has the same Rape Shield laws. A lot of times, a victims sexual history IS used against them. 

I remember learning about the percentage of rapes that actually lead to a conviction, and it is a teeny tiny percent. A lot of rapes are never reported, and those that are reported likely won't make it to court, and those that do make it to court likely won't end in a guilty verdict. 

In a lot of cases, it's the victim's word against the rapist's, and that's the only evidence, so you can't really prosecute on that. If the victim was able to get a rape kit done, the presence of the rapist's sperm still isn't enough because the rapist can argue that the sex was consensual. If there's bruising and tearing, the rapist can argue that the victim likes rough sex. If they had a relationship, the rapist can use their sexual history to say "we had sex all the time, every time was consensual, we had rough sex all the time, the bruising means nothing" etc, and then the case gets thrown out. 

Or the victim is so humiliated about having all their sexual details and history paraded around in court that they don't move forward with it. 

I mean, it seems disgustingly easy for a rapist to get away with it, because of all these factors that make it almost impossible to end with a guilty verdict. 

When I was assaulted, the guy told everyone that I was drunk and begging for sex, and that I attacked him. Never mind that he outweighed me by well over 100 pounds and was much bigger than me. I attacked him. And people believed him. He ran around telling this story, and I was too humiliated and disgusted to talk about it at all so I didn't. Since he was the one shouting a story from the rooftops, he was the one who was believed. One of my best friends even said she believed, because he said "I swear to God it's true!" Well he swears to God. That makes it the truth duh. 

sarahufl

pinkrevenge said:

I know it's a very American thing to always hear both sides of a story and attempt to give them equal merit. But while that's a nice idea that comes from a good place, we really need to break that habit. Not every side has equal merit.

Sometimes the other side thinks vaccines will give their kids autism.
Sometimes the other side thinks fossil records are the devil playing tricks on us.
Sometimes the other side is a guy who wouldn't have beaten his girlfriend if she hadn't done anything to upset him.
Sometimes the other side is a religious leader who is absolutely certain that women's tits being out cause earthquakes.
And sometimes the other side is a rapist.

But can't you at least see that Columbia University (along with MANY other universities in this country) have a huge problem with this. HUGE. And while getting pissed off is clearly the right reaction, it is better to solve the problem so it doesn't keep happening.

And the only way to solve this sort of stuff is to understand how and why it happens. So that the next person who is assaulted or raped has a safe place to go and is treated with respect and doesn't get screwed over in the process. While I would love to just see it STOP HAPPENING, it is more realistic to properly train people to respond to these cases and resolve them in a more appropriate manner.

Wouldn't you like to see people like this prosecuted? Don't you think that by understanding the faults in the system you can then make it better for the next person?

[Deleted User]

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dolewhipper

sarahufl said:

climbingwife said:

I think the problem started with this:

I'm not victim blaming but...

I'm not defending him but...

That comes from having to generally tip toe around a lot of people on TK.

If you read the content of the post, I never remotely defended him. How is anything I posted victim blaming? I posted that I support her, I don't support the university, and that I think her project has brought students together.

************************************boxes**************************

So then why do you even have to say the phrase at all? Obviously it was a premonition of yours that you would be deemed defending him. When you bring up "evidence" to the people to support the claim of the rapist, you are in fact, defending them.

I believe, if she did try and talk the other women to step forward, it was because she knew that they, like MANY other women (including novella), were scared and embarrassed. So Emma knew that she would have a stronger case against her rapist if his other victims/whatever you want to call them would come forward.

LondonLisa

In my lawsuit against Sarah I stated that she would like to kill all babies, robbed a bank, would like the poor to starve to death, and advocated for the US government to nuke Mexico.

This is a FACT!  Well, it is, if i created a lawsuit, I could make all these allegations without any evidence. Whilst they are included in this lawsuit is a fact, it does not make them a fact. There is compelling evidence that this man committed these crimes, including multiple victims, and absolutely NO evidence that this girl has a vendetta against him. 

Do you see the logical fallacy in this? 

Just because it is in a lawsuit doesn't mean it is based on evidence. There is no evidence that she "convinced" the others to come forward. In fact, the other victims state themselves. Whilst it might come down to his word vs hers, I think there is something to be said about his word vs hers, hers,hers, and hers. 

All facts are not created equal: a fact that something is used as a defense in a lawsuit (this mysterious witches coven discussion to ruin this poor man- sarcasm) is not the same as the fact that multiple victims have come forward and the timeline makes sense and signed sworn affidavits under penalty of perjury.

Just a general point of order: if you have to qualify a sentence with "I'm not X but".... you are. "I'm not racist but"- no, you're racist. "I'm not defending him, but"- no, you are.  It is like the great classy test:"Anyone who uses the word 'classy', isn't"

TrixieJess

kaos16 said:

This is likely going to be a very unpopular post. . . . but i'm putting it out there.  

I would be interested to see the outcome of the suit that the alleged rapist has against the university.  I would also be very interested to see the reasons that the DA's office chose not to pursue charges against him.  

It seems like there is a lot to this case that isn't public knowledge that could probably be very insightful.

Admittedly, as an attorney who has prosecuted rape cases, and who has dismissed made up rape cases I am quite cynical.

FYI, for those that say the alleged rapist is using her sexual history against her, in NY there are protections, at least in criminal trials, where a defense attorney is forbidden from using a victim/survivor's past sexual history against them.  They are commonly referred to as Rape Shield Laws.  While he can allege these things in a suit against the school, if he would have been charged with raping her and took the case to trial there is no way his attorney would have been able to question her about her sexual history with him or anyone else. A victim/survivor's sexual history has NOTHING to do at all with whether they were raped in the case being prosecuted.

I don't know how it is in the States, but up here it can be difficult to obtain evidence. Quite a few victims of Sexual Assault and Rape don't report it right away and by the time they do, there is no physical or DNA evidence. Many times they send male officers to take statements (I know larger city PDs try and have female police officers take statements, but that sometimes doesn't always happen) and the victims are too frightened or traumatised to be in the company of another man. There is still a stigma attached to women who are raped at parties where they have been drinking, and many times police will try and persuade an already traumatised woman that maybe it could have been because they were drinking or other things.

As for the bolded, I think what they are trying to insinuate is that Emma and the alleged rapist had a relationship, therefore how could he possibly have raped her.

sarahufl

pinkrevenge said:

sarahufl said:

pinkrevenge said:

I know it's a very American thing to always hear both sides of a story and attempt to give them equal merit. But while that's a nice idea that comes from a good place, we really need to break that habit. Not every side has equal merit.

Sometimes the other side thinks vaccines will give their kids autism.
Sometimes the other side thinks fossil records are the devil playing tricks on us.
Sometimes the other side is a guy who wouldn't have beaten his girlfriend if she hadn't done anything to upset him.
Sometimes the other side is a religious leader who is absolutely certain that women's tits being out cause earthquakes.
And sometimes the other side is a rapist.

But can't you at least see that Columbia University (along with MANY other universities in this country) have a huge problem with this. HUGE. And while getting pissed off is clearly the right reaction, it is better to solve the problem so it doesn't keep happening.

And the only way to solve this sort of stuff is to understand how and why it happens. So that the next person who is assaulted or raped has a safe place to go and is treated with respect and doesn't get screwed over in the process. While I would love to just see it STOP HAPPENING, it is more realistic to properly train people to respond to these cases and resolve them in a more appropriate manner.

Wouldn't you like to see people like this prosecuted? Don't you think that by understanding the faults in the system you can then make it better for the next person?

I totally agree that we need to reform, but I didn't get ANY of that from bringing up the perpetrator. He thinks he's totally innocent, all those girls are lying bitches and he's a free man. He also thinks the school had no business even allowing his victims to have a voice at all.

Not sure how talking about his side creates any reform at all. We can figure out where that mentality comes from without giving him a soapbox. Misogyny and Rape culture isn't a mystery to us, though you sure as hell wouldn't know it by the way this country goes about it.

Of course he thinks he is innocent- isn't how this often happens? How often do you hear rapists conceding?! Considering the facts of the case does not give him merit. I like to understand the entirety of it (to the best of my ability). Understanding does not mean you are supporting or defending, it means you are trying to learn more about it.

Again, by learning how these things GO WRONG, you can hopefully fix it for the next person.

A group of grown women should be able to have a productive conversation about these things.

dolewhipper

sarahufl said:

pinkrevenge said:

sarahufl said:

pinkrevenge said:

I know it's a very American thing to always hear both sides of a story and attempt to give them equal merit. But while that's a nice idea that comes from a good place, we really need to break that habit. Not every side has equal merit.

Sometimes the other side thinks vaccines will give their kids autism.
Sometimes the other side thinks fossil records are the devil playing tricks on us.
Sometimes the other side is a guy who wouldn't have beaten his girlfriend if she hadn't done anything to upset him.
Sometimes the other side is a religious leader who is absolutely certain that women's tits being out cause earthquakes.
And sometimes the other side is a rapist.

But can't you at least see that Columbia University (along with MANY other universities in this country) have a huge problem with this. HUGE. And while getting pissed off is clearly the right reaction, it is better to solve the problem so it doesn't keep happening.

And the only way to solve this sort of stuff is to understand how and why it happens. So that the next person who is assaulted or raped has a safe place to go and is treated with respect and doesn't get screwed over in the process. While I would love to just see it STOP HAPPENING, it is more realistic to properly train people to respond to these cases and resolve them in a more appropriate manner.

Wouldn't you like to see people like this prosecuted? Don't you think that by understanding the faults in the system you can then make it better for the next person?

I totally agree that we need to reform, but I didn't get ANY of that from bringing up the perpetrator. He thinks he's totally innocent, all those girls are lying bitches and he's a free man. He also thinks the school had no business even allowing his victims to have a voice at all.

Not sure how talking about his side creates any reform at all. We can figure out where that mentality comes from without giving him a soapbox. Misogyny and Rape culture isn't a mystery to us, though you sure as hell wouldn't know it by the way this country goes about it.

Of course he thinks he is innocent- isn't how this often happens? How often do you hear rapists conceding?! Considering the facts of the case does not give him merit. I like to understand the entirety of it (to the best of my ability). Understanding does not mean you are supporting or defending, it means you are trying to learn more about it.

Again, by learning how these things GO WRONG, you can hopefully fix it for the next person.

A group of grown women should be able to have a productive conversation about these things.

I think this is productive.

And I think everyone knows whats wrong. We don't need to learn more. We need to actually DO it.