Emma Sulkowicz aka Mattress Girl

sarahufl

FiancB said:

I kind of perceived rape as being only stranger danger as well. As a senior, my teacher in sex ed actually did bring up consent and basically like guys, if a girl is drunk, just don't even think about it, and always ask. That was nice. That was kind of the first time I'd thought about that. She also shared that poem "The Rape of Mr Smith", which blew my mind at that point.

The last university I went to required first semester freshmen to complete an online course on consent and stuff. It was a joke. It took about 20 minutes and I don't remember what was on it. I really don't think it got down to the root of the matter but it makes the university less liable and that's all they really care about.

@sarahufl I'm curious what this training you did is and how it pertains to your job. I was under the impression you do office work. Do you also volunteer at a center or is that part of your job or some required seminar or...?

FiancB  The rape crisis training is entirely independent of what I do at Columbia. It is something I do as a volunteer on the weekend. We work with the ER at a local hospital and are on call when people come in (either rape or domestic violence). A lot of the people in the neighborhood either don't speak English or may not be citizens (it is a very immigrant-heavy area) and don't necessarily understand their rights. We are really patient advocates more than anything. It is scary when you get raped and the cops show up and a lot of people don't understand what you do/don't have to do. A lot of people are afraid of getting deported if they say anything so they often, sadly, suffer. Things like rape kits and evidence collection are portrayed so differently on TV that you often have to tell someone what really happens with a lot of them. We also work to get locks changed, orders of protection, their kids taken care of, shelter, etc. Although sometimes I sit with the women and read magazines and just keep them company. Every case is different.

My actual job is as an administrator for a degree program. Which actually does require a lot of counseling, but not typically of the sexual variety (although it may come across my desk, a lot of stuff does). More like what classes to take, where to live, etc. A lot of people come to me with other issues (sometimes psychological or health related) but I refer them to other services at the University.

I am more of a director to different services than a person who really provides them.

kaos16

FiancB said:

kaos16 said:

This is likely going to be a very unpopular post. . . . but i'm putting it out there.  

I would be interested to see the outcome of the suit that the alleged rapist has against the university.  I would also be very interested to see the reasons that the DA's office chose not to pursue charges against him.  

It seems like there is a lot to this case that isn't public knowledge that could probably be very insightful.

Admittedly, as an attorney who has prosecuted rape cases, and who has dismissed made up rape cases I am quite cynical.

FYI, for those that say the alleged rapist is using her sexual history against her, in NY there are protections, at least in criminal trials, where a defense attorney is forbidden from using a victim/survivor's past sexual history against them.  They are commonly referred to as Rape Shield Laws.  While he can allege these things in a suit against the school, if he would have been charged with raping her and took the case to trial there is no way his attorney would have been able to question her about her sexual history with him or anyone else. A victim/survivor's sexual history has NOTHING to do at all with whether they were raped in the case being prosecuted.

Correction: you dismissed cases where there was not sufficient evidence to prosecute.

I'm sure this happened a time or two but the overwhelming evidence shows that false rape charges are no more common than for any other crime. You make it sound like it's the majority of cases. And as mentioned, that protection is not always there, and even if it is and the attorney blurts out that she's a slut or something, they'll get told to shut up but it's still out there and able to sway the jury.

to correct your correction. . . No, I have dismissed made up rape cases.  

I also disagree with your statement about a defense attorney calling a victim a slut. . . that would actually be grounds for an immediate admonishment and mistrial.  It would not be something that could sway the jury because we would have to get a new jury and start over.  (I am only speaking for NY here)

VulgarGirl

When I transferred to my 4 year university I had to go to freshmen orientation (despite not being an actual freshmen) and they did these skits about "issues you might face". Like drinking and driving, someone OD'ing at a party, and someone having maybe not totally consensual sex with someone else.

Afterwards we broke up into groups to discuss the skits. When we got to the "not so consensual sex" skit our group one of the guys in the group said "Well it wasn't rape, she went to the party with him", and then everyone in the group agreed. Except me. Everyone thought it couldn't be rape because it was her boyfriend and she willingly went to the party with him. Our group leader (an upperclassman volunteer) told us that because she was drinking and unable to give consent it was in fact rape. Which sounded logical and sane to me. Everyone in the group was horrified at this information. And one of the girls spoke up that "She could ruin his life that way, saying she was raped just cause she got drunk and did something stupid" and then even our group leader nodded.

Afterwards I told my dad (a professor at a community college) about it and he told that he hears shit like that all the time. And it really amazes him that no one teaches their kids that consent is sexy and that if you don't have clear consent you just go ahead and don't have sex.

sarahufl

TrixieJess said:

FiancB said:

I kind of perceived rape as being only stranger danger as well. As a senior, my teacher in sex ed actually did bring up consent and basically like guys, if a girl is drunk, just don't even think about it, and always ask. That was nice. That was kind of the first time I'd thought about that. She also shared that poem "The Rape of Mr Smith", which blew my mind at that point.

The last university I went to required first semester freshmen to complete an online course on consent and stuff. It was a joke. It took about 20 minutes and I don't remember what was on it. I really don't think it got down to the root of the matter but it makes the university less liable and that's all they really care about.

@sarahufl I'm curious what this training you did is and how it pertains to your job. I was under the impression you do office work. Do you also volunteer at a center or is that part of your job or some required seminar or...?

This is a dangerous perception, most women are raped by men that they know. I'm not absolutely certain of the actual statistics as it is often under reported, but here is a link to RAINN:

https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders

Also important to point out that women are not the only people who get raped. Men do too and report it FAR LESS because of the social stigma attached to it.

Sure, it is a smaller percentage of people, but it does happen.

VulgarGirl

sarahufl said:

TrixieJess said:

FiancB said:

I kind of perceived rape as being only stranger danger as well. As a senior, my teacher in sex ed actually did bring up consent and basically like guys, if a girl is drunk, just don't even think about it, and always ask. That was nice. That was kind of the first time I'd thought about that. She also shared that poem "The Rape of Mr Smith", which blew my mind at that point.

The last university I went to required first semester freshmen to complete an online course on consent and stuff. It was a joke. It took about 20 minutes and I don't remember what was on it. I really don't think it got down to the root of the matter but it makes the university less liable and that's all they really care about.

@sarahufl I'm curious what this training you did is and how it pertains to your job. I was under the impression you do office work. Do you also volunteer at a center or is that part of your job or some required seminar or...?

This is a dangerous perception, most women are raped by men that they know. I'm not absolutely certain of the actual statistics as it is often under reported, but here is a link to RAINN:

https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders

Also important to point out that women are not the only people who get raped. Men do too and report it FAR LESS because of the social stigma attached to it.

Sure, it is a smaller percentage of people, but it does happen.

I was about the say the same thing and also important to point out that it is not only hetero rape that happens.

Women can rape women and men can rape men.

Partner violence that goes unreported is a real problem is the LGBTQ community. And is often not taken seriously at all by the authorities, and there is also a general lack of support groups/resources for people who are victim of same sex abuse.

I had an abusive ex. When people find out it was another girl, I'm often told it wasn't as "serious" as a woman abused by a man. Because people assume a woman can't cause the same physical damage a man can. People are fucking idiots.

Kahlyla

southernbelle0915 said:

Plus and also, because of the lack of public education and general awareness on rape, DH and I will be talking to our son about it when we have the birds and the bees chat. I don't really know how yet, but I'm determined to.. so we will read about it and find a good way to approach it.

I have young boys and was looking for the same thing, and here's one resource I stumbled upon:

http://goodmenproject.com/families/the-healthy-sex-talk-teaching-kids-consent-ages-1-21/

kkitkat79

MagicInk said:

How hard is it to teach people not to rape? Maybe someone should show the officials at Columbia University that "consent is like tea" video. Cause for being a fucking Ivy League school it sure is run by some dumbasses who DO NOT HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF RAPE. 

When is it rape? When the person you're fucking didn't say yes.

That's the thing though, you cannot teach how not to rape. People who rape know exactly what they are doing and they don't care. Do you think that as soon as you say drunk people cannot give consent a potential rapist will go " oh, really, oops, didn't know that, good thing someone told me". A rapist is going to rape no matter what unless he is fairly sure he is not going to get away with it. So the people who need to be educated are the public at large. And maybe laws need to be changed so it is easier to prove lack of consent. For example, if there are witnesses to a woman being drunk it should be used as evidence against the alleged rapist. I am not sure whether such laws exist right now. Effective prosecution of rapes is the only thing that is going to work, if anything, in preventing rapes on the side of the rapists, especially the date and family kinds of rape.

bethsmiles

MagicInk said:

When I transferred to my 4 year university I had to go to freshmen orientation (despite not being an actual freshmen) and they did these skits about "issues you might face". Like drinking and driving, someone OD'ing at a party, and someone having maybe not totally consensual sex with someone else.

Afterwards we broke up into groups to discuss the skits. When we got to the "not so consensual sex" skit our group one of the guys in the group said "Well it wasn't rape, she went to the party with him", and then everyone in the group agreed. Except me. Everyone thought it couldn't be rape because it was her boyfriend and she willingly went to the party with him. Our group leader (an upperclassman volunteer) told us that because she was drinking and unable to give consent it was in fact rape. Which sounded logical and sane to me. Everyone in the group was horrified at this information. And one of the girls spoke up that "She could ruin his life that way, saying she was raped just cause she got drunk and did something stupid" and then even our group leader nodded.

Afterwards I told my dad (a professor at a community college) about it and he told that he hears shit like that all the time. And it really amazes him that no one teaches their kids that consent is sexy and that if you don't have clear consent you just go ahead and don't have sex.

When I was teaching I heard shit like that all the time as well. The first came it came up in a class I was teaching I was shocked and horrified. Now I'm still horrified but unfortunately not shocked when my students say something like "Well she shouldn't have gotten so drunk" or "They were dating so it couldn't be rape" or "There are consequences for your actions." My public speaking classroom full of 18 - 20 somthings is not the first time we should be having a conversation about what rape is.

southernbelle0915

Thank you, @kaylyla!!

FiancB

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

How hard is it to teach people not to rape? Maybe someone should show the officials at Columbia University that "consent is like tea" video. Cause for being a fucking Ivy League school it sure is run by some dumbasses who DO NOT HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF RAPE. 

When is it rape? When the person you're fucking didn't say yes.

That's the thing though, you cannot teach how not to rape. People who rape know exactly what they are doing and they don't care. Do you think that as soon as you say drunk people cannot give consent a potential rapist will go " oh, really, oops, didn't know that, good thing someone told me". A rapist is going to rape no matter what unless he is fairly sure he is not going to get away with it. So the people who need to be educated are the public at large. And maybe laws need to be changed so it is easier to prove lack of consent. For example, if there are witnesses to a woman being drunk it should be used as evidence against the alleged rapist. I am not sure whether such laws exist right now. Effective prosecution of rapes is the only thing that is going to work, if anything, in preventing rapes on the side of the rapists, especially the date and family kinds of rape.

Agree and disagree. Overall, people are taught that women are not autonomous beings that exist for themselves. Men are taught that women exist for them, and it's acceptable to manipulate them into pleasing them.

I agree with you in the case of people that are real predators and drug girls and stuff like that. But I also think there's a lot of cases where it's a little more gray and I think there are a lot of people that honestly do not understand that drunk or previous consent =/= consent. A lot of people are taught that a rapist is a creep that crawls into your window at night, not a seemingly normal guy at a party that really wants to get laid.

VulgarGirl

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

How hard is it to teach people not to rape? Maybe someone should show the officials at Columbia University that "consent is like tea" video. Cause for being a fucking Ivy League school it sure is run by some dumbasses who DO NOT HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF RAPE. 

When is it rape? When the person you're fucking didn't say yes.

That's the thing though, you cannot teach how not to rape. People who rape know exactly what they are doing and they don't care. Do you think that as soon as you say drunk people cannot give consent a potential rapist will go " oh, really, oops, didn't know that, good thing someone told me". A rapist is going to rape no matter what unless he is fairly sure he is not going to get away with it. So the people who need to be educated are the public at large. And maybe laws need to be changed so it is easier to prove lack of consent. For example, if there are witnesses to a woman being drunk it should be used as evidence against the alleged rapist. I am not sure whether such laws exist right now. Effective prosecution of rapes is the only thing that is going to work, if anything, in preventing rapes on the side of the rapists, especially the date and family kinds of rape.

It won't stop the rapists from raping. But it will stop the people who deal with rape vicitims from being shitty at their jobs. 

southernbelle0915

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

How hard is it to teach people not to rape? Maybe someone should show the officials at Columbia University that "consent is like tea" video. Cause for being a fucking Ivy League school it sure is run by some dumbasses who DO NOT HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF RAPE. 

When is it rape? When the person you're fucking didn't say yes.

That's the thing though, you cannot teach how not to rape. People who rape know exactly what they are doing and they don't care. Do you think that as soon as you say drunk people cannot give consent a potential rapist will go " oh, really, oops, didn't know that, good thing someone told me". A rapist is going to rape no matter what unless he is fairly sure he is not going to get away with it. So the people who need to be educated are the public at large. And maybe laws need to be changed so it is easier to prove lack of consent. For example, if there are witnesses to a woman being drunk it should be used as evidence against the alleged rapist. I am not sure whether such laws exist right now. Effective prosecution of rapes is the only thing that is going to work, if anything, in preventing rapes on the side of the rapists, especially the date and family kinds of rape.

I think I know what you're trying to say, but I don't actually agree with the bolded.

I've referenced this a couple of times in this thread, but when I was at college, it was VERY common for guys to talk about getting girls drunk so getting sex was easier. That is definitely rape. But I don't think any of those guys saw themselves as rapists. And I don't think they saw that act as rape. (Of course, they are wrong, but I'm speaking to the bolded above.)

kkitkat79

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

How hard is it to teach people not to rape? Maybe someone should show the officials at Columbia University that "consent is like tea" video. Cause for being a fucking Ivy League school it sure is run by some dumbasses who DO NOT HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF RAPE. 

When is it rape? When the person you're fucking didn't say yes.

That's the thing though, you cannot teach how not to rape. People who rape know exactly what they are doing and they don't care. Do you think that as soon as you say drunk people cannot give consent a potential rapist will go " oh, really, oops, didn't know that, good thing someone told me". A rapist is going to rape no matter what unless he is fairly sure he is not going to get away with it. So the people who need to be educated are the public at large. And maybe laws need to be changed so it is easier to prove lack of consent. For example, if there are witnesses to a woman being drunk it should be used as evidence against the alleged rapist. I am not sure whether such laws exist right now. Effective prosecution of rapes is the only thing that is going to work, if anything, in preventing rapes on the side of the rapists, especially the date and family kinds of rape.

It won't stop the rapists from raping. But it will stop the people who deal with rape vicitims from being shitty at their jobs. 

Absolutely, but that is not teaching not to rape. That is teaching what rape is.

VulgarGirl

southernbelle0915 said:

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

How hard is it to teach people not to rape? Maybe someone should show the officials at Columbia University that "consent is like tea" video. Cause for being a fucking Ivy League school it sure is run by some dumbasses who DO NOT HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF RAPE. 

When is it rape? When the person you're fucking didn't say yes.

That's the thing though, you cannot teach how not to rape. People who rape know exactly what they are doing and they don't care. Do you think that as soon as you say drunk people cannot give consent a potential rapist will go " oh, really, oops, didn't know that, good thing someone told me". A rapist is going to rape no matter what unless he is fairly sure he is not going to get away with it. So the people who need to be educated are the public at large. And maybe laws need to be changed so it is easier to prove lack of consent. For example, if there are witnesses to a woman being drunk it should be used as evidence against the alleged rapist. I am not sure whether such laws exist right now. Effective prosecution of rapes is the only thing that is going to work, if anything, in preventing rapes on the side of the rapists, especially the date and family kinds of rape.

I think I know what you're trying to say, but I don't actually agree with the bolded.

I've referenced this a couple of times in this thread, but when I was at college, it was VERY common for guys to talk about getting girls drunk so getting sex was easier. That is definitely rape. But I don't think any of those guys saw themselves as rapists. And I don't think they saw that act as rape. (Of course, they are wrong, but I'm speaking to the bolded above.)

There was a survey that showed if they did not use the word rape, but describe a rape, a lot of men were totally ok with rape. But they didn't see it as rape.

bethsmiles

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

How hard is it to teach people not to rape? Maybe someone should show the officials at Columbia University that "consent is like tea" video. Cause for being a fucking Ivy League school it sure is run by some dumbasses who DO NOT HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF RAPE. 

When is it rape? When the person you're fucking didn't say yes.

That's the thing though, you cannot teach how not to rape. People who rape know exactly what they are doing and they don't care. Do you think that as soon as you say drunk people cannot give consent a potential rapist will go " oh, really, oops, didn't know that, good thing someone told me". A rapist is going to rape no matter what unless he is fairly sure he is not going to get away with it. So the people who need to be educated are the public at large. And maybe laws need to be changed so it is easier to prove lack of consent. For example, if there are witnesses to a woman being drunk it should be used as evidence against the alleged rapist. I am not sure whether such laws exist right now. Effective prosecution of rapes is the only thing that is going to work, if anything, in preventing rapes on the side of the rapists, especially the date and family kinds of rape.

I honestly do not think that is true. Obviously it is true in probably the majority of cases. But I have had so many students who did not understand that someone who is drunk cannot give consent or don't think that you can be raped by someone you are in a relationship with. There are so people out there who do not understand what rape is. So yes I do think people need to be taught not to rape. I don't think it will make it so there are no more rapes but I do think it's important.

VulgarGirl

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

How hard is it to teach people not to rape? Maybe someone should show the officials at Columbia University that "consent is like tea" video. Cause for being a fucking Ivy League school it sure is run by some dumbasses who DO NOT HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF RAPE. 

When is it rape? When the person you're fucking didn't say yes.

That's the thing though, you cannot teach how not to rape. People who rape know exactly what they are doing and they don't care. Do you think that as soon as you say drunk people cannot give consent a potential rapist will go " oh, really, oops, didn't know that, good thing someone told me". A rapist is going to rape no matter what unless he is fairly sure he is not going to get away with it. So the people who need to be educated are the public at large. And maybe laws need to be changed so it is easier to prove lack of consent. For example, if there are witnesses to a woman being drunk it should be used as evidence against the alleged rapist. I am not sure whether such laws exist right now. Effective prosecution of rapes is the only thing that is going to work, if anything, in preventing rapes on the side of the rapists, especially the date and family kinds of rape.

It won't stop the rapists from raping. But it will stop the people who deal with rape vicitims from being shitty at their jobs. 

Absolutely, but that is not teaching not to rape. That is teaching what rape is.

So...are you saying then we should tell people that consent is important? That rape is wrong? That you shouldn't rape people? That rape is not just a stranger in a dark ally? That if your sex partner is too drunk to give consent then that is rape? That just because you had sex before doesn't mean you get to have sex again? That your sex partner can change their mind about having sex? That YES means YES. And if you don't hear YES you don't get to fuck them? 

We just shouldn't bother cause, meh, rapists gonna rape rape rape rape rape. 

Kahlyla

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

How hard is it to teach people not to rape? Maybe someone should show the officials at Columbia University that "consent is like tea" video. Cause for being a fucking Ivy League school it sure is run by some dumbasses who DO NOT HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF RAPE. 

When is it rape? When the person you're fucking didn't say yes.

That's the thing though, you cannot teach how not to rape. People who rape know exactly what they are doing and they don't care. Do you think that as soon as you say drunk people cannot give consent a potential rapist will go " oh, really, oops, didn't know that, good thing someone told me". A rapist is going to rape no matter what unless he is fairly sure he is not going to get away with it. So the people who need to be educated are the public at large. And maybe laws need to be changed so it is easier to prove lack of consent. For example, if there are witnesses to a woman being drunk it should be used as evidence against the alleged rapist. I am not sure whether such laws exist right now. Effective prosecution of rapes is the only thing that is going to work, if anything, in preventing rapes on the side of the rapists, especially the date and family kinds of rape.

I don't believe this is true, and I think it only reinforces the belief that the only rapists who exist are the sick sexual sadists lurking in alleys just waiting for a woman to walk by so they can attack her. At the very least, I think we as humans have a very strong capacity for rationalizing and compartmentalizing, and we are also highly susceptible to peer pressure - which can come not just from our immediate peer group but from living in a society which supports rape culture.

This is why I think things like the Good Men Project, He for She, and even BroTips are very important for our society. I think it's incredibly important that men and boys themselves make it "uncool" to rape - in general and certainly as opposed to the opposite. Men can also stop rape actively by, for example, looking out for women in their proximity who perhaps have had too much to drink, by directly stopping a predator, or by offering to walk someone home and then, you know, not raping her. They can turn some of the jokes PPs were mentioning on their sides, laugh at anyone who would suggest such a thing instead of with them, they can talk about how sexy an enthusiastic partner is - they can change the conversation. They can be allies, and, you know, if we're talking about douchebag-fratboy culture and the cult of popularity and peer pressure, as we often are in these cases, their words and actions can actually have a powerful impact.

kkitkat79

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

How hard is it to teach people not to rape? Maybe someone should show the officials at Columbia University that "consent is like tea" video. Cause for being a fucking Ivy League school it sure is run by some dumbasses who DO NOT HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF RAPE. 

When is it rape? When the person you're fucking didn't say yes.

That's the thing though, you cannot teach how not to rape. People who rape know exactly what they are doing and they don't care. Do you think that as soon as you say drunk people cannot give consent a potential rapist will go " oh, really, oops, didn't know that, good thing someone told me". A rapist is going to rape no matter what unless he is fairly sure he is not going to get away with it. So the people who need to be educated are the public at large. And maybe laws need to be changed so it is easier to prove lack of consent. For example, if there are witnesses to a woman being drunk it should be used as evidence against the alleged rapist. I am not sure whether such laws exist right now. Effective prosecution of rapes is the only thing that is going to work, if anything, in preventing rapes on the side of the rapists, especially the date and family kinds of rape.

It won't stop the rapists from raping. But it will stop the people who deal with rape vicitims from being shitty at their jobs. 

Absolutely, but that is not teaching not to rape. That is teaching what rape is.

So...are you saying then we should tell people that consent is important? That rape is wrong? That you shouldn't rape people? That rape is not just a stranger in a dark ally? That if your sex partner is too drunk to give consent then that is rape? That just because you had sex before doesn't mean you get to have sex again? That your sex partner can change their mind about having sex? That YES means YES. And if you don't hear YES you don't get to fuck them? 

We just shouldn't bother cause, meh, rapists gonna rape rape rape rape rape. 

Where did I say we shouldn't bother teaching those things? That is teaching what rape is. And I explicitly said that people need to be educated about what rape is, what it means, all the things you mentioned. But that is not teaching how not to rape. Teaching not to rape implies that a person knows what rape is and needs to be taught how not to do it. I don't think it's feasible.

VulgarGirl

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

How hard is it to teach people not to rape? Maybe someone should show the officials at Columbia University that "consent is like tea" video. Cause for being a fucking Ivy League school it sure is run by some dumbasses who DO NOT HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF RAPE. 

When is it rape? When the person you're fucking didn't say yes.

That's the thing though, you cannot teach how not to rape. People who rape know exactly what they are doing and they don't care. Do you think that as soon as you say drunk people cannot give consent a potential rapist will go " oh, really, oops, didn't know that, good thing someone told me". A rapist is going to rape no matter what unless he is fairly sure he is not going to get away with it. So the people who need to be educated are the public at large. And maybe laws need to be changed so it is easier to prove lack of consent. For example, if there are witnesses to a woman being drunk it should be used as evidence against the alleged rapist. I am not sure whether such laws exist right now. Effective prosecution of rapes is the only thing that is going to work, if anything, in preventing rapes on the side of the rapists, especially the date and family kinds of rape.

It won't stop the rapists from raping. But it will stop the people who deal with rape vicitims from being shitty at their jobs. 

Absolutely, but that is not teaching not to rape. That is teaching what rape is.

So...are you saying then we should tell people that consent is important? That rape is wrong? That you shouldn't rape people? That rape is not just a stranger in a dark ally? That if your sex partner is too drunk to give consent then that is rape? That just because you had sex before doesn't mean you get to have sex again? That your sex partner can change their mind about having sex? That YES means YES. And if you don't hear YES you don't get to fuck them? 

We just shouldn't bother cause, meh, rapists gonna rape rape rape rape rape. 

Where did I say we shouldn't bother teaching those things? That is teaching what rape is. And I explicitly said that people need to be educated about what rape is, what it means, all the things you mentioned. But that is not teaching how not to rape. Teaching not to rape implies that a person knows what rape is and needs to be taught how not to do it. I don't think it's feasible.

Are you ignoring what everyone else is saying? Cause you're only responding to me. 

So...we can't teach people not to rape? But we can teach people what rape is? And then...what they choose to do with that information is up to them? And hey if it's they choose to rape well then they were just hardwired to be rapists?

[Deleted User]

.

southernbelle0915

Ditto others... This is a totally different type of an example, but it's all I can think of right now. So when I was in middle school, I used the word "retarded" to describe things I thought were stupid or that I didn't like. I'd casually say, "ugh, that's so retarded." I had NO idea it was wrong or offensive. Finally someone educated me on why that was wrong. I felt bad and I never used it again. 

I think *most* people would be the same way about rape. If they don't understand that it's rape to give someone a super strong drink or two in order to "loosen them up" for sex and someone finally corrects this misconception... I like to believe that *most* people would be like "oh wow, I didn't know that was rape. I feel like scum. I'll never say/do those things again."

kkitkat79

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

How hard is it to teach people not to rape? Maybe someone should show the officials at Columbia University that "consent is like tea" video. Cause for being a fucking Ivy League school it sure is run by some dumbasses who DO NOT HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF RAPE. 

When is it rape? When the person you're fucking didn't say yes.

That's the thing though, you cannot teach how not to rape. People who rape know exactly what they are doing and they don't care. Do you think that as soon as you say drunk people cannot give consent a potential rapist will go " oh, really, oops, didn't know that, good thing someone told me". A rapist is going to rape no matter what unless he is fairly sure he is not going to get away with it. So the people who need to be educated are the public at large. And maybe laws need to be changed so it is easier to prove lack of consent. For example, if there are witnesses to a woman being drunk it should be used as evidence against the alleged rapist. I am not sure whether such laws exist right now. Effective prosecution of rapes is the only thing that is going to work, if anything, in preventing rapes on the side of the rapists, especially the date and family kinds of rape.

It won't stop the rapists from raping. But it will stop the people who deal with rape vicitims from being shitty at their jobs. 

Absolutely, but that is not teaching not to rape. That is teaching what rape is.

So...are you saying then we should tell people that consent is important? That rape is wrong? That you shouldn't rape people? That rape is not just a stranger in a dark ally? That if your sex partner is too drunk to give consent then that is rape? That just because you had sex before doesn't mean you get to have sex again? That your sex partner can change their mind about having sex? That YES means YES. And if you don't hear YES you don't get to fuck them? 

We just shouldn't bother cause, meh, rapists gonna rape rape rape rape rape. 

Where did I say we shouldn't bother teaching those things? That is teaching what rape is. And I explicitly said that people need to be educated about what rape is, what it means, all the things you mentioned. But that is not teaching how not to rape. Teaching not to rape implies that a person knows what rape is and needs to be taught how not to do it. I don't think it's feasible.

Are you ignoring what everyone else is saying? Cause you're only responding to me. 

So...we can't teach people not to rape? But we can teach people what rape is? And then...what they choose to do with that information is up to them? And hey if it's they choose to rape well then they were just hardwired to be rapists?

Not ignoring anyone, on mobile so multiple quoting is hard. I agree with those that said that sometimes people don't know what rape is. Which is my point, you can teach what rape is. But are you really saying that you can somehow control another adult's actions? Of course it is up to an individual what to do with the information and if they choose to rape how are you going to teach them not to do it? You can scare them off of doing it if they realize it's going to be hard to get away with it which gets back to my original point about effective prosecution.

[Deleted User]

.

VulgarGirl

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

How hard is it to teach people not to rape? Maybe someone should show the officials at Columbia University that "consent is like tea" video. Cause for being a fucking Ivy League school it sure is run by some dumbasses who DO NOT HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF RAPE. 

When is it rape? When the person you're fucking didn't say yes.

That's the thing though, you cannot teach how not to rape. People who rape know exactly what they are doing and they don't care. Do you think that as soon as you say drunk people cannot give consent a potential rapist will go " oh, really, oops, didn't know that, good thing someone told me". A rapist is going to rape no matter what unless he is fairly sure he is not going to get away with it. So the people who need to be educated are the public at large. And maybe laws need to be changed so it is easier to prove lack of consent. For example, if there are witnesses to a woman being drunk it should be used as evidence against the alleged rapist. I am not sure whether such laws exist right now. Effective prosecution of rapes is the only thing that is going to work, if anything, in preventing rapes on the side of the rapists, especially the date and family kinds of rape.

It won't stop the rapists from raping. But it will stop the people who deal with rape vicitims from being shitty at their jobs. 

Absolutely, but that is not teaching not to rape. That is teaching what rape is.

So...are you saying then we should tell people that consent is important? That rape is wrong? That you shouldn't rape people? That rape is not just a stranger in a dark ally? That if your sex partner is too drunk to give consent then that is rape? That just because you had sex before doesn't mean you get to have sex again? That your sex partner can change their mind about having sex? That YES means YES. And if you don't hear YES you don't get to fuck them? 

We just shouldn't bother cause, meh, rapists gonna rape rape rape rape rape. 

Where did I say we shouldn't bother teaching those things? That is teaching what rape is. And I explicitly said that people need to be educated about what rape is, what it means, all the things you mentioned. But that is not teaching how not to rape. Teaching not to rape implies that a person knows what rape is and needs to be taught how not to do it. I don't think it's feasible.

Are you ignoring what everyone else is saying? Cause you're only responding to me. 

So...we can't teach people not to rape? But we can teach people what rape is? And then...what they choose to do with that information is up to them? And hey if it's they choose to rape well then they were just hardwired to be rapists?

Not ignoring anyone, on mobile so multiple quoting is hard. I agree with those that said that sometimes people don't know what rape is. Which is my point, you can teach what rape is. But are you really saying that you can somehow control another adult's actions? Of course it is up to an individual what to do with the information and if they choose to rape how are you going to teach them not to do it? You can scare them off of doing it if they realize it's going to be hard to get away with it which gets back to my original point about effective prosecution.

Well you teach them not to rape WAY before they become adults.

Is your argument that we should just not worry about the fact that people are raping and instead focus on making sure we toss them in jail? 

No matter how harsh we prosecute a rapist you're forgetting about someone else in this equation. The rape vicitm. The person who gets to deal with the fact that they were sexually violated for the rest of their lives.

We tell people not to murder, not to rob people, not to join gangs, do drugs, drinking and drive. We tell them all the fucking time. People still murder, rob, join gangs, do drugs and drink and drive. That doesn't mean we stop saying "Don't do this shit". Rape is a crime just like those are crimes.

kkitkat79

pinkrevenge said:

I don't understand why you're so insistent on this.
We are teaching people not to rape by teaching them exactly what rape is so that those who would have sexually assaulted someone out of ignorance don't do it.

No one said they can control people who know exactly what rape is and do it anyway, but it sure as shit would help get convictions and long prison times if people knew exactly what counted as rape. Rape WOULD go down because people would know what it is, know how serious it is, some would not do it, and everyone else would understand what a serious crime it is and the justice system would be more effective for it. Rapists would be far more like to get convictions and be in jail / monitored to keep from re-offending.

It seems like you're saying "Don't bother". If that is not your intention, you need to think of a new way to say it.

I insist because I think there is a significant difference between saying " we need to teach not to rape" and " we need to teach what rape is". You are right in saying that teaching people what rape is effectively may stop them from raping. But I truly think it is not the same as saying we tought them how not to rape. I think it is impossible to teach a person who already knows what rape is not to do it if his intention is to rape. As I said you can scare him off if he thinks the panishment will be severe, but again, that's in not teaching him not to do it.

VulgarGirl

kkitkat79 said:

pinkrevenge said:

I don't understand why you're so insistent on this.
We are teaching people not to rape by teaching them exactly what rape is so that those who would have sexually assaulted someone out of ignorance don't do it.

No one said they can control people who know exactly what rape is and do it anyway, but it sure as shit would help get convictions and long prison times if people knew exactly what counted as rape. Rape WOULD go down because people would know what it is, know how serious it is, some would not do it, and everyone else would understand what a serious crime it is and the justice system would be more effective for it. Rapists would be far more like to get convictions and be in jail / monitored to keep from re-offending.

It seems like you're saying "Don't bother". If that is not your intention, you need to think of a new way to say it.

I insist because I think there is a significant difference between saying " we need to teach not to rape" and " we need to teach what rape is". You are right in saying that teaching people what rape is effectively may stop them from raping. But I truly think it is not the same as saying we tought them how not to rape. I think it is impossible to teach a person who already knows what rape is not to do it if his intention is to rape. As I said you can scare him off if he thinks the panishment will be severe, but again, that's in not teaching him not to do it.

I think someone needs to teach you that rapists are not just men. It is important to note that women can be rapists too. People who file reports and accuse women of raping them are often made to feel that their rape isn't "valid".

kkitkat79

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

How hard is it to teach people not to rape? Maybe someone should show the officials at Columbia University that "consent is like tea" video. Cause for being a fucking Ivy League school it sure is run by some dumbasses who DO NOT HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF RAPE. 

When is it rape? When the person you're fucking didn't say yes.

That's the thing though, you cannot teach how not to rape. People who rape know exactly what they are doing and they don't care. Do you think that as soon as you say drunk people cannot give consent a potential rapist will go " oh, really, oops, didn't know that, good thing someone told me". A rapist is going to rape no matter what unless he is fairly sure he is not going to get away with it. So the people who need to be educated are the public at large. And maybe laws need to be changed so it is easier to prove lack of consent. For example, if there are witnesses to a woman being drunk it should be used as evidence against the alleged rapist. I am not sure whether such laws exist right now. Effective prosecution of rapes is the only thing that is going to work, if anything, in preventing rapes on the side of the rapists, especially the date and family kinds of rape.

It won't stop the rapists from raping. But it will stop the people who deal with rape vicitims from being shitty at their jobs. 

Absolutely, but that is not teaching not to rape. That is teaching what rape is.

So...are you saying then we should tell people that consent is important? That rape is wrong? That you shouldn't rape people? That rape is not just a stranger in a dark ally? That if your sex partner is too drunk to give consent then that is rape? That just because you had sex before doesn't mean you get to have sex again? That your sex partner can change their mind about having sex? That YES means YES. And if you don't hear YES you don't get to fuck them? 

We just shouldn't bother cause, meh, rapists gonna rape rape rape rape rape. 

Where did I say we shouldn't bother teaching those things? That is teaching what rape is. And I explicitly said that people need to be educated about what rape is, what it means, all the things you mentioned. But that is not teaching how not to rape. Teaching not to rape implies that a person knows what rape is and needs to be taught how not to do it. I don't think it's feasible.

Are you ignoring what everyone else is saying? Cause you're only responding to me. 

So...we can't teach people not to rape? But we can teach people what rape is? And then...what they choose to do with that information is up to them? And hey if it's they choose to rape well then they were just hardwired to be rapists?

Not ignoring anyone, on mobile so multiple quoting is hard. I agree with those that said that sometimes people don't know what rape is. Which is my point, you can teach what rape is. But are you really saying that you can somehow control another adult's actions? Of course it is up to an individual what to do with the information and if they choose to rape how are you going to teach them not to do it? You can scare them off of doing it if they realize it's going to be hard to get away with it which gets back to my original point about effective prosecution.

Well you teach them not to rape WAY before they become adults.

Is your argument that we should just not worry about the fact that people are raping and instead focus on making sure we toss them in jail? 

No matter how harsh we prosecute a rapist you're forgetting about someone else in this equation. The rape vicitm. The person who gets to deal with the fact that they were sexually violated for the rest of their lives.

We tell people not to murder, not to rob people, not to join gangs, do drugs, drinking and drive. We tell them all the fucking time. People still murder, rob, join gangs, do drugs and drink and drive. That doesn't mean we stop saying "Don't do this shit". Rape is a crime just like those are crimes.

Well, university courses where mentioned so we are talking about adults. And you can tell adults not to do something all you want, but until they decide that it is wrong to do it they will continue doing it. So yes, I don't think telling an educated rapist not to rape is going to be very effective. What is going to be effective is explaining what constitutes rape. So ignorant rapists can now make an informed decision, so that people take all rape victims seriously, so we can prosecute rapists more effectively. And yes, if it makes even one rape victim feel better that we continue to say don't rape then we should do it as often as possible. But I don't think it is going to be effective in preventing or punishing rape.

TrixieJess

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

How hard is it to teach people not to rape? Maybe someone should show the officials at Columbia University that "consent is like tea" video. Cause for being a fucking Ivy League school it sure is run by some dumbasses who DO NOT HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF RAPE. 

When is it rape? When the person you're fucking didn't say yes.

That's the thing though, you cannot teach how not to rape. People who rape know exactly what they are doing and they don't care. Do you think that as soon as you say drunk people cannot give consent a potential rapist will go " oh, really, oops, didn't know that, good thing someone told me". A rapist is going to rape no matter what unless he is fairly sure he is not going to get away with it. So the people who need to be educated are the public at large. And maybe laws need to be changed so it is easier to prove lack of consent. For example, if there are witnesses to a woman being drunk it should be used as evidence against the alleged rapist. I am not sure whether such laws exist right now. Effective prosecution of rapes is the only thing that is going to work, if anything, in preventing rapes on the side of the rapists, especially the date and family kinds of rape.

It won't stop the rapists from raping. But it will stop the people who deal with rape vicitims from being shitty at their jobs. 

Absolutely, but that is not teaching not to rape. That is teaching what rape is.

So...are you saying then we should tell people that consent is important? That rape is wrong? That you shouldn't rape people? That rape is not just a stranger in a dark ally? That if your sex partner is too drunk to give consent then that is rape? That just because you had sex before doesn't mean you get to have sex again? That your sex partner can change their mind about having sex? That YES means YES. And if you don't hear YES you don't get to fuck them? 

We just shouldn't bother cause, meh, rapists gonna rape rape rape rape rape. 

Where did I say we shouldn't bother teaching those things? That is teaching what rape is. And I explicitly said that people need to be educated about what rape is, what it means, all the things you mentioned. But that is not teaching how not to rape. Teaching not to rape implies that a person knows what rape is and needs to be taught how not to do it. I don't think it's feasible.

Are you ignoring what everyone else is saying? Cause you're only responding to me. 

So...we can't teach people not to rape? But we can teach people what rape is? And then...what they choose to do with that information is up to them? And hey if it's they choose to rape well then they were just hardwired to be rapists?

Not ignoring anyone, on mobile so multiple quoting is hard. I agree with those that said that sometimes people don't know what rape is. Which is my point, you can teach what rape is. But are you really saying that you can somehow control another adult's actions? Of course it is up to an individual what to do with the information and if they choose to rape how are you going to teach them not to do it? You can scare them off of doing it if they realize it's going to be hard to get away with it which gets back to my original point about effective prosecution.

Well you teach them not to rape WAY before they become adults.

Is your argument that we should just not worry about the fact that people are raping and instead focus on making sure we toss them in jail? 

No matter how harsh we prosecute a rapist you're forgetting about someone else in this equation. The rape vicitm. The person who gets to deal with the fact that they were sexually violated for the rest of their lives.

We tell people not to murder, not to rob people, not to join gangs, do drugs, drinking and drive. We tell them all the fucking time. People still murder, rob, join gangs, do drugs and drink and drive. That doesn't mean we stop saying "Don't do this shit". Rape is a crime just like those are crimes.

Well, university courses were mentioned so we are talking about adults. And you can tell adults not to do something all you want, but until they decide that it is wrong to do it they will continue doing it. So yes, I don't think telling an educated rapist not to rape is going to be very effective. What is going to be effective is explaining what constitutes rape. So ignorant rapists can now make an informed decision, so that people take all rape victims seriously, so we can prosecute rapists more effectively. And yes, if it makes even one rape victim feel better that we continue to say don't rape then we should do it as often as possible. But I don't think it is going to be effective in preventing or punishing rape.

---------Pre-emptive effing Box-------

That is why the issue of what is and is not consent needs to be taught from a young age. We need to start teaching our children this before they get to University. I know the sex-ed curriculum just changed where we are and that is now being taught in grades 4-6, before they go to Secondary School.

kkitkat79

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

pinkrevenge said:

I don't understand why you're so insistent on this.
We are teaching people not to rape by teaching them exactly what rape is so that those who would have sexually assaulted someone out of ignorance don't do it.

No one said they can control people who know exactly what rape is and do it anyway, but it sure as shit would help get convictions and long prison times if people knew exactly what counted as rape. Rape WOULD go down because people would know what it is, know how serious it is, some would not do it, and everyone else would understand what a serious crime it is and the justice system would be more effective for it. Rapists would be far more like to get convictions and be in jail / monitored to keep from re-offending.

It seems like you're saying "Don't bother". If that is not your intention, you need to think of a new way to say it.

I insist because I think there is a significant difference between saying " we need to teach not to rape" and " we need to teach what rape is". You are right in saying that teaching people what rape is effectively may stop them from raping. But I truly think it is not the same as saying we tought them how not to rape. I think it is impossible to teach a person who already knows what rape is not to do it if his intention is to rape. As I said you can scare him off if he thinks the panishment will be severe, but again, that's in not teaching him not to do it.

I think someone needs to teach you that rapists are not just men. It is important to note that women can be rapists too. People who file reports and accuse women of raping them are often made to feel that their rape isn't "valid".

Well, I did say "it is impossible to teach a person how not to rape". Whould using "she" later have been the correct way? Or "they"? I apologize, English is not my first language.

VulgarGirl

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

pinkrevenge said:

I don't understand why you're so insistent on this.
We are teaching people not to rape by teaching them exactly what rape is so that those who would have sexually assaulted someone out of ignorance don't do it.

No one said they can control people who know exactly what rape is and do it anyway, but it sure as shit would help get convictions and long prison times if people knew exactly what counted as rape. Rape WOULD go down because people would know what it is, know how serious it is, some would not do it, and everyone else would understand what a serious crime it is and the justice system would be more effective for it. Rapists would be far more like to get convictions and be in jail / monitored to keep from re-offending.

It seems like you're saying "Don't bother". If that is not your intention, you need to think of a new way to say it.

I insist because I think there is a significant difference between saying " we need to teach not to rape" and " we need to teach what rape is". You are right in saying that teaching people what rape is effectively may stop them from raping. But I truly think it is not the same as saying we tought them how not to rape. I think it is impossible to teach a person who already knows what rape is not to do it if his intention is to rape. As I said you can scare him off if he thinks the panishment will be severe, but again, that's in not teaching him not to do it.

I think someone needs to teach you that rapists are not just men. It is important to note that women can be rapists too. People who file reports and accuse women of raping them are often made to feel that their rape isn't "valid".

Well, I did say "it is impossible to teach a person how not to rape". Whould using "she" later have been the correct way? Or "they"? I apologize, English is not my first language.

You have been using exclusivly male pronouns. "Scared HIM off" "if HE thinks the punishment". They, them, ect are gender neutral pronouns. Or using s/he or him/her.