Wedding Etiquette Forum

How to respectfully decline yarmulke at wedding?

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Re: How to respectfully decline yarmulke at wedding?


  • LD1970 said:

    I'm Jewish.  My husband is atheist-raised-Catholic husband and I have been to a slew of my friends' kids' bar/bat mitzvahs.  He does not wear a kippah.  "No thank you" is FINE unless it's an orthodox shul.

    By the way, when in church for something, I'll stand and sit with anyone else, but will not ever kneel.

    Just curious, but why is that the line?  What's the difference between standing out of respect for the service and kneeling?  It's not like you are going up to take the Eucharist. 


    Judaism forbids it. When everyone else kneels, I sit.
    You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough. ~Mae West
  • Jen4948 said:

    Jen4948 said:


    MegEn1 said:

    Why is it such a big deal to dress respectfully for the situation you're in? Like, what about covering one's head or shoulders is SO DISTASTEFUL that they'd rather be disrespectful? 

    Well, like I said, I have no problem covering my shoulders. To me, covering my head is a much bigger deal. I have fundamental issues with the values being imposed on my by insisting I cover my head. Obviously this is pretty rare, but if I were offered a head covering at a Catholic wedding, my initial response would be "no thank you." If I were told it was mandatory, I would simply leave. I think being told as a woman to cover my head is disrespectful to me, and I would show my respect for the space I am in by leaving it.
    This doesn't fly. If you don't want to respect another religious rule, don't accept an invitation to a wedding in that religion. Expecting an exception for yourself isn't respectful of that religion.

    All men, regardless of their personal beliefs, are asked to cover their heads at Jewish weddings - non-Jews as well as Jews. It is mandatory for everyone.



    Like I said lower down, if I knew ahead of time I would decline the invitation. And if I didn't know ahead of time, I would leave.

    Covering your head for a man is not mandatory at all Jewish weddings.
    Yes, it is.
    No, it isn't.
    You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough. ~Mae West
  • LD1970 said:
    LD1970 said:
    I'm Jewish.  My husband is atheist-raised-Catholic husband and I have been to a slew of my friends' kids' bar/bat mitzvahs.  He does not wear a kippah.  "No thank you" is FINE unless it's an orthodox shul.

    By the way, when in church for something, I'll stand and sit with anyone else, but will not ever kneel.
    Just curious, but why is that the line?  What's the difference between standing out of respect for the service and kneeling?  It's not like you are going up to take the Eucharist. 
    Judaism forbids it. When everyone else kneels, I sit.
    I sit, too, and I stand respectfully when I take communion.  Very simply, if I get down on my old knees, it might take two strong men to help me get up again!
    httpiimgurcomTCCjW0wjpg
  • banana468 said:



    I'm surprised people are taking such a hard line on this. I attend Jewish weddings often and there are usually at least a handful of men not wearing a kippah, and my Jewish friends all say it's totally fine (none of them are Orthodox). I'd say "no thanks" or just not taking one would be fine.

    I also find it interesting that a couple people have mentioned that some Catholic Churches provide head coverings and shawls for women. I have no problem covering my shoulders and boobs, but would decline a head covering if offered.

    I'm thinking that this is a "when in Rome" thing as well as a respect thing.   My Catholic parish does not provide head coverings for women.   We are a bit more relaxed with attire in the summer (our town population swells in the summer with cottage dwellers) so shorts are rather common.   

    However, the attire that is permissible in the parish isn't permissible in many European churches especially if you intend to travel to Vatican City.   There you'll actually be turned away if you don't follow the rules.

     
    CMGragain said:

    The etiquette rule is "When in Rome.....".  You show respect for people's religious traditions.  I have been in mosques, cathedrals (both Catholic and Orthodox), Hindu temples and Buddhist temples. as well as Synagogues.  I always observe the traditions of the faith.  That does not affect my own faith in any way.
    I remember when ladies had to wear head coverings in the Catholic and the Episcopal church.  I was Presbyterian at the time, but I observed the tradition out of respect.
    If your husband refuses to respect the Jewish tradition of the yarmulke, then he should not attend the wedding at all.
    I think his attitude is bigoted, offensive and very ignorant.  JMHO.

    And I think this is a presumptuous, obnoxious, assholey, and in a way, even laughable thing to say, considering. So there you go.
    You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough. ~Mae West
  • Jen4948 said:
    Why is it such a big deal to dress respectfully for the situation you're in? Like, what about covering one's head or shoulders is SO DISTASTEFUL that they'd rather be disrespectful? 
    Well, like I said, I have no problem covering my shoulders. To me, covering my head is a much bigger deal. I have fundamental issues with the values being imposed on my by insisting I cover my head. Obviously this is pretty rare, but if I were offered a head covering at a Catholic wedding, my initial response would be "no thank you." If I were told it was mandatory, I would simply leave. I think being told as a woman to cover my head is disrespectful to me, and I would show my respect for the space I am in by leaving it.
    This doesn't fly. If you don't want to respect another religious rule, don't accept an invitation to a wedding in that religion. Expecting an exception for yourself isn't respectful of that religion. All men, regardless of their personal beliefs, are asked to cover their heads at Jewish weddings - non-Jews as well as Jews. It is mandatory for everyone.
    Like I said lower down, if I knew ahead of time I would decline the invitation. And if I didn't know ahead of time, I would leave. Covering your head for a man is not mandatory at all Jewish weddings.
    Yes, it is.
    No. It isn't. Not all rabbis require head coverings. Like, they just don't. There are all kinds of different Jews, who have different levels of observance. I have spoken to Reform rabbis who have specifically said they do not view it as mandatory. Most? Sure. Many? Absolutely. The vast majority? No dispute. But "all" is just not true.
    Sorry, but the rule is not based on what Reform rabbis believe. If the wedding is a Reform Jewish wedding with one of these rabbis officiating, then male attendees need not wear hats. But it is not appropriate of you to base your knowledge of the rules of etiquette regarding Jewish weddings, especially if they are not Reform, on what Reform rabbis have to say. It would be disrespectful of a male attendee at a non-Reform wedding to disregard the rule about covered heads. And yes, it's a rule.
    It's custom and tradition for men to wear a kippah, not a mitzvah (commandment, for non-Jews).  Custom and tradition vary.  It's just like any other difference of observance between various groups of Jews.



  • Jen4948 said:
    Jen4948 said:
    Why is it such a big deal to dress respectfully for the situation you're in? Like, what about covering one's head or shoulders is SO DISTASTEFUL that they'd rather be disrespectful? 
    Well, like I said, I have no problem covering my shoulders. To me, covering my head is a much bigger deal. I have fundamental issues with the values being imposed on my by insisting I cover my head. Obviously this is pretty rare, but if I were offered a head covering at a Catholic wedding, my initial response would be "no thank you." If I were told it was mandatory, I would simply leave. I think being told as a woman to cover my head is disrespectful to me, and I would show my respect for the space I am in by leaving it.
    This doesn't fly. If you don't want to respect another religious rule, don't accept an invitation to a wedding in that religion. Expecting an exception for yourself isn't respectful of that religion. All men, regardless of their personal beliefs, are asked to cover their heads at Jewish weddings - non-Jews as well as Jews. It is mandatory for everyone.
    Like I said lower down, if I knew ahead of time I would decline the invitation. And if I didn't know ahead of time, I would leave. Covering your head for a man is not mandatory at all Jewish weddings.
    Yes, it is.
    No. It isn't. Not all rabbis require head coverings. Like, they just don't. There are all kinds of different Jews, who have different levels of observance. I have spoken to Reform rabbis who have specifically said they do not view it as mandatory. Most? Sure. Many? Absolutely. The vast majority? No dispute. But "all" is just not true.
    Sorry, but the rule is not based on what Reform rabbis believe. If the wedding is a Reform Jewish wedding with one of these rabbis officiating, then male attendees need not wear hats. But it is not appropriate of you to base your knowledge of the rules of etiquette regarding Jewish weddings, especially if they are not Reform, on what Reform rabbis have to say. It would be disrespectful of a male attendee at a non-Reform wedding to disregard the rule about covered heads. And yes, it's a rule.
    It's custom and tradition for men to wear a kippah, not a mitzvah (commandment, for non-Jews).  Custom and tradition vary.  It's just like any other difference of observance between various groups of Jews.
    "When in Rome" is the rule of etiquette regarding the dress code at a synagogue or Jewish event. If the dress code requires covered heads, that applies to all males, Jewish or non-Jewish. Guests do not get to decide for themselves that the rules, whether liturgical or etiquette, doesn't apply to them individually and continue to be welcome, any more than other rules. Also, showing up, pouting about the rule, demanding an exemption from the rule for yourself, and leaving in a huff if you aren't given one, wins you nothing except questions regarding your respect for your hosts and their beliefs, customs, and rules as well as your maturity.
    Why did you quote my response?  Clearly you were not actually responding to me.  Or do you think that I said "Hey folks, if a Jewish event requires men to wear kippahs you, the guests, get to decide whether or not that rule applies to you.  Also, pouting and leaving in a huff if asked to wear a kippah when it's required is super duper awesome and you should totally do that"?

    Or are you just trying to distract us from you claiming that something is universal when it's actually not?



  • Jen4948 said:

    Jen4948 said:

    Jen4948 said:


    MegEn1 said:

    Why is it such a big deal to dress respectfully for the situation you're in? Like, what about covering one's head or shoulders is SO DISTASTEFUL that they'd rather be disrespectful? 

    Well, like I said, I have no problem covering my shoulders. To me, covering my head is a much bigger deal. I have fundamental issues with the values being imposed on my by insisting I cover my head. Obviously this is pretty rare, but if I were offered a head covering at a Catholic wedding, my initial response would be "no thank you." If I were told it was mandatory, I would simply leave. I think being told as a woman to cover my head is disrespectful to me, and I would show my respect for the space I am in by leaving it.
    This doesn't fly. If you don't want to respect another religious rule, don't accept an invitation to a wedding in that religion. Expecting an exception for yourself isn't respectful of that religion.

    All men, regardless of their personal beliefs, are asked to cover their heads at Jewish weddings - non-Jews as well as Jews. It is mandatory for everyone.



    Like I said lower down, if I knew ahead of time I would decline the invitation. And if I didn't know ahead of time, I would leave.

    Covering your head for a man is not mandatory at all Jewish weddings.
    Yes, it is.


    No. It isn't. Not all rabbis require head coverings. Like, they just don't. There are all kinds of different Jews, who have different levels of observance. I have spoken to Reform rabbis who have specifically said they do not view it as mandatory. Most? Sure. Many? Absolutely. The vast majority? No dispute. But "all" is just not true.
    Sorry, but the rule is not based on what Reform rabbis believe.

    If the wedding is a Reform Jewish wedding with one of these rabbis officiating, then male attendees need not wear hats. But it is not appropriate of you to base your knowledge of the rules of etiquette regarding Jewish weddings, especially if they are not Reform, on what Reform rabbis have to say. It would be disrespectful of a male attendee at a non-Reform wedding to disregard the rule about covered heads. And yes, it's a rule.

    This sounds a lot like you're basically saying reform rabbis are not Jews. Or do you just not understand words at all? You said it is a rule for all Jewish weddings. Yet you acknowledge (maybe) that there are at least some Reform rabbis who do not view this as a rule and do not impose it. Therefore IT IS NOT A RULE FOR ALL JEWS.
  • banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    I'm surprised people are taking such a hard line on this. I attend Jewish weddings often and there are usually at least a handful of men not wearing a kippah, and my Jewish friends all say it's totally fine (none of them are Orthodox). I'd say "no thanks" or just not taking one would be fine. I also find it interesting that a couple people have mentioned that some Catholic Churches provide head coverings and shawls for women. I have no problem covering my shoulders and boobs, but would decline a head covering if offered.
    I'm thinking that this is a "when in Rome" thing as well as a respect thing.   My Catholic parish does not provide head coverings for women.   We are a bit more relaxed with attire in the summer (our town population swells in the summer with cottage dwellers) so shorts are rather common.   

    However, the attire that is permissible in the parish isn't permissible in many European churches especially if you intend to travel to Vatican City.   There you'll actually be turned away if you don't follow the rules.

     
    I've never been to a Catholic mass anywhere in the country that require head coverings for women, where bare shoulders were a no-no women, where you couldn't wear shorts, jeans, etc.

    Not saying those types of strict parishes don't exist, but just that so far, in my area and in all the OOT weddings and funerals and summer vacation masses I have had to attend I have not experienced an uber strict parish.

    Obviously the Vatican is a different story, but I think most people know to look into the rules prior to just showing up for mass. . . at least I hope so!
    FWIW, the parish where I got married had a no bare shoulders rule.   So my mom went to the fabric store and made some linen shawls for the BM's to wear over their strapless dresses.   They also requested no major low cut as well.  Considering I have to put padding in my dresses to make it look like I have anything on top, that wasn't an issue.

    It's not uncommon to see women with head coverings in a parish that many of my IL's attend which is only 20 minutes from where I was married.   It's a much more conservative parish though.    And while I don't cover my head there, I do things like take Communion on the tongue (as opposed to the hand) as one of their requests. 
    Which has never made sense to me. . . so my shoulders are somehow offensive to God because ZOMG I might tempt one of the men in the parish, but it's ok to stick out my tongue at the priest to avoid having to physically touch the Eucharist with my "unclean" hands.

    /eyeroll

    I never stick out my tongue to take communion.  It's icky to me!

    ******************************SIB********************************

    Back before I became an atheist I was a converted Orthodox Christian. The Eucharist there is something special haha. There's no option for taking it in your hand - the bread is placed into the wine and the priest serves you a wine-soaked chunk of bread on a spoon. You want to talk about germs!
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  • Jen4948Jen4948 member
    First Anniversary First Answer First Comment 5 Love Its
    edited December 2015

    Jen4948 said:

    Jen4948 said:

    Jen4948 said:


    MegEn1 said:

    Why is it such a big deal to dress respectfully for the situation you're in? Like, what about covering one's head or shoulders is SO DISTASTEFUL that they'd rather be disrespectful? 

    Well, like I said, I have no problem covering my shoulders. To me, covering my head is a much bigger deal. I have fundamental issues with the values being imposed on my by insisting I cover my head. Obviously this is pretty rare, but if I were offered a head covering at a Catholic wedding, my initial response would be "no thank you." If I were told it was mandatory, I would simply leave. I think being told as a woman to cover my head is disrespectful to me, and I would show my respect for the space I am in by leaving it.
    This doesn't fly. If you don't want to respect another religious rule, don't accept an invitation to a wedding in that religion. Expecting an exception for yourself isn't respectful of that religion.

    All men, regardless of their personal beliefs, are asked to cover their heads at Jewish weddings - non-Jews as well as Jews. It is mandatory for everyone.



    Like I said lower down, if I knew ahead of time I would decline the invitation. And if I didn't know ahead of time, I would leave.

    Covering your head for a man is not mandatory at all Jewish weddings.
    Yes, it is.


    No. It isn't. Not all rabbis require head coverings. Like, they just don't. There are all kinds of different Jews, who have different levels of observance. I have spoken to Reform rabbis who have specifically said they do not view it as mandatory. Most? Sure. Many? Absolutely. The vast majority? No dispute. But "all" is just not true.
    Sorry, but the rule is not based on what Reform rabbis believe.

    If the wedding is a Reform Jewish wedding with one of these rabbis officiating, then male attendees need not wear hats. But it is not appropriate of you to base your knowledge of the rules of etiquette regarding Jewish weddings, especially if they are not Reform, on what Reform rabbis have to say. It would be disrespectful of a male attendee at a non-Reform wedding to disregard the rule about covered heads. And yes, it's a rule.

    This sounds a lot like you're basically saying reform rabbis are not Jews. Or do you just not understand words at all? You said it is a rule for all Jewish weddings. Yet you acknowledge (maybe) that there are at least some Reform rabbis who do not view this as a rule and do not impose it. Therefore IT IS NOT A RULE FOR ALL JEWS.
    I understand your words. However, you and Viczaesar are both wrong.

    Whether or not any Jews or non-Jews are required to cover their heads, you don't get to decide on someone else's territory whether or not you are going to follow the rules - regardless of who makes them.

    And you're splitting fucking hairs about the Reform vs. Orthodox thing, because at a non-Reform wedding, what Reform rabbis have to say don't apply. So what you said only applies to Reform weddings, and only if the particular rabbi or congregation agrees. They don't all agree with you either.

    What your whole argument amounts to is an attitude of "I'm going to take what one group of rabbis said and apply it to every single Jewish wedding I get invited to and leave in a huff if I'm not accommodated" which is entitled, rude, obnoxious, and immature.
  • Jen4948 said:

    Jen4948 said:

    Jen4948 said:

    Jen4948 said:


    MegEn1 said:

    Why is it such a big deal to dress respectfully for the situation you're in? Like, what about covering one's head or shoulders is SO DISTASTEFUL that they'd rather be disrespectful? 

    Well, like I said, I have no problem covering my shoulders. To me, covering my head is a much bigger deal. I have fundamental issues with the values being imposed on my by insisting I cover my head. Obviously this is pretty rare, but if I were offered a head covering at a Catholic wedding, my initial response would be "no thank you." If I were told it was mandatory, I would simply leave. I think being told as a woman to cover my head is disrespectful to me, and I would show my respect for the space I am in by leaving it.
    This doesn't fly. If you don't want to respect another religious rule, don't accept an invitation to a wedding in that religion. Expecting an exception for yourself isn't respectful of that religion.

    All men, regardless of their personal beliefs, are asked to cover their heads at Jewish weddings - non-Jews as well as Jews. It is mandatory for everyone.



    Like I said lower down, if I knew ahead of time I would decline the invitation. And if I didn't know ahead of time, I would leave.

    Covering your head for a man is not mandatory at all Jewish weddings.
    Yes, it is.


    No. It isn't. Not all rabbis require head coverings. Like, they just don't. There are all kinds of different Jews, who have different levels of observance. I have spoken to Reform rabbis who have specifically said they do not view it as mandatory. Most? Sure. Many? Absolutely. The vast majority? No dispute. But "all" is just not true.
    Sorry, but the rule is not based on what Reform rabbis believe.

    If the wedding is a Reform Jewish wedding with one of these rabbis officiating, then male attendees need not wear hats. But it is not appropriate of you to base your knowledge of the rules of etiquette regarding Jewish weddings, especially if they are not Reform, on what Reform rabbis have to say. It would be disrespectful of a male attendee at a non-Reform wedding to disregard the rule about covered heads. And yes, it's a rule.

    This sounds a lot like you're basically saying reform rabbis are not Jews. Or do you just not understand words at all? You said it is a rule for all Jewish weddings. Yet you acknowledge (maybe) that there are at least some Reform rabbis who do not view this as a rule and do not impose it. Therefore IT IS NOT A RULE FOR ALL JEWS.
    I understand your words. However, you and Viczaesar are both wrong.

    Whether or not any Jews or non-Jews are required to cover their heads, you don't get to decide on someone else's territory whether or not you are going to follow the rules - regardless of who makes them.

    And you're splitting fucking hairs about the Reform vs. Orthodox thing, because at a non-Reform wedding, what Reform rabbis have to say don't apply. So what you said only applies to Reform weddings, and only if the particular rabbi or congregation agrees. They don't all agree with you either.

    What your whole argument amounts to is an attitude of "I'm going to take what one group of rabbis said and apply it to every single Jewish wedding I get invited to and leave in a huff if I'm not accommodated" which is entitled, rude, obnoxious, and immature.


    Not at all. I never said anything about leaving in a huff, wouldn't personally be asked to wear a kippah anyway, and would not apply it to every Jewish wedding. My only argument with you is your ridiculous insistance that men covering their heads is a requirement of all Jewish weddings, which is demonstrably false.
  • I'm a pretty hardline feminist, and I would definitely not cover my head for mass, but that's because I would read a history of oppression into it. Particularly, oppression by religious institutions which goes back centuries. For a Catholic man, there is no history of oppression with regards to the Jewish faith. I can't think of a legitimate cause that would be furthered by a man refusing to show respect by covering his head. I don't think there's any way for him to have good manners and not wear a head covering - though a hat is acceptable. No, no one will say anything or likely think about it again if he doesn't, but it's still disrespectful and impolite.

    Jen4948 said:
    "When in Rome" is the rule of etiquette regarding the dress code at a synagogue or Jewish event. If the dress code requires covered heads, that applies to all males, Jewish or non-Jewish. Guests do not get to decide for themselves that the rules, whether liturgical or etiquette, doesn't apply to them individually and continue to be welcome, any more than other rules. Also, showing up, pouting about the rule, demanding an exemption from the rule for yourself, and leaving in a huff if you aren't given one, wins you nothing except questions regarding your respect for your hosts and their beliefs, customs, and rules as well as your maturity.
    Can I love this a thousand times? 

    Additionally, I disagree pretty vehemently with the feminist argument and I say that as a feminist. Just because you or I may think it's stupid or offensive to be asked to cover head or shoulders doesn't mean that's the way everyone thinks or believes. When you agree to enter these spaces, you agree to abide by the rules in those spaces. Aren't willing to? Don't go in. But don't seek special treatment going into a synagogue, mosque, or conservative church because you think the man is trying to get you down. There's plenty of women in those spaces to who are there by their own CHOICE because they see the covering of the hair, shoulders, hell even face to be respectful and modest. Trying to seek special treatment in those places because you think it is oppressive is disrespectful to all the women in those space who find much more than modesty in their choices to be covered in religious areas. 

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  • CMGragain said:

    I believe that head coverings for women in the Catholic Church ended in the 1960s with Vatican 2. 

    The explicit requirement ended. I know several women in their 20s / 30s who wear a veil for Mass.
  • MegEn1 said:




    I'm a pretty hardline feminist, and I would definitely not cover my head for mass, but that's because I would read a history of oppression into it. Particularly, oppression by religious institutions which goes back centuries.

    For a Catholic man, there is no history of oppression with regards to the Jewish faith. I can't think of a legitimate cause that would be furthered by a man refusing to show respect by covering his head.

    I don't think there's any way for him to have good manners and not wear a head covering - though a hat is acceptable. No, no one will say anything or likely think about it again if he doesn't, but it's still disrespectful and impolite.

    Jen4948 said:


    "When in Rome" is the rule of etiquette regarding the dress code at a synagogue or Jewish event. If the dress code requires covered heads, that applies to all males, Jewish or non-Jewish.

    Guests do not get to decide for themselves that the rules, whether liturgical or etiquette, doesn't apply to them individually and continue to be welcome, any more than other rules.

    Also, showing up, pouting about the rule, demanding an exemption from the rule for yourself, and leaving in a huff if you aren't given one, wins you nothing except questions regarding your respect for your hosts and their beliefs, customs, and rules as well as your maturity.


    Can I love this a thousand times? 

    Additionally, I disagree pretty vehemently with the feminist argument and I say that as a feminist. Just because you or I may think it's stupid or offensive to be asked to cover head or shoulders doesn't mean that's the way everyone thinks or believes. When you agree to enter these spaces, you agree to abide by the rules in those spaces. Aren't willing to? Don't go in. But don't seek special treatment going into a synagogue, mosque, or conservative church because you think the man is trying to get you down. There's plenty of women in those spaces to who are there by their own CHOICE because they see the covering of the hair, shoulders, hell even face to be respectful and modest. Trying to seek special treatment in those places because you think it is oppressive is disrespectful to all the women in those space who find much more than modesty in their choices to be covered in religious areas. 


    The phrase "The Man" refers to the government, not men in general.

    Pretty sure Starmoon said she wouldn't attend any service that required her to cover her head. . .how is that seeking special treatment?

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


  • I'm a pretty hardline feminist, and I would definitely not cover my head for mass, but that's because I would read a history of oppression into it. Particularly, oppression by religious institutions which goes back centuries. For a Catholic man, there is no history of oppression with regards to the Jewish faith. I can't think of a legitimate cause that would be furthered by a man refusing to show respect by covering his head. I don't think there's any way for him to have good manners and not wear a head covering - though a hat is acceptable. No, no one will say anything or likely think about it again if he doesn't, but it's still disrespectful and impolite.

    Jen4948 said:
    "When in Rome" is the rule of etiquette regarding the dress code at a synagogue or Jewish event. If the dress code requires covered heads, that applies to all males, Jewish or non-Jewish. Guests do not get to decide for themselves that the rules, whether liturgical or etiquette, doesn't apply to them individually and continue to be welcome, any more than other rules. Also, showing up, pouting about the rule, demanding an exemption from the rule for yourself, and leaving in a huff if you aren't given one, wins you nothing except questions regarding your respect for your hosts and their beliefs, customs, and rules as well as your maturity.
    Can I love this a thousand times? 

    Additionally, I disagree pretty vehemently with the feminist argument and I say that as a feminist. Just because you or I may think it's stupid or offensive to be asked to cover head or shoulders doesn't mean that's the way everyone thinks or believes. When you agree to enter these spaces, you agree to abide by the rules in those spaces. Aren't willing to? Don't go in. But don't seek special treatment going into a synagogue, mosque, or conservative church because you think the man is trying to get you down. There's plenty of women in those spaces to who are there by their own CHOICE because they see the covering of the hair, shoulders, hell even face to be respectful and modest. Trying to seek special treatment in those places because you think it is oppressive is disrespectful to all the women in those space who find much more than modesty in their choices to be covered in religious areas. 
    The phrase "The Man" refers to the government, not men in general. Pretty sure Starmoon said she wouldn't attend any service that required her to cover her head. . .how is that seeking special treatment?
    I think that specifically speaks to how she'd decline if asked or offered covering. If you're offered covering before going into a place of worship, and you say 'No thanks' and walk in anyway that's basically accepting that what you're about to do will be considered inappropriate but doing it anyway. That's how I read it, but I could be mistaken. 

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  • MegEn1 said:



    MegEn1 said:




    I'm a pretty hardline feminist, and I would definitely not cover my head for mass, but that's because I would read a history of oppression into it. Particularly, oppression by religious institutions which goes back centuries.

    For a Catholic man, there is no history of oppression with regards to the Jewish faith. I can't think of a legitimate cause that would be furthered by a man refusing to show respect by covering his head.

    I don't think there's any way for him to have good manners and not wear a head covering - though a hat is acceptable. No, no one will say anything or likely think about it again if he doesn't, but it's still disrespectful and impolite.

    Jen4948 said:


    "When in Rome" is the rule of etiquette regarding the dress code at a synagogue or Jewish event. If the dress code requires covered heads, that applies to all males, Jewish or non-Jewish.

    Guests do not get to decide for themselves that the rules, whether liturgical or etiquette, doesn't apply to them individually and continue to be welcome, any more than other rules.

    Also, showing up, pouting about the rule, demanding an exemption from the rule for yourself, and leaving in a huff if you aren't given one, wins you nothing except questions regarding your respect for your hosts and their beliefs, customs, and rules as well as your maturity.


    Can I love this a thousand times? 

    Additionally, I disagree pretty vehemently with the feminist argument and I say that as a feminist. Just because you or I may think it's stupid or offensive to be asked to cover head or shoulders doesn't mean that's the way everyone thinks or believes. When you agree to enter these spaces, you agree to abide by the rules in those spaces. Aren't willing to? Don't go in. But don't seek special treatment going into a synagogue, mosque, or conservative church because you think the man is trying to get you down. There's plenty of women in those spaces to who are there by their own CHOICE because they see the covering of the hair, shoulders, hell even face to be respectful and modest. Trying to seek special treatment in those places because you think it is oppressive is disrespectful to all the women in those space who find much more than modesty in their choices to be covered in religious areas. 
    The phrase "The Man" refers to the government, not men in general.

    Pretty sure Starmoon said she wouldn't attend any service that required her to cover her head. . .how is that seeking special treatment?

    I think that specifically speaks to how she'd decline if asked or offered covering. If you're offered covering before going into a place of worship, and you say 'No thanks' and walk in anyway that's basically accepting that what you're about to do will be considered inappropriate but doing it anyway. That's how I read it, but I could be mistaken. 



    No that's not what I meant, but I can see how I worded it confusingly. If women are required to cover their heads in a space, I would definitely not walk in anyway. I would start by saying "no thank you" because it's a less disruptive move than saying "actually I don't cover my head because of personal feelings is this really required explain it to me" but still gives the other person the option to say "oh, actually everyone needs one" if that is the case.

    Because I do think spaces exist where everyone might be offered some sort of customary item, whether it's a covering or a bible or something else, but where it would be okay for people to decline, and I wouldn't be wanting to just turn around and leave if, in fact, it was okay with the people in charge for me to decline xyz item but still attend.
  • The phrase "The Man" refers to the government, not men in general. Pretty sure Starmoon said she wouldn't attend any service that required her to cover her head. . .how is that seeking special treatment?
    I think that specifically speaks to how she'd decline if asked or offered covering. If you're offered covering before going into a place of worship, and you say 'No thanks' and walk in anyway that's basically accepting that what you're about to do will be considered inappropriate but doing it anyway. That's how I read it, but I could be mistaken. 
    No that's not what I meant, but I can see how I worded it confusingly. If women are required to cover their heads in a space, I would definitely not walk in anyway. I would start by saying "no thank you" because it's a less disruptive move than saying "actually I don't cover my head because of personal feelings is this really required explain it to me" but still gives the other person the option to say "oh, actually everyone needs one" if that is the case. Because I do think spaces exist where everyone might be offered some sort of customary item, whether it's a covering or a bible or something else, but where it would be okay for people to decline, and I wouldn't be wanting to just turn around and leave if, in fact, it was okay with the people in charge for me to decline xyz item but still attend.
    Oh so I guess we've just spent a page on the tread trying to agree with each other. :) 

    Achievement Unlocked: Survived Your Wedding! 
  • I believe that women are required to wear a veil if they have an audience with the Pope.  Just curious, @STARMOON44 .... if you had the opportunity to have an audience with the Pope & the requirement was to wear a veil, would you turn it down because of that?
  • I believe that women are required to wear a veil if they have an audience with the Pope.  Just curious, @STARMOON44 .... if you had the opportunity to have an audience with the Pope & the requirement was to wear a veil, would you turn it down because of that?
    Supposedly this isn't true anymore, the formal dress is no longer required: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audience_(meeting)

    I say supposedly because I'm trying to find the original source material cited in the wikipedia link, lol.

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


  • I believe that women are required to wear a veil if they have an audience with the Pope.  Just curious, @STARMOON44 .... if you had the opportunity to have an audience with the Pope & the requirement was to wear a veil, would you turn it down because of that?


    Yes absolutely! It's something that really does matter to me. Although, again, I would ask if it were a requirement- the current Pope has been quite a bit more relaxed about this (Queen Elizabeth didn't wear a veil on her most recent visit) and if I'm talking about an audience with the Pope I'm sure there will be a minor flunky with a definitive answer to the question in advance.
  • I believe that women are required to wear a veil if they have an audience with the Pope.  Just curious, @STARMOON44 .... if you had the opportunity to have an audience with the Pope & the requirement was to wear a veil, would you turn it down because of that?
    Supposedly this isn't true anymore, the formal dress is no longer required: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audience_(meeting)

    I say supposedly because I'm trying to find the original source material cited in the wikipedia link, lol.
    I know, I've been Googling and haven't found anything definitive from a legit source.  The closest I found was this.  I don't know how seriously I'd take it, though.  When the Vatican calls me and tells me that Pope Francis wants to meet me, I'll let you know what they say ;).

    I know of someone who got to meet with the Pope in Rome a few weeks ago.  From the pictures, she wasn't wearing a veil.  However, it wasn't an "official" meeting.  They had really good connections and the whole thing was about knowing the right people and being at the right place at the right time.  

    I think the parallel is still a fair one ... there is some disagreement on this thread regarding whether the yarmulke is required or not.  The general concensus is that it is respectful to wear it.  Similarly, if you have an official meeting with the Pope, it would be respectful to honor the standard and wear a veil.  
  • Very good friends of the family were able to meet the Pope.   It was outside in the square but he came up to the family members including the family member's SDIL who is blind and in a wheelchair.   No females were wearing head coverings but they were all dressed modestly.   No tube tops among them!
  • I believe that women are required to wear a veil if they have an audience with the Pope.  Just curious, @STARMOON44 .... if you had the opportunity to have an audience with the Pope & the requirement was to wear a veil, would you turn it down because of that?
    Yes absolutely! It's something that really does matter to me. Although, again, I would ask if it were a requirement- the current Pope has been quite a bit more relaxed about this (Queen Elizabeth didn't wear a veil on her most recent visit) and if I'm talking about an audience with the Pope I'm sure there will be a minor flunky with a definitive answer to the question in advance.
    From what I've read, queens are exempt from the the "requirement" of the head coverings.  But I do agree that Pope Francis does not seem like the type who would turn away someone just because she wasn't wearing a veil.

    It was just a "fun" hypothetical.  Just curious. 


  • I believe that women are required to wear a veil if they have an audience with the Pope.  Just curious, @STARMOON44 .... if you had the opportunity to have an audience with the Pope & the requirement was to wear a veil, would you turn it down because of that?

    Yes absolutely! It's something that really does matter to me. Although, again, I would ask if it were a requirement- the current Pope has been quite a bit more relaxed about this (Queen Elizabeth didn't wear a veil on her most recent visit) and if I'm talking about an audience with the Pope I'm sure there will be a minor flunky with a definitive answer to the question in advance.

    From what I've read, queens are exempt from the the "requirement" of the head coverings.  But I do agree that Pope Francis does not seem like the type who would turn away someone just because she wasn't wearing a veil.

    It was just a "fun" hypothetical.  Just curious. 

    Promise if I get a papal invite I'll transfer it to you anyway :)
  • LD1970 said:
    By the way, when in church for something, I'll stand and sit with anyone else, but will not ever kneel.
    Just curious, but why is that the line?  What's the difference between standing out of respect for the service and kneeling?  It's not like you are going up to take the Eucharist. 
    I can't speak for @LD1970 but I can see the line between standing and kneeling as the same as that between respect and submission. Might be a slight difference to some but I can understand drawing the line there.

    My mother raised us Catholic but my father is not, and when we all go to Mass together he stands but doesn't kneel. I think remaining seated while everyone stands would be seen as disrespectful to many, whereas remaining seated while everyone kneels is understandable.
  • I believe that women are required to wear a veil if they have an audience with the Pope.  Just curious, @STARMOON44 .... if you had the opportunity to have an audience with the Pope & the requirement was to wear a veil, would you turn it down because of that?
    Yes absolutely! It's something that really does matter to me. Although, again, I would ask if it were a requirement- the current Pope has been quite a bit more relaxed about this (Queen Elizabeth didn't wear a veil on her most recent visit) and if I'm talking about an audience with the Pope I'm sure there will be a minor flunky with a definitive answer to the question in advance.
    From what I've read, queens are exempt from the the "requirement" of the head coverings.  But I do agree that Pope Francis does not seem like the type who would turn away someone just because she wasn't wearing a veil.

    It was just a "fun" hypothetical.  Just curious. 
    Promise if I get a papal invite I'll transfer it to you anyway :)
    hahahaha - thanks!!

  • LD1970 said:
    By the way, when in church for something, I'll stand and sit with anyone else, but will not ever kneel.
    Just curious, but why is that the line?  What's the difference between standing out of respect for the service and kneeling?  It's not like you are going up to take the Eucharist. 
    I can't speak for @LD1970 but I can see the line between standing and kneeling as the same as that between respect and submission. Might be a slight difference to some but I can understand drawing the line there.

    My mother raised us Catholic but my father is not, and when we all go to Mass together he stands but doesn't kneel. I think remaining seated while everyone stands would be seen as disrespectful to many, whereas remaining seated while everyone kneels is understandable.
    When I go to something like a wedding or baptism and non-Catholics are there, my experience is that they don't kneel during the Eucharist.  Totally a non issue for me.  The only time it's awkward is when they are sitting in the pew directly in front of me and I'm kneeling and I'm scared that I'm literally breathing down their neck.  
  • CMGragainCMGragain member
    First Anniversary First Comment First Answer 5 Love Its
    edited December 2015
    I believe the Queen always wears a hat when visiting anyplace except with formal dress, and then she wears a tiara.  This qualifies as a head covering.  If you go to many protestant churches, especially in the south, it is still customary for ladies to wear hats to church.
    In the early 1960s, I always wore a chapel cap to morning matins in the Episcopal school I attended.  The girls who forgot would actually clip a Kleenex to their head!
    httpiimgurcomTCCjW0wjpg
  • CMGragain said:

    I believe the Queen always wears a hat when visiting anyplace except with formal dress, and then she wears a tiara.  This qualifies as a head covering.  If you go to many protestant churches, especially in the south, it is still customary for ladies to wear hats to church.

    On previous papal visits, she wore veils. Just FYI. I love her headgear generally.
  • I'm late to the convo but to answer the OP...I'm a practicing Catholic and my family are practicing Catholics.  My Father has gone to numerous Jewish weddings and Bar/Bat Mitzvahs....and not once has he thought to refuse a Yarmulke.  In my opinion, I actually think it is disrespectful to refuse it, since in that religion, the men are expected to wear them while in temple....

    It's temporary and he only has to wear it for a couple hours...You're not betraying the Catholic religion by doing this.

    Also, I'd like to add that if people of other religions attend a Catholic mass, I would expect them to sit down, stand up, and kneel with everyone else....I wouldn't expect them to receive the Eucharist, donate money in the basket, or pray along with us during group prayer. 

    Just adding my three cents.
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