Wedding Etiquette Forum

How to respectfully decline yarmulke at wedding?

124

Re: How to respectfully decline yarmulke at wedding?

  • Jen4948 said:
    Why is it such a big deal to dress respectfully for the situation you're in? Like, what about covering one's head or shoulders is SO DISTASTEFUL that they'd rather be disrespectful? 
    Well, like I said, I have no problem covering my shoulders. To me, covering my head is a much bigger deal. I have fundamental issues with the values being imposed on my by insisting I cover my head. Obviously this is pretty rare, but if I were offered a head covering at a Catholic wedding, my initial response would be "no thank you." If I were told it was mandatory, I would simply leave. I think being told as a woman to cover my head is disrespectful to me, and I would show my respect for the space I am in by leaving it.
    This doesn't fly. If you don't want to respect another religious rule, don't accept an invitation to a wedding in that religion. Expecting an exception for yourself isn't respectful of that religion. All men, regardless of their personal beliefs, are asked to cover their heads at Jewish weddings - non-Jews as well as Jews. It is mandatory for everyone.
    Like I said lower down, if I knew ahead of time I would decline the invitation. And if I didn't know ahead of time, I would leave. Covering your head for a man is not mandatory at all Jewish weddings.
    Yes, it is.
    No. It isn't. Not all rabbis require head coverings. Like, they just don't. There are all kinds of different Jews, who have different levels of observance. I have spoken to Reform rabbis who have specifically said they do not view it as mandatory. Most? Sure. Many? Absolutely. The vast majority? No dispute. But "all" is just not true.
    Sorry, but the rule is not based on what Reform rabbis believe. If the wedding is a Reform Jewish wedding with one of these rabbis officiating, then male attendees need not wear hats. But it is not appropriate of you to base your knowledge of the rules of etiquette regarding Jewish weddings, especially if they are not Reform, on what Reform rabbis have to say. It would be disrespectful of a male attendee at a non-Reform wedding to disregard the rule about covered heads. And yes, it's a rule.
    This sounds a lot like you're basically saying reform rabbis are not Jews. Or do you just not understand words at all? You said it is a rule for all Jewish weddings. Yet you acknowledge (maybe) that there are at least some Reform rabbis who do not view this as a rule and do not impose it. Therefore IT IS NOT A RULE FOR ALL JEWS.
    I understand your words. However, you and Viczaesar are both wrong. Whether or not any Jews or non-Jews are required to cover their heads, you don't get to decide on someone else's territory whether or not you are going to follow the rules - regardless of who makes them. And you're splitting fucking hairs about the Reform vs. Orthodox thing, because at a non-Reform wedding, what Reform rabbis have to say don't apply. So what you said only applies to Reform weddings, and only if the particular rabbi or congregation agrees. They don't all agree with you either. What your whole argument amounts to is an attitude of "I'm going to take what one group of rabbis said and apply it to every single Jewish wedding I get invited to and leave in a huff if I'm not accommodated" which is entitled, rude, obnoxious, and immature.
    Funny how NEITHER OF US SAID THAT.  Any of that.  We have no idea whether this is a Reform wedding or not, but that's immaterial to this discussion.  All we're debating is whether or not it is a universal rule.  You said universal.  People said not universal and cited certain Reform rabbis as example.  You then started bitching about not following the rules when in Rome blah blah blah.  Your reading comprehension sucks, as usual.  The only thing that I've seen posted that is factually wrong is YOUR claim that the rule to cover heads for men is universal.  It is not.  Period, end of story.  As someone else stipulated it's common, widespread, even applies to most Jewish events - but it is NOT UNIVERSAL. 



  • MegEn1 said:
    I'm a pretty hardline feminist, and I would definitely not cover my head for mass, but that's because I would read a history of oppression into it. Particularly, oppression by religious institutions which goes back centuries. For a Catholic man, there is no history of oppression with regards to the Jewish faith. I can't think of a legitimate cause that would be furthered by a man refusing to show respect by covering his head. I don't think there's any way for him to have good manners and not wear a head covering - though a hat is acceptable. No, no one will say anything or likely think about it again if he doesn't, but it's still disrespectful and impolite.

    Jen4948 said:
    "When in Rome" is the rule of etiquette regarding the dress code at a synagogue or Jewish event. If the dress code requires covered heads, that applies to all males, Jewish or non-Jewish. Guests do not get to decide for themselves that the rules, whether liturgical or etiquette, doesn't apply to them individually and continue to be welcome, any more than other rules. Also, showing up, pouting about the rule, demanding an exemption from the rule for yourself, and leaving in a huff if you aren't given one, wins you nothing except questions regarding your respect for your hosts and their beliefs, customs, and rules as well as your maturity.
    Can I love this a thousand times? 

    Additionally, I disagree pretty vehemently with the feminist argument and I say that as a feminist. Just because you or I may think it's stupid or offensive to be asked to cover head or shoulders doesn't mean that's the way everyone thinks or believes. When you agree to enter these spaces, you agree to abide by the rules in those spaces. Aren't willing to? Don't go in. But don't seek special treatment going into a synagogue, mosque, or conservative church because you think the man is trying to get you down. There's plenty of women in those spaces to who are there by their own CHOICE because they see the covering of the hair, shoulders, hell even face to be respectful and modest. Trying to seek special treatment in those places because you think it is oppressive is disrespectful to all the women in those space who find much more than modesty in their choices to be covered in religious areas. 
    Who exactly said anything about seeking special treatment?  PPs are perfectly within their rights to decide that they're not comfortable with being asked to cover their heads and some have stated that if it were required they'd decline to attend.  I saw nobody say anything at all about pouting or demanding an exception or leaving in a huff.  I myself said nothing at all about what I would decide to do, which is why I find it bizarre that Jen#s posted that in response to my post and then you decided you wanted to love it a thousand times. 



  • MegEn1MegEn1 member
    First Anniversary First Comment 5 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2015
    Viczaesar said:
    MegEn1 said:
    I'm a pretty hardline feminist, and I would definitely not cover my head for mass, but that's because I would read a history of oppression into it. Particularly, oppression by religious institutions which goes back centuries. For a Catholic man, there is no history of oppression with regards to the Jewish faith. I can't think of a legitimate cause that would be furthered by a man refusing to show respect by covering his head. I don't think there's any way for him to have good manners and not wear a head covering - though a hat is acceptable. No, no one will say anything or likely think about it again if he doesn't, but it's still disrespectful and impolite.

    Jen4948 said:
    "When in Rome" is the rule of etiquette regarding the dress code at a synagogue or Jewish event. If the dress code requires covered heads, that applies to all males, Jewish or non-Jewish. Guests do not get to decide for themselves that the rules, whether liturgical or etiquette, doesn't apply to them individually and continue to be welcome, any more than other rules. Also, showing up, pouting about the rule, demanding an exemption from the rule for yourself, and leaving in a huff if you aren't given one, wins you nothing except questions regarding your respect for your hosts and their beliefs, customs, and rules as well as your maturity.
    Can I love this a thousand times? 

    Additionally, I disagree pretty vehemently with the feminist argument and I say that as a feminist. Just because you or I may think it's stupid or offensive to be asked to cover head or shoulders doesn't mean that's the way everyone thinks or believes. When you agree to enter these spaces, you agree to abide by the rules in those spaces. Aren't willing to? Don't go in. But don't seek special treatment going into a synagogue, mosque, or conservative church because you think the man is trying to get you down. There's plenty of women in those spaces to who are there by their own CHOICE because they see the covering of the hair, shoulders, hell even face to be respectful and modest. Trying to seek special treatment in those places because you think it is oppressive is disrespectful to all the women in those space who find much more than modesty in their choices to be covered in religious areas. 
    Who exactly said anything about seeking special treatment?  PPs are perfectly within their rights to decide that they're not comfortable with being asked to cover their heads and some have stated that if it were required they'd decline to attend.  I saw nobody say anything at all about pouting or demanding an exception or leaving in a huff.  I myself said nothing at all about what I would decide to do, which is why I find it bizarre that Jen#s posted that in response to my post and then you decided you wanted to love it a thousand times. 
    If you read back through the thread this was a misunderstanding with some wording from one of @STARMOON44 posts. When she said she would say "no thank you" if offered a head covering and leave if it was insisted, a few of us took that to understand that she'd refuse and go in anyway unless someone specifically insisted. She clarified, we oops-ied. :)

    As for my loving @Jen4948post a thousand times, I purposefully called out a bolded line in her post. Not so much to do with you but just in general -- I cannot stand people who demand special treatment when they've voluntarily entered a space that has different rules of etiquette or social norms than the ones they think are best. It was a general approval for her wording on a topic that irks the bejesus out of me. 

    Achievement Unlocked: Survived Your Wedding! 
  • LD1970 said:
    mrsdowster, Kneeling during prayer is forbidden in Judaism.  Don't expect it from us or you'll be disappointed.  You'd also be wrong to take it as disrespect.

    I used my husband as an example of someone who has been to events in synagogues with me.  (NOT "temple," as that's offensive to religious Jews - since I know you're all looking to refrain from offending - because it trivializes The Temple in Jerusalem, which was destroyed.  I was raised and taught to say only shul or synagogue, never temple.)

    Over the years, I have belonged to both conservative and orthodox synagogues.  Events we've attended have been in conservative and reform synagogues.  There is NOTHING rude about saying "No, thank you," and as stated by the correct people above, covering one's head in a reform and most conservative synagogues is a CUSTOM, not a RULE.  I never said my husband got huffy, defensive, rude, or stormed out.  I said that kippahs have been OFFERED to, not FOISTED upon him, either by being in a basket at the entrance or by someone handing them out.  He's either simply not taken one from the basket or politely said, "No, thank you" to the person offering.  There was no confrontation or issue.  The basket wasn't struck by lightning (and neither was my husband), and the human said, "OK," and moved on to the next guest.  Done and done.

    It should be noted that as a married woman, I'm supposed to, under Jewish law, keep my head covered *at all times*.  Not just in synagogue, but definitely in synagogue.  I don't, and I don't cover my head for events in synagogue either.  Interestingly, no one's ever approached me trying to offer me one of those lace bits they hand out, or looked at me strangely for not covering my head.  I didn't even realize the omission until just now.  At any rate, these are my stomping grounds, my "space," if you will, and I'm telling you myself it's not a rule unless you're in an orthodox shul, and it's not rude.

    Now, were we invited to an orthodox shul for an event, I'd warn H about the need to wear a kippah and have to make a choice on whether I would go and cover my head as well.  I wouldn't expect to go to an orthodox event and not cover.
    -----------------------------------------------------
    SITB

    @LD1970  Thanks for clarifying.

    I really don't care if I offended anyone or not or if I'm wrong. Maybe my response was a little too long but basically I just wanted to let the OP know that, as other PP's have stated the "when in Rome" attitude...just take the yarmulke when offered in the synagogue.
  • LD1970 said:
    mrsdowster, Kneeling during prayer is forbidden in Judaism.  Don't expect it from us or you'll be disappointed.  You'd also be wrong to take it as disrespect.

    I used my husband as an example of someone who has been to events in synagogues with me.  (NOT "temple," as that's offensive to religious Jews - since I know you're all looking to refrain from offending - because it trivializes The Temple in Jerusalem, which was destroyed.  I was raised and taught to say only shul or synagogue, never temple.)

    Over the years, I have belonged to both conservative and orthodox synagogues.  Events we've attended have been in conservative and reform synagogues.  There is NOTHING rude about saying "No, thank you," and as stated by the correct people above, covering one's head in a reform and most conservative synagogues is a CUSTOM, not a RULE.  I never said my husband got huffy, defensive, rude, or stormed out.  I said that kippahs have been OFFERED to, not FOISTED upon him, either by being in a basket at the entrance or by someone handing them out.  He's either simply not taken one from the basket or politely said, "No, thank you" to the person offering.  There was no confrontation or issue.  The basket wasn't struck by lightning (and neither was my husband), and the human said, "OK," and moved on to the next guest.  Done and done.

    It should be noted that as a married woman, I'm supposed to, under Jewish law, keep my head covered *at all times*.  Not just in synagogue, but definitely in synagogue.  I don't, and I don't cover my head for events in synagogue either.  Interestingly, no one's ever approached me trying to offer me one of those lace bits they hand out, or looked at me strangely for not covering my head.  I didn't even realize the omission until just now.  At any rate, these are my stomping grounds, my "space," if you will, and I'm telling you myself it's not a rule unless you're in an orthodox shul, and it's not rude.

    Now, were we invited to an orthodox shul for an event, I'd warn H about the need to wear a kippah and have to make a choice on whether I would go and cover my head as well.  I wouldn't expect to go to an orthodox event and not cover.
    -----------------------------------------------------
    SITB

    @LD1970  Thanks for clarifying.

    I really don't care if I offended anyone or not or if I'm wrong. Maybe my response was a little too long but basically I just wanted to let the OP know that, as other PP's have stated the "when in Rome" attitude...just take the yarmulke when offered in the synagogue.
    "I really don't care if I'm wrong" is such an interesting viewpoint.
    oh Boy, let the nit-picking begin. I guess that is what i get for typing a long response to the OP.

    As for my "I really don't care" bit, this is in response to LD's bolded quote above.  I'm not trying to be politically correct here...but if you noticed, LD clarified and I corrected.

    have a great weekend.
  • LD1970LD1970 member
    First Anniversary First Comment 5 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited December 2015
    Perhaps I should have clarified in my post - that first bit was to MrsDowster (just about kneeling), the remainder of the post was to everyone.  Sorry.
    You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough. ~Mae West
  • CMGragain said:
    I believe the Queen always wears a hat when visiting anyplace except with formal dress, and then she wears a tiara.  This qualifies as a head covering.  If you go to many protestant churches, especially in the south, it is still customary for ladies to wear hats to church.
    In the early 1960s, I always wore a chapel cap to morning matins in the Episcopal school I attended.  The girls who forgot would actually clip a Kleenex to their head!
    I attended parochial school through college.  In elementary school, we attended Mass daily.  When our uniform "beanie" was forgotten, Kleenex was definitely the "go to" standard.  Many girls also wore a circular, lace mantilla.  The "cool girls" would fold it in half and pin it with a bobby pin.  Memories.......

  • @Mobkaz Just curious, why the head covering?

    I read in someone's previous post they disagree with head covering because it's oppressive to women. So I envisioned a large head covering, covering all the hair, and likely the neck. But the head covering in Mobkaz's post is literally a piece of lace (which I can see could be used quite fashionably, in the case of the "cool girls")- hair, face, neck still visible. I don't see how that will keep the boys away ;)
  • @SP29 , here's an article I found that explains it well. https://churchpop.com/2014/12/08/10-reasons-women-wearing-veils-church/

    I personally don't wear a veil to Mass, but I know quite a few women in their 20s & 30s who do.
  • Viczaesar said:
    LD1970 said:
    mrsdowster, Kneeling during prayer is forbidden in Judaism.  Don't expect it from us or you'll be disappointed.  You'd also be wrong to take it as disrespect.

    I used my husband as an example of someone who has been to events in synagogues with me.  (NOT "temple," as that's offensive to religious Jews - since I know you're all looking to refrain from offending - because it trivializes The Temple in Jerusalem, which was destroyed.  I was raised and taught to say only shul or synagogue, never temple.)

    Over the years, I have belonged to both conservative and orthodox synagogues.  Events we've attended have been in conservative and reform synagogues.  There is NOTHING rude about saying "No, thank you," and as stated by the correct people above, covering one's head in a reform and most conservative synagogues is a CUSTOM, not a RULE.  I never said my husband got huffy, defensive, rude, or stormed out.  I said that kippahs have been OFFERED to, not FOISTED upon him, either by being in a basket at the entrance or by someone handing them out.  He's either simply not taken one from the basket or politely said, "No, thank you" to the person offering.  There was no confrontation or issue.  The basket wasn't struck by lightning (and neither was my husband), and the human said, "OK," and moved on to the next guest.  Done and done.

    It should be noted that as a married woman, I'm supposed to, under Jewish law, keep my head covered *at all times*.  Not just in synagogue, but definitely in synagogue.  I don't, and I don't cover my head for events in synagogue either.  Interestingly, no one's ever approached me trying to offer me one of those lace bits they hand out, or looked at me strangely for not covering my head.  I didn't even realize the omission until just now.  At any rate, these are my stomping grounds, my "space," if you will, and I'm telling you myself it's not a rule unless you're in an orthodox shul, and it's not rude.

    Now, were we invited to an orthodox shul for an event, I'd warn H about the need to wear a kippah and have to make a choice on whether I would go and cover my head as well.  I wouldn't expect to go to an orthodox event and not cover.
    -----------------------------------------------------
    SITB

    @LD1970  Thanks for clarifying.

    I really don't care if I offended anyone or not or if I'm wrong. Maybe my response was a little too long but basically I just wanted to let the OP know that, as other PP's have stated the "when in Rome" attitude...just take the yarmulke when offered in the synagogue.
    "I really don't care if I'm wrong" is such an interesting viewpoint.
    oh Boy, let the nit-picking begin. I guess that is what i get for typing a long response to the OP.

    As for my "I really don't care" bit, this is in response to LD's bolded quote above.  I'm not trying to be politically correct here...but if you noticed, LD clarified and I corrected.

    have a great weekend.
    Why not?  'I don't care if I offended anyone and I don't care if I'm wrong' is a shitty and bizarre attitude to have. 
    Especially because she is wrong. If she had read the previous 3 pages, she would have seen multiple posts (including mine) that stated why they don't kneel. And my grandmother and great grandmother who are/were practicing Catholics didn't kneel either because physically they could not! 
    I think most if not all people agreed it was respectful to sit and stand with everyone else.

    I asked my husband (who is a reform Jew). He said it is respectful to wear a yamulke in synagogue, but at a Jewish wedding not in a synagogue he said it didn't matter if non Jews wore it or not.  The op said this wedding is not in a synagogue, so if her husband really doesn't want to wear one, than don't.


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  • SP29 said:

    @Mobkaz Just curious, why the head covering?

    I read in someone's previous post they disagree with head covering because it's oppressive to women. So I envisioned a large head covering, covering all the hair, and likely the neck. But the head covering in Mobkaz's post is literally a piece of lace (which I can see could be used quite fashionably, in the case of the "cool girls")- hair, face, neck still visible. I don't see how that will keep the boys away ;)

    It's not about the boys, its covering your head before god.
    You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough. ~Mae West
  • LD1970 said:

    SP29 said:

    @Mobkaz Just curious, why the head covering?

    I read in someone's previous post they disagree with head covering because it's oppressive to women. So I envisioned a large head covering, covering all the hair, and likely the neck. But the head covering in Mobkaz's post is literally a piece of lace (which I can see could be used quite fashionably, in the case of the "cool girls")- hair, face, neck still visible. I don't see how that will keep the boys away ;)

    It's not about the boys, its covering your head before god.
    No, it *is* about the boys. Women are supposed to cover their heads to show their submission to their husbands and God:

    "But I want you to understand that the head of every man (that is Christian men and women) is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head" (1 Cor. 1:3-6)."

    So it's not dishonorable to God for men to have uncovered heads, in fact if they cover their heads it's no bueno, but women have to cover theirs to show submission and through submission honor to God.

    If my hair is so dishonorable to God you'd think He would have made me naturally bald. . .


    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


  • LD1970 said:

    SP29 said:

    @Mobkaz Just curious, why the head covering?

    I read in someone's previous post they disagree with head covering because it's oppressive to women. So I envisioned a large head covering, covering all the hair, and likely the neck. But the head covering in Mobkaz's post is literally a piece of lace (which I can see could be used quite fashionably, in the case of the "cool girls")- hair, face, neck still visible. I don't see how that will keep the boys away ;)

    It's not about the boys, its covering your head before god.

    Oh I didn't realize that men wear veils too.
  • SP29 said:
    @Mobkaz Just curious, why the head covering?

    I read in someone's previous post they disagree with head covering because it's oppressive to women. So I envisioned a large head covering, covering all the hair, and likely the neck. But the head covering in Mobkaz's post is literally a piece of lace (which I can see could be used quite fashionably, in the case of the "cool girls")- hair, face, neck still visible. I don't see how that will keep the boys away ;)
    @SP29, we did not receive any particular background knowledge regarding head coverings.  My first recollection was that girls wore beanies because they were part of the uniform.  My second memory was that girls covered their heads to show respect to God and pay homage to Mother Mary. Never was there any correlation made between head coverings and boys. 

    The length of our skirt, however, was a different story.  My elementary uniform was a red tartan plaid, pleated skirt.  The cool girls were skilled in rolling up the waistband of their skirts to shorten it without disturbing the pleats.  Uneven or twisted pleats was a dead giveaway.  On the walk home, you simply unrolled the waistband prior to being caught by mom.
  • LD1970 said:

    SP29 said:

    @Mobkaz Just curious, why the head covering?

    I read in someone's previous post they disagree with head covering because it's oppressive to women. So I envisioned a large head covering, covering all the hair, and likely the neck. But the head covering in Mobkaz's post is literally a piece of lace (which I can see could be used quite fashionably, in the case of the "cool girls")- hair, face, neck still visible. I don't see how that will keep the boys away ;)

    It's not about the boys, its covering your head before god.
    No, it *is* about the boys. Women are supposed to cover their heads to show their submission to their husbands and God:

    "But I want you to understand that the head of every man (that is Christian men and women) is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head" (1 Cor. 1:3-6)."

    So it's not dishonorable to God for men to have uncovered heads, in fact if they cover their heads it's no bueno, but women have to cover theirs to show submission and through submission honor to God.

    If my hair is so dishonorable to God you'd think He would have made me naturally bald. . .

    It's not about your hair, nor is it about the boys. It's about the fact that we are the bride of Christ, and that women do it to be more like Mary. Of the women I know who veil, none of them mention about men.

    Here's a good explanation: http://www.catholicgentleman.net/2014/10/wife-wearing-men-veils-mystery-femininity/
  • LD1970 said:

    SP29 said:

    @Mobkaz Just curious, why the head covering?

    I read in someone's previous post they disagree with head covering because it's oppressive to women. So I envisioned a large head covering, covering all the hair, and likely the neck. But the head covering in Mobkaz's post is literally a piece of lace (which I can see could be used quite fashionably, in the case of the "cool girls")- hair, face, neck still visible. I don't see how that will keep the boys away ;)

    It's not about the boys, its covering your head before god.
    No, it *is* about the boys. Women are supposed to cover their heads to show their submission to their husbands and God:

    "But I want you to understand that the head of every man (that is Christian men and women) is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head" (1 Cor. 1:3-6)."

    So it's not dishonorable to God for men to have uncovered heads, in fact if they cover their heads it's no bueno, but women have to cover theirs to show submission and through submission honor to God.

    If my hair is so dishonorable to God you'd think He would have made me naturally bald. . .

    It's not about your hair, nor is it about the boys. It's about the fact that we are the bride of Christ, and that women do it to be more like Mary. Of the women I know who veil, none of them mention about men.

    Here's a good explanation: http://www.catholicgentleman.net/2014/10/wife-wearing-men-veils-mystery-femininity/

    Unless men are also eligible to be brides of Christ, yes, they are mentioning at least one particularly important one!
  • LD1970 said:

    SP29 said:

    @Mobkaz Just curious, why the head covering?

    I read in someone's previous post they disagree with head covering because it's oppressive to women. So I envisioned a large head covering, covering all the hair, and likely the neck. But the head covering in Mobkaz's post is literally a piece of lace (which I can see could be used quite fashionably, in the case of the "cool girls")- hair, face, neck still visible. I don't see how that will keep the boys away ;)

    It's not about the boys, its covering your head before god.
    No, it *is* about the boys. Women are supposed to cover their heads to show their submission to their husbands and God:

    "But I want you to understand that the head of every man (that is Christian men and women) is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head" (1 Cor. 1:3-6)."

    So it's not dishonorable to God for men to have uncovered heads, in fact if they cover their heads it's no bueno, but women have to cover theirs to show submission and through submission honor to God.

    If my hair is so dishonorable to God you'd think He would have made me naturally bald. . .

    It's not about your hair, nor is it about the boys. It's about the fact that we are the bride of Christ, and that women do it to be more like Mary. Of the women I know who veil, none of them mention about men.

    Here's a good explanation: http://www.catholicgentleman.net/2014/10/wife-wearing-men-veils-mystery-femininity/

    Unless men are also eligible to be brides of Christ, yes, they are mentioning at least one particularly important one!
    ------

    Well, the whole church is considered to be the bride of Christ. There are many parallels between the relationship of Christ and the church and the marriage of man & woman.

    I've always been intrigued by the practice. I've read reflections where women say that it helps them focus at Mass.
  • LD1970 said:

    SP29 said:

    @Mobkaz Just curious, why the head covering?

    I read in someone's previous post they disagree with head covering because it's oppressive to women. So I envisioned a large head covering, covering all the hair, and likely the neck. But the head covering in Mobkaz's post is literally a piece of lace (which I can see could be used quite fashionably, in the case of the "cool girls")- hair, face, neck still visible. I don't see how that will keep the boys away ;)

    It's not about the boys, its covering your head before god.
    No, it *is* about the boys. Women are supposed to cover their heads to show their submission to their husbands and God:

    "But I want you to understand that the head of every man (that is Christian men and women) is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head" (1 Cor. 1:3-6)."

    So it's not dishonorable to God for men to have uncovered heads, in fact if they cover their heads it's no bueno, but women have to cover theirs to show submission and through submission honor to God.

    If my hair is so dishonorable to God you'd think He would have made me naturally bald. . .

    It's not about your hair, nor is it about the boys. It's about the fact that we are the bride of Christ, and that women do it to be more like Mary. Of the women I know who veil, none of them mention about men.

    Here's a good explanation: http://www.catholicgentleman.net/2014/10/wife-wearing-men-veils-mystery-femininity/

    Unless men are also eligible to be brides of Christ, yes, they are mentioning at least one particularly important one!
    ------

    Well, the whole church is considered to be the bride of Christ. There are many parallels between the relationship of Christ and the church and the marriage of man & woman.

    I've always been intrigued by the practice. I've read reflections where women say that it helps them focus at Mass.


    Which is exactly my point. If the whole church is the bride of Christ, shouldn't the men be wearing veils? If veils help women focus at Mass, why not men?
    It's a completely sexist practice and I'm glad it has fallen out of fashion.
  • LD1970 said:

    SP29 said:

    @Mobkaz Just curious, why the head covering?

    I read in someone's previous post they disagree with head covering because it's oppressive to women. So I envisioned a large head covering, covering all the hair, and likely the neck. But the head covering in Mobkaz's post is literally a piece of lace (which I can see could be used quite fashionably, in the case of the "cool girls")- hair, face, neck still visible. I don't see how that will keep the boys away ;)

    It's not about the boys, its covering your head before god.
    No, it *is* about the boys. Women are supposed to cover their heads to show their submission to their husbands and God:

    "But I want you to understand that the head of every man (that is Christian men and women) is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head" (1 Cor. 1:3-6)."

    So it's not dishonorable to God for men to have uncovered heads, in fact if they cover their heads it's no bueno, but women have to cover theirs to show submission and through submission honor to God.

    If my hair is so dishonorable to God you'd think He would have made me naturally bald. . .

    It's not about your hair, nor is it about the boys. It's about the fact that we are the bride of Christ, and that women do it to be more like Mary. Of the women I know who veil, none of them mention about men.

    Here's a good explanation: http://www.catholicgentleman.net/2014/10/wife-wearing-men-veils-mystery-femininity/

    Unless men are also eligible to be brides of Christ, yes, they are mentioning at least one particularly important one!
    ------

    Well, the whole church is considered to be the bride of Christ. There are many parallels between the relationship of Christ and the church and the marriage of man & woman.

    I've always been intrigued by the practice. I've read reflections where women say that it helps them focus at Mass.


    Which is exactly my point. If the whole church is the bride of Christ, shouldn't the men be wearing veils? If veils help women focus at Mass, why not men?
    It's a completely sexist practice and I'm glad it has fallen out of fashion.
    ------

    I read this regarding that point, and I thought it explained it well - "Men represent Christ, the bridegroom, which is why we have the male priesthood. Women represent the Church, the bride. All laymen take part in the feminine nature of the Church, but women symbolize the Church as the bride."

    As I said, I know several women who veil. Some are married, some not. It's a personal choice, and is not imposed. It's actually more common than people think.
  • Viczaesar said:
    LD1970 said:
    mrsdowster, Kneeling during prayer is forbidden in Judaism.  Don't expect it from us or you'll be disappointed.  You'd also be wrong to take it as disrespect.

    I used my husband as an example of someone who has been to events in synagogues with me.  (NOT "temple," as that's offensive to religious Jews - since I know you're all looking to refrain from offending - because it trivializes The Temple in Jerusalem, which was destroyed.  I was raised and taught to say only shul or synagogue, never temple.)

    Over the years, I have belonged to both conservative and orthodox synagogues.  Events we've attended have been in conservative and reform synagogues.  There is NOTHING rude about saying "No, thank you," and as stated by the correct people above, covering one's head in a reform and most conservative synagogues is a CUSTOM, not a RULE.  I never said my husband got huffy, defensive, rude, or stormed out.  I said that kippahs have been OFFERED to, not FOISTED upon him, either by being in a basket at the entrance or by someone handing them out.  He's either simply not taken one from the basket or politely said, "No, thank you" to the person offering.  There was no confrontation or issue.  The basket wasn't struck by lightning (and neither was my husband), and the human said, "OK," and moved on to the next guest.  Done and done.

    It should be noted that as a married woman, I'm supposed to, under Jewish law, keep my head covered *at all times*.  Not just in synagogue, but definitely in synagogue.  I don't, and I don't cover my head for events in synagogue either.  Interestingly, no one's ever approached me trying to offer me one of those lace bits they hand out, or looked at me strangely for not covering my head.  I didn't even realize the omission until just now.  At any rate, these are my stomping grounds, my "space," if you will, and I'm telling you myself it's not a rule unless you're in an orthodox shul, and it's not rude.

    Now, were we invited to an orthodox shul for an event, I'd warn H about the need to wear a kippah and have to make a choice on whether I would go and cover my head as well.  I wouldn't expect to go to an orthodox event and not cover.
    -----------------------------------------------------
    SITB

    @LD1970  Thanks for clarifying.

    I really don't care if I offended anyone or not or if I'm wrong. Maybe my response was a little too long but basically I just wanted to let the OP know that, as other PP's have stated the "when in Rome" attitude...just take the yarmulke when offered in the synagogue.
    "I really don't care if I'm wrong" is such an interesting viewpoint.
    oh Boy, let the nit-picking begin. I guess that is what i get for typing a long response to the OP.

    As for my "I really don't care" bit, this is in response to LD's bolded quote above.  I'm not trying to be politically correct here...but if you noticed, LD clarified and I corrected.

    have a great weekend.
    Why not?  'I don't care if I offended anyone and I don't care if I'm wrong' is a shitty and bizarre attitude to have. 
    Especially because she is wrong. If she had read the previous 3 pages, she would have seen multiple posts (including mine) that stated why they don't kneel. And my grandmother and great grandmother who are/were practicing Catholics didn't kneel either because physically they could not! 
    I think most if not all people agreed it was respectful to sit and stand with everyone else.

    I asked my husband (who is a reform Jew). He said it is respectful to wear a yamulke in synagogue, but at a Jewish wedding not in a synagogue he said it didn't matter if non Jews wore it or not.  The op said this wedding is not in a synagogue, so if her husband really doesn't want to wear one, than don't.


    Something the OP never said is if the sponsoring synagogue is Reform.

    If the sponsoring synagogue is Orthodox, then even if the ceremony isn't taking place in the building, all males, regardless of their religious affiliation, need to have their heads covered.  No exceptions.

    If it's Conservative, then congregations who are stricter about this are going to also require all males to cover their heads, regardless of their religious affiliation.

    Neither Orthodox nor stricter Conservative congregations are going to be impressed by what Reform rabbis have to say or don't about whether yarmulkes are necessary-or, for that matter, many other aspects of Judaism.

    So unless the ceremony is being sponsored by a Reform rabbi and congregation, don't assume that just because they don't require males to cover their heads that your husband can politely expect not to cover his.  It depends on the congregation's rules.
  • Jen4948 said:
    Viczaesar said:
    LD1970 said:
    mrsdowster, Kneeling during prayer is forbidden in Judaism.  Don't expect it from us or you'll be disappointed.  You'd also be wrong to take it as disrespect.

    I used my husband as an example of someone who has been to events in synagogues with me.  (NOT "temple," as that's offensive to religious Jews - since I know you're all looking to refrain from offending - because it trivializes The Temple in Jerusalem, which was destroyed.  I was raised and taught to say only shul or synagogue, never temple.)

    Over the years, I have belonged to both conservative and orthodox synagogues.  Events we've attended have been in conservative and reform synagogues.  There is NOTHING rude about saying "No, thank you," and as stated by the correct people above, covering one's head in a reform and most conservative synagogues is a CUSTOM, not a RULE.  I never said my husband got huffy, defensive, rude, or stormed out.  I said that kippahs have been OFFERED to, not FOISTED upon him, either by being in a basket at the entrance or by someone handing them out.  He's either simply not taken one from the basket or politely said, "No, thank you" to the person offering.  There was no confrontation or issue.  The basket wasn't struck by lightning (and neither was my husband), and the human said, "OK," and moved on to the next guest.  Done and done.

    It should be noted that as a married woman, I'm supposed to, under Jewish law, keep my head covered *at all times*.  Not just in synagogue, but definitely in synagogue.  I don't, and I don't cover my head for events in synagogue either.  Interestingly, no one's ever approached me trying to offer me one of those lace bits they hand out, or looked at me strangely for not covering my head.  I didn't even realize the omission until just now.  At any rate, these are my stomping grounds, my "space," if you will, and I'm telling you myself it's not a rule unless you're in an orthodox shul, and it's not rude.

    Now, were we invited to an orthodox shul for an event, I'd warn H about the need to wear a kippah and have to make a choice on whether I would go and cover my head as well.  I wouldn't expect to go to an orthodox event and not cover.
    -----------------------------------------------------
    SITB

    @LD1970  Thanks for clarifying.

    I really don't care if I offended anyone or not or if I'm wrong. Maybe my response was a little too long but basically I just wanted to let the OP know that, as other PP's have stated the "when in Rome" attitude...just take the yarmulke when offered in the synagogue.
    "I really don't care if I'm wrong" is such an interesting viewpoint.
    oh Boy, let the nit-picking begin. I guess that is what i get for typing a long response to the OP.

    As for my "I really don't care" bit, this is in response to LD's bolded quote above.  I'm not trying to be politically correct here...but if you noticed, LD clarified and I corrected.

    have a great weekend.
    Why not?  'I don't care if I offended anyone and I don't care if I'm wrong' is a shitty and bizarre attitude to have. 
    Especially because she is wrong. If she had read the previous 3 pages, she would have seen multiple posts (including mine) that stated why they don't kneel. And my grandmother and great grandmother who are/were practicing Catholics didn't kneel either because physically they could not! 
    I think most if not all people agreed it was respectful to sit and stand with everyone else.

    I asked my husband (who is a reform Jew). He said it is respectful to wear a yamulke in synagogue, but at a Jewish wedding not in a synagogue he said it didn't matter if non Jews wore it or not.  The op said this wedding is not in a synagogue, so if her husband really doesn't want to wear one, than don't.


    Something the OP never said is if the sponsoring synagogue is Reform.

    If the sponsoring synagogue is Orthodox, then even if the ceremony isn't taking place in the building, all males, regardless of their religious affiliation, need to have their heads covered.  No exceptions.

    If it's Conservative, then congregations who are stricter about this are going to also require all males to cover their heads, regardless of their religious affiliation.

    Neither Orthodox nor stricter Conservative congregations are going to be impressed by what Reform rabbis have to say or don't about whether yarmulkes are necessary-or, for that matter, many other aspects of Judaism.

    So unless the ceremony is being sponsored by a Reform rabbi and congregation, don't assume that just because they don't require males to cover their heads that your husband can politely expect not to cover his.  It depends on the congregation's rules.
    As some of us have been saying.



  • Viczaesar said:


    Jen4948 said:




    Viczaesar said:






    LD1970 said:

    mrsdowster, Kneeling during prayer is forbidden in Judaism.  Don't expect it from us or you'll be disappointed.  You'd also be wrong to take it as disrespect.

    I used my husband as an example of someone who has been to events in synagogues with me.  (NOT "temple," as that's offensive to religious Jews - since I know you're all looking to refrain from offending - because it trivializes The Temple in Jerusalem, which was destroyed.  I was raised and taught to say only shul or synagogue, never temple.)

    Over the years, I have belonged to both conservative and orthodox synagogues.  Events we've attended have been in conservative and reform synagogues.  There is NOTHING rude about saying "No, thank you," and as stated by the correct people above, covering one's head in a reform and most conservative synagogues is a CUSTOM, not a RULE.  I never said my husband got huffy, defensive, rude, or stormed out.  I said that kippahs have been OFFERED to, not FOISTED upon him, either by being in a basket at the entrance or by someone handing them out.  He's either simply not taken one from the basket or politely said, "No, thank you" to the person offering.  There was no confrontation or issue.  The basket wasn't struck by lightning (and neither was my husband), and the human said, "OK," and moved on to the next guest.  Done and done.

    It should be noted that as a married woman, I'm supposed to, under Jewish law, keep my head covered *at all times*.  Not just in synagogue, but definitely in synagogue.  I don't, and I don't cover my head for events in synagogue either.  Interestingly, no one's ever approached me trying to offer me one of those lace bits they hand out, or looked at me strangely for not covering my head.  I didn't even realize the omission until just now.  At any rate, these are my stomping grounds, my "space," if you will, and I'm telling you myself it's not a rule unless you're in an orthodox shul, and it's not rude.

    Now, were we invited to an orthodox shul for an event, I'd warn H about the need to wear a kippah and have to make a choice on whether I would go and cover my head as well.  I wouldn't expect to go to an orthodox event and not cover.
    -----------------------------------------------------
    SITB

    @LD1970  Thanks for clarifying.

    I really don't care if I offended anyone or not or if I'm wrong. Maybe my response was a little too long but basically I just wanted to let the OP know that, as other PP's have stated the "when in Rome" attitude...just take the yarmulke when offered in the synagogue.


    "I really don't care if I'm wrong" is such an interesting viewpoint.

    oh Boy, let the nit-picking begin. I guess that is what i get for typing a long response to the OP.

    As for my "I really don't care" bit, this is in response to LD's bolded quote above.  I'm not trying to be politically correct here...but if you noticed, LD clarified and I corrected.

    have a great weekend.

    Why not?  'I don't care if I offended anyone and I don't care if I'm wrong' is a shitty and bizarre attitude to have. 


    Especially because she is wrong. If she had read the previous 3 pages, she would have seen multiple posts (including mine) that stated why they don't kneel. And my grandmother and great grandmother who are/were practicing Catholics didn't kneel either because physically they could not! 
    I think most if not all people agreed it was respectful to sit and stand with everyone else.

    I asked my husband (who is a reform Jew). He said it is respectful to wear a yamulke in synagogue, but at a Jewish wedding not in a synagogue he said it didn't matter if non Jews wore it or not.  The op said this wedding is not in a synagogue, so if her husband really doesn't want to wear one, than don't.




    Something the OP never said is if the sponsoring synagogue is Reform.

    If the sponsoring synagogue is Orthodox, then even if the ceremony isn't taking place in the building, all males, regardless of their religious affiliation, need to have their heads covered.  No exceptions.

    If it's Conservative, then congregations who are stricter about this are going to also require all males to cover their heads, regardless of their religious affiliation.

    Neither Orthodox nor stricter Conservative congregations are going to be impressed by what Reform rabbis have to say or don't about whether yarmulkes are necessary-or, for that matter, many other aspects of Judaism.

    So unless the ceremony is being sponsored by a Reform rabbi and congregation, don't assume that just because they don't require males to cover their heads that your husband can politely expect not to cover his.  It depends on the congregation's rules.

    As some of us have been saying.


    So, OP, if they're going to bring yarmulkes around at the wedding you and your husband are invited to, that suggests to me that at this wedding Reform standards don't apply because they want all men to cover their heads. In which case your husband needs to wear a hat of his own, accept the yarmulke and wear it, or not attend. Saying "no thanks" or accepting a yarmulke and not wearing it are not polite options here.
  • Maybe just ask the bride if it's required? Then you can make an informed decisions minus so much speculation. If it's stressing you out, it's easily resolved!

    You know your comfort level. I attended a Catholic baptism of a relative recently, and I dutifully said all the right things at the right times, and shook hands etc... but I left with a nasty taste in my mouth.

    So for me, personally, I will not attend any more Catholic baptism services. We have one coming up, which we have respectfully declined, and will instead celebrate with the family at their "after party". This caused no offence whatsoever. It's possible to stand by your own principles while still maintaining positive relationships and celebrating with loved ones!
  • Maybe just ask the bride if it's required? Then you can make an informed decisions minus so much speculation. If it's stressing you out, it's easily resolved!

    You know your comfort level. I attended a Catholic baptism of a relative recently, and I dutifully said all the right things at the right times, and shook hands etc... but I left with a nasty taste in my mouth.

    So for me, personally, I will not attend any more Catholic baptism services. We have one coming up, which we have respectfully declined, and will instead celebrate with the family at their "after party". This caused no offence whatsoever. It's possible to stand by your own principles while still maintaining positive relationships and celebrating with loved ones!

    I'm curious. ...we've was so bad about a baptism?
  • Maybe just ask the bride if it's required? Then you can make an informed decisions minus so much speculation. If it's stressing you out, it's easily resolved!

    You know your comfort level. I attended a Catholic baptism of a relative recently, and I dutifully said all the right things at the right times, and shook hands etc... but I left with a nasty taste in my mouth.

    So for me, personally, I will not attend any more Catholic baptism services. We have one coming up, which we have respectfully declined, and will instead celebrate with the family at their "after party". This caused no offence whatsoever. It's possible to stand by your own principles while still maintaining positive relationships and celebrating with loved ones!

    I wouldn't ask the bride. If there's an insert in the invitation mentioning it, then that indicates that it's expected.
  • I was talking solely about Judaism. We don't have Christ. This passage doesn't apply.
    You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough. ~Mae West
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