Does this make my wedding a PPD?

TrixieJess

holyguacamole79 said:

TrixieJess said:

JustcallmeA said:

Thank you for being supportive and kind.  Yes, we know that if we do this we won't be able to receive Eucharist. Maybe I sound too flippant in my previous posts.  That's not my intention.

If we decide to nix the civil outdoor ceremony and only have a church wedding we need to arrive at a place where we'll be okay with being cut off from important family members.  We're not ready to make a decision on what to do. As I mentioned our current parish is all over the place with information.  I also don't want to be rude to our guests attending by having two ceremonies, which is why I ended up here - to make sure the two ceremony thing wasn't a cool thing to do.

It also means that any children that you have wouldn't be able to be baptised. This is something that you would have to think about. Do you want any future children raised Catholic? This is usually an important reasoning for having a Catholic ceremony. 

This actually isn't true.  The parents would likely be strongly encouraged to have their marriage convalidated, but the church would not deny the child grace because of the parents marriage status.

Then this is something that has changed in the last 30 years. My parents had to have their marriage covalidated for my brother and I to be baptised. 

holyguacamole79

TrixieJess said:

holyguacamole79 said:

TrixieJess said:

JustcallmeA said:

Thank you for being supportive and kind.  Yes, we know that if we do this we won't be able to receive Eucharist. Maybe I sound too flippant in my previous posts.  That's not my intention.

If we decide to nix the civil outdoor ceremony and only have a church wedding we need to arrive at a place where we'll be okay with being cut off from important family members.  We're not ready to make a decision on what to do. As I mentioned our current parish is all over the place with information.  I also don't want to be rude to our guests attending by having two ceremonies, which is why I ended up here - to make sure the two ceremony thing wasn't a cool thing to do.

It also means that any children that you have wouldn't be able to be baptised. This is something that you would have to think about. Do you want any future children raised Catholic? This is usually an important reasoning for having a Catholic ceremony. 

This actually isn't true.  The parents would likely be strongly encouraged to have their marriage convalidated

Then this is something that has changed in the last 30 years. My parents had to have their marriage covalidated for my brother and I to be baptised. 

Wow, that's too bad.   I don't have first hand experience, but that's what a priest once told me when I asked if a child of a same sex couple could be baptised. 

banana468

holyguacamole79 said:

TrixieJess said:

holyguacamole79 said:

TrixieJess said:

JustcallmeA said:

Thank you for being supportive and kind.  Yes, we know that if we do this we won't be able to receive Eucharist. Maybe I sound too flippant in my previous posts.  That's not my intention.

If we decide to nix the civil outdoor ceremony and only have a church wedding we need to arrive at a place where we'll be okay with being cut off from important family members.  We're not ready to make a decision on what to do. As I mentioned our current parish is all over the place with information.  I also don't want to be rude to our guests attending by having two ceremonies, which is why I ended up here - to make sure the two ceremony thing wasn't a cool thing to do.

It also means that any children that you have wouldn't be able to be baptised. This is something that you would have to think about. Do you want any future children raised Catholic? This is usually an important reasoning for having a Catholic ceremony. 

This actually isn't true.  The parents would likely be strongly encouraged to have their marriage convalidated

Then this is something that has changed in the last 30 years. My parents had to have their marriage covalidated for my brother and I to be baptised. 

Wow, that's too bad.   I don't have first hand experience, but that's what a priest once told me when I asked if a child of a same sex couple could be baptised. 

I think there are priests out there (especially those years ago) who spread misinformation and/or created practices that were not actual doctrine.   This is one of those situations.    It was a common practice years ago but it wasn't actually correct.

My aunt loves to say that the Catholic Church teaches women that they can't turn down their husband if he has an erection.   It's not true but she claims she heard it from a priest so she likes to reference it as bogus doctrine and one of the reasons she's a lapsed Catholic. 

scrunchythief

OP, I'm so sorry you're going through this.  This does not sound like the typical reasons for trying to have 2 ceremonies, which may be why your church was trying to work with you.  

I might try calling your diocese office.  There are (rare) cases where Catholics can receive a dispensation from the bishop from the requirement to be married in a church.  It might be worth it to see if your situation qualifies. 

Helenahhandbasket

holyguacamole79 said:

TrixieJess said:

JustcallmeA said:

Thank you for being supportive and kind.  Yes, we know that if we do this we won't be able to receive Eucharist. Maybe I sound too flippant in my previous posts.  That's not my intention.

If we decide to nix the civil outdoor ceremony and only have a church wedding we need to arrive at a place where we'll be okay with being cut off from important family members.  We're not ready to make a decision on what to do. As I mentioned our current parish is all over the place with information.  I also don't want to be rude to our guests attending by having two ceremonies, which is why I ended up here - to make sure the two ceremony thing wasn't a cool thing to do.

It also means that any children that you have wouldn't be able to be baptised. This is something that you would have to think about. Do you want any future children raised Catholic? This is usually an important reasoning for having a Catholic ceremony. 

This actually isn't true.  The parents would likely be strongly encouraged to have their marriage convalidated, but the church would not deny the child grace because of the parents marriage status.

I ususally just lurk, but this is what I was going to say.

I was married in a hotel chapel in Vegas and my child is a baptized Catholic.

I suppose different parishes may have different rules.

lembaslover

I think PPs have given you a lot of great advice and I hope you come up with a solution! I am really sorry you have people who would make you consider giving up something so important. 

Personally I'm an atheist (mostly due to the hypocrisy I saw in my mother's involvement with Christianity as well as some other teachings I disagree with) but if I was attending a wedding of a friend or family member in a church I'd have absolutely no problems doing so since I respect it's their choice and personal to them. To add on that if I know someone is very religious I'd be kind of surprised if I found out they were having a non-religious ceremony.

My mother is all about keeping the peace and making things work for everyone and who knows maybe I'll change my mind but my current attitude is if someone doesn't respect me and my beliefs I have no place for that person in my life. Life is too short to spend trying to make everyone happy. 

I truly hope you find a way to have the ceremony that is important to you and your FI!

[Deleted User]

Thank you everyone for responding and being so kind.  I was worried about posting to the etiquette board but you've been really nice.  We have a small deposit on the location for the civil ceremony, one that we are not worried about losing if we decide to walk away from the idea and have a ceremony in the church after all.  We will not have two ceremonies.  Maybe I'll contact the parish I attended growing up and get advice from the priest there.  I also feel more comfortable explaining the situation to them anyway.

Again it wasn't my intention to sound flippant about sacraments and practices; I'm a cradle Catholic,  I like to think that I've been a pretty good Catholic throughout my life, and this is something that we have been talking about for a couple months now.  And have met with our current priest about, so we are aware of ramifications.  That said, I would never want to make someone else uncomfortable or triggered, and I respect everyone's right to their feelings and opinions. While we were shocked and upset to hear family members opinions, we also understand where they are coming from, and love them.  Several months ago a grand jury found that the diocese, where we currently live, has covered up hundreds of cases of child abuse.  That has played a role in this, which is why we put the deposit on the outdoor space.  Perhaps I should have been more forthcoming in my OP, I was just looking to get the confirmation that two ceremonies was bad.

It's also not our intention to take advantage of anyone by having a PPD.  I really appreciated all of the responses on this thread.  Honestly, I think it's time for us to take a small break from thinking about wedding things because it's been really emotionally draining.  

delujm0

banana468 said:

JustcallmeA said:

Fair enough, the two ceremony thing didn't sit right with me.  Our parish has been all over the place with information which has been frustrating    

We'll drop the church part and have the one legal ceremony outside.  We are moving shortly have the wedding, once settled we can look into convalidation and if that's something that would be an option for us.

Just keep in mind that if you are serious about your faith then by getting married outside you're no longer a Catholic in good standing.   It makes you ineligible to receive any Sacarements including the Eucharist and also means that you can't serve as a Godparent or a sponsor for Confirmation / RCIA.   

This.  My parents are both Catholic but were big hippies and wanted to get married on the beach in the 70's.  My mom never took communion again. 

 

My dad, however, found this to work to his advantage when he remarried 30 years later, because he didn't need to get an annulment first, since the church never recognized his first wedding.  He got married in the church the second time around.

banana468

The planning can really be taxing and stressful especially when you're talking about fundamental aspects.

As someone who came from a parish and diocese that was hit with abuse and controversy I hope you're able to find peace with your decision. 

holyguacamole79

Hugs to you and your FI, @JustcallmeA .  I had a feeling that the opposition has something to do with abuse.  You sound like an awesome person and you faith sounds strong.  I'd find a way to have a heart to heart with these family members and ask them to reconsider.  As I said before, attending your wedding would be supporting you and would not be a sign of support for the Church.   I'll keep you in my prayers. 

CMGragain

My daughter was married in a United Methodist Church, and most of her guests were either atheist or Wiccan, including bridesmaids.  A number of her young guests had never attended a church wedding before.  Several of them expressed surprise at how beautiful the ceremony was.  I think a few expected to be offended, but none were.

I am sorry that some of your guests have such negative attitudes towards the Catholic Christian faith, but that is not your problem - it is theirs.  If they don't care enough about you to attend a Catholic wedding service, perhaps they don't belong at your wedding, anyway.

I understand the horror of abuse, but blaming the entire Church for it is not fair.  I had a friend in college who was raped by a dorm advisor.  Did she blame the University?  No.  She blamed the man.

JediElizabeth

CMGragain said:

My daughter was married in a United Methodist Church, and most of her guests were either atheist or Wiccan, including bridesmaids.  A number of her young guests had never attended a church wedding before.  Several of them expressed surprise at how beautiful the ceremony was.  I think a few expected to be offended, but none were.

I am sorry that some of your guests have such negative attitudes towards the Catholic Christian faith, but that is not your problem - it is theirs.  If they don't care enough about you to attend a Catholic wedding service, perhaps they don't belong at your wedding, anyway.

I understand the horror of abuse, but blaming the entire Church for it is not fair.  I had a friend in college who was raped by a dorm advisor.  Did she blame the University?  No.  She blamed the man.

Please don't oversimplify this. It's true that some people within the Church did bad things, and some were completely innocent. However, we know that Church authorities swept wrongdoings under the rug and denied many victims justice, sometimes sending offending priests to other parishes where they could offend again. 

Personally, as an ex-Catholic, I don't believe that all members of the Church, or even all leaders, should be blamed. But I also don't think it's ok to trivialize or restrict the pain of the victims, or pretend that just the sexual offenders were in the wrong. 

flantastic

JediElizabeth said:

CMGragain said:

My daughter was married in a United Methodist Church, and most of her guests were either atheist or Wiccan, including bridesmaids.  A number of her young guests had never attended a church wedding before.  Several of them expressed surprise at how beautiful the ceremony was.  I think a few expected to be offended, but none were.

I am sorry that some of your guests have such negative attitudes towards the Catholic Christian faith, but that is not your problem - it is theirs.  If they don't care enough about you to attend a Catholic wedding service, perhaps they don't belong at your wedding, anyway.

I understand the horror of abuse, but blaming the entire Church for it is not fair.  I had a friend in college who was raped by a dorm advisor.  Did she blame the University?  No.  She blamed the man.

Please don't oversimplify this. It's true that some people within the Church did bad things, and some were completely innocent. However, we know that Church authorities swept wrongdoings under the rug and denied many victims justice, sometimes sending offending priests to other parishes where they could offend again. 

Personally, as an ex-Catholic, I don't believe that all members of the Church, or even all leaders, should be blamed. But I also don't think it's ok to trivialize or restrict the pain of the victims, or pretend that just the sexual offenders were in the wrong. 

I very much agree with this, as a current Catholic. There was definitely some institutional failure, in some dioceses more than others.

kimmiinthemitten

JediElizabeth said:

CMGragain said:

My daughter was married in a United Methodist Church, and most of her guests were either atheist or Wiccan, including bridesmaids.  A number of her young guests had never attended a church wedding before.  Several of them expressed surprise at how beautiful the ceremony was.  I think a few expected to be offended, but none were.

I am sorry that some of your guests have such negative attitudes towards the Catholic Christian faith, but that is not your problem - it is theirs.  If they don't care enough about you to attend a Catholic wedding service, perhaps they don't belong at your wedding, anyway.

I understand the horror of abuse, but blaming the entire Church for it is not fair.  I had a friend in college who was raped by a dorm advisor.  Did she blame the University?  No.  She blamed the man.

Please don't oversimplify this. It's true that some people within the Church did bad things, and some were completely innocent. However, we know that Church authorities swept wrongdoings under the rug and denied many victims justice, sometimes sending offending priests to other parishes where they could offend again. 

Personally, as an ex-Catholic, I don't believe that all members of the Church, or even all leaders, should be blamed. But I also don't think it's ok to trivialize or restrict the pain of the victims, or pretend that just the sexual offenders were in the wrong. 

Also, OP said she didn't want to "trigger" any of her guests which made me wonder if any of her guests could have been victims themselves.

I'm not Catholic so I have no good advice for you but to trust your gut and do what feels right for you.  It sounds like your church is understanding.

CMGragain

That was not my intention.  I am very much in sympathy with victims of abuse.  I have dealt with it in my own family.  (Mom married a Catholic, remember?)
I just think that blaming the entire Catholic Church is misplacing anger and hurt.
Right now Pope Francis is encouraging change regarding marriage restrictions.   My own church, the United Methodist Church, is currently having its General Conference and debating major changes in our practices, too.  I personally think as long as a faith is open to change, it is a living faith that is relevant to our time.
My heart goes out to all victims of abuse, within church or not.

holyguacamole79

CMGragain said:

That was not my intention.  I am very much in sympathy with victims of abuse.  I have dealt with it in my own family.  (Mom married a Catholic, remember?)
I just think that blaming the entire Catholic Church is misplacing anger and hurt.
Right now Pope Francis is encouraging change regarding marriage restrictions.   My own church, the United Methodist Church, is currently having its General Conference and debating major changes in our practices, too.  I personally think as long as a faith is open to change, it is a living faith that is relevant to our time.
My heart goes out to all victims of abuse, within church or not.

Not really.   Many of those changes are being proposed by other bishops.   I've been meaning to read his latest document, but my understanding is that noting has changed. 

drunkenwitch

I don't have any advice to offer but I wanted to say that I hope you stick around.

lnixon8

Thanks for clarifying OP. That really is a much stickier situation than what I assumed. When you said "hate church" I was envisioning teens/young adults groaning about being bored when their parents drag them to Sunday mass.

banana468

JediElizabeth said:

CMGragain said:

My daughter was married in a United Methodist Church, and most of her guests were either atheist or Wiccan, including bridesmaids.  A number of her young guests had never attended a church wedding before.  Several of them expressed surprise at how beautiful the ceremony was.  I think a few expected to be offended, but none were.

I am sorry that some of your guests have such negative attitudes towards the Catholic Christian faith, but that is not your problem - it is theirs.  If they don't care enough about you to attend a Catholic wedding service, perhaps they don't belong at your wedding, anyway.

I understand the horror of abuse, but blaming the entire Church for it is not fair.  I had a friend in college who was raped by a dorm advisor.  Did she blame the University?  No.  She blamed the man.

Please don't oversimplify this. It's true that some people within the Church did bad things, and some were completely innocent. However, we know that Church authorities swept wrongdoings under the rug and denied many victims justice, sometimes sending offending priests to other parishes where they could offend again. 

Personally, as an ex-Catholic, I don't believe that all members of the Church, or even all leaders, should be blamed. But I also don't think it's ok to trivialize or restrict the pain of the victims, or pretend that just the sexual offenders were in the wrong. 

Similarly, there are schools (ahem Penn State) that DID cover up years of abuse by people in authority.  And I absolutely DO blame more than just the abuser when there are grown adults aware of the behavior who don't do a damn thing to protect the victims or to prevent the crimes from occurring.

I'm a practicing Catholic but I do think that the Church has a lot to apologize for.   That doesn't mean that I disagree with the teachings but I don't condone the behavior of those who abused or didn't do anything to stop it. 

[Deleted User]

Our parish was one of those listed in the grand jury report.  And our parish is more on the old school side. The response when this all came out a few months ago, disappointingly, was very much circle the wagons.  My FI and I aren't originally from this area, so none of our family members were directly affected by this particular incident.  We have strong feelings about institutional cover-up and how it is addressed after the fact (er, we are also penn state alumni).  

We heard from our priest and convalidation, at this parish at least. will not be an option because we know better.  Which is fair, Catholic church, we would have to play by their rules.  And this ceremony before that was suggested would in fact be legal.  

At this point we are leaning toward just the outdoor ceremony.  It's a big deal to not be in good standing anymore, but after a lot of thinking, we just don't think this is the parish were we would like to start our family.  And we would like for our marriage to start out on a positive note, with a celebration that is welcoming for everyone.  Sure we could jump to another parish in the diocese, but we will probably end up with the same result.  And we just kind of feel beaten down by this whole process.  We will have to spend some time thinking about what this means for us in terms of our faith.  Maybe in the future we will be able regain good standing? Maybe not.  If we're able to have children we will strongly consider our options.  A number of people in our family are not in good standing for a number of reasons, and of our family members who are in good standing, all have been extremely supportive which has been comforting. 

[Deleted User]

I'm not sure if I responded yesterday to the question about my FI's thoughts.  When the idea of a private religious ceremony in addition to the public civil one was introduced, he thought that it was a great solution.  He's not on the up and up in terms of wedding etiquette, but he does mean well.  His thought process was that this was something we were doing privately, within 24 hours of the public shebang, for our personal religious beliefs and to make things catholic-okay for when we move on from the area. And we are making sure that the outdoor ceremony and brunch reception are very well hosted.  He knows now that is not good etiquette to have two ceremonies and therefore not an option for us after all.   Edited to add: most of our family and friends have been supportive of all options, I was looking for the unbiased opinion. 

bleve0821

Honestly, in a case like this, as a guest I would be very understanding of your choice to hold a private ceremony the day before and have a second ceremony the next day.  This is a situation which is obviously very sensitive, and while I am not religious, I understand that faith can be very important to others, and it would pain me to know that a couple gave up their standing with their church to have a harmonious ceremony.

I am aware that I am very much in the minority here about PPDs, but this is a decision that will affect you and your FH, and any future additions to your family, for the duration.  Decisions with this kind of lasting impact are very, very hard to make.

I really hope that, whatever happens, you find peace with your decision.

MrsMack10612

Being more aware of the circumstances surrounding the no-church issue, I retract some of the harshness of my post yesterday.  I still don't agree with their stance, but can understand it a bit more.

I have to be inclined to agree with PP that I would be more understanding of the two ceremonies in this instance. 

aurianna

Yeah... I'm usually very anti-PPD but I'm switching my vote. If you wanted to have a private Catholic ceremony the day before, as long as it isn't a secret and your guests know about it, as a guest I'd be cool with it (though I'm Catholic and would be bummed if I missed your actual ceremony but I'd deal).

I think it's important to treat your guests well... but I think completely giving up two Sacraments (marriage and Eucharist), potentially forever, for the sake of not having a PPD is too much to ask of a couple.

If it were me, I would move the ceremony to a different parish and hope that my guests could deal with it at that point since it wasn't the offending parish. Alternatively I would just have a private ceremony at the church with any non-objecting immediate family and just invite the rest of the guests to the reception, skipping the second ceremony all together.
But if those aren't good options... I'd break my PPD rule and say stay in good with the church (assuming it is important to you), and then just be open about the outdoor ceremony's being ceremonial only and not legally binding (invitations I'd phrase them as 'celebration of the recent marriage of' vs making it look like they are invited to the actual wedding).

I'm sorry you're in this position. It's a very sticky thing.

Tyvm

I think it's important to treat your guests well... but I think completely giving up two Sacraments (marriage and Eucharist), potentially forever, for the sake of not having a PPD is too much to ask of a couple. 

@aurianna Yupppppppppp.

OP. Basically. Do what you think is best. Your situation sucks. I'm sorry.

holyguacamole79

I agree with the others.   It sounds like you're being transparent with all involved, so I would not side-eye the outdoor ceremony.   I hope my words weren't too blunt yesterday.  There are often posters who want both ceremonies for more superficial reasons. 

[Deleted User]

holyguacamole79 said:

I agree with the others.   It sounds like you're being transparent with all involved, so I would not side-eye the outdoor ceremony.   I hope my words weren't too blunt yesterday.  There are often posters who want both ceremonies for more superficial reasons. 

Not at all, you have been very nice!  I understand where everyone is coming from on PPDs. Edited to add: we've been very upfront with our friends and family on everything.  If , big if, we were to move forward with the two ceremonies, we would be very honest with everyone.

MandTFebruary62011

CMGragain said:

That was not my intention.  I am very much in sympathy with victims of abuse.  I have dealt with it in my own family.  (Mom married a Catholic, remember?)
I just think that blaming the entire Catholic Church is misplacing anger and hurt.
Right now Pope Francis is encouraging change regarding marriage restrictions.   My own church, the United Methodist Church, is currently having its General Conference and debating major changes in our practices, too.  I personally think as long as a faith is open to change, it is a living faith that is relevant to our time.
My heart goes out to all victims of abuse, within church or not.

 I haven't read all the way to the end but I do feel the need to say that it may not even be her family member "blaming" the entire church.  I feel that oversimplifies the reaction this person may have and makes them appear petty as opposed to having a very real trauma response.  If this person was a victim of abuse, recently or has not dealt with it fully, they can be triggered in a very real way by the symbols, environment, smells etc.  If abuse was significant, this can have a significant impact on that person's ability to function on the day and any recovery they have been working toward.  

Traumatic experiences affect everyone different and do affect us physically as well as emotionally.  OP may be acting in a very thoughtful way regarding how her family member feels they would negatively respond to the environment of a Catholic service.

MandTFebruary62011

AtomicBlonde said:

Honestly, in a case like this, as a guest I would be very understanding of your choice to hold a private ceremony the day before and have a second ceremony the next day.  This is a situation which is obviously very sensitive, and while I am not religious, I understand that faith can be very important to others, and it would pain me to know that a couple gave up their standing with their church to have a harmonious ceremony.

I am aware that I am very much in the minority here about PPDs, but this is a decision that will affect you and your FH, and any future additions to your family, for the duration.  Decisions with this kind of lasting impact are very, very hard to make.

I really hope that, whatever happens, you find peace with your decision.

I agree.  It's up to you but this feels like a very appropriate unique situation.

[Deleted User]

Put me in the camp of not caring, especially if you are open about it.

My cousin lost his job while he was engaged.  Plans were underway, contracts signed, people had made accommodations, etc.  They had a quick wedding with just immediate family, and then the "PPD" when it was originally scheduled.  The alternative was either losing the money on the deposits, and people cancelling their travel plans, or my cousin leaving the country because he was on an employment visa.  Not ideal.

There were no secrets.  Pictures of their small civil ceremony had been circulating.  The minister referenced how they were already married and were retaking their vows now in front of everyone.  If you are honest and host your guests properly, you may find that many people are understanding.

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