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How do you guys feel about that gorilla thing?

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Re: How do you guys feel about that gorilla thing?

  • Yeah, I get so sick of there always having to be someone to blame for everything. I agree, sometimes shit just happens no matter what you do. This is sad, but no way as sad as it would have been if the child had been killed or seriously harmed. To be honest that's the bottom line for me. It's not like the mother left her kids in a hotel room alone while she went out for tapas with her friends. Kids are unpredictable, they just are. I looked after my 2yo nephew the other week and man is he fast. And sneaky as fuck too  :D

    But I guess mum's are pilloried in some way no matter what they do. 
                 
    OurWildKingdomSherbie25
  • PrettyGirlLostPrettyGirlLost A Land Filled with Unicorns and Cat Hair member
    5000 Comments Fifth Anniversary 500 Love Its First Answer
    edited June 2016
    scribe95 said:
    I'm bothered by the instant and unrelenting attack on the parents. I wasn't there but no parent is infallible. Kids are quick and looking away for 30 seconds or a minute can result in tragedy. Everyone saying this would never happen with their child I think are naive. 

    This is a graphic of the enclosure. Doesn't look that hard to me. Climb one thing, crawl under bushes and boom, he was in the moat.

    636002342761651826-GorillaOnlinejpg

    Once in there the zoo had no choice. The gorilla initially was calm but became agitated and was dragging the child like a rag doll through the water. He could have easily drowned or been unconscious from his head hitting the concrete. 
    I think this is a great post, Scribe.

    I think this incident was an accident that lead to a tragic consequence, however the fact that it was an accident does not absolve the parents of responsibility. 

    The people clamoring for CYS to take the kids away, the parents to be charged, etc are just engaging in extreme hyperbole.  They made a mistake- they got distracted, they fucked up.  But mistakes have consequences.

    I also think the zoo is responsible since clearly the design of the exhibit was insufficient since a child was able to crawl through the protective barriers and fall into the exhibit.

    Unfortunately, I think the zoo staff did exactly what was needed to be done to save the child.  Harambe was in no way trying to protect the child, he was trying to protect his troop from the child.  The main job of a male gorilla is to protect his troop, and they do this by engaging in display behavior that often involved them slamming and dragging things around. . . like he was doing with the child.

    A zoo keeper who worked with gorillas and is experienced in their behavior confirmed this:
    "Males do very elaborate displays when highly agitated, slamming and dragging things about.

    "Typically they would drag large branches, barrels and heavy weighted balls around to make as much noise as possible.

    "Not in an effort to hurt anyone or anything (usually) but just to intimidate. 

    Harambe reaches for the boys hands and arms, but only to position the child better for his own displaying purposes." (source: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/zookeeper-explains-harambe-gorilla-die-8092794; Amanda O'Donoughue has spoken about this incident in several different articles, as have other zookeepers and experts on gorilla behavior.)

    On top of this, the poor gorilla was likely scared and super confused by all the damn people watching this unfold and freaking the fuck out.  When animals are afraid and feel threatened they can be unpredictable and violent- completely natural responses.  Tranquilizing an animal that large and powerful wasn't an option because it could have made him more agitated and violent, it's called a paradoxical effect, and it would have taken a while to take effect. . . time wasn't on the child's side.

    It's a sad situation all around.  I'm sorry Harambe had to be killed, but the staff had to save the child.  And I say that as a person who eats meat, kills spiders, and doesn't feel that humans are any more entitled to life or that our lives have any more inherent value by virtue of us being born homo sapiens than any other animal on the planet.

    We're all animals, all of our lives are precious and finite.  The ability to have empathy is what really separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom.





    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


    mrsconn23OurWildKingdomSP29


  • A zoo keeper who worked with gorillas and is experienced in their behavior confirmed this:
    "Males do very elaborate displays when highly agitated, slamming and dragging things about.

    "Typically they would drag large branches, barrels and heavy weighted balls around to make as much noise as possible.

    "Not in an effort to hurt anyone or anything (usually) but just to intimidate.  


    SITB:
    Male chimps have similar behaviors. (I'm no chimp expert, but recently read one of Jane Goodall's books, and she described this behavior in multiple chapters.)
  • PrettyGirlLostPrettyGirlLost A Land Filled with Unicorns and Cat Hair member
    5000 Comments Fifth Anniversary 500 Love Its First Answer
    *Barbie* said:


    A zoo keeper who worked with gorillas and is experienced in their behavior confirmed this:
    "Males do very elaborate displays when highly agitated, slamming and dragging things about.

    "Typically they would drag large branches, barrels and heavy weighted balls around to make as much noise as possible.

    "Not in an effort to hurt anyone or anything (usually) but just to intimidate.  


    SITB:
    Male chimps have similar behaviors. (I'm no chimp expert, but recently read one of Jane Goodall's books, and she described this behavior in multiple chapters.)
    Chimpanzees are supposedly even more violent and dangerous than gorillas.  There have been stories of wild chimps preying on human babies, and they are one of a few non human species who have been observed killing other animals (in this case smaller primates) just for the sake of killing them.

    I don't romanticize non human primates in any way. . . they creep me out, frankly.

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


    scrunchythief
  • *Varuna's nerd moment*

    Primates are really interesting.  While chimps are male dominated and their societies are structured on order through an alpha male and aggression, bonobos are female pack led and structured on keeping peace through sexual acts (including between the females).  Both of their ancestors are included in the human family tree.  

    I've read half a dozen books or so, both nonfiction and fiction, that's compared/contrasted the two different animal societies in depth and the implications for human society.

    *End nerd moment*

    SP29
  • *Barbie* said:

    Chimpanzees are supposedly even more violent and dangerous than gorillas.  There have been stories of wild chimps preying on human babies, and they are one of a few non human species who have been observed killing other animals (in this case smaller primates) just for the sake of killing them.

    I don't romanticize non human primates in any way. . . they creep me out, frankly.
    One of Jane's stories was about a mother/daughter pair that were higher ranking in the chimp community that would kill and cannibalize infants from other mothers in their community. She also talked about the chimps attacking/killing/eating other smaller primates.

    I love seeing the primates in the zoo setting, and would love to see them in the wild, but i don't fool myself into thinking that captivity will make them "tame." My cousin actually hired an animal trainer to bring a chimp for her son's birthday (there was only a few of us there - and her son was the only child (~10 or so) so it wasn't overwhelming), and the trainer stressed how dangerous they are. I got to hold the chimp for a while, and it was amazing how strong he was at 1 year old. The trainer told us that typically the chimps that you see in movies/TV are less then 3yo, because by that point, they are very dangerous and could easily hurt a trainer. He worked with several zoos/sanctuaries - so when his animals hit 3, he would send them there.
    VarunaTT
  • PrettyGirlLostPrettyGirlLost A Land Filled with Unicorns and Cat Hair member
    5000 Comments Fifth Anniversary 500 Love Its First Answer
    *Barbie* said:
    *Barbie* said:

    Chimpanzees are supposedly even more violent and dangerous than gorillas.  There have been stories of wild chimps preying on human babies, and they are one of a few non human species who have been observed killing other animals (in this case smaller primates) just for the sake of killing them.

    I don't romanticize non human primates in any way. . . they creep me out, frankly.
    One of Jane's stories was about a mother/daughter pair that were higher ranking in the chimp community that would kill and cannibalize infants from other mothers in their community. She also talked about the chimps attacking/killing/eating other smaller primates.

    I love seeing the primates in the zoo setting, and would love to see them in the wild, but i don't fool myself into thinking that captivity will make them "tame." My cousin actually hired an animal trainer to bring a chimp for her son's birthday (there was only a few of us there - and her son was the only child (~10 or so) so it wasn't overwhelming), and the trainer stressed how dangerous they are. I got to hold the chimp for a while, and it was amazing how strong he was at 1 year old. The trainer told us that typically the chimps that you see in movies/TV are less then 3yo, because by that point, they are very dangerous and could easily hurt a trainer. He worked with several zoos/sanctuaries - so when his animals hit 3, he would send them there.
    The worst thing about primate houses at zoos are how homo sapiens act ><

    I hate watching people tease them, goad them, bare their teeth at them, etc.

    VarunaTT said:
    *Varuna's nerd moment*

    Primates are really interesting.  While chimps are male dominated and their societies are structured on order through an alpha male and aggression, bonobos are female pack led and structured on keeping peace through sexual acts (including between the females).  Both of their ancestors are included in the human family tree.  

    I've read half a dozen books or so, both nonfiction and fiction, that's compared/contrasted the two different animal societies in depth and the implications for human society.

    *End nerd moment*


    I prefer what horses do when heard members act up- the alpha female tried their ass out of the herd and only lets them remain at the periphery of the herd until she decides they can rejoin the herd.

    You act like an ass, you get shunned.  I'm sure as shit not going to reward you with sex! ;-)

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


    SP29
  • Yeah, I get so sick of there always having to be someone to blame for everything. I agree, sometimes shit just happens no matter what you do. This is sad, but no way as sad as it would have been if the child had been killed or seriously harmed. To be honest that's the bottom line for me. It's not like the mother left her kids in a hotel room alone while she went out for tapas with her friends. Kids are unpredictable, they just are. I looked after my 2yo nephew the other week and man is he fast. And sneaky as fuck too  :D

    But I guess mum's are pilloried in some way no matter what they do. 
    Don't even get me started on the McCanns.
    Also, I don't see half the amount of vitriol for the Japanese parents who left their child in the woods and who has only just been found after nearly a week?!
    Wedding Countdown Ticker





    SP29
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