what do you think?

LondonLisa

DrillSergeantCat said:

eileenrob said:

Not a fan of changing up the flag.  At least in my area, Blue Lives matter started when two NYPD officers were shot and killed in Brooklyn in December 2014 simply because they were cops.  It was a few months after the Eric Garner tragedy in NYC (and lots of cases of cops abusing their power around the country). 
My big eye roll with blue lives matter as a response to black lives matter is that a member of any race can choose to be a cop, whereas you're either born black or you're not.  It's ridiculous to use blue lives matter as a rally cry or a response because it's just not the same.  That being said, I greatly appreciate what the majority of police do for our society 24/7/365.

As usual, Jon Stewart gets it right:

You can also choose to be a criminal. I know that blacks are sentenced disproportionately to whites for the same crimes and I do not understand that, but studies I've read show that whites are actually shot and killed by the police more often than any other race. This is a media issue. 

You have to be purposefully obtuse or living in the throws of a Trump-endused fugue state to think that the institutionalised racisim is a media problem. 

There are a lot of things that are great about America (like all countries) and a lot of things that need fixing (like all countries). If you don't think that there is a problem with institutionalised racism in many countries' police forces, you are living in a fantasty land. Your own Department of Justice found that the Baltimore police practiced systematic racism. 

Do you read anything beyond unsourced, reposted Facebook meme statistics?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/01/black-americans-killed-by-police-analysis

https://www.splcenter.org/news/2016/07/19/black-lives-matter-not-hate-group

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/08/09/us/baltimore-justice-department-report/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11450804/The-shocking-racism-at-the-heart-of-one-US-police-force.html

DrillSergeantCat

Sherbie25 said:

It bothers me to say this, but the attitude and opinions I'm reading shed some light on how someone can associate with people who call children 'faggots' and say they should get a dildo.
People need to pull their head out of their arse and look around. 

So I'm a bad person because I have a friend who thinks you can turn people gay? Alright. Sure. I personally prefer to do as many others have done here and educate those people. I've learned a lot from reading these posts. 

I didn't know she felt this way and since she's my MOH, I can't cut her off now. After I told them both why dance is good, they shut up. The guy who made the dildo comment admits that one of his favorite things to do is to troll people. He especially likes messing with the mother who said she's putting her son in dance. 

DrillSergeantCat

kimmiinthemitten said:

I support Black Lives Matter because I've never been thrown out of a car for speeding, questioned wearing my natural hair to an interview, wondered if my name kept me from a job, been called a token. 

Funny thing is, I have used this exact argument with a friend who denies white privilege exists.

spockforprez said:

Disclaimer: white lady here. From my first interactions with it, BLM to me has always been a sort of cry of deep desperation to humanize people who are dehumanized by the justice system and media coverage. I've never seen it as "BLACK lives matter," but as "black lives MATTER!" As in, wake up! These people being killed aren't animals or just faceless names but actual, real, living, breathing human beings who deserve the same rights as the white majority. Which everyone "knows" but is clearly not the reality. So the phrase and the movement exist because of that disconnect. It's becoming rarer to see out and out racists who proclaim their hate in public in plain, blatant words... but the insidious, hidden hate inside hearts as well as institutional racism and discrimination - that's why BLM exists. In my understanding.  

I deeply appreciate police officers - one of them saved my husband's life and I will never forget what he did. They have a dangerous, thankless job that involves great personal and family sacrifice which often goes unnoticed. Unfortunately there are bad people who are police officers and there is also corruption and both hidden and blatant racism within police organizations. You can desire reform of an institution while still having respect and gratitude for it - hell, there are a million and one things I'd change about America, but I still love being American and am grateful to have been born here. Dissent and criticism should not be barred from the conversation and that is what Blue Lives Matters does, IMO. Unless it's completely praiseworthy, it can't be discussed. Nothing will change if criticism cannot even be brought up.

I love this and it really does help me see it differently. I, like short+sassy, felt like it was saying Black Lives Matter MORE. Your explanation is perfect. I admit I live in a bubble. I read a lot, but it's mostly from local news sources and given where I'm from is skewed because we're a red state. 

kimmiinthemitten

@short+sassy your explanation helped me understand how other people may have perceived it, but to be honest, I don't have a problem with Black Lives Mattering More right now.

Let's say you and your husband are home sick.  You have cancer and he has a cold.  It's safe to say that your sickness matters more.  Well, I think racism is a cancer on our society, and eliminating that cancer should matter far more than protecting the safe little bubble us white people get to live in.  It's why I support Affirmative Action.  White Lives have always Mattered More (capitalization for emphasis).  It's okay if we matter less while we right the wrongs that have been created by hundreds of years of us in power.

This isn't just about slavery.  It started at slavery, and we have taken baby step after baby step to look like we're trying to rectify it.  While one hand is patting ourselves on the back for granting property and voting rights, the other hand is held out to ensure that they don't have an equal chance though bogus Voter ID laws and discriminatory lending and housing practices. 

teddygirl9

Besides the BLM part - I've noticed Americans in general are very...protective of their flag. It has to be folded just so, there are certain rituals about it. I find that all very odd. We put our flag on anything and everything, and I would probably feel sad if I saw someone stomping on it or something, but just because they sat on it, or made a beach towel out of it and wrapped it around themselves, eh not bothered.

Sherbie25

DrillSergeantCat said:

Sherbie25 said:

It bothers me to say this, but the attitude and opinions I'm reading shed some light on how someone can associate with people who call children 'faggots' and say they should get a dildo.
People need to pull their head out of their arse and look around. 

So I'm a bad person because I have a friend who thinks you can turn people gay? Alright. Sure. I personally prefer to do as many others have done here and educate those people. I've learned a lot from reading these posts. 

I didn't know she felt this way and since she's my MOH, I can't cut her off now. After I told them both why dance is good, they shut up. The guy who made the dildo comment admits that one of his favorite things to do is to troll people. He especially likes messing with the mother who said she's putting her son in dance. 

I didn't say you were a bad person but you have an ugly and ignorant attitude and opinion of black people and their issues based on this thread.
My brother is gay; if someone referred to him as a faggot I would have no problem cutting them off. There are family members on my dad's side I don't speak to due to the way they view and treat my brother. Being a MOH is no excuse. The guy who thinks it's ok to troll mothers about their children sounds like a despicable person. You told them why dance is good; whoop de do. Did you tell them their language and attitude was gross and offensive? The remarks they made aren't born of ignorance, they come from being homophobic. There are people who are ignorant and would benefit from 'educating' and there are people who have the knowledge and are just arseholes.
I think you've gotten off lightly here. The woman who made remarks about Hispanics at work got ripped apart (and rightly so). 

LondonLisa

DrillSergeantCat said:

kimmiinthemitten said:

I support Black Lives Matter because I've never been thrown out of a car for speeding, questioned wearing my natural hair to an interview, wondered if my name kept me from a job, been called a token. 

Funny thing is, I have used this exact argument with a friend who denies white privilege exists.

spockforprez said:

Disclaimer: white lady here. From my first interactions with it, BLM to me has always been a sort of cry of deep desperation to humanize people who are dehumanized by the justice system and media coverage. I've never seen it as "BLACK lives matter," but as "black lives MATTER!" As in, wake up! These people being killed aren't animals or just faceless names but actual, real, living, breathing human beings who deserve the same rights as the white majority. Which everyone "knows" but is clearly not the reality. So the phrase and the movement exist because of that disconnect. It's becoming rarer to see out and out racists who proclaim their hate in public in plain, blatant words... but the insidious, hidden hate inside hearts as well as institutional racism and discrimination - that's why BLM exists. In my understanding.  

I deeply appreciate police officers - one of them saved my husband's life and I will never forget what he did. They have a dangerous, thankless job that involves great personal and family sacrifice which often goes unnoticed. Unfortunately there are bad people who are police officers and there is also corruption and both hidden and blatant racism within police organizations. You can desire reform of an institution while still having respect and gratitude for it - hell, there are a million and one things I'd change about America, but I still love being American and am grateful to have been born here. Dissent and criticism should not be barred from the conversation and that is what Blue Lives Matters does, IMO. Unless it's completely praiseworthy, it can't be discussed. Nothing will change if criticism cannot even be brought up.

I love this and it really does help me see it differently. I, like short+sassy, felt like it was saying Black Lives Matter MORE. Your explanation is perfect. I admit I live in a bubble. I read a lot, but it's mostly from local news sources and given where I'm from is skewed because we're a red state. 

This is called White Privilege. You choose to live in a bubble because you can. It is ignorant and wrong. But where you are willfully negligent is living in your place of privilege and throwing around very, very racist uniformed opinions. Your correct response in a situation like this should be "Wow, I live in a bubble and have heard conflicting things. Could someone please give me some clarification and sourced facts/ articles?" instead of throwing around really disgusting, racist and flat out wrong "facts". 

When you only read local papers, and only affiliate with people who are ignorant, you start to see confirmation bias. That is, in your world, everyone you know and everything you read has the same world view. Therefore you start to think everyone is like that and not understand the real problems. 

You yourself admit you are uninformed. The true strength of your character and test of your integrity is what you do from here. The BBC online is free, here is the north American version:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world/us_and_canada

Read "The Atlantic".  You can read 3 free articles a week in "The Economist". You can get 20 free "Washington Post" articles a month. You get 10 free articles of the "New York Times".  And no, Fox News and The Daily Mail do not count as "news". Make sure your Journalism is worthy to start with a capital 'J'. 

Southern Poverty Law Centre articles are free and written by well-respected civil rights lawyers https://www.splcenter.org/ . And you are in desperate need of reading some Ta-Nehisi Coates. 

It is time to pop your racist bubble and start to get informed. The true test of if you are " a bad person" or not is if you start to read, get informed and stop throwing around racist falshoods, or if you are lazy, retreat to your comfort, status quo bubble of not correcting racist/homophobic behaviour and even perpetuating it with flasehoods because it is easier. I sincerely hope you choose the former. Your integrity depends on it. 

kimmiinthemitten

LondonLisa said:

This is called White Privilege. You choose to live in a bubble because you can. It is ignorant and wrong. But where you are willfully negligent is living in your place of privilege and throwing around very, very racist uniformed opinions. Your correct response in a situation like this should be "Wow, I live in a bubble and have heard conflicting things. Could someone please give me some clarification and sourced facts/ articles?" instead of throwing around really disgusting, racist and flat out wrong "facts". 

When you only read local papers, and only affiliate with people who are ignorant, you start to see confirmation bias. That is, in your world, everyone you know and everything you read has the same world view. Therefore you start to think everyone is like that and not understand the real problems. 

You yourself admit you are uninformed. The true strength of your character and test of your integrity is what you do from here. The BBC online is free, here is the north American version:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world/us_and_canada

Read "The Atlantic".  You can read 3 free articles a week in "The Economist". You can get 20 free "Washington Post" articles a month. You get 10 free articles of the "New York Times".  And no, Fox News and The Daily Mail do not count as "news". Make sure your Journalism is worthy to start with a capital 'J'. 

Southern Poverty Law Centre articles are free and written by well-respected civil rights lawyers https://www.splcenter.org/ . And you are in desperate need of reading some Ta-Nehisi Coates. 

It is time to pop your racist bubble and start to get informed. The true test of if you are " a bad person" or not is if you start to read, get informed and stop throwing around racist falshoods, or if you are lazy, retreat to your comfort, status quo bubble of not correcting racist/homophobic behaviour and even perpetuating it with flasehoods because it is easier. I sincerely hope you choose the former. Your integrity depends on it. 

I second this.  @drillsargaentcat While your original defense of Blue Lives Matter and descriptions of criminals are racist, despicable and abhorrent, you did come around and with less provocation than the Hispanic racist poster.  @sherbie25 I think that's why she got less crap.  The other poster would never admit that she was wrong, just that she needs to change her behavior.  This tells me that making a concerted effort to source your news and research new thoughts would benefit you and expand your horizon. 

With research, you would know that not all "criminals" make that choice, but targeted policing leads to black people being more likely to be arrested for the same crimes as white people.  For example, between the ages of 18-25, white people are more likely to be active marijuana users than black people, but in some states black men are 8x more likely to be arrested for possession.  Did that "criminal" choose that life more than the white male?

With research, you would see that being targeted for being black crosses economic brackets, ages, state and national borders.  Oprah was treated poorly in a store for Europe because the cashier assumed she couldn't afford what was in the store.  One of two black senators, Republican Tim Scott, has been accused by Secret Service of faking the credentials needed to enter his own office building.   You would know that white people account for 60% of total arrests but black men are 6x more likely to serve jail time.

You said yourself, you don't live in a very progressive state.  Oklahoma allows you to register to vote online, but only if you have a drivers license.  The state legislature reviewed 26 laws targeting the LGBT community after the SC granted marriage equality and OK now allows the use of a firing squad as a last minute alternative to to the death penalty.  If you want to live outside of your bubble, it's on you to do the work.

charlotte989875

Also, if anyone is interested in exploring the data on police involved shootings the Washington Post makes it available and easily searchable here, https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/

It also links to stories where there data has been used and their methodology. I highly recommend using this to see and use the data yourself. 

kylexo

this is stolen from a reddit thread about BLM, but covers why saying All Lives Matter or Blue Lives Matter or whatever is dismissive and problematic:

Imagine that you're sitting down to dinner with your family, and while everyone else gets a serving of the meal, you don't get any. So you say, "I should get my fair share." And as a direct response to this, your dad corrects you, saying, "Everyone should get their fair share." Now, that's a wonderful sentiment — Indeed, everyone should, and that was kinda your point in the first place: that you should be a part of everyone, and you should get your fair share also. However, dad's smart-ass comment just dismissed you and didn't solve the problem that you still haven't gotten any!
The problem is that the statement "I should get my fair share" had an implicit "too" at the end: "I should get my fair share, too, just like everyone else." But your dad's response treated your statement as though you meant "only I should get my fair share," which clearly was not your intention. As a result, his statement that "everyone should get their fair share," while true, only served to ignore the problem you were trying to point out.
Just like asking dad for your fair share, the phrase "black lives matter" also has an implicit "too" at the end: It's saying that black lives should also matter. But responding to this by saying "all lives matter" is willfully going back to ignoring the problem. It's a way of dismissing the statement by falsely suggesting that it means "only black lives matter," when that is obviously not the case. And so saying "all lives matter" as a direct response to "black lives matter" is essentially saying that we should just go back to ignoring the problem.

that said, it's pretty easy to educate yourself about this kind stuff if you care to. in this day and age, there really isn't any good excuse for ignorance outside of laziness or straight up not caring. we're all guilty of it sometimes, the difference is how do you react to your privilege being called out? do you go on the defensive or do you LEARN? i've said, done and believed things that were biased and wrong before, but fortunately i've had people in my life who were able to call me out on it and i could learn and grow from the experience.

kimmiinthemitten

charlotte989875 said:

Also, if anyone is interested in exploring the data on police involved shootings the Washington Post makes it available and easily searchable here, https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/

It also links to stories where there data has been used and their methodology. I highly recommend using this to see and use the data yourself. 

The very first example (last shooting in 2015):

DECEMBER 2015
Keith Childress - an unarmed 23-year-old black man, was shot on Dec. 31, 2015, in Las Vegas, Nev. Las Vegas Metropolitan police were helping a U.S. Marshals Task Force serve a warrant on Childress for charges in Arizona. Officers mistook a cellphone Childress was holding for a weapon.
MALE UNARMED BLACK 18 TO 29

DrillSergeantCat

kylexo said:

that said, it's pretty easy to educate yourself about this kind stuff if you care to. in this day and age, there really isn't any good excuse for ignorance outside of laziness or straight up not caring. we're all guilty of it sometimes, the difference is how do you react to your privilege being called out? do you go on the defensive or do you LEARN? i've said, done and believed things that were biased and wrong before, but fortunately i've had people in my life who were able to call me out on it and i could learn and grow from the experience.

I really am open to being educated about this. I've admitted that I live in my own little world and I know that needs to change. I can admit that I'm more racist, after seeing these responses, than I thought I was. I didn't consider myself "racist" because I personally haven't done anything to physically harm someone and I do recognize white privilege and racial inequalities exitst, but I realize now that is not enough. In real life interactions, I treat everyone the same, but when it comes to people I don't know I do make snap judgements. 

As for my friend and the faggot comment, it's deplorable that she said it. She knows I don't think that way and I don't know why she said it at all, but especially to me. It is out of the ordinary for her to say something like that and I know something is going on with her, but she's not talking about it right now. I had no idea in the years that I've known her that she was that homophobic. I don't honestly know how to handle it. At this point, I feel like even if there was solid, scientific proof that homosexuality is not a choice she wouldn't believe it. If anyone has advice to help me with this one, I'd love to hear it. 

redwoodoriginal

DrillSergeantCat said:

kylexo said:

that said, it's pretty easy to educate yourself about this kind stuff if you care to. in this day and age, there really isn't any good excuse for ignorance outside of laziness or straight up not caring. we're all guilty of it sometimes, the difference is how do you react to your privilege being called out? do you go on the defensive or do you LEARN? i've said, done and believed things that were biased and wrong before, but fortunately i've had people in my life who were able to call me out on it and i could learn and grow from the experience.

I really am open to being educated about this. I've admitted that I live in my own little world and I know that needs to change. I can admit that I'm more racist, after seeing these responses, than I thought I was. I didn't consider myself "racist" because I personally haven't done anything to physically harm someone and I do recognize white privilege and racial inequalities exitst, but I realize now that is not enough. In real life interactions, I treat everyone the same, but when it comes to people I don't know I do make snap judgements. 

As for my friend and the faggot comment, it's deplorable that she said it. She knows I don't think that way and I don't know why she said it at all, but especially to me. It is out of the ordinary for her to say something like that and I know something is going on with her, but she's not talking about it right now. I had no idea in the years that I've known her that she was that homophobic. I don't honestly know how to handle it. At this point, I feel like even if there was solid, scientific proof that homosexuality is not a choice she wouldn't believe it. If anyone has advice to help me with this one, I'd love to hear it. 

Uh, you say. 1. Don't use that offensive term. 2. Being gay is not a choice and dance class will not make someone gay. 3. Stop being homophobic. 

Done and done. 

climbingsingle

Story time. Back in 2010, I was riding passenger in a car with my male friend driving, who happens to be black. My friend was a star athlete in HS, attended an ivy league school, and had never been in trouble with the police ever. His dad is also a retired NY state trooper. So, a very accomplished person, and model citizen. I can't say the same about myself. 

We're driving, he's not speeding or breaking the law. We get pulled over. The way the cop spoke to my friend made me sick to my stomach. I have never in my life been spoken to like that by a police officer. And then the officer asked him what he was doing with a "white girl" in his car. And then he actually asked me if I was in the car by my own choice! 

What also made me sick was how scared my friend was. He'd been pulled over before, mostly for bogus reasons. And he knew that because of his color, anything could happen during this traffic stop. He complied with everything the office said, and eventually he let us go. He never once even explained why we were pulled over. 

So:
1. If you think there's not a racial problem in this country, you are part of the problem. 
2. If you think there's no reason for the BLM movement, again, you are part of the problem. 
3. If you think BLM means their lives matter more, YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM. 

TrixieJess

I'm late to this thread but here it is. I'm a whitey, white girl. However, I have many friends who are part of the BLM in Toronto and have many native friends who are activists and work with BLM. 

It's not a BLM vs all other lives, it's a "hey, why the hell don't we matter". When you start to look at it that way, you can start to understand why Blue Lives Matter and All Lives Matter is offensive. 

Here's a pyramid to help you understand your racist narrative:

levioosa

 I'll share a story too.  

A few years ago, my ex and I were driving back to my house in his car.  His car had the windows tinted, illegal exhaust, and a few other things that he thought were "cool."  We got pulled over.  He rolled down his window, and the cop actually took a step back and said, "Oh, you're not....nevermind.  Have a nice day."  

THAT ACTUALLY FUCKING HAPPENED.  And it made me sick.  It also happened on three other occasions.  My ex was as white as you could get. He didn't get questioned.  Because you can bet if he had been any other color, it wouldn't have ended with "have a nice day."  

People who think racism is dead, that it doesn't exist since Civil Rights, are delusional.  You don't disband an institutionalized belief with a few laws.  Thinking racism is dead and patting yourself on the back because you don't say overly racist things or treat people super shitty is at the core of White Privilege. 

kimmiinthemitten

redwoodoriginal said:

Uh, you say. 1. Don't use that offensive term. 2. Being gay is not a choice and dance class will not make someone gay. 3. Stop being homophobic. 

Done and done. 

^This - silence implies consent.

"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." - Martin Luther King Jr.

LondonLisa

redwoodoriginal said:

DrillSergeantCat said:

kylexo said:

that said, it's pretty easy to educate yourself about this kind stuff if you care to. in this day and age, there really isn't any good excuse for ignorance outside of laziness or straight up not caring. we're all guilty of it sometimes, the difference is how do you react to your privilege being called out? do you go on the defensive or do you LEARN? i've said, done and believed things that were biased and wrong before, but fortunately i've had people in my life who were able to call me out on it and i could learn and grow from the experience.

I really am open to being educated about this. I've admitted that I live in my own little world and I know that needs to change. I can admit that I'm more racist, after seeing these responses, than I thought I was. I didn't consider myself "racist" because I personally haven't done anything to physically harm someone and I do recognize white privilege and racial inequalities exitst, but I realize now that is not enough. In real life interactions, I treat everyone the same, but when it comes to people I don't know I do make snap judgements. 

As for my friend and the faggot comment, it's deplorable that she said it. She knows I don't think that way and I don't know why she said it at all, but especially to me. It is out of the ordinary for her to say something like that and I know something is going on with her, but she's not talking about it right now. I had no idea in the years that I've known her that she was that homophobic. I don't honestly know how to handle it. At this point, I feel like even if there was solid, scientific proof that homosexuality is not a choice she wouldn't believe it. If anyone has advice to help me with this one, I'd love to hear it. 

Uh, you say. 1. Don't use that offensive term. 2. Being gay is not a choice and dance class will not make someone gay. 3. Stop being homophobic. 

Done and done. 

And I'd add 4. The only ' pervert'  is the grown woman thinking about a young CHILD and them using a sex toy, regardless of orientation. 

Seriously, that is so fucked up! 

DrillSergeantCat

I should have said more. I was just in shock at the time that she said it. I'm going to talk to her about it and let her know that that kind of thinking and speech is unacceptable to me. If it ends the friendship, so be it. I just keep hoping that she said it for shock value (which doesn't make it right) because she's never said anything even remotely like this before. 

Sherbie25

LondonLisa said:

DrillSergeantCat said:

kimmiinthemitten said:

I support Black Lives Matter because I've never been thrown out of a car for speeding, questioned wearing my natural hair to an interview, wondered if my name kept me from a job, been called a token. 

Funny thing is, I have used this exact argument with a friend who denies white privilege exists.

spockforprez said:

Disclaimer: white lady here. From my first interactions with it, BLM to me has always been a sort of cry of deep desperation to humanize people who are dehumanized by the justice system and media coverage. I've never seen it as "BLACK lives matter," but as "black lives MATTER!" As in, wake up! These people being killed aren't animals or just faceless names but actual, real, living, breathing human beings who deserve the same rights as the white majority. Which everyone "knows" but is clearly not the reality. So the phrase and the movement exist because of that disconnect. It's becoming rarer to see out and out racists who proclaim their hate in public in plain, blatant words... but the insidious, hidden hate inside hearts as well as institutional racism and discrimination - that's why BLM exists. In my understanding.  

I deeply appreciate police officers - one of them saved my husband's life and I will never forget what he did. They have a dangerous, thankless job that involves great personal and family sacrifice which often goes unnoticed. Unfortunately there are bad people who are police officers and there is also corruption and both hidden and blatant racism within police organizations. You can desire reform of an institution while still having respect and gratitude for it - hell, there are a million and one things I'd change about America, but I still love being American and am grateful to have been born here. Dissent and criticism should not be barred from the conversation and that is what Blue Lives Matters does, IMO. Unless it's completely praiseworthy, it can't be discussed. Nothing will change if criticism cannot even be brought up.

I love this and it really does help me see it differently. I, like short+sassy, felt like it was saying Black Lives Matter MORE. Your explanation is perfect. I admit I live in a bubble. I read a lot, but it's mostly from local news sources and given where I'm from is skewed because we're a red state. 

This is called White Privilege. You choose to live in a bubble because you can. It is ignorant and wrong. But where you are willfully negligent is living in your place of privilege and throwing around very, very racist uniformed opinions. Your correct response in a situation like this should be "Wow, I live in a bubble and have heard conflicting things. Could someone please give me some clarification and sourced facts/ articles?" instead of throwing around really disgusting, racist and flat out wrong "facts". 

When you only read local papers, and only affiliate with people who are ignorant, you start to see confirmation bias. That is, in your world, everyone you know and everything you read has the same world view. Therefore you start to think everyone is like that and not understand the real problems. 

You yourself admit you are uninformed. The true strength of your character and test of your integrity is what you do from here. The BBC online is free, here is the north American version:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world/us_and_canada

Read "The Atlantic".  You can read 3 free articles a week in "The Economist". You can get 20 free "Washington Post" articles a month. You get 10 free articles of the "New York Times".  And no, Fox News and The Daily Mail do not count as "news". Make sure your Journalism is worthy to start with a capital 'J'. 

Southern Poverty Law Centre articles are free and written by well-respected civil rights lawyers https://www.splcenter.org/ . And you are in desperate need of reading some Ta-Nehisi Coates. 

It is time to pop your racist bubble and start to get informed. The true test of if you are " a bad person" or not is if you start to read, get informed and stop throwing around racist falshoods, or if you are lazy, retreat to your comfort, status quo bubble of not correcting racist/homophobic behaviour and even perpetuating it with flasehoods because it is easier. I sincerely hope you choose the former. Your integrity depends on it. 

Excellent, I think is the crux of the problem. People don't make an effort to educate themselves and inform their opinions X 

Sherbie25

redwoodoriginal said:

DrillSergeantCat said:

kylexo said:

that said, it's pretty easy to educate yourself about this kind stuff if you care to. in this day and age, there really isn't any good excuse for ignorance outside of laziness or straight up not caring. we're all guilty of it sometimes, the difference is how do you react to your privilege being called out? do you go on the defensive or do you LEARN? i've said, done and believed things that were biased and wrong before, but fortunately i've had people in my life who were able to call me out on it and i could learn and grow from the experience.

I really am open to being educated about this. I've admitted that I live in my own little world and I know that needs to change. I can admit that I'm more racist, after seeing these responses, than I thought I was. I didn't consider myself "racist" because I personally haven't done anything to physically harm someone and I do recognize white privilege and racial inequalities exitst, but I realize now that is not enough. In real life interactions, I treat everyone the same, but when it comes to people I don't know I do make snap judgements. 

As for my friend and the faggot comment, it's deplorable that she said it. She knows I don't think that way and I don't know why she said it at all, but especially to me. It is out of the ordinary for her to say something like that and I know something is going on with her, but she's not talking about it right now. I had no idea in the years that I've known her that she was that homophobic. I don't honestly know how to handle it. At this point, I feel like even if there was solid, scientific proof that homosexuality is not a choice she wouldn't believe it. If anyone has advice to help me with this one, I'd love to hear it. 

Uh, you say. 1. Don't use that offensive term. 2. Being gay is not a choice and dance class will not make someone gay. 3. Stop being homophobic. 

Done and done.

stuck in box

having something going on doesn't result in homophobic attitudes unless it's already there. And even if being gay is a choice (I don't think it is but that's beside the point) so what? If people choose to be with some one of the same sex it doesn't mean people can hate and abuse them.

jacques27

short+sassy said:

crowsgirl15 said:

I did not attach the image correctly, lol. This is what I was trying to show:

Not to be a contrarian, but ironically this tweet makes the point I was trying to make earlier.

If someone says, "Save the Rainforests", than YES, that EXACLTY implies to me that they care more about Rainforests than other ecological wonders.  Hence why a rainforest was specifically mentioned and not just the earth in general.

However it doesn't imply to me "Fuck All Other Types of Forests".  That's a made-up jump.  One can like and want to save all forests, but also have a particular yen for rainforests.

And that was essentially how I initially misunderstood the phrase "Black Lives Matter".  I didn't take it to mean that ONLY Black Lives Matter, but I did have the initial impression that Black Lives Matter "more", rather than "too", just in the specific circumstance of violent deaths.  Because all unwarranted officer shootings are a travesty and an equal travesty, regardless of the race of the victim.  So the focusing on one racial group, implied an invisible "more" at the end of the phrase (to me).

I'm not arguing that I was mistaken in my initial reaction.  Just trying to explain where it came from for me, since most people "got" what the true meaning was right off the get go.

Except that the statement isn't about having an affinity or "yen" for something - it's advocating for something that is fundamentally broken.  He's not saying save the rainforests because they are pretty; he's saying save them because they are in danger.  I know you say you since have learned the true intention of the statement, but I think those that are interpreting the statement as such (with "more" instead of "too") are (in some cases willfully) blind and ignorant to the fact that privilege and racism exists.  When you see it, it's really not that hard to realize the statement is speaking about the inequality that exists and that we aren't valuing certain groups of people in the same way.  It's not about elevating above, it's about balancing the inequality that exists.

An analogy I saw that may be more helpful (I don't remember where I originally saw it) is that saying All Lives Matter in response to Black Lives Matter is like going to your doctor with a broken femur.  You tell your doctor "This bone is broken," and your doctor examines every other bone in your body except that one and responds with "Well, all bones matter."  Well, no shit, but how about we go about fixing this broken bone causing pain first?  Yes, "all bones matter" is technically a true statement, but it's patronizing as hell and ignoring the suffering of the one needing immediate assistance.   

spockforprez

This is a poignant and infuriating case study into why Black Lives Matter: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-tale-face-eating-men-white-black-article-1.2756384. 

ernursej

DrillSergeantCat said:

I should have said more. I was just in shock at the time that she said it. I'm going to talk to her about it and let her know that that kind of thinking and speech is unacceptable to me. If it ends the friendship, so be it. I just keep hoping that she said it for shock value (which doesn't make it right) because she's never said anything even remotely like this before. 

I may have an unpopular opinion, but I actually think we should pull people in closer that have homophobic or racist views. I think that when we push people away, we encourage them to seek out others that have similar views.

I think that approaching your friend (like others have suggested and you have said you would) is a good first step. I think calling someone out on behaviour is important but so is saying that you want to work together to change something. People with support and encouragement (to change behaviours) will go a hell-of-a lot further than those without.

I'm sure there are people that will never change and then it is fine to end relationships, but I think the majority of people with those viewpoints can change. They need to be exposed to why that view is wrong and have people who find out why they have those views. A lot of view points come from lack of education and awareness.

kimmiinthemitten

ernursej said:

DrillSergeantCat said:

I should have said more. I was just in shock at the time that she said it. I'm going to talk to her about it and let her know that that kind of thinking and speech is unacceptable to me. If it ends the friendship, so be it. I just keep hoping that she said it for shock value (which doesn't make it right) because she's never said anything even remotely like this before. 

I may have an unpopular opinion, but I actually think we should pull people in closer that have homophobic or racist views. I think that when we push people away, we encourage them to seek out others that have similar views.

I think that approaching your friend (like others have suggested and you have said you would) is a good first step. I think calling someone out on behaviour is important but so is saying that you want to work together to change something. People with support and encouragement (to change behaviours) will go a hell-of-a lot further than those without.

I'm sure there are people that will never change and then it is fine to end relationships, but I think the majority of people with those viewpoints can change. They need to be exposed to why that view is wrong and have people who find out why they have those views. A lot of view points come from lack of education and awareness.

Maybe, maybe not.  But IRL for me, I'm out.

My brother is black and a recovering drug addict.  Every time a black man is shot by a cop, I see his face in the news.  I know what they would say about him, about his two stints in rehab, about how he dropped out of HS.  No one would talk about how funny he was and how everyone who met him liked him.  No one will talk about how hard he worked in rehab, and helped the other patients when they stuggled with sobriety too.  No one would show pictures of him playing with his niece and how much he loved her or his keen ability to always know the next play of every sporting event.  They won't interview his friends and neighbors so we can talk about how nice he was, that is saved for white shooters.  They certainly wouldn't talk about what is happening in America's poorest neighborhoods that leads kids into the drug life at early ages and creates this cycle of poverty and addiction.

If he were killed by a cop tomorrow, and your first instinct is to assume he deserved it, I have no room or space for you in my life.  My brothers life matters, and if you want to argue that you can hit the pavement.  Life isn't a Queen Latifah movie.  If you need some cool ambassador to show you the way, I'm not in.

ernursej

kimmiinthemitten said:

ernursej said:

DrillSergeantCat said:

I should have said more. I was just in shock at the time that she said it. I'm going to talk to her about it and let her know that that kind of thinking and speech is unacceptable to me. If it ends the friendship, so be it. I just keep hoping that she said it for shock value (which doesn't make it right) because she's never said anything even remotely like this before. 

I may have an unpopular opinion, but I actually think we should pull people in closer that have homophobic or racist views. I think that when we push people away, we encourage them to seek out others that have similar views.

I think that approaching your friend (like others have suggested and you have said you would) is a good first step. I think calling someone out on behaviour is important but so is saying that you want to work together to change something. People with support and encouragement (to change behaviours) will go a hell-of-a lot further than those without.

I'm sure there are people that will never change and then it is fine to end relationships, but I think the majority of people with those viewpoints can change. They need to be exposed to why that view is wrong and have people who find out why they have those views. A lot of view points come from lack of education and awareness.

Maybe, maybe not.  But IRL for me, I'm out.

My brother is black and a recovering drug addict.  Every time a black man is shot by a cop, I see his face in the news.  I know what they would say about him, about his two stints in rehab, about how he dropped out of HS.  No one would talk about how funny he was and how everyone who met him liked him.  No one will talk about how hard he worked in rehab, and helped the other patients when they stuggled with sobriety too.  No one would show pictures of him playing with his niece and how much he loved her or his keen ability to always know the next play of every sporting event.  They won't interview his friends and neighbors so we can talk about how nice he was, that is saved for white shooters.  They certainly wouldn't talk about what is happening in America's poorest neighborhoods that leads kids into the drug life at early ages and creates this cycle of poverty and addiction.

If he were killed by a cop tomorrow, and your first instinct is to assume he deserved it, I have no room or space for you in my life.  My brothers life matters, and if you want to argue that you can hit the pavement.  Life isn't a Queen Latifah movie.  If you need some cool ambassador to show you the way, I'm not in.

When you say no one, that is why I'm advocating pulling people in closer to help them change their ways.

If I hate people who play Pokémon (I know it is not a relevant example, but stick with me), I'm likely to never change my opinion if I'm left to my own thoughts. If I'm befriended, pulled in closer, exposed to these people and start to see them as more than they are players of a game, I'm more likely to change my views.

Perhaps those that aren't in your situation need to step up and be the ones that pull people in and help others to see things differently. I can completely respect why you wouldn't want to.

charlotte989875

kimmiinthemitten said:

ernursej said:

DrillSergeantCat said:

I should have said more. I was just in shock at the time that she said it. I'm going to talk to her about it and let her know that that kind of thinking and speech is unacceptable to me. If it ends the friendship, so be it. I just keep hoping that she said it for shock value (which doesn't make it right) because she's never said anything even remotely like this before. 

I may have an unpopular opinion, but I actually think we should pull people in closer that have homophobic or racist views. I think that when we push people away, we encourage them to seek out others that have similar views.

I think that approaching your friend (like others have suggested and you have said you would) is a good first step. I think calling someone out on behaviour is important but so is saying that you want to work together to change something. People with support and encouragement (to change behaviours) will go a hell-of-a lot further than those without.

I'm sure there are people that will never change and then it is fine to end relationships, but I think the majority of people with those viewpoints can change. They need to be exposed to why that view is wrong and have people who find out why they have those views. A lot of view points come from lack of education and awareness.

Maybe, maybe not.  But IRL for me, I'm out.

My brother is black and a recovering drug addict.  Every time a black man is shot by a cop, I see his face in the news.  I know what they would say about him, about his two stints in rehab, about how he dropped out of HS.  No one would talk about how funny he was and how everyone who met him liked him.  No one will talk about how hard he worked in rehab, and helped the other patients when they stuggled with sobriety too.  No one would show pictures of him playing with his niece and how much he loved her or his keen ability to always know the next play of every sporting event.  They won't interview his friends and neighbors so we can talk about how nice he was, that is saved for white shooters.  They certainly wouldn't talk about what is happening in America's poorest neighborhoods that leads kids into the drug life at early ages and creates this cycle of poverty and addiction.

If he were killed by a cop tomorrow, and your first instinct is to assume he deserved it, I have no room or space for you in my life.  My brothers life matters, and if you want to argue that you can hit the pavement.  Life isn't a Queen Latifah movie.  If you need some cool ambassador to show you the way, I'm not in.

I agree with everything, but want to add though as a white, straight woman of privilege I do think it's on me to help explain privilege to other white people. People of color have had to do all the heavy lifting, so to speak, on explaining BLM or white privilege to everyone and from what I've read and people in the movement I've talked to have indicated one of the best ways I can serve is to explain to people who look like me/have privilege like me what responsibility we have to other people so that PoC don't have to do all that, too. 

I may not be a cool ambassador (definitely not cool at all), but I do believe it's on white people to explain to other white people what privilege is and what we can do to make change. 

kimmiinthemitten

charlotte989875 said:

kimmiinthemitten said:

ernursej said:

DrillSergeantCat said:

I should have said more. I was just in shock at the time that she said it. I'm going to talk to her about it and let her know that that kind of thinking and speech is unacceptable to me. If it ends the friendship, so be it. I just keep hoping that she said it for shock value (which doesn't make it right) because she's never said anything even remotely like this before. 

I may have an unpopular opinion, but I actually think we should pull people in closer that have homophobic or racist views. I think that when we push people away, we encourage them to seek out others that have similar views.

I think that approaching your friend (like others have suggested and you have said you would) is a good first step. I think calling someone out on behaviour is important but so is saying that you want to work together to change something. People with support and encouragement (to change behaviours) will go a hell-of-a lot further than those without.

I'm sure there are people that will never change and then it is fine to end relationships, but I think the majority of people with those viewpoints can change. They need to be exposed to why that view is wrong and have people who find out why they have those views. A lot of view points come from lack of education and awareness.

Maybe, maybe not.  But IRL for me, I'm out.

My brother is black and a recovering drug addict.  Every time a black man is shot by a cop, I see his face in the news.  I know what they would say about him, about his two stints in rehab, about how he dropped out of HS.  No one would talk about how funny he was and how everyone who met him liked him.  No one will talk about how hard he worked in rehab, and helped the other patients when they stuggled with sobriety too.  No one would show pictures of him playing with his niece and how much he loved her or his keen ability to always know the next play of every sporting event.  They won't interview his friends and neighbors so we can talk about how nice he was, that is saved for white shooters.  They certainly wouldn't talk about what is happening in America's poorest neighborhoods that leads kids into the drug life at early ages and creates this cycle of poverty and addiction.

If he were killed by a cop tomorrow, and your first instinct is to assume he deserved it, I have no room or space for you in my life.  My brothers life matters, and if you want to argue that you can hit the pavement.  Life isn't a Queen Latifah movie.  If you need some cool ambassador to show you the way, I'm not in.

I agree with everything, but want to add though as a white, straight woman of privilege I do think it's on me to help explain privilege to other white people. People of color have had to do all the heavy lifting, so to speak, on explaining BLM or white privilege to everyone and from what I've read and people in the movement I've talked to have indicated one of the best ways I can serve is to explain to people who look like me/have privilege like me what responsibility we have to other people so that PoC don't have to do all that, too. 

I may not be a cool ambassador (definitely not cool at all), but I do believe it's on white people to explain to other white people what privilege is and what we can do to make change. 

I guess to me there is a difference between calling someone on their privilege and befriending a racist.  If you say some racist, blatant or veiled, shit in front of me, I'm going to call you on it.  I may even explain it to you.  But I'm not going to look at you the same, nor am I going to ask you over for tea after your Klan rally to show you the error of your ways.  

charlotte989875

kimmiinthemitten said:

charlotte989875 said:

kimmiinthemitten said:

ernursej said:

DrillSergeantCat said:

I should have said more. I was just in shock at the time that she said it. I'm going to talk to her about it and let her know that that kind of thinking and speech is unacceptable to me. If it ends the friendship, so be it. I just keep hoping that she said it for shock value (which doesn't make it right) because she's never said anything even remotely like this before. 

I may have an unpopular opinion, but I actually think we should pull people in closer that have homophobic or racist views. I think that when we push people away, we encourage them to seek out others that have similar views.

I think that approaching your friend (like others have suggested and you have said you would) is a good first step. I think calling someone out on behaviour is important but so is saying that you want to work together to change something. People with support and encouragement (to change behaviours) will go a hell-of-a lot further than those without.

I'm sure there are people that will never change and then it is fine to end relationships, but I think the majority of people with those viewpoints can change. They need to be exposed to why that view is wrong and have people who find out why they have those views. A lot of view points come from lack of education and awareness.

Maybe, maybe not.  But IRL for me, I'm out.

My brother is black and a recovering drug addict.  Every time a black man is shot by a cop, I see his face in the news.  I know what they would say about him, about his two stints in rehab, about how he dropped out of HS.  No one would talk about how funny he was and how everyone who met him liked him.  No one will talk about how hard he worked in rehab, and helped the other patients when they stuggled with sobriety too.  No one would show pictures of him playing with his niece and how much he loved her or his keen ability to always know the next play of every sporting event.  They won't interview his friends and neighbors so we can talk about how nice he was, that is saved for white shooters.  They certainly wouldn't talk about what is happening in America's poorest neighborhoods that leads kids into the drug life at early ages and creates this cycle of poverty and addiction.

If he were killed by a cop tomorrow, and your first instinct is to assume he deserved it, I have no room or space for you in my life.  My brothers life matters, and if you want to argue that you can hit the pavement.  Life isn't a Queen Latifah movie.  If you need some cool ambassador to show you the way, I'm not in.

I agree with everything, but want to add though as a white, straight woman of privilege I do think it's on me to help explain privilege to other white people. People of color have had to do all the heavy lifting, so to speak, on explaining BLM or white privilege to everyone and from what I've read and people in the movement I've talked to have indicated one of the best ways I can serve is to explain to people who look like me/have privilege like me what responsibility we have to other people so that PoC don't have to do all that, too. 

I may not be a cool ambassador (definitely not cool at all), but I do believe it's on white people to explain to other white people what privilege is and what we can do to make change. 

I guess to me there is a difference between calling someone on their privilege and befriending a racist.  If you say some racist, blatant or veiled, shit in front of me, I'm going to call you on it.  I may even explain it to you.  But I'm not going to look at you the same, nor am I going to ask you over for tea after your Klan rally to show you the error of your ways.  

Oh totally agree. I have no place for racists in my life. 

But I do think there is a difference between being ignorant and willing to change, and being racist and having no desire to understand the reality of the world we live in. For those in the former category I do feel like it's on me to do something. 

ETA: I see it with my college students a lot. They grew up only hearing one thing, seeing people who look like them, and don't know any better. It's wrong, but they really don't know anything different. So I do think it's my responsibility to explain what privilege is, why it matters, and what they can do to be part of the solution. 

Last ETA I swear; When I had students wear confederate flag shirts to class I could tell them to leave. That what they wore was offensive and disruptive to the learning environment and it wouldn't be permitted. Instead we had a discussion on what that represents to PoC, the history behind it, racsism in America today, etc. and why it's a problem. If they did it again (they didn't) I would have told them to leave. 

monkeysip

There are some people who have offensive beliefs to me, but I know they have a good heart, they're just really ignorant.  Those people I want to educate.  For others, it's coming from a dark, vile place inside, and those are people I just distance myself from as much as possible.  

As much as we want to view people with offensive beliefs as monsters, it's just never that simple.  Human nature is not that simple.  If ALL people with racist views are evil, then that means that pretty much most people for most of history have been evil until our "enlightened" era.