Controversy Chat

holyguacamole79

ahoywedding said:

holyguacamole79 said:

@charlotte989875, yeah, that part leaves much up to the discretion of the chaperones.  yay.  Last year, the student that I saw that was told to cover up had a very low cut dress.  It was quitw blatant.  

@southernbelle0915 that’s my point (your #2).  One of my goals is to help prepare them for the “real world”.  I’m subbing another class today and a student is sitting with one leg tucked under her butt and the other leg with her knee up to her chest.  I didn’t say anything BC I don’t know her and I was proctoring a test.  

I sit like this....all the time. Granted, not in a skirt but I don't see how it's teaching the students poor behavior or poor posture or anything that needs to be corrected. I even sit like that at my desk at work, but when I'm in a meeting with people above me I don't. Your students will catch on as they get older as far as what's professional or appropriate behavior. 

And that was what I noticed ... she was in a skirt.  I didn't look closely to see if she was wearing shorts and I didn't say anything because she's not my student and she was in the midst of a test.  

And I know that they'll "catch on".  I've only said something once to a student and it was one that I knew really well.  

TrixieJess

I have to say that as a student who wore a uniform I took every chance I could to try and push the boundaries. I wore ankle length Doc Martens (no nos), I wore decaled shirts under my uniformed shirts, I wore boxer shorts with things on them that if anyone in the school saw, I would have gotten detention. 

I definitely would have pushed back at any teacher who told me to act "ladylike", and am pretty sure that I did by not, blatantly. Teenagers are trying out their identities and boundaries, they are going to push. 

6fsn

There were many times I sat "big" in a meeting to show that I was in charge.  This really rubs me the wrong way. 

ShesSoCold

holyguacamole79 said:

I agree that the term "lady like" is inappropriate & I will refrain from using that in any discussions about this.  

I was thinking about this last night .... "distracted" isn't the best word.  I think "noticeable" is more accurate.  It's not like I have to stop my lesson and say something.  I notice it and keep going.

You're missing the point, though. It's not (completely) the words you're using, it's that you think it's okay to tell them how they "should feel". It's the whole idea. It's the fact that you're projecting your opinions onto your students. How people (children!) sit is and should be irrelevant to you as a teacher, unless they're blocking aisles or are actually exposing themselves.

holyguacamole79

ShesSoCold said:

holyguacamole79 said:

I agree that the term "lady like" is inappropriate & I will refrain from using that in any discussions about this.  

I was thinking about this last night .... "distracted" isn't the best word.  I think "noticeable" is more accurate.  It's not like I have to stop my lesson and say something.  I notice it and keep going.

You're missing the point, though. It's not (completely) the words you're using, it's that you think it's okay to tell them how they "should feel". It's the whole idea. It's the fact that you're projecting your opinions onto your students. How people (children!) sit is and should be irrelevant to you as a teacher, unless they're blocking aisles or are actually exposing themselves.

Fair enough.  FWIW, I don't consider high schoolers to be "children".  They complain often that they're not taken seriously and that they want to be treated more like adults.  

I think I said this before, but I've said this once to a student.  And it was a student that I know well and knew that she would receive the comment charitably (which she did).  There seems to be a perception that this is something that is consuming me.  99% of the time, if I notice something like that, I keep walking.  

Re: the skirt rolling comment ... we actually just changed uniform vendors and they allegedly have skirts with a different fabric that is "anti-roll".  When that was shared during a faculty meeting, a few teachers busted out laughing.  They'll find a way if they want to.  

There was a discussion once about the strictness of the uniform policy and someone said something that I hadn't considered.  Our private school is a business and our leadership is aware of how the perception of the school may be affected based on how the students act when wearing the uniform & are (officially or unofficially) representing us.  When the students go on a field trip to a museum, theater, or church, they are required to wear their "Mass Uniform", which is a slightly more formal option of what they normally wear.  One of the criteria of one of the top awards for a senior even says, "Eagerly represents [school] at school and public functions that sets her above the rest".  It's something that is valued and important to our leadership.  It's no secret and the whole community is aware of it.  Parents opt to buy into it (literally) or not. 

The story I shared took place at a public school and I agree that there is a big difference.  I also agree that it was handled poorly.  


ETA:  I read this study a while back and found it interesting.  https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sax-sex/201711/who-is-distracted-girl-wearing-skintight-leggings

flantastic

holyguacamole79 said:

There was a discussion once about the strictness of the uniform policy and someone said something that I hadn't considered.  Our private school is a business and our leadership is aware of how the perception of the school may be affected based on how the students act when wearing the uniform & are (officially or unofficially) representing us.  When the students go on a field trip to a museum, theater, or church, they are required to wear their "Mass Uniform", which is a slightly more formal option of what they normally wear.  One of the criteria of one of the top awards for a senior even says, "Eagerly represents [school] at school and public functions that sets her above the rest".  It's something that is valued and important to our leadership.  It's no secret and the whole community is aware of it.  Parents opt to buy into it (literally) or not. 

That "je ne sais quoi" sort of criteria is fine for an award, if they want to be subjective about it. However, if they want all the students to understand how to be in competition for this, then there also need to be clear guidelines and goals for that behavior. The school has directed the students what to wear, and there is literal buy-in for that. If teaching them how to represent the school when they sit [in class?] is a priority for the school, then what seating postures are appropriate need to be conveyed explicitly to the teachers and students and the teachers can bring it up to the students. Otherwise, I don't think you can call them on it.

In school, I thought I was focused on learning (or more realistically, earning good grades, which is sometimes a different ballgame). I was homeschooled until high school and I sat on my couch however was comfortable to do my schoolwork. I still sit crosslegged in my desk chair, but not when I'm meeting with someone. Continually remembering not to put my foot under me on the seat of the chair (my preferred way to sit, generally) would not have been my focus while trying to take notes - taking notes would have been - unless I was being graded on my posture as well.

I also tend to sit with one foot under me on a dining chair, and I think it distracts my MIL occasionally and she worries about how I was raised to sit at a dining table. I don't really worry about that, or the fact that she notices. I prefer to be comfortable while I eat with family, at least when it's in my house. I know better than to do this at my staff Christmas dinner, or really in public. I'm still really good at my job and very professional.

short+sassy

@holyguacamole79, there are a lot of adult jobs that have stricter guidelines...though usually on behavior...if someone is wearing a uniform.  Military and police first come to mind.

That was a really interesting article!  I'm always fascinated by studies that look at human behavior.  They didn't focus on this, but I also found it interesting that the men in swimsuits taking the math test did slightly BETTER than their sweatshirted counterparts.  It makes the women in swimsuits doing worse an even more stark comparison.

As an aside, I realize I'm an oddball, but I absolutely cannot stand leggings.  To me, only nylons are a more uncomfortable article of clothing.  I had a friend who was a "leggings pusher", lol.  For whatever reason, she liked to give me her hand-me-downs.  And she wore a LOT of leggings and was always trying to foist them on me.  It was like she just couldn't fathom...because she liked them so much...that I hated leggings, would never wear them in public anyway, and found them really uncomfortable. 

6fsn

I think the confusion is twice on the first page you said “I told them”. Someone wearing a shirt from a public school is still a representative so the whole it’s a business thing is Bs. 

holyguacamole79

@short+sassy did you see the SNL leggings commercial this weekend?

short+sassy

holyguacamole79 said:

@short+sassy did you see the SNL leggings commercial this weekend?

I did not, but I have the episode taped.  Something more to look forward to!

ShesSoCold

holyguacamole79 said:

ShesSoCold said:

holyguacamole79 said:

I agree that the term "lady like" is inappropriate & I will refrain from using that in any discussions about this.  

I was thinking about this last night .... "distracted" isn't the best word.  I think "noticeable" is more accurate.  It's not like I have to stop my lesson and say something.  I notice it and keep going.

You're missing the point, though. It's not (completely) the words you're using, it's that you think it's okay to tell them how they "should feel". It's the whole idea. It's the fact that you're projecting your opinions onto your students. How people (children!) sit is and should be irrelevant to you as a teacher, unless they're blocking aisles or are actually exposing themselves.

Fair enough.  FWIW, I don't consider high schoolers to be "children".  They complain often that they're not taken seriously and that they want to be treated more like adults.  

I think I said this before, but I've said this once to a student.  And it was a student that I know well and knew that she would receive the comment charitably (which she did).  There seems to be a perception that this is something that is consuming me.  99% of the time, if I notice something like that, I keep walking.  

I feel like you're intentionally avoiding the point. I know you're not stupid. You keep focusing on one word of my responses to you, not the actual point. No one thinks you're awake at night thinking about students sitting a certain way.

I don't understand why you opened this discussion or brought up how "distracted" you are by students sitting since you're obviously not open to discussing it.
Not once have you responded to our comments that YOUR OPINION on how ANY PERSON "should" feel is crap.

holyguacamole79

ShesSoCold said:

holyguacamole79 said:

ShesSoCold said:

holyguacamole79 said:

I agree that the term "lady like" is inappropriate & I will refrain from using that in any discussions about this.  

I was thinking about this last night .... "distracted" isn't the best word.  I think "noticeable" is more accurate.  It's not like I have to stop my lesson and say something.  I notice it and keep going.

You're missing the point, though. It's not (completely) the words you're using, it's that you think it's okay to tell them how they "should feel". It's the whole idea. It's the fact that you're projecting your opinions onto your students. How people (children!) sit is and should be irrelevant to you as a teacher, unless they're blocking aisles or are actually exposing themselves.

Fair enough.  FWIW, I don't consider high schoolers to be "children".  They complain often that they're not taken seriously and that they want to be treated more like adults.  

I think I said this before, but I've said this once to a student.  And it was a student that I know well and knew that she would receive the comment charitably (which she did).  There seems to be a perception that this is something that is consuming me.  99% of the time, if I notice something like that, I keep walking.  

I feel like you're intentionally avoiding the point. I know you're not stupid. You keep focusing on one word of my responses to you, not the actual point. No one thinks you're awake at night thinking about students sitting a certain way.

I don't understand why you opened this discussion or brought up how "distracted" you are by students sitting since you're obviously not open to discussing it.
Not once have you responded to our comments that YOUR OPINION on how ANY PERSON "should" feel is crap.

Okay, my opinion is crap.  Got it.  I disagree with you.

There's your response.

ShesSoCold

holyguacamole79 said:

ShesSoCold said:

holyguacamole79 said:

ShesSoCold said:

holyguacamole79 said:

I agree that the term "lady like" is inappropriate & I will refrain from using that in any discussions about this.  

I was thinking about this last night .... "distracted" isn't the best word.  I think "noticeable" is more accurate.  It's not like I have to stop my lesson and say something.  I notice it and keep going.

You're missing the point, though. It's not (completely) the words you're using, it's that you think it's okay to tell them how they "should feel". It's the whole idea. It's the fact that you're projecting your opinions onto your students. How people (children!) sit is and should be irrelevant to you as a teacher, unless they're blocking aisles or are actually exposing themselves.

Fair enough.  FWIW, I don't consider high schoolers to be "children".  They complain often that they're not taken seriously and that they want to be treated more like adults.  

I think I said this before, but I've said this once to a student.  And it was a student that I know well and knew that she would receive the comment charitably (which she did).  There seems to be a perception that this is something that is consuming me.  99% of the time, if I notice something like that, I keep walking.  

I feel like you're intentionally avoiding the point. I know you're not stupid. You keep focusing on one word of my responses to you, not the actual point. No one thinks you're awake at night thinking about students sitting a certain way.

I don't understand why you opened this discussion or brought up how "distracted" you are by students sitting since you're obviously not open to discussing it.
Not once have you responded to our comments that YOUR OPINION on how ANY PERSON "should" feel is crap.

Okay, my opinion is crap.  Got it.  I disagree with you.

There's your response.

ei34

I absolutely think there should be more on budgeting, filing taxes, among other life skills, in the high school curriculum.  I impart “life tips” to my students as needed.  Things like “don’t be so quick to judge” and “try and walk in his/her shoes for a moment” when they’re mad at someone.  I talk about the importance of eye contact, speaking with confidence, body language and non-verbal cues, tone.  And I’m constantly letting students know that their language (refer to my first post on this thread) is inappropriate in public.  But I’ve never commented on a seated position that wasn’t effecting anyone else...or anything about clothing choice (since they were a uniform).  

PrettyGirlLost

holyguacamole79 said:

I agree that the term "lady like" is inappropriate & I will refrain from using that in any discussions about this.  

I was thinking about this last night .... "distracted" isn't the best word.  I think "noticeable" is more accurate.  It's not like I have to stop my lesson and say something.  I notice it and keep going.

Huh, imagine that.  Guess what?  That's exactly what we should be teaching teen boys- how to look respectfully and not leer.

Rather than framing everything around girls not "distracting" boys- screw that gendered, old world, misogynistic crap- how about we, as in society, teach kids about respectful sexuality?

Teenagers, boys and girls, are raging with hormones, they're gonna be horny, and they are going to check each other out and try to attract each other.  That's all perfectly normal and natural; It's not some shameful, taboo thing.

So teach them all about respect and consent and how to act accordingly.

Okay, so you can see one of your classmates nipples through her polo.  Rather than trying to shame her, or making her slap on bandaids, you teach the boys it's like looking at the sun and you don't fucking stare.  You teach girls that rolling their skirts so that their asses are hanging out at school is not appropriate, not because of any sort of slut shaming but bc it's not appropriate to have your ass hanging out in school or in the office unless you're on the toilet.

PrettyGirlLost

holyguacamole79 said:

ShesSoCold said:

holyguacamole79 said:

ShesSoCold said:

holyguacamole79 said:

I agree that the term "lady like" is inappropriate & I will refrain from using that in any discussions about this.  

I was thinking about this last night .... "distracted" isn't the best word.  I think "noticeable" is more accurate.  It's not like I have to stop my lesson and say something.  I notice it and keep going.

You're missing the point, though. It's not (completely) the words you're using, it's that you think it's okay to tell them how they "should feel". It's the whole idea. It's the fact that you're projecting your opinions onto your students. How people (children!) sit is and should be irrelevant to you as a teacher, unless they're blocking aisles or are actually exposing themselves.

Fair enough.  FWIW, I don't consider high schoolers to be "children".  They complain often that they're not taken seriously and that they want to be treated more like adults.  

I think I said this before, but I've said this once to a student.  And it was a student that I know well and knew that she would receive the comment charitably (which she did).  There seems to be a perception that this is something that is consuming me.  99% of the time, if I notice something like that, I keep walking.  

I feel like you're intentionally avoiding the point. I know you're not stupid. You keep focusing on one word of my responses to you, not the actual point. No one thinks you're awake at night thinking about students sitting a certain way.

I don't understand why you opened this discussion or brought up how "distracted" you are by students sitting since you're obviously not open to discussing it.
Not once have you responded to our comments that YOUR OPINION on how ANY PERSON "should" feel is crap.

Okay, my opinion is crap.  Got it.  I disagree with you.

There's your response.

Do you feel the need to comment on the boys for manspreading and slouching?  Why not?  Why isn't it just as important that they learn to carry themselves like dignified gentlemen?

What is the core issue with girls "manspreading"?  Is it because they are wearing skirts and one might catch a shot of their crotches? If they were wearing pants and manspreading would you have an issue?

knottie6fe2cc5434160aa2

Haven't worn a bra in years and won't ever again. Any workplace that brings it up to me will get an HR complaint - legally, workplaces can not dictate that men and women wear different things. If they were to require me to wear a bra, they would also have to require all the male employees to wear one as well.

holyguacamole79

@PrettyGirlLost I'm at an all girls school.

PrettyGirlLost

holyguacamole79 said:

@PrettyGirlLost I'm at an all girls school.

Ok, that's irrelevant. Pretend you are in a mixed gender school.

mrsconn23

So, I thought of this post as I ran up my stairs today to find a sweater because I was cold and I could see my nips through 2 layers and a padded bra in my full-length mirror a the top of the stairs...and FWIW (with a side of TMI), I don't have large, protruding nipples or anything.  

PrettyGirlLost

mrsconn23 said: 

So, I thought of this post as I ran up my stairs today to find a sweater because I was cold and I could see my nips through 2 layers and a padded bra in my full-length mirror a the top of the stairs...and FWIW (with a side of TMI), I don't have large, protruding nipples or anything.  

Lol how does that even happen?!

mrsconn23

PrettyGirlLost said:

mrsconn23 said: 

So, I thought of this post as I ran up my stairs today to find a sweater because I was cold and I could see my nips through 2 layers and a padded bra in my full-length mirror a the top of the stairs...and FWIW (with a side of TMI), I don't have large, protruding nipples or anything.  

Lol how does that even happen?!

IDK!  I was wondering the same thing.  I mean, the layers were formfitting and there isn't *that* much pad to the bra, but still...it's a lot to go through.   

STARMOON44

PrettyGirlLost said:

mrsconn23 said: 

So, I thought of this post as I ran up my stairs today to find a sweater because I was cold and I could see my nips through 2 layers and a padded bra in my full-length mirror a the top of the stairs...and FWIW (with a side of TMI), I don't have large, protruding nipples or anything.  

Lol how does that even happen?!

Happens to me all the time? Bra, camisole, blouse. Still visible. 

climbingsingle

STARMOON44 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

mrsconn23 said: 

So, I thought of this post as I ran up my stairs today to find a sweater because I was cold and I could see my nips through 2 layers and a padded bra in my full-length mirror a the top of the stairs...and FWIW (with a side of TMI), I don't have large, protruding nipples or anything.  

Lol how does that even happen?!

Happens to me all the time? Bra, camisole, blouse. Still visible. 

Happens to me too. Sometimes they're just hellbent on being seen! But I guess we should cover up and be ashamed of our bodies and be more ladylike. 

STARMOON44

climbingwife said:

STARMOON44 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

mrsconn23 said: 

So, I thought of this post as I ran up my stairs today to find a sweater because I was cold and I could see my nips through 2 layers and a padded bra in my full-length mirror a the top of the stairs...and FWIW (with a side of TMI), I don't have large, protruding nipples or anything.  

Lol how does that even happen?!

Happens to me all the time? Bra, camisole, blouse. Still visible. 

Happens to me too. Sometimes they're just hellbent on being seen! But I guess we should cover up and be ashamed of our bodies and be more ladylike. 

I think that’s part of why this bugs me so much. If you can see my nips, be a polite person and ignore them. That’s what we should be teaching our kids to do. Distracted by Jenny’s leggings? Maybe you should pay more attention to your school work. 

climbingsingle

STARMOON44 said:

climbingwife said:

STARMOON44 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

mrsconn23 said: 

So, I thought of this post as I ran up my stairs today to find a sweater because I was cold and I could see my nips through 2 layers and a padded bra in my full-length mirror a the top of the stairs...and FWIW (with a side of TMI), I don't have large, protruding nipples or anything.  

Lol how does that even happen?!

Happens to me all the time? Bra, camisole, blouse. Still visible. 

Happens to me too. Sometimes they're just hellbent on being seen! But I guess we should cover up and be ashamed of our bodies and be more ladylike. 

I think that’s part of why this bugs me so much. If you can see my nips, be a polite person and ignore them. That’s what we should be teaching our kids to do. Distracted by Jenny’s leggings? Maybe you should pay more attention to your school work. 

I agree 100%. 

kimmiinthemitten

STARMOON44 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

mrsconn23 said: 

So, I thought of this post as I ran up my stairs today to find a sweater because I was cold and I could see my nips through 2 layers and a padded bra in my full-length mirror a the top of the stairs...and FWIW (with a side of TMI), I don't have large, protruding nipples or anything.  

Lol how does that even happen?!

Happens to me all the time? Bra, camisole, blouse. Still visible. 

That's H - and he wears a lot of dry fits so he's totally the teacher nipping out in the spring.

I'm the opposite - never had it happen until I was healing from my reduction.

Ironically, this week a FB friend has been posting about her daughters middle school teacher who doesn't wear underwear and sits on her desk.  She has emailed complaints that went ignored - and never got a response until she went public with it.  She never mentioned names, but somehow other parents knew exactly

ellamber

kimmiinthemitten said:

STARMOON44 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

mrsconn23 said: 

So, I thought of this post as I ran up my stairs today to find a sweater because I was cold and I could see my nips through 2 layers and a padded bra in my full-length mirror a the top of the stairs...and FWIW (with a side of TMI), I don't have large, protruding nipples or anything.  

Lol how does that even happen?!

Happens to me all the time? Bra, camisole, blouse. Still visible. 

That's H - and he wears a lot of dry fits so he's totally the teacher nipping out in the spring.

I'm the opposite - never had it happen until I was healing from my reduction.

Ironically, this week a FB friend has been posting about her daughters middle school teacher who doesn't wear underwear and sits on her desk.  She has emailed complaints that went ignored - and never got a response until she went public with it.  She never mentioned names, but somehow other parents knew exactly








I had a HS teacher (male) who never wore underwear w/his dress pants and constantly put his leg up on empty seats while teaching (captain morgan style). it was so gross, and so noticeable. Somehow I still was able to learn and graduate high school though.