Vent about Sh!t Talking in Law School

loves2shop4shoes

So yesterday was a gem of a day.  It called for a martini at 4:30pm.  The issue?  Law students are pricks...and it's driving me bananas.  I'm a very direct, honest person and unfortunately for me, I've never had the luxury of energy for bullsh!tting in my life.  Well the other day, a classmate made this rude comment about how "feminism caused the death of chivalry", so i replied "and with comments like these, it's no wonder you don't have women swooning over you."  Direct, honest, and just the "eff you" I thought was appropriate.

So yesterday after class, said classmate accosted me and was like "you really offended me with your comment yesterday.  You use your gender as an advantage because if I'd said that to you, it would've been sexual harassment.  As it is, what you said is borderline sexual harassment and I may go to the dean."

Then he and i argued for almost 2 hours, during which I told him that my comment was in no way sexual harassment and he should be careful not to make such serious accusations so wantonly.  During our little debate, he also told me that I'm naive, arrogant, and unprofessional.

After he finally let me leave, I was all shaken up and felt emotionally violated, but I went about my day.

So last night before bed, I was IMing with another section-mate and this situation with my other classmate came up.  She then started telling me that people in my section are saying that I'm arrogant and condescending and that I frequently talk about how much smarter I am than everyone else.  Apparently, I also make condescending facial expressions when people say things that are totally wrong in class.  1) I think there are a lot of smart people in our section.  2) The only people who would know what I "frequently discuss" are my law school friends, who wouldn't say something that was untrue.

I just got a double header of law school BS yesterday and I just feel hurt by it all.  I'm not arrogant; I'm confident in my own abilities.  I don't give a rat's a$$ how anyone else does, so long as I do well.

Only upside of yesterday was that FI and I toured our venue.  It's gorgeous!

redheadfsu

Sorry you had a bad day. Law school was/is/ and always will be very highschoolish. Try not to let it get to you.

Hazel_B

In my experience not all lawyers grow out of that after law school either.

I know it is crap to deal with, but try to figure out some benefit that'll help to get you through.

noelle24

This seems to fit right in with the stories I've heard from my lawyer friends about law school.  At least you know to ignore that "chivalry is dead" ass.

Just keep your chin-up and keep doing your thing.  There are some normal people in law school, you just have to dig a little. 

CWill16

See, I was under the impression that all this ended after high school, but every small group setting I have ever been in situations kinds like this have risen.

Your classmate is probably just really insecure. If he doesn't like feminism he probably doesn't like women "talking back" or "questioning" him.

nottheonlydreamer44

Oh Cath, I should have warned you! This is all I have ever heard from my Law School friends. Let them talk and you keep on being the smart-ass, direct, awesome person you are. Don't let some immature bitches get you down. Although, I agree with the martini.

If you need to talk PM me! ***hugs****

catemeg

Oh, yeah.  Not surprised, but sorry you went through it!

Let me guess, Torts is a first semester course?  Be prepared for everyone to talk about suing and harassment and negligence and all sorts of crap.  They go into all these dumb hypotheticals about who could sue who or for what.  BF and I had a long discussion last year about how I really hated that talk as I'm not a litigious person and hate the culture of "sue if you think you can win" rather than when someone's legitimately harmed.

Don't engaged in debates with people about sh*t like this - law students love to argue, which is why most of them joined law school in the first place.  And a lot of them have huge egos and love to be right, so they'll try to talk you into a corner just to feel good about themselves.  Seriously, the best thing you can do is have a sense of humor and not allow yourself to be baited into discussion.  "Well, you're entitled to your opinion" is usually a good conversation ender so long as you leave it there - don't make it about who's "right" and who's "wrong". Shrug, smile, and say, "I'm sorry you took it that way."  And leave it at that.  The deans don't have time for his bullsh*t either.

calindi

(Ugh... posted on my old SN by accident)

Oh, yeah.  Not surprised, but sorry you went through it!

Let me guess, Torts is a first semester course?  Be prepared for everyone to talk about suing and harassment and negligence and all sorts of crap.  They go into all these dumb hypotheticals about who could sue who or for what.  BF and I had a long discussion last year about how I really hated that talk as I'm not a litigious person and hate the culture of "sue if you think you can win" rather than when someone's legitimately harmed.

Don't engaged in debates with people about sh*t like this - law students love to argue, which is why most of them joined law school in the first place.  And a lot of them have huge egos and love to be right, so they'll try to talk you into a corner just to feel good about themselves.  Seriously, the best thing you can do is have a sense of humor and not allow yourself to be baited into discussion.  "Well, you're entitled to your opinion" is usually a good conversation ender so long as you leave it there - don't make it about who's "right" and who's "wrong". Shrug, smile, and say, "I'm sorry you took it that way."  And leave it at that.  The deans don't have time for his bullsh*t either.

notquiteblushing

Oh man law school sucks.

But....did you say that comment in class?  Because that would be a little embarrassing.

Also, don't be that chick who talks a lot in class.  EVERYONE hates gunners.

motoLyn

I say that the way that guy held you up and accosted you plain sucks.  But if I heard you say that comment in class I would raise my eye brows.  It comes off a bit condecending.  I know you're a straigh forward and non BS person, some people just can't handle that.  That day is over, and the weekend is upon us, enjoy the sunshine and congrats on touring your venue. 

jenna.linder

My problem with what you said is that I fail to see how your comment adds to the class discussion, or even responds to what that kid said.  I don't think it's surprising that people gave you the side-eye.  That is an aggressive/ juvenile thing to say to someone who was expressing an opinion you didn't agree with.

KatyRoseM

I agree that it doesn't add to class discussion, and it may have been a bit of a personal attack, which might not be necessary.  That being said, weather it was unprofessional or uncalled for might depend on things like tone or other interactions.  I can see a tone in which his comment would not be objectionable, and know many feminists who say the same thing, at the same time there are ways of saying it that are horrible. 

All that said I would recommend staying away from personal attacks, it hurts your argument and just isn't nice. 

bsidebella

Wow. Who knew that "Legally Blonde" would be based on stone-cold fact? Shoes, I am so sorry that you had to deal with that. That is a terrible, awkward situation. 

Man, and I thought Creative Writing majors were catty! They can get super defensive and they just looove to voice their own opinions. I was a writing minor in college and I was accosted not once but twice by a fellow classmate who tried tell me why a story I'd written didn't work and here's how HE would have done it, and made some suggestions I really did not feel comfortable with. He ended up ranting to me for about 10 minutes (all the while following me across campus to my next class). I said, "Thanks for your opinion, but that's not what I want to do." He said, "F-- you! I'm trying to give you advice and all you can say is 'thank you'?" 

-facepalm- I thought high school ended years ago. 

loves2shop4shoes

Hold the phone guys!  I did not say this in front of the whole class.  He said this in front of my row of friends and I replied there.  The professor and whole class did not hear it.

motoLyn

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_vent-sht-talking-law-school?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:9d6d6665-204d-439c-b4a6-d317d2a483e9Post:b1e591ed-2f26-4892-8081-b59244eac41a">Re: Vent about Sh!t Talking in Law School</a>:
[QUOTE]Hold the phone guys!  I did not say this in front of the whole class.  He said this in front of my row of friends and I replied there.  The professor and whole class did not hear it.
Posted by loves2shop4shoes[/QUOTE]


My apologies then, I can definitely see how he be steamed about it, you hurt his manhood and his self esteem (sarcasm).  Its peoples percived perceptions.  If others who you don't know and don't care about, are thinking that your an arrogant person, that's their problem.  You know who you are, your friends know who you are and that's all that matters.  I think in the future if a guy or anyone tries to hold you up to debate with you when you don't want to.  Excuse yourself andf leave, its hostile and volitile to your mind and state.  If they won't let you go, stare them straight in the eye and tell you are leaving and that's not open to debate.

jenna.linder

Oh thank heavens.  I take back my comments. 

I'm a 3L and (mostly) everyone has completely chilled out by now.  1L year is definitely the worst since everyone's trying to size themselves up and because of the whole section thing.  I don't know what year you are, but I hope it gets better...

Congrats on the venue!

notquiteblushing

Oh ok.  Then just stay away from him.

My advice on not being a gunner still stands though.

calindi

Right, and don't believe that everyone you've met in the first few weeks of law school are your "friends" - there's an awful lot of crazy sh*t that goes down during 1L year, and it's likely your group will have changed a few times by the time you start 2L year.  While they're all still stressed, BF's group of friends now is a lot more sane and relaxed than everyone was last year.  Don't worry about making friends - just focus on your studies and don't make waves to attract attention to yourself.

desertsun

I don't think your comment was direct and honest. It was just mean and inappropriate, and he was right to call you on it. It would never have been acceptable in a professional setting.

Personal attacks are the fallback of those who are too lazy to come up with a good counterargument.

And your feeling of "emotional violation" is a huge load of bull. You clearly DO have plenty of time for it when it suits you.

bethsmiles

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_vent-sht-talking-law-school?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:9d6d6665-204d-439c-b4a6-d317d2a483e9Post:8497bf6e-8283-4de1-9912-c292cf02d926">Re: Vent about Sh!t Talking in Law School</a>:
[QUOTE]I don't think your comment was direct and honest. It was just mean and inappropriate, and he was right to call you on it. It would never have been acceptable in a professional setting. Personal attacks are the fallback of those who are too lazy to come up with a good counterargument. And your feeling of "emotional violation" is a huge load of bull. You clearly DO have plenty of time for it when it suits you.
Posted by desertsun[/QUOTE]

This. It wasn't appropriate and if people are saying that you make faces you probably are even if you don't realize it.

oceana919

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_vent-sht-talking-law-school?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:136Discussion:9d6d6665-204d-439c-b4a6-d317d2a483e9Post:8497bf6e-8283-4de1-9912-c292cf02d926">Re: Vent about Sh!t Talking in Law School</a>:
[QUOTE]I don't think your comment was direct and honest. It was just mean and inappropriate, and he was right to call you on it. It would never have been acceptable in a professional setting. <strong>Personal attacks are the fallback of those who are too lazy to come up with a good counterargument. </strong>And your feeling of "emotional violation" is a huge load of bull. You clearly DO have plenty of time for it when it suits you.
Posted by desertsun[/QUOTE]

THIS.

loves2shop4shoes

Ok...how is saying "feminism killed chivalry" to a group of women NOT a personal attack?

Without feminism I wouldn't be in law school.

calindi

I wasn't there, so I don't have an opinion on who was "right" and who was "wrong".

But I actually do believe that feminism has a great effect on traditional chivalry.  I have always been uncomfortable when guys treat me with kid gloves because I'm a woman.  In business settings, I wouldn't want men to stand up when I enter and leave a room but not for each other.  I wouldn't want them to pull out my chair, or open doors for me.  I'm not saying that's a bad thing, and maybe he wasn't either?  Simply that the equalization of women, both in society and in the workforce, has resulted in chivalrous actions being viewed as condescending.

Thus I don't believe that's a personal attack.

heyimbren

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_vent-sht-talking-law-school?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:136Discussion:9d6d6665-204d-439c-b4a6-d317d2a483e9Post:78fadf79-0b23-4f0d-8404-e7f23822f236">Re: Vent about Sh!t Talking in Law School</a>:
[QUOTE]Sorry you had a bad day. Law school was/is/ and always will be very highschoolish. Try not to let it get to you.
Posted by redheadfsu[/QUOTE]

That's exactly what my uncle's complaint was about law school. He mostly kept to himself, because he couldn't stand most of the other students and all the cliques. He did make some good friends in law school, and the few of them just stuck together for it.

Loves2shop, I don't see how any comments made really had any place to be said.

desertsun

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_vent-sht-talking-law-school?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:9d6d6665-204d-439c-b4a6-d317d2a483e9Post:be3516f2-63cf-4e2d-8c80-5028d912594d">Re: Vent about Sh!t Talking in Law School</a>:
[QUOTE]Ok...how is saying "feminism killed chivalry" to a group of women NOT a personal attack? Without feminism I wouldn't be in law school.
Posted by loves2shop4shoes[/QUOTE]

A) That would be an opinion. YOU are not personally responsible. It might be an opinion that's offensive to you, but it's still just an opinion.

B)<strong> IF</strong> he had attacked you on a personal level, that STILL would not make your personal attack okay. Two wrongs don't make a right.

jeanacorina

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_vent-sht-talking-law-school?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:9d6d6665-204d-439c-b4a6-d317d2a483e9Post:be3516f2-63cf-4e2d-8c80-5028d912594d">Re: Vent about Sh!t Talking in Law School</a>:
[QUOTE]Without feminism I wouldn't be in law school.
Posted by loves2shop4shoes[/QUOTE]

Why didn't you respond with that instead? It's much less volatile and actually points out something the person may not have considered before speaking. It contributes to a conversation instead of attempting to shut the other person down with an insult. Meeting a (presumed) personal attack with another personal attack is not very mature.

desertsun

That said, I am sorry you had a rough day, and I'm glad you're happy with your venue.  Have you shown us pics or a link?

CWill16

In the heat of the moment I probably would have said something similar.

But don't you hate when you say something and later think of a better comeback? I think Jeana's suggestion was a great one, but in the moment I would never think of it. Typically in confrontation there are two sides to the story and both people react poorly.

But like I said, I probably would have done the same.

Goldlie11

I have to agree with desert that you seem to be in the wrong.  Even if just a few people overheard, that's embarrassing.  He was expressing his opinion on a pretty general topic.  You attacked him personally.  I think that you really should apologize to him.  

As for the other situation, I would do 2 things.  One, I would think honestly if there is any truth to what people may be saying.  Two, once I figured out how true it is, I'd pretty much ignore it.  You can't change the way that people think, so don't bother.  

loves2shop4shoes

I do think I could've responded differently.  I was just so offended by the comment that it was the first thing that came out of my mouth.  I'm was also offended by his nonsense claim that the comment was "borderline sexual harassment".  It was not.  I have unfortunately dealt with sexual harassment and sexual assault before and to say that my comment was sexual harassment was a serious stretch.

As for the reception venue, here's a link.

http://resources.elegala.com/venues/464-trustee-ballroom-at-boston-university

It's really gorgeous.  The balcony is perfect for cocktail hour.

calindi

My Mom's cousin got married there - it was a beautiful wedding!  You both chose very well!  Did you put down the deposit?