living together before...

starlite21l

My FI and I live together.  We are having our first meeting with the priest this Sat. and we were warned by someone that we cannot live together before marriage.  I am aware that traditionally you are not supposed to live together but in these financial times it was the best decision for us.  Is this going to be a problem when talking to the priest?

snwilson0416

I think it depends on the priest but for the most part I doubt it will be a problem. We told our priest we were living together and he didn't even bat an eye. 

mswood1977

It depends on the priest.  Some have a bigger problem with it than others and all of them will probably ask that at the very least you live like brother and sister until the wedding.  We took a don't ask don't tell policy with our priest, he never asked if we lived together and we never volunteered the information, however, if he had asked we would have told him the truth.

Calypso1977

well, there is living together as husband and wife and living together as roommates. 

some priests will nto marry you if you are living together as husband and wife.  tehy may ask one of you to move out.  some will want to rectify the sin by marrying you and "righting" the situation.  it all depends.

just be honest and answer his questions and dont hide anything.

if you are living as husband and wife, i highly recommend trying to live as roommates, even if he doesnt ask you to do this.   we made thsi decision when we moved in together (had a chance to buy a house, about 6 months before the wedding), and it was the best decision.  it allowed us to fully prepare for our sacrament and reflect on many things.

boogerbearoriginal

We did and we were honest with the Priest about the situation. We brought it up withouth him asking, and he simply said well we need to get you guys married then.

It really depends on the Priest but I strongly urge you to be honest with him. IMO lying by ommission, giving 'fake' addresses, etc. is not a good way to begin a relationship as husband/wife nevermind how that will impact your relationship with the Priest should he find out you lied. 

mica178

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_living-together-before?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:266ae0f6-48e1-4c42-98ee-0e85190d181dPost:f82bf3d9-2d7a-42d8-8e3a-00f262265aed">Re: living together before...</a>:
[QUOTE]We did and we were honest with the Priest about the situation. We brought it up withouth him asking, and he simply said well we need to get you guys married then. It really depends on the Priest but I strongly urge you to be honest with him. IMO lying by ommission, giving 'fake' addresses, etc. is not a good way to begin a relationship as husband/wife nevermind how that will impact your relationship with the Priest should he find out you lied. 
Posted by Booger+Bear[/QUOTE]

This.  Honesty is the best policy.  Why enter a Sacrament with a lie on your conscience?

dwest2201

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_living-together-before?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:266ae0f6-48e1-4c42-98ee-0e85190d181dPost:49d056c1-38e2-45e9-9f61-8e3a2c64e618">Re: living together before...</a>:
[QUOTE]I think it depends on the priest but for the most part I doubt it will be a problem. We told our priest we were living together and he didn't even bat an eye. 
Posted by snwilson0416[/QUOTE]

This has been our experience as well.  At our first meeting with our priest I was very nervous about it (I was divorced, non-Catholic and living with my FI) but he didn't bat an eye.

I'm just becoming Catholic, but have always been religious (non-denominational)... I could never imagine telling a lie to a member of the church, let alone receiving a sacrament for something that I had lied or omitted the truth about.

[Deleted User]

Yup, just tell the truth. H and I also lived together before marriage, but it was also for financial reasons. We had our own seperate bedrooms and bathroom that was seperated by a living room and dining room. Basically, our priest just asked us to make good decisions and not engage in sexual activity before marriage.

GulfCoaster

As Calypso said, there's living together as roommates and there's living together as husband and wife.  Most priests will ask some questions re: living together, though it will bother some priests more than others.  But please don't lie to your priest -- why enter the Sacrament of marriage with a lie on your conscience?

We actually had a long discussion about living together on this board about a month ago.  Take a look if you're interested:  http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_cohabitating-before-marriage

ellen73

If you live together, so be it.  But I personally wouldn't use "these financial times" as an excuse for living together. There are always other alternatives.  It sounds like you are trying to justify it.  

Enchanted616

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_living-together-before?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:266ae0f6-48e1-4c42-98ee-0e85190d181dPost:9957d99e-e644-4e77-aa76-1a598fc2acf8">Re: living together before...</a>:
[QUOTE]If you live together, so be it.  But I personally wouldn't use "these financial times" as an excuse for living together. There are always other alternatives.  It sounds like you are trying to justify it.  
Posted by ellen73[/QUOTE]

You must be lucky enough to either be quite financially stable or have a wonderful support system that would be able to help you if for some reason you lost that stability.  Not everyone is that lucky, and there are not always other alternatives.

eshaufle

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_living-together-before?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:266ae0f6-48e1-4c42-98ee-0e85190d181dPost:5f61682b-35ba-43e1-a7bd-544adc9a37ac">Re: living together before...</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: living together before... : You must be lucky enough to either be quite financially stable or have a wonderful support system that would be able to help you if for some reason you lost that stability.  Not everyone is that lucky, and there are not always other alternatives.
Posted by Enchanted616[/QUOTE]

Agreed.  Living on your own is very expensive.  I was lucky enough to have moved to a city after graduation where I had plenty of friends to be roommates with to save money.

If someone moves to a city and really doesn't have a ton of people they know in the area to live with besides their SO then I think financial reasons is a great reason to move in together.  I fail to see the alternative in that situation unless you can a) afford to live on your own or b) have parents that will pay for everything.  Not everyone has those luxuries starting out. 

EDIT:  I also have some friends that were dating each other that moved in together for technically financial reasons because they were spending so much money on their individual apartments but were always spending their time at either one or the other's place.  It seemed logical to me where they were coming from.  You can save a lot of money by being able to split those costs with another.

Calypso1977

i disagree.

IMO, if you are going to make a major move to a new city or state to be with a SO, that SO better already be your fiance and you better be already planning a wedding.  to make a major move without a formal committment in place is just ludicrous. 

i also think folks shouldnt move to a place where they dont have a job lined up already, and where they havent researched what average incomes and and what average home/apartment prices are.

i moved to Boston on my own when i was 25.  i didnt know a soul there.  i did my research then decided it was doable.  so i got a job BEFORE i moved, then found an apartment that fit my budget.

and this scenario...
I also have some friends that were dating each other that moved in together for technically financial reasons because they were spending so much money on their individual apartments but were always spending their time at either one or the other's place. 

makes no sense unless they one person was sleeping on the couch and the other in the bedroom.  its the act of sex (among other things) that makes living together wrong.  we all know you can have sex outside of marriage whether you live together or not.  and clearly those two people could afford their respective apartments.  so yes, it might have been viewed as a "waste of money" to pay two rents, but a waste of money is not the same as "financial necessity".

living on your own can be expensive, but you can always get a roommate or live at home longer (if you parents let you).  i find it hard to believe that moving in with your SO is the ONLY choice. 

i also think its important, ESPECIALLY for women, to know that you can be self supporting.  i personally woudl never want to be completely financially dependent on a man.

mica178

I agree with Calypso.

Until I could afford to live on my own, I had roommates.  I would never use financial reasons to justify living with a boyfriend.  Yes, it might be financially convenient, but there are always other options.

As Catholics, we are not supposed to be practicing pre-marital sex or cohabitation outside of marriage (roommates are a different story, but when you're living with your boyfriend, you're essential practicing common-law marriage outside of the Sacrament of marriage).  Some people do, but it is outside of what the church recommends.

eshaufle

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_living-together-before?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:266ae0f6-48e1-4c42-98ee-0e85190d181dPost:64665d1a-4a45-46a0-83e0-048750d25a60">Re: living together before...</a>:
[QUOTE]i disagree. IMO, if you are going to make a major move to a new city or state to be with a SO, that SO better already be your fiance and you better be already planning a wedding.  to make a major move without a formal committment in place is just ludicrous. 

<strong>No one said anyone was moving to a city to be with a SO if they weren't engaged.  They could be engaged for all I know.
</strong>
i also think folks shouldnt move to a place where they dont have a job lined up already, and where they havent researched what average incomes and and what average home/apartment prices are. i moved to Boston on my own when i was 25.  i didnt know a soul there.  i did my research then decided it was doable.  so i got a job BEFORE i moved, then found an apartment that fit my budget.

<strong>Everyone I know who has moved to be near a SO/FI certainly had a job already.  I'm not saying that's the case for everyone but I do think that's the smarter way to approach things in general.  I wasn't implying that it was ok to move somewhere to be with any ol' bf/gf without having a job first.  To me, it just seems logical to not move to a place without having a job first.  However, just because someone has a good job doesn't mean they want to waste money living alone and paying for an apartment by themselves.
</strong>
<strong>I have a job in where I could easily afford to live by myself.  But when I think of how much money I'd be wasting doing that versus having roommates and sharing that cost with others it just doesn't make sense to me.  So yeah, if you moved to a city and had a job or were going to school there then I think it's still justified for financial reasons to have a roommate even if that roommate ends up being your FI or SO.
</strong>
this scenario... I also have some friends that were dating each other that moved in together for technically financial reasons because they were spending so much money on their individual apartments but were always spending their time at either one or the other's place.   makes no sense unless they one person was sleeping on the couch and the other in the bedroom.  its the act of sex (among other things) that makes living together wrong.  we all know you can have sex outside of marriage whether you live together or not.  and clearly those two people could afford their respective apartments.  so yes, it might have been viewed as a "waste of money" to pay two rents, but a waste of money is not the same as "financial necessity".
 
<strong>Last time I checked, you can sleep in the same bed with someone and not do anything sexual.  I don't know what the situation was with these people and didn't care to know.  It's there business.  But if you're going to be doing something anyways then why waste the money at all?  I didn't say it was a financial necessity but it certainly is a financial reason...in one scenario you're wasting $1,000 + a month and in the other scenario you're not.  Sounds valid to me but I'm a finance person and I usually go with the most financially logical option regardless.  Whether it's a necessity or not.

Also, you can have separate rooms (like the PP said).  It's a roommate scenario.  So if you want to spend a significant chunk of your free time with someone then why not be their roommate??  It sure beats paying for 2 one-bedroom apartments.

 </strong>living on your own can be expensive, but you can always get a roommate or live at home longer (if you parents let you).  i find it hard to believe that moving in with your SO is the ONLY choice.  i also think its important, ESPECIALLY for women, to know that you can be self supporting.  i personally woudl never want to be completely financially dependent on a man.

<strong>See above explanations on why you may not have friends (aka roommates) in the area or parents...like moving to a new city (with a job).  I'd prefer to live with my SO then someone I find on craigslist (especially now lol).
</strong>
<strong>Also, this is definitely not about being financially independent from your guy.  No one said they moved in because they by themselves couldn't afford it.  They just said it was best financially for both of them.  I think it's old-fashioned to assume that just because you're moving in together or married, it automatically means that one is dependent on the other.</strong>
Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]

eshaufle

Side note:  I have nothing against the traditional view of not living together before marriage.  I'm not living with my FI until like right before our wedding when both of our leases expire in the city conveniently a couple of weeks before.  IWecould have but there was a traditional part of me that just wanted to not go that route.

But I also understand why other people do choose to live together and I don't really need to know what their reasonings are.  I think financial reasons are usually justified for reasons that have been previously mentioned but I don't really like to look of it as justification.  Don't justify it to me, I'm not going to judge you.

And to the OP - I don't care why you are living together or whether you have a "justified" reason or not.  Just be honest with your priest.  Our first meeting our priest was very nice and he was so welcoming and non-judgmental.  Have fun!!

cindy91788

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_living-together-before?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:266ae0f6-48e1-4c42-98ee-0e85190d181dPost:9957d99e-e644-4e77-aa76-1a598fc2acf8">Re: living together before...</a>:
[QUOTE]If you live together, so be it.  But I personally wouldn't use "these financial times" as an excuse for living together. There are always other alternatives.  It sounds like you are trying to justify it.  
Posted by ellen73[/QUOTE]
Wow, this is the craziest thing I've ever heard!
People live together before getting married for a million different reasons, and it is none of anybody's business except their own. There is no reason for you, or anybody else to force their beliefs upon other people, or JUDGE other people, or make assumptions about other people, just because the things they do aren't what YOU would do.
Everyone in this world is in a different situation, whether it is family, financial, whatever, and that effects everybody's lives differently, so you have no right to accuse people of trying to "justify" living together before marriage.

Personally, I have lived with my now fiance for almost 2 years. We initially began living together because we felt it was the next obvious step in our relationship, and we both agreed that we wanted to live together before getting married for  many reasons (which are none of anybody's business but our own, as  I said above). After about 6 months, we purchased a home together and have lived hear for about 18 months now. We did not get engaged until we had been living in that home for over 1 year.

We are both Catholics, and it is our PERSONAL CHOICE to do this.
As for what the Priest would think... when we met with our Priest we were 100% honest with him, and he did not seem to care one way or the other. He did not ask us to obstain from sex, or anything. Because it is not his place to judge. and if a priest told me what to do, or suggested what he THINKS we should do, then I wouldn't want that priest marrying me.

If you tell your Priest that you live together, and he in any way objects, or expresses concern - or tells you he doesn't approve of that, then I personally would not want that Priest to marry us. You should feel comfortable with the Priest marrying you - you shouldn't feel you need to lie to him, or omit details for fear of being judged.

GulfCoaster

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_living-together-before?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:266ae0f6-48e1-4c42-98ee-0e85190d181dPost:19880bbe-4bbc-4bf3-87ff-beaae9fd7fcc">Re: living together before...</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: living together before... : Wow, this is the craziest thing I've ever heard! People live together before getting married for a million different reasons, and it is none of anybody's business except their own. There is no reason for you, or anybody else to force their beliefs upon other people, or JUDGE other people, or make assumptions about other people, just because the things they do aren't what YOU would do. Everyone in this world is in a different situation, whether it is family, financial, whatever, and that effects everybody's lives differently, so you have no right to accuse people of trying to "justify" living together before marriage.
Posted by cindy91788[/QUOTE]

I don't think that anyone is being mean here.  But this is the Catholic board, and so quite a few of us here believe what the Church teaches -- that premarital sex is a sin.  To point this out is not judging someone.  (God alone judges souls.)  Rather, it is simply to witness to the truth.

One of the things we discussed in our prior thread on cohabitation, besides premarital sex, was the idea of scandal... We are responsible for the example we set for others.  And cohabitation, even cohabitation without sex, does set a bad example.  (Let's be honest -- even if a cohabitating couple isn't sleeping together, the vast majority of observers will assume that they are.)  Cohabitation cheapens the Church's witness in this world, and it cheapens an individual's witness in other areas.  (Catechism paragraphs 2284-6: <a href="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm#2284">http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm#2284</a>) 

Honestly, I've had several friends who <em>were</em> living and sleeping with their boyfriends/fiances, and told their parents or grandparents they were only doing it "to save money."  It was a way of making the situation more palatable to their very devout families, even though it was a lie.  And I'm sure others have known people who acted similarly...  So when they run into a couple who really is living together without being sexually active, they tend not to believe them and assume that they are lying. 

Do my experiences with my friends mean that everyone who says they're living together to save money is lying?  Of course not.  But if you've known people who used that lie -- and many of us have -- then it's hard not to look at "saving money" with a bit more scrutiny.  

The Bible tells us to avoid even the appearance of sin, which would suggest that even in financial necessity, living together should be a last resort.

cindy91788

how does cohabitating before marriage set a bad example?!?!?!
Actually, no, please don't answer that, because it will just be more religious babble that I don't feel like reading.
You say you aren't judging people, but in your next sentence you say that if someone is living with their SO and they are not married, you assume they are sleeping together and therefore they are sinners. How is that not judging?? You shouldn't be assuming or even thinking anybody is a sinner, other than yourself! Why would you or should you care what anybody else is doing with their lives? why don't you mind your own business?

GulfCoaster

Cindy91788,

I'd actually be happy to discuss the topic if you think you can do so without yelling at or insulting me.

If your issue is with premarital sex or cohabitation being a sin, then your issue is with the Church and not with me personally.

If you'd like to learn more about the idea of setting a bad example, read the paragraphs from the Catechism of the Catholic Church on scandal that I linked to above.  Scandal is considered a sin in its own right, separate and apart from premarital sex.

Stating that a certain action is a sin according to Church teaching is not "judging" someone.  Saying "you're going to hell" would be judging.  The second is not within any human's capability -- God alone judges souls, and neither I nor any other human should dare to.  There is nothing wrong with the first, however -- looking at actions and pointing out whether they are or aren't in accordance with Church teaching, and expressing concern.  There's a long, long history of this... All the Old Testament prophets, Jesus (criticizing numerous people's actions), St. Stephen, St. Peter and St. Paul (who criticized each other's actions at a couple of points in the NT), etc.... 

We are all sinners because we are human.  Part of the Church's job is to teach us about sin, and if we are sinning, to call us to change our actions.  If I'm running around setting a bad example for others or sinning publicly, it's part of the Church's job to call that to my attention.  Sometimes that may come from fellow laypeople (like in my prayer group or RCIA or other church ministries), and sometimes that may come from my spiritual advisor or my pastor.  (ETA:  And, just to be clear, on a few occasions a couple of my friends in the prayer group have called my attention to certain actions -- because they love me and care about my well-being.)   We're all on a journey to try to rid ourselves of sin.  I'll take any help along the way that I can get.


Edited to add:  My statements above don't have to do with whether the Church will marry a couple who is living together.  Most priests in the USA will marry couples who are living together, but many will express some concern about it (some moreso than others), because it is their job to teach.

Calypso1977

it most definitely is a priest's business if he he marrying you.  its also his business if he's hearing your confession.  its his job to guide you in the faith and let you know when you've gone astray.

when we approach marriage, we should be accepting that sacrament with as little sin on our souls as possible.  we ESPECIALLY should be as free from sin as possible before receiving communion.

for the record (and ive said this on other threads, but you might not be aware) i did live with my H for 6 months prior to our wedding.  we kept separate bedrooms and made an effort to be as chaste as possible.  i hated living together outside of marriage.  even when my H told some people about how we were living and the reason why, we got a lot of "yeah,  right, *wink wink*".  most folks know that i'm pretty religious and this absolutely sent a conflicting message.   everyone assumed we were having sex and sleeping in the same bed every night.   even though we knew and God knew, the perception was definitely there.

i felt our reasons were TRUE financial reasons.  we needed to secure a place to live so that once we were married we wouldnt have to live apart.  my H has a mileage requirement for his job - my apartment was outside of that radius.  his apartment was not suitable for us for a variety of reasons AND i would have had a much, much longer commute to work.   If we had the money, i would have kept my apartment or he woudl have kept his AND paid the mortgage until the wedding.  even though i felt these reasons were solid, they still were just another way to try to justify our less than perfect situation. 

i truly felt our only alternative would have been to take our chances that we'd find a house quickly after we got married.  But that still would have meant living separately until we found a place.  we didnt want to have to live apart as married, although that certainly would have been the better moral choice. 

boogerbearoriginal

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_living-together-before?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:266ae0f6-48e1-4c42-98ee-0e85190d181dPost:19880bbe-4bbc-4bf3-87ff-beaae9fd7fcc">Re: living together before...</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: living together before... : Wow, this is the craziest thing I've ever heard! People live together before getting married for a million different reasons, and it is none of anybody's business except their own. There is no reason for you, or anybody else to force their beliefs upon other people, or JUDGE other people, or make assumptions about other people, just because the things they do aren't what YOU would do. Everyone in this world is in a different situation, whether it is family, financial, whatever, and that effects everybody's lives differently, so you have no right to accuse people of trying to "justify" living together before marriage. Personally, I have lived with my now fiance for almost 2 years. We initially began living together because we felt it was the next obvious step in our relationship, and we both agreed that we wanted to live together before getting married for  many reasons (which are none of anybody's business but our own, as  I said above). After about 6 months, we purchased a home together and have lived hear for about 18 months now. We did not get engaged until we had been living in that home for over 1 year. We are both Catholics, and it is our PERSONAL CHOICE to do this. As for what the Priest would think... when we met with our Priest we were 100% honest with him, and he did not seem to care one way or the other. He did not ask us to obstain from sex, or anything. Because it is not his place to judge. and <span style="font-weight:bold;">if a priest told me what to do, or suggested what he THINKS we should do, then I wouldn't want that priest marrying me. </span>If you tell your Priest that you live together, and he in any way objects, or expresses concern - or tells you he doesn't approve of that, then I personally would not want that Priest to marry us. You should feel comfortable with the Priest marrying you - you shouldn't feel you need to lie to him, or omit details for fear of being judged.
Posted by cindy91788[/QUOTE]

Cindy - You are projecting your own feelings into this and clearly you feel the need to defend your living situation. No one was attacking anyone or making judgmental statements. In fact, many posters admitted to doing the same.

The OP specifically said that she and her FI were living together due to finances, that's why people mentioned it.  And you're failing to acknowledge that the church specifically teaches against living together before marriage. So while it may be a personal decision, we as Catholics are still expected to live according to the church's teachings.

Re: the bolded part. A Priest's job is to guide the people in his church, so to of course a Priest will tell people how to live their lives according to the church. And they will tell you what they think based on their years of religious study.

IMO you sound like you have many issues with the Catholic Church's teachings. That is something you may want to explore but the only person attacking people in this thread is you. 

eshaufle

I think the point that a couple of us are saying here is not that it's "mean" to point out if something is technically going against what the church says.  If you feel the need to point it out, fine.  The point is that when people say they lived together for such and such reasons (usually a common one is financial), it is not within anyone's right to say that is not a justifiable reason.  That sounds extremely judgmental.  Especially when someone says off-hand "it was for financial reaons".  You don't know the whole story so immediately writing it off as an unjustifiable reason and saying there are always alternatives is kind of ridiculous as an outsider.

I also think it the whole not living together because it sets a bad example or makes people assume things makes me rolls my eyes a bit.  I think that you are over-estimating how many people actually care what you're doing in your personal life.  A good majority of people will not care what religion you are, who you live with and why or any other personal activities.  People are not that old-fashioned anymore and the only people who would probably actually give people the side-eye for *gasp* being religious and having the audacity to co-habit before marriage are judgmental peple who are not with the times. 

People can live their lives as they please and we are not here to judge.  Pointing out a "fact" (however old-fashioned) is not wrong but being judgmental about people who have moved on to a new viewpoint of a belief is.

Calypso1977

I think that you are over-estimating how many people actually care what you're doing in your personal life.

ok, so if you had a friend who in their "personal life" engaged in severe illicit drug use you wouldnt care?  of if you had a friend who thought it was ok to  beat his wife in their "personal life" that's ok?  or if someone you know liked to diddle his 3 year old daughter, that's his "personal life" and you wouldnt care?

Perhaps you dont care what other people in your life think about your living situation.  Ok, fair enough.  Would you care abotu what your kids think?  Because living together as husband and wife before you are married sets the example to them that its ok.  How are you going to teach your children that living together and having sex outside of marriage is wrong, if you yourself did it?   But obviously, you dont see anything wrong with it, and would probably welcoem your child living with someone outside of marriage.

People are not that old-fashioned anymore and the only people who would probably actually give people the side-eye for *gasp* being religious and having the audacity to co-habit before marriage are judgmental peple who are not with the times. 

that is VERY judgmental.

the church is not a democracy.  it was not set up to be a democracy and it will never be a democracy.  just because the majority of its members may think something is stupid, old-fashioned or "not with the times" doesnt mean the rules change based on majority opinion. 

boogerbearoriginal

it is not within anyone's right to say that is not a justifiable reason. 
The point you're missing is that there is NO reason to live together before marriage according to the Catholic Church.

Pointing out a "fact" (however old-fashioned) is not wrong but being judgmental about people who have moved on to a new viewpoint of a belief is.
Again, you seem to be missing that despite whatever mainstream views may be about cohabitation, the church STILL teaches against living together before marriage. Pointing out what the church teaches is NOT being judgmental. And calling that belief old-fashioned is very judgmental on your part.

For some reason, you and others seem to be inferring judgment and getting defensive when we are merely pointing to the very clear teachings of the church about this matter.

eshaufle

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_living-together-before?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:266ae0f6-48e1-4c42-98ee-0e85190d181dPost:59da496f-7d00-446a-aa1c-c2fdfd1b7273">Re: living together before...</a>:
[QUOTE]I think that you are over-estimating how many people actually care what you're doing in your personal life. ok, so if you had a friend who in their "personal life" engaged in severe illicit drug use you wouldnt care?  of if you had a friend who thought it was ok to  beat his wife in their "personal life" that's ok?  or if someone you know liked to diddle his 3 year old daughter, that's his "personal life" and you wouldnt care? Perhaps you dont care what other people in your life think about your living situation.  Ok, fair enough. 

<strong>Haha, you are clearly stretching.  How are any of the above examples even remotely a fair comparison to the simple act of living together?  Everything you just described is <em>illegal.  </em>The reason these things are illegal is because these actions have to do with the safety and protection of our population.  All of the people in the situations described above could potentially harm others around them and not just themselves because of their actions...even the drug use since it could affect you while driving, if you were pregnant, etc.  Last time I checked, I'm not getting harmed by another couple's living situation. 
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Would you care abotu what your kids think?  Because living together as husband and wife before you are married sets the example to them that its ok.  How are you going to teach your children that living together and having sex outside of marriage is wrong, if you yourself did it?   But obviously, you dont see anything wrong with it, and would probably welcoem your child living with someone outside of marriage.

<strong>If you read, you'll see I don't live with my FI.  I like the idea of not living with him but I'm not going to judge others if they choose to live with theirs.  It doesn't affect me.  Of course I care about what my kids think and setting a good example but I also want to raise them to be smart and self-sufficient in their decision making.
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<strong>I'll give my kids the knowledge they need to make their own decisions about what they believe in.   There are certain things you tell kids that are right vs. wrong but I don't personally think living together is a matter of right or wrong.  It's a personal decision in my book that has a lot of grey area.  My parents didn't push any beliefs on me and I feel it taught me to be a self-sufficient and independent thinker.  They taught me to be a good person and treat everyone the way I wanted to be treated.</strong>

People are not that old-fashioned anymore and the only people who would probably actually give people the side-eye for *gasp* being religious and having the audacity to co-habit before marriage are judgmental peple who are not with the times.   that is VERY judgmental. the church is not a democracy.  it was not set up to be a democracy and it will never be a democracy.  just because the majority of its members may think something is stupid, old-fashioned or "not with the times" doesnt mean the rules change based on majority opinion. 

<strong>Well, if the church wants to operate in a democratic nation then they're going to have to put up with people who have their own ever-evolving opinions and voices.  We live in a democracy and the church really can't control that.  They would be ignorant to think that everyone will always put our democratic state of mind aside and listen to what is handed to us at face value.  People are smarter than that.
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Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]

eshaufle

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_living-together-before?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:266ae0f6-48e1-4c42-98ee-0e85190d181dPost:ec60b1d2-8daf-49e9-b25e-1b0168152c0c">Re: living together before...</a>:
[QUOTE]it is not within anyone's right to say that is not a justifiable reason.  The point you're missing is that there is NO reason to live together before marriage according to the Catholic Church. Pointing out a "fact" (however old-fashioned) is not wrong but being judgmental about people who have moved on to a new viewpoint of a belief is. Again, you seem to be missing that despite whatever mainstream views may be about cohabitation, the church STILL teaches against living together before marriage. Pointing out what the church teaches is NOT being judgmental. And calling that belief old-fashioned is very judgmental on your part. For some reason, you and others seem to be inferring judgment and getting defensive when we are merely pointing to the very clear teachings of the church about this matter.
Posted by Booger+Bear[/QUOTE]

I wasn't trying judge peoples' "old-fashioned" point of views.  I have a lot of old-fashioned views that most people would probably say are behind the times.  All I'm saying is that it's not our personal job to judge other peoples' reasonings for going against the grain.

And I didn't say that pointing out something was judgmental.  I said that saying to someone that their stated reason for living together was unjustifiable was judgmental. 

Sorry if that person didn't mean to be judgmental in their comment but it came across that way.  If the statement had just been something like "Be honest with your priest, it technically goes against the church to live together for any reason so he might not agree with your decision" then that would have been a statement of fact without a judgment attached.  But when you say to someone that said they lived together for financial reasons that it is not an excuse then that's judging.

boogerbearoriginal

eshaufle - there is no gray area on this matter. The Church is very clear and while it may not be illegal from a secular point, by doing so, those people are deliberately disobeying the church's teachings.  And I should point out some states actually do have laws prohibiting cohabitation so it may in fact be illegal.

And furthermore, I do care about what other people are doing. Not because I'm some busybody but because other people's actions do impact me. Maybe not directly, but I care about the good of society and if people continue to turn a blind eye because 'it doesn't hurt me' where do you draw the line?

I think it was Jay+Marissa who said in the stereotypes thread something along the lines of 'since when does your faith stop at your bedroom door.' Quite apropos to this discussion.

I realize this may sound very hypocritical from someone who did cohabitate but I acknowledge that what we did was opposite the church's teachings. The current state of my soul is between me and God but I do regret moving in together before marriage. IMO it took away some of the 'specialness' about being newly husband/wife.

boogerbearoriginal

 But when you say to someone that said they lived together for financial reasons that it is not an excuse then that's judging.
I can't speak for that poster, but IMO she was not judging her financial reasons, but pointing out that there aren't any acceptable reasons to live together premarriage according to the church. So no matter what her circumstances it's still an attempt to excuse behavior that is wrong according to the church. Does that make sense?

FWIW - typically when people say things are old-fashioned it's done in a dismissive and condescending way so that's why I took what you wrote as judging.

eshaufle

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_living-together-before?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:266ae0f6-48e1-4c42-98ee-0e85190d181dPost:9d6a948f-8425-4c66-9ab4-1bb4b40b5306">Re: living together before...</a>:
[QUOTE]eshaufle - there is no gray area on this matter. The Church is very clear and while it may not be illegal from a secular point, by doing so, those people are deliberately disobeying the church's teachings. 

<strong>Yet again...I'm not saying that living together is not going against the church.  I said there was grey area in society on whether this is really right or wrong.  I didn't say in the church.</strong> 

And I should point out some states actually do have laws prohibiting cohabitation so it may in fact be illegal. And furthermore, I do care about what other people are doing. Not because I'm some busybody but because other people's actions do impact me. Maybe not directly, but I care about the good of society and if people continue to turn a blind eye because 'it doesn't hurt me' where do you draw the line?

<strong>How is anyone living together hurting society or hurting you?  We're not commenting on what people are doing behind closed doors.  In fact, most people on here have said that they lived together more as roommates than anything (separate bedrooms, baths, etc) so I don't know how we keep coming back to "the bedroom" *gasp!!.  And it's not just that they're not hurting you or me or anyone one person...they're not hurting <em>anyone</em>.  There are bigger fish to fry in this world seriously.
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I think it was Jay+Marissa who said in the stereotypes thread something along the lines of 'since when does your faith stop at your bedroom door.'

<strong>We're not talking about any bedrooms ok?  Never were.  If people draw assumptions about what you do in your private residence (which people will do whether you live together or not btw) then it's only your fault if you let it bug you.  Just b/c my FI and I don't live together does not mean we don't get *wink wink* references from people.  People will draw conclusions no matter what.  Be comfortable enough in your own faith.
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Quite apropos to this discussion. I realize this may sound very hypocritical from someone who did cohabitate but I acknowledge that what we did was opposite the church's teachings. The current state of my soul is between me and God but I do regret moving in together before marriage. IMO it took away some of the 'specialness' about being newly husband/wife.

<strong>No one was saying that the church doesn't say to not live together.  I'm just saying for people not to judge.  People make decisions for whatever reasons they do at the time (you obviously did for whatever reasons you had at the time and hopefully people were fair in not judging you uselessly).  Sometimes they regret them and sometimes they don't.  I agree with your last sentence in that it is the same reason I'm not living with my FI before we're married.  We think it will be fun to be newlyweds setting up our home, decorating, etc.  We didn't have a reason to live together any sooner than that so we didn't and glad we aren't.
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Posted by Booger+Bear[/QUOTE]

mica178

If we get back to the original question, the OP asked if her cohabitation with her FI would be an issue with the priest during pre-marital counseling.  Originally, we all answered that question, but now I feel that we've gotten off track.

This is a Catholic board.  Posters come here asking for advice from other Catholic people.  Some might not agree with the teachings and policies of the Catholic church, but those arguments probably should not be in the middle of this post as they do little to help out the OP.

FWIW, as the priest's job is to help guide the couple into a Catholic/Christian marriage, it is his duty to give advice that follows the teachings of the church, and that includes advising against cohabitation.  That does not mean that he will refuse to marry a cohabitating couple, although that choice is left to his discretion.  Financial hardships are rough for everyone, but they exist in the secular world.  Priests are advising from a spiritual standpoint, and that has nothing to do with finances.