No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church

chelseamb11

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:2c703133-a5ff-4df7-ab76-7ca77ebbbb65">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]Sorry if you feel like you are being jumped on by everyone, but the reason for that is because this is such a SERIOUS situation, which you seem to think that you can ignore by lying to the priest and the entire community at your wedding ceremony. If you do not want children, (and you seem rather reluctant to study it further---you have said you will read a book that was recommended, but you also sound pretty convinced that reading a book will not change your mind; demonstrating that you aren't even OPEN to the idea of changing your mind and learning other explanations for this teaching of the Church!) so if you do not want children, then you should not get married in the Catholic Church, since clearly your vision of what defines a "marriage" is different than that of the Catholic Church.  <strong>And I am extremely bothered and offended by the fact that you have come on here and asked us if the Catholic Church will marry people who say they aren't open to children, and now it sounds as if you are now planning to use the information that we have given you to LIE about such a serious matter.
</strong>Posted by lalaith50[/QUOTE]

Thank you for more eloquently saying what I was thinking.

afrenchprincess1

I will continue as planned with my church wedding ceremony as I feel and know that it a central part of a good and blessed marriage to be married in the church. It is very important to me. I have taken deep thought  on the matter and know for several reasons this is the right choice. I will not lie it is more of an issue of potato or potatoe to me it seems with the "accepting" children and "wanting" children in the sacrament of marriage. I just didn't want to "word" it wrong to the priest. I take great pride in my faith as Catholic and marriage. Thanks for this very interesting feedback. I also will read this book. Thanks Ladies!

bbakerrd

Wow!  You're probably getting more information than you ever expected.

Your final decision is ultimately between you and your God.

Good luck to you.  I wish weddings didn't have to be so stressful.

mica178

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:ad31efa5-837e-4133-b202-591a85ff638f">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]Wow!  You're probably getting more information than you ever expected. Your final decision is ultimately between you and your God. Good luck to you. <strong> I wish weddings didn't have to be so stressful.</strong>
Posted by bbakerrd[/QUOTE]

I disagree.  I hope everyone has a relatively stress-free wedding <em>reception </em>planning experience.  As for the actual planning of the<em> ceremony/marriage</em>, I think intense soul-searching is a good thing for building up a good foundation for a successful marriage.  It's good to question your assumptions about your future marriage before actually saying the vows.

chelseamb11

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:4dbd68f6-6e6b-43b8-8363-e904885a1ca0">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]I will continue as planned with my church wedding ceremony as <strong>I feel and know that it a central part of a good and blessed marriage to be married in the church</strong>. It is very important to me. I have taken deep thought  on the matter and know for several reasons this is the right choice. I will not lie it is more of an issue of potato or potatoe to me it seems with the "accepting" children and "wanting" children in the sacrament of marriage. I just didn't want to "word" it wrong to the priest. I take great pride in my faith as Catholic and marriage. Thanks for this very interesting feedback. I also will read this book. Thanks Ladies!
Posted by afrenchprincess1[/QUOTE]

So you're USING the church then?  How offensive.
The point of marrying in the church is to feel closer to God and to feel that he was a true part of your wedding ceremony and your subsequent marriage.  If you go into this ceremony with lies or lies of omission, believe me, there's nothing Holy about it.
Being open and accepting to children means you will not be using any form of birth control other than NFP.  If tht is the case, you're okay.  Being open to children doesn't mean you have to plan them or even actively try for them.  Basically, in your brain, it will boil down to, what forms of birth control will you use?  If you're open to NFP, honestly I think that is the only "loophole" you can use in this whole process without starting your marriage off on the wrong foot.  That being said, if you get pregnant, this also means embracing the child in all possible ways.

It's not the Catholic Church's stamp of approval on your marriage that gets you okay with God and gives you a happy marriage.  It's your true communion with God and your husband that will.  And if you go into your marriage with a lie (yes it is a LIE...Thou Shalt Not Lie remember?) you will not be in full communion with God and your Husband.  The Church is there as a vessel or a conduit to God.  But just because you are in that vessel, it doesn't mean you will get to God.  You need to be 100% mentally, emotionally, physically and spriitually there in order to live a Holy life.

agapecarrie

NFP can be used with a contraceptive mentality. It is only supposed to be used when there is a reason to avoid children (different words in the documents that are used to say "serious/grave/just" reason). There is no complete list to gauge this, and couples are free to discern what kind of serious reason they have to avoid at that time.... but "we just don't want kids" doesn't really count.

The document I am referring to is Humane Vitae, as well as others.

chelseamb11

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:86934b3d-234d-4270-a7dd-7967729f85c5">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]NFP can be used with a contraceptive mentality. It is only supposed to be used when there is a reason to avoid children (different words in the documents that are used to say "serious/grave/just" reason). There is no complete list to gauge this, and couples are free to discern what kind of serious reason they have to avoid at that time.... but "we just don't want kids" doesn't really count. The document I am referring to is Humane Vitae, as well as others.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

Yeah.. hence my "loophole" in quotes.
THis whole situation realllly bugs me. I don't know why it's bugging me so much.

professorscience

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:86934b3d-234d-4270-a7dd-7967729f85c5">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]NFP can be used with a contraceptive mentality. It is only supposed to be used when there is a reason to avoid children (different words in the documents that are used to say "serious/grave/just" reason). There is no complete list to gauge this, and couples are free to discern what kind of serious reason they have to avoid at that time.... but "we just don't want kids" doesn't really count. The document I am referring to is Humane Vitae, as well as others.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

I think the bigger issue is what methods OP will choose to make sure she doesn't have children.  At least, that's what I got from Chelsea's post.

Riss91

OP - I am so unbelievably saddened, offended and disgusted.

To you it's 'potato'/potahto'. To us, it's serious. You are correct that being married in the Church is what is "right". But, to be married in the Church (not just physically, but in TRUTH) you CANNOT bear false witness to the priest, your guests and God.

So, you're going to go and have a physical ceremony, which will include professing lies AT THE ALTAR, you'll get your license from a priest that performed a ceremony for you under FALSE PRETENSES. But in truth, you will not have a valid Catholic marriage.

Thanks for using our faith to suit your needs. How deplorable! I'm actually shaking here I'm so upset.

chelseamb11

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:d4b83342-95ae-4847-b0e1-a30ea39f2ce2">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church : I think the bigger issue is what methods OP will choose to make sure she doesn't have children.  At least, that's what I got from Chelsea's post.
Posted by professorscience[/QUOTE]

Yes ma'am! That was the meat/point of it.  I have a feeling since OP is that concerned with not wanting kids, she's going to use other forms of b.c.

Calypso1977

this all makes sense now.  OP was the one who posted below about not wanting to be confirmed either. 

chelseamb11

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:609bae48-f863-4b8d-ae64-b3c63bf0f2ef">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]this all makes sense now.  OP was the one who posted below about not wanting to be confirmed either. 
Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]

That makes me even more mad.  I hate it when people think the Catholic Church can write something on a piece of paper.  Faith isn't something the Church can just give you a certificate for.  Faith is between you and God. 
OP, you are trying to use the church, which shows you have ZERO comprehension of what faith or a sacrament is. That is disgusting.

professorscience

While I'm sad that OP is not really learning anything from what's been said here, I do love what I learn from threads that get girls on this board all riled up.

agapecarrie

While this article is mostly revealing the paradox of "Catholics for a free choice", this thread reminded me of it.  

Intrinsic to its own truth of existing, marriage just simply won't happen without the proper intent. There can be a show, and it can look like one, but doesn't make it so.

http://www.catholicity.com/commentary/coyne/00267.html

MrsMack10612

This topic has given rise to some questions.

First off, I am not Catholic, my FI is and we will be married in the Church.  We have been working with the priest and I understand the Churches teachings in re: to children/marriage.

My question(s) is what if the woman in the marriage has a condition or conditions that do require birth control as a form of treatment?  Also what if she has a condition that would make pregnancy life threatening, again requiring birth control to ensure no pregnancy?  I understand that NFP is as effective for avoidance as well as trying to get pregnant.

I'm curious if the Church makes any exceptions in those cases.

professorscience

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:20507200-c9b0-4b6b-99b2-50f9a175329e">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]This topic has given rise to some questions. First off, I am not Catholic, my FI is and we will be married in the Church.  We have been working with the priest and I understand the Churches teachings in re: to children/marriage. My question(s) is what if the woman in the marriage has a condition or conditions that do require birth control as a form of treatment?  Also what if she has a condition that would make pregnancy life threatening, again requiring birth control to ensure no pregnancy?  I understand that NFP is as effective for avoidance as well as trying to get pregnant. <strong>I'm curious if the Church makes any exceptions in those cases.
</strong>Posted by kjhowd[/QUOTE]

My understanding is that they do, BUT there are lots of non-BC treatments for <strong>some</strong> of the conditions a woman might have that most doctors would treat with BC.  Every case is different, so I think the best advice would be to seek out a doc who focuses on NFP.

lalaith50

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:48a4ea4d-ee82-457c-92b8-f67ec1f550b8">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church : My understanding is that they do, BUT there are lots of non-BC treatments for some of the conditions a woman might have that most doctors would treat with BC.  Every case is different, so I think the best advice would be to seek out a doc who focuses on NFP.
Posted by professorscience[/QUOTE]
yes, definitely. Part of the problem is that so many doctors just slap birth control on problems like a band-aid, without trying to find the root cause of the problem, and fix it, which is what a NFP-knowledgable doctor is much more likely to be able to do.<div>
</div><div>In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:c62e04e8-ced8-4546-afee-6f00a49bbe9c">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]While I'm sad that OP is not really learning anything from what's been said here, I do love what I learn from threads that get girls on this board all riled up.
Posted by professorscience[/QUOTE]</div><div>lol, yup.</div><div>
</div><div>And OP, the thing that I'm getting more and more confused about as I read this... We're telling you that by not being open to children, it WILL invalidate your marriage, whether you completely admit that to the priest or not. As in, the *Catholic Church* would say that your marriage did not occur. And yet...you are so insistent that you want a wedding in this same church! Why?</div>

ingeniousidea

@kjhowd,

Good questions!

As far as BC for medical reasons -- I will echo PPs in saying that often BC is prescribed when it might not necessarily be the best treatment.  However, if a medical condition does in fact require the use of hormonal BC to treat the condition, that's entirely acceptable.  It falls under the ethical principle of double effect, which (in a nutshell) states that if a "bad" result is not the primary intention of an action, but simply a foreseen side effect, you may still (with some caveats that I won't go into) perform the action.  In this case, the woman wouldn't be taking BC in order to avoid children, but rather with the intention to treat a medical disorder.  The contraceptive action of the BC is a secondary effect that is merely foreseen, not directly intended.

That's all a very complicated way of saying that yes, it's fine.

As for avoiding pregnancy because pregnancy itself would be the medically threatening condition -- this one is trickier.  The intent to avoid conception is allowable, since this would definitely fall under "serious reason" to avoid having children!  However, you still cannot use immoral means of avoiding conception, e.g. deliberate use of hormonal contraceptives to avoid pregnancy.  However, NFP or abstaining altogether are completely acceptable.  Used correctly, NFP has a very high effectiveness in either avoiding or achieving conception.  Some studies have reported effectiveness as high as hormonal BC.  Of course, this takes self-control and dedication to the system, but if pregnancy is a life-threatening condition for a woman, I'm sure she would be motivated to stick with it!

MrsMack10612

Thanks ingenious.  I see how things can get tricky when you get into all the different caveats of life/medical treatment etc.

Though I realize that NFP can be as effective as hormonal BC in avoiding conception, I think if I was a woman in that position, I would want to do everything possible to avoid, so BC might be the choice.

If I recall correctly from our work with the priet, isn't marriage (and sex) also for the joy of the husband and wife?  Wouldn't abstaining go against the Church's teachings in a manner of speaking.

FTR - not trying to be argumentative - just trying to learn & understand better.

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:9ce0fa58-04d9-4cea-9b56-af2fc2562dd1">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]Thanks ingenious.  I see how things can get tricky when you get into all the different caveats of life/medical treatment etc. Though I realize that NFP can be as effective as hormonal BC in avoiding conception, I think if I was a woman in that position, I would want to do everything possible to avoid, so BC might be the choice. If I recall correctly from our work with the priet, isn't marriage (and sex) also for the joy of the husband and wife?  Wouldn't abstaining go against the Church's teachings in a manner of speaking. FTR - not trying to be argumentative - just trying to learn & understand better.
Posted by kjhowd[/QUOTE]

ABC is WAY more risky than nfp. The stats for ABC don't make sense because it gets credit for "preventing" something that couldn't happen in the first place when women are infertile. NOTHING is worth losing your soul.

Marriage has 2 purposes...both unitive and procreative. However,  you cannot separate the 2. By trying to separate, you actually take both out...by removing the procreative aspect of sex, you remove the unitive aspect. Our souls are not trapped in the body, the body manifests the soul...you cannot do something with the body that doesn't also speak what the soul is doing.

Sex is complete self gift to the other. It's not...I give everything except my fertility. I love everything about you except your fertility. Just like we wouldn't want our face covered during sex, so we shouldn't put a barrier up (or sterilize) our fertility.

smiatrow

I'm new to this board, but saw this post and thought I'd add my thoughts.

1. First and foremost, as other PP have said, DO NOT lie to your priest.  Discuss this with the priest and see what he has to say.

2. I know that you do not want children, but I think the more important question is what  will you do if you do get pregnant?  Will you keep the child or have an abortion or give it up to adoption?  If you would keep the baby, I would tell the priest that you are not currently planning (because you may change your mind) to have kids BUT if you do get pregnant you will welcome the child into your family and raise the child Catholic and go from there.  If you wouldn't keep your child, then you honestly should not be getting married in a Catholic church.

I do not think that you have to agree in every single thing the church teaches to be a member, but you should be able to have an open and honest discussion about them with your priest without lying.

MrsMack10612

I'm not talking about infertility.  I am talking about other medical conditions that can cause pregnancy to be life-threatening - they do exist.

Please remember - I am not Catholic, I do not (nor do all other Christian faiths) consider non NFP birth control to be immoral.  I understand that is the Catholic stance - it is not everybody's.  It is not our (your's, mine or anyone else's) place to judge.  I'm relatively confident that my God would understand the choice to use ABC (not sure what the 'A' stands for) if it meant preserving my life. 

As for your last statement - if a woman (or man) are infertile; they do not choose to be that way.  Are you saying that if a couple is infertile (non-medically induced) that they cannot give themselves fully?

Riss91

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:de4f540f-aeeb-4d75-a85a-b997414d8a66">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE] I do not think that you have to agree in every single thing the church teaches to be a member, but you should be able to have an open and honest discussion about them with your priest without lying.
Posted by smiatrow[/QUOTE]

I completely agree that those that are still working things out and at odds with certain Church teachings are still members.

BUT, when it comes to marriage, which is a sacrament, if you disagree with, or are unable to honestly commit to part of the REQUIREMENTS of marriage according to the Church, then you should not be receiving that sacrament.

Say you were moving to the US from another country and wanted to obtain work, and the application at a prospective employer asked if you had a work VISA (which would be a requriement for employment). Say you didn't have a VISA.You aren't eligible for that job. You couldn't simply say "Well , I don't, but let me just not check anything and hope they 'think' I have it, so that they will employ me'. That's illegal.

Riss91

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:8be5a66e-05a9-43e9-b14a-dd9c5658cb2d">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm not talking about infertility.  I am talking about other medical conditions that can cause pregnancy to be life-threatening - they do exist. Please remember - I am not Catholic, I do not (nor do all other Christian faiths) consider non NFP birth control to be immoral.  I understand that is the Catholic stance - it is not everybody's.  It is not our (your's, mine or anyone else's) place to judge.  I'm relatively confident that my God would understand the choice to use ABC (not sure what the 'A' stands for) if it meant preserving my life.  As for your last statement - if a woman (or man) are infertile; they do not choose to be that way.  Are you saying that if a couple is infertile (non-medically induced) that they cannot give themselves fully?
Posted by kjhowd[/QUOTE]

Thanks coming on in and sharing ideas (and hopefully learning more about ours!)

The "A" stands for Artificial. And the Catholic Church would agree that ABC, if it was the only option to prevent a life-threatening situation, would be acceptable. If a couple is infertile (and became this way naturally, ie not through vasectomy or something like that) they most certainly can give themselves fully. The "natural" part of this is the key.

ingeniousidea

@kjhowd,

I hope I have not given you the impression that my "you"s have been specific to you personally -- I meant them generically but I'll be more careful with my language!  I appreciate that you are taking the time to listen to the Catholic perspective and learn more about the understanding behind it.

It's probably helpful to point out here that in Catholic moral teaching, it's not simply the result of an action that matters or even the act itself.  Intention is also a crucial part of determining whether an action is morally acceptable.  ABC is Artificial Birth Control, e.g. anything other than NFP.  As far as infertile couples go, they are not doing anything wrong on this view because they are not deliberately withholding their ability to conceive.  Presumably, if they could give their "whole selves" (including their fertility), they would, but through no fault or direct action of their own they cannot.  It is the deliberate withholding of fertility that is at the heart of the Catholic teaching against contraception.  NFP is acceptable because no action is taken to interfere with or withhold the natural fertility of the male or female body -- it simply takes it into consideration when deciding whether or not to engage in intercourse. 

The Catholic Church would say that yes, preserving one's life is a valuable and important goal.  In order to do that, however, one may only engage in morally acceptable actions, so birth control is not a licit means of avoiding conception even if conception would be dangerous.  In that situation, a couple is called to use NFP judiciously or even abstain altogether.  While sex is a great good and an important one, if it cannot be performed in a morally acceptable way (that is, in a manner that is open to life and not contracepted), couples must abstain.

MrsMack10612

Thanks Riss.  I lurk around here a lot, as I said  - I am not, but FI is Catholic.  We are marrying in the Church and I'm definitely interested in learning - both from a doctrine POV as well as the wedding part of it.

I am not interested in converting to Catholicism, but I feel it is important to go into this wholeheartedly.  To me it would be disrespectful to my FI, the priest and the Church to stand at the altar and "go through the motions" and not understand what I'm doing/agreeing to etc.

Our priest had us do many readings/discussions from the Catechism of the Catholic Church book and it really helped me understand things better - but I do like to get involved in discussions occasionally where I get laypersons thoughts/words.  It can be a little confusing sometimes if it's all "church speak", if you get my meaning.  Especially on some of the more hot button topics - it seems those are the ones that are hardest to get a clear answer.

ETA @ Ingenious - I did take your "yous" as general not specific.  And thank you that helps to clarify what I was asking previously.

Calypso1977

Though I realize that NFP can be as effective as hormonal BC in avoiding conception, I think if I was a woman in that position, I would want to do everything possible to avoid, so BC might be the choice.

its actually more effective.  i know several women who have gotten pregnant on the pill. 

lalaith50

kjhowd-- that's so wonderful that you are researching more about what the Church teaches about marriage and things! It's so sad that many Catholics themselves even just go through the motions without making any effort to learn more about the parts of their faith with which they are unfamiliar. God bless you in your learning!

MrsMack10612

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:7fd0a57b-c9eb-460b-8c1c-529afa05aef4">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]kjhowd-- that's so wonderful that you are researching more about what the Church teaches about marriage and things! It's so sad that many Catholics themselves even just go through the motions without making any effort to learn more about the parts of their faith with which they are unfamiliar. God bless you in your learning!
Posted by lalaith50[/QUOTE]

<img src="http://cdn.cl9.vanillaforums.com/downloaded/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-smile.gif" border="0" alt="Smile" title="Smile" />  My mom & my faith brought me up to be respectful of other's beliefs.  Though we worship in different ways, as a Christian we have the same God - so it would also be disrepectful to Him.

I can say, some opinions I had of the Church have changed for the better.  For personal reasons I used to think of it as "an evil empire".  I still do not agree with all of the teachings - but I understand where they come from better now.

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:8be5a66e-05a9-43e9-b14a-dd9c5658cb2d">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm not talking about infertility.  I am talking about other medical conditions that can cause pregnancy to be life-threatening - they do exist. Please remember - I am not Catholic, I do not (nor do all other Christian faiths) consider non NFP birth control to be immoral.  I understand that is the Catholic stance - it is not everybody's.  It is not our (your's, mine or anyone else's) place to judge.  I'm relatively confident that my God would understand the choice to use ABC (not sure what the 'A' stands for) if it meant preserving my life.  As for your last statement - if a woman (or man) are infertile; they do not choose to be that way.  Are you saying that if a couple is infertile (non-medically induced) that they cannot give themselves fully?
Posted by kjhowd[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>I think this was responding to me?</div><div>
</div><div>Even though this might seem like splitting hairs, its very important to use language correctly when talking about this...</div><div>Using ABC does not preserve anyone's life. That's impossible.  (In fact, the pill and other hormonal bc cuases more harm than any good). Using ABC might, depending on method, prevent ovulation, or keep sperm away from egg (condoms), OR in all hormonal bc methods, could possibly abort a child.</div><div>
</div><div> It could be that the stress on the body from a pregnancy might cause a body damage that could be fatal. There is the difference.   So one might have a serious reason to avoid pregnancy, but the means to doing so are vastly different between ABC and NFP.  The ends are the same: not having children. The means are different. Kind of like someone either earning money or robbing a bank. Same ends: obtain money. Different means to get there: one is moral, the other isn't. </div><div>
</div><div>About "judging"...we are definitely called to judge actions. Truth is not relative to what we want to be, it doesn't change. We cannot judge people's hearts. I understand different faiths have come to different conclusions about ABC, but most people in those faiths haven't done one lick of research about how that came to be. Did you know that ALL protestant faiths were against any kind of contraception until 1930s? Then they changed. I'd recommend reading up on why the church teaches what she does, as been recommended before, Christopher West books are a great start. </div><div>
</div><div>I didn't say anything about infertiity. I was talking about purpuseful sterility (such as hormonal birth control, vasectomy, condoms--as in sterilizing the act).</div><div>
</div><div>When a couple is infertile by no means of their own actions, they are not willfully holding anything back from their spouse. </div><div>
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