No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church

Jay&Marissa

Wait? When was Hitler brought in?

There are lots of prominent politicians today that say they are Catholic but believe very little of the doctrine. It's a moot point.

caitriona87

Um yeah what the heck is this about Hitler? Clearly it didn't "take" and Catholics were one of the groups targeted for persecution under his regime. I am trying to come up with an explanation for throwing in this factoid that is not offensive....

agapecarrie

I originally brought up hitler way back...I was being challenged on calling actions wrong. Their reasoning is becasue its a different "belief system" I can't judge that action to be wrong.

To which I brought up more extreme examples such as terrorists or hitler. Hitler had a different belief system, and his actions were wrong. I sure as heck can say those are wrong. 

Bec20

Sorry for not being clearer.  I definitely realize Hitler went against the Church's teachings (and was a Grade A scumbag), but I felt like it should be mentioned anyway.  I hope I didn't offend any of you ladies, you've all taught me a lot about the Catholic faith and why the doctrine is the way it is, a lot of which I didn't understand the reasoning behind before visiting this board.

blush64

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:c07c6e22-bd6b-4df3-b6b9-7d6f15bcdbf8">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]Sorry for not being clearer.  I definitely realize Hitler went against the Church's teachings (and was a Grade A scumbag),<strong> but I felt like it should be mentioned anyway.</strong>  I hope I didn't offend any of you ladies, you've all taught me a lot about the Catholic faith and why the doctrine is the way it is, a lot of which I didn't understand the reasoning behind before visiting this board.
Posted by Bec20[/QUOTE]

<strong>I have been following this thread but I really don't see why it should be mentioned anyway</strong>. It's just really out of place for a thread about Natural family planning, ABC, not wanting children and getting married in the church. Everything else had some sort of tie in and then I read ... by the way Hitler (one of the worst examples of humanity) was Catholic, but no offence. You probably meant nothing by it but usually when I have been talking with someone who mentions this, there's usually a reason.

Resa77

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:b9b03502-44b2-4c84-9453-5ffd4e7b58a0">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]You can go to one of the docs on omsoul who have training in napro technology that work to actually heal and cure problems rather than cover them up with the pill. That's what charting does...diagnose problems so docs can figure out the cause. Napro technology is awesome. I found out I had some potential pre-cancerous issues, as well as low progesterne, and PCOS from charting. I've learned how to actually fix these problems rather than cover it up. RESA, have you tried a napro doc?
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure I ever heard her refer to napro (I don't recall ever hearing that term until this board!), but she is extensively trained in the Creighton Method and I know there's an association there, so maybe? 

Bec20

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:b2a3aa13-d8d2-4c4e-b76f-0e7ba399a186">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church : I have been following this thread but I really don't see why it should be mentioned anyway . It's just really out of place for a thread about Natural family planning, ABC, not wanting children and getting married in the church. Everything else had some sort of tie in and then I read ... by the way Hitler (one of the worst examples of humanity) was Catholic, but no offence. You probably meant nothing by it but usually when I have been talking with someone who mentions this, there's usually a reason.
Posted by blush64[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>I'm sorry, it was a bit out of place.  However, I truly didn't mean anything by it Blush.</div><div>
</div><div>I do have a couple of questions about validity in Catholic marriages (if you girls don't mind me asking).  I think I know the answers to both of this, but you all seem to know much more than I do about the topic so I figure you'll be more accurate than me.</div><div>
</div><div>Scenario A - Catholic man wants to marry a woman who was married before (now annulled by the Church).  However, she had her tubes tied in her first marriage.  Can this be valid?</div><div>
</div><div>Scenario B - I know that if somebody who was baptised Catholic has left the Church their marriage is not valid, BUT I also know that lying when giving your vows also makes your marriage not valid (duh).  So, can a no longer practising Catholic ever have a valid marriage without marrying a practising Catholic in the Church?
</div><div>
</div><div>(Since you ladies have already been discussing the validity of marriages and the first one is directly related to that, I hope you don't mind me asking in this thread.)</div>

agapecarrie

A: Yes, it can be valid. Past actions, while having lasting consequences, don't necessarily effect current state of mind. (Assuming she had a change of heart and understanding of what the church teaches about marriage). A couple past their fertility ages can also marry validly.

B: A fallen away Catholic can only marry validly in the Catholic church (the person they marry does not have to be Catholic). 

To clarify, when I say "in the Catholic Church", I mean going through the formation process with a priest/deacon and getting all necessary documents done, etc. A person may receive a dispensation from form to marry in another church- but its still considered being married "in the catholic church" so to speak. It's still consdered valid. A Catholic just can't go off somewhere and get married without going through the Catholic process though.

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:f54b6435-6dde-4aa4-8c99-09eafaa972cb">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church : I'm not sure I ever heard her refer to napro (I don't recall ever hearing that term until this board!), but she is extensively trained in the Creighton Method and I know there's an association there, so maybe? 
Posted by Resa77[/QUOTE]

<div>Well, there are people trained to teach Creighton, and there are Doctors who are napro docs who actually do the diagnosing and treating. If she knows Creighton, she would hopefully be helping you wiht the napro stuff or recommending someone that is. </div><div>
</div><div>
</div>

Bec20

That's what I thought.  Thanks for answering my questions Agape.

Calypso1977

for scenario A, they can still be open to children.  while its very rare, a woman with tied tubes or a man with a vasectomy can still get pregnant/get someone pregnant.  also, they can adopt.

lalaith50

I could be totally wrong here, but aren't they required to get the tubes untied if at all possible? (I thought that was possible? Just expensive? Or maybe I'm mistaking that with the possibility of reversing a vasectomy...)

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:db5c58d6-c3c4-43bc-a03c-d7a37c3f9557">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]I could be totally wrong here, but aren't they required to get the tubes untied if at all possible? (I thought that was possible? Just expensive? Or maybe I'm mistaking that with the possibility of reversing a vasectomy...)
Posted by lalaith50[/QUOTE]

<div>No. There is no requirement to undo sterlization for either male or female. Although it would be a virtuous act.</div>

caitriona87

I've heard it argued, and it made sense to me, that in order to truly repent from sterilization a couple should at the very least chart and "practice NFP," abstaining during a period of the month. The reasoning was that absolution requires contrition and a purpose of amendment, and it is very difficult if not impossible to have contrition for a sin while still enjoying the fruits of that sin (in this case, anytime sex without chance of pregnancy.) It was compared to stealing money, confessing, but then keeping and spending the money. Well if you do that, how sorry are you? Since reversal is often prohibitive cost- or healthwise, another way to stop enjoying the fruits of the sin would be to abstain like the couple would be doing had the sterilization never occurred.

lalaith50

but... there is a very, very slim chance that a woman could still get pregnant, even with having a tubal ligation. (Although, it is more likely to be a dangerous ectopic pregnancy.) So, while I certainly understand the reasoning caitrona explained, God can work miracles, so what if, in this case, the couple wanted to have relations during the whole month, *just in case* there was a chance they could get pregnant? 

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:7aee0110-81a3-4db9-9ef3-9a4c06fe93a1">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]I've heard it argued, and it made sense to me, that in order to truly repent from sterilization a couple should at the very least chart and "practice NFP," abstaining during a period of the month. The reasoning was that absolution requires contrition and a purpose of amendment, and it is very difficult if not impossible to have contrition for a sin while still enjoying the fruits of that sin (in this case, anytime sex without chance of pregnancy.) It was compared to stealing money, confessing, but then keeping and spending the money. Well if you do that, how sorry are you? Since reversal is often prohibitive cost- or healthwise, another way to stop enjoying the fruits of the sin would be to abstain like the couple would be doing had the sterilization never occurred.
Posted by caitriona87[/QUOTE]

This, while virtuous to practice temperance, is not required. This is also assuming that sterility is a "fruit to be enjoyed".  Usually sterilization creates problems in the marriage, and weighs on a couple for the rest of their lives. I know so many couples who regret their choice to permanently sterilize themselves who are in such pain that they cannot have more children.

ootmother2

Vasectomy revesal rates current run about $15,000, perhaps less in small cities.  it's a rather lengthy procedure, much less than the origninal "snip snip'

The actual rate of producing live sperm after the reversal is almost 99% although the post reversal pregnancy rate is 64%.

hth

ElisabethJoanne

I went to the one more soul website. As I knew, 0 doctors, at least 0 OB/GYNs or general practitioners, within 100 miles of my home. Also, the information was out of date regarding phone numbers, etc., for organizations I know. I'm within commuting distance of at least 3 teaching hospitals, at the center of 3 big cities. The closest hospital is Catholic. It's not like it's hard for me to get other medical treatment.

There's a class 1 carcinogen in peanut butter and potato chips.

Anyone heard about a link between bactrin and acute respiratory distress syndrome?

Point 1: The logistics of getting medical treatment related to NFP and Napro can be very, very hard.
Point 2: The medical choices regarding artificial hormone therapy or some other treatment or no treatment can be similarly very, very hard.

bibliophile2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:67620340-b7bf-4e31-ba8f-928c4304f883">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]I went to the one more soul website. As I knew, 0 doctors, at least 0 OB/GYNs or general practitioners, within 100 miles of my home. Also, the information was out of date regarding phone numbers, etc., for organizations I know. I'm within commuting distance of at least 3 teaching hospitals, at the center of 3 big cities. The closest hospital is Catholic. It's not like it's hard for me to get other medical treatment. There's a class 1 carcinogen in peanut butter and potato chips. Anyone heard about a link between bactrin and acute respiratory distress syndrome? Point 1: The logistics of getting medical treatment related to NFP and Napro can be very, very hard. Point 2: The medical choices regarding artificial hormone therapy or some other treatment or no treatment can be similarly very, very hard.
Posted by ElisabethJoanne[/QUOTE]

1. If you are looking for information about NaPro or NFP, I think it is better to go to the sources directly (CCL website, Pope Paul IV institue website, diocese, etc.), since I agree that One More Soul is good in theory, but not a perfect directory.

2. No one is arguing that the decision to use HBC for medical treatments is not difficult. They are just saying that even though it is difficult it is not the best choice.

Finally, I would warn that just because a hospital claims to be Catholic does not mean that it is authentically praciticing Catholic medicine. Patients <strong>must</strong> learn to be their own best advocates to ensure that the treatment they receive is aligned with their beliefs.

[ETA the end of my thoughts for #1, the word "not," a sentence, and a period in point #2.]

agapecarrie

People drive from states away to go to the napro docs here. They think its worth it.

afrenchprincess1

This has been quite an interesting dialogue thanks to all that answered and providing information. I have chosen what will benefit and husband in the future. Not the church's stance on things. I know that my relationship with God is solid and he know's what is needed and required from me not what the church believes is right. I'm so ecited about my Catholic ceremony and I wish you ladies a great ceremony as well!

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:1c43b236-6a1b-4e65-8c04-765d49ce6976">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]This has been quite an interesting dialogue thanks to all that answered and providing information. I have chosen what will benefit and husband in the future. Not the church's stance on things. I know that my relationship with God is solid and he know's what is needed and required from me not what the church believes is right. I'm so ecited about my Catholic ceremony and I wish you ladies a great ceremony as well!
Posted by afrenchprincess1[/QUOTE]

<div>What you are missing is that the what the church wants IS what God wants.</div><div>
</div><div>In Matthew 16, Christ gave the keys to Peter, the first pope. Scripture reads the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. The church is the bride of Christ...they are one. The church wants what is best for you...what benefits you and your husband. </div>

Riss91

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:1c43b236-6a1b-4e65-8c04-765d49ce6976">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]This has been quite an interesting dialogue thanks to all that answered and providing information. I have chosen what will benefit and husband in the future. Not the church's stance on things. I know that my relationship with God is solid and he know's what is needed and required from me not what the church believes is right. I'm so ecited about my Catholic ceremony and I wish you ladies a great ceremony as well!
Posted by afrenchprincess1[/QUOTE]

ugh there is so much nonsense here... yes, you have chosen to go AGAINST the Church to do what will "benefit" YOU. That sounds exactly like what God would want - for you to do whatever YOU want to fulfill YOUR needs. NOT what is right according to the Church, whose sole purpose is to worship and glorify God. It's so completely backwards and disrespectful. But it doesn't seem like you care, since we have all told you that you are choosing to do something that is WRONG.

I will pray that you have a change of heart and mind for your own sake and the sake of our beloved Church.

afrenchprincess

Riss I am sorry that you are a drone for the Catholic Church. While I love the church I do not agree witha few teachings this happens to be one of them! That to me does not make me wrong it makes me smart! This does not match my lifestyle and I am very sure that God will let me enter heaven because I will NOT have children! Sheesh!

afrenchprincess

Some of you ladies are the reason why I have to defend being Catholic to some people. Lots of people think that we all don't read the bible and are oblivious to what it truly means to be a Christian. When we pull hairs over having children and birth control. Though I am not happy with what some of you ladies believe/think I will continue to grow as a Catholic and pray for my fellow Catholics that they will not be such drones and think for themselves!

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:3c197c31-c9f5-46eb-8c17-d857726f5c5d">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]Some of you ladies are the reason why I have to defend being Catholic to some people. Lots of people think that we all don't read the bible and are oblivious to what it truly means to be a Christian. When we pull hairs over having children and birth control. Though I am not happy with what some of you ladies believe/think I will continue to grow as a Catholic and pray for my fellow Catholics that they will not be such drones and think for themselves!
Posted by afrenchprincess[/QUOTE]



And then Eve ate the apple. <div>
</div><div>This is offensive. What makes you think we don't "think for ourselves". I use to disagree with a lot of stuff and I actually studied it to learn WHY the church teaches what she does, and learned that I was wrong. The church has stood for 2000 years of unchanging truth. Truth cannot change. Jesus' bride (the church) cannot be in disagreement with Jesus. This isn't "drone" this is truth. <div>
</div><div>This is exactly what the serpent said to Eve...." you will not die, you will be like gods, with knowledge of good and evil"...This is about deciding for yourself what good and bad is.</div><div>
</div><div>God does not fit into our life, we must conform to fit into Him. It's not about convenience...and birth control is NOT splitting hairs. It's about speaking  a language of true gift of self. </div><div>
</div></div>