:: afrenchprincess ::

Riss91

In Response to Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church:
[QUOTE]Riss I am sorry that you are a drone for the Catholic Church. While I love the church I do not agree witha few teachings this happens to be one of them! That to me does not make me wrong it makes me smart! This does not match my lifestyle and I am very sure that God will let me enter heaven because I will NOT have children! Sheesh!
Posted by afrenchprincess[/QUOTE]

In Response to Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church:
[QUOTE]Some of you ladies are the reason why I have to defend being Catholic to some people. Lots of people think that we all don't read the bible and are oblivious to what it truly means to be a Christian. When we pull hairs over having children and birth control. Though I am not happy with what some of you ladies believe/think I will continue to grow as a Catholic and pray for my fellow Catholics that they will not be such drones and think for themselves!
Posted by afrenchprincess[/QUOTE]

I am sorry that you mistakenly equate being a believer with being a drone. You are quite wrong on that. Like many of the other ladies on this board, I have studied and challenged the bible and doctrine of the Church.

I would never, ever spend so much of my time and energy defending something that I hadn't put so much thought into. I was raised sort of "cradle Catholic" and basically learned to hate the Church. That was pretty much the status quo of those around me (even most Catholics). We would show up to mass, barely focus, leave after communion like most of the parish, because quite frankly, none of us truly believed. Or maybe our believe was just shallow. "If I go to mass, receive communion and check off the sacraments, then I will make God happy and get into heaven"

Clearly, that was an empty belief system and it didn't keep my attention. I drifted away from the Church, attended youth groups at other non-Catholic Churches. I dated a Mormon for many years, and learned a lot about their faith.

Then, I met my now husband. At that time, he also had left the Church, studied other religions, studied Theology in college and did his homework. A couple years into our relationship, he returned to the Church. I questioned him. I questioned the religion. I questioned EVERYTHING. With his help, I disected the faith. Speck by speck. And one by one, all those things that I thought made no sense (like birth control) started to sit right. And one idea could be carried over into others - they were all linked. You couldn't falsify one idea, without falsifying them all. That is because truth is truth. And Truth will never be inconsistent with itself.

I can understand those who are still at odds with certain teachings... because I was there. Like you, I guess I was "smart". So, please don't make an assumption that I am not a human being, with free will and a functioning brain. That is quite rude. If you truly think I am a "drone", then challenge me with questions, go ahead - stump me!  I welcome it. Don't just throw out nonchalant insults.This is how my (our) faith grows. Challenging ideas is how we find Truth.

But, when it comes to those things that we can't control/know for sure - like the day of judgment and what God will do with our soul - I think it's foolish and irresponsible to assume that "eh, God will let me in - I haven't done anything that bad". He might. He might not. I'd rather keep my standards as high as possible, and give myself the best chance, then to rationalize away all of those "iffy" situations.

I hope you and your family have a blessed Christmas and New Year.

Jasmine&Rajah

Riss, a standing ovation for your excellent post.  Thank you - and praise the Holy Spirit.

afrenchprincess, I am incredibly offended and saddened by your words and unfounded name-calling.  I say over and over - in "real life" and on this board - that I choose to be Catholic because I agree with the Church and because I truly believe in the Real Presence and other tenets of our faith.  I grew up exposed to many different religions because my family is from a country where Christianity is the minority; I made a decision to follow Catholicism and consider myself blessed to have been able to do so.  So for you to label me - or anyone else here - a "drone" is nothing short of inaccurate and unkind.

Believe me when I say that I, too, have to defend our faith.  I have to explain to my devout Protestant friends that no, not all Catholics think it's acceptable to reject the basic teachings of the One Church that they claim to live by. 

I pray for everyone here - that we may always rise to the standards the Lord has set before us, and that we ALL may have His mercy.

mica178

afrenchprincess, I'd watch it with the name-calling.  It's not very princess-like of you to do.

If you know with all of your heart that you will not welcome children into your life if they appear, then you will be perjuring yourself when you say your Catholic marriage vows.  You will be lying at an altar to your friends, family, and God.  On your wedding day, the day that is supposed to mark your entrance into your newly married life.  Not only would that make you a horrible Catholic, it'd make you a horrible person.

Just food for thought.

bibliophile2010

Riss -- Thank you so much for your most excellent post.

I, too, was really offended by the posts quoted, for many of the reasons that others, especially Riss, have outlined. I'm a convert. I chose to become Catholic because I believed, truly believed with every bit of my heart and soul, that it was the one True, historical Church that Christ founded, and that Christ was truly, fully present in the Eucharist. Once I knew that, I could not live without it any longer. I was like a little kid at Christmas before my first communion.

Going into it, though, there were doctrines -- including, gasp, birth control -- that I was still unsure of or questioned. But I realized one day that I had made a declaration of faith, before God, that I believed everything that the Church taught to be true. I owed it to God to consider those doctrines truly, honestly and prayerfully (not in a cursory way that focuses on me or what's easy or what's "right" according to society). For the most part, I have come to realize how true and beautiful each of those doctrines are.

Are there still things I struggle with? A couple. But I know that the Church teaches the truth, and that, even if I don't fully understand that Truth, if I live it, eventually (whether in this life or the next) God will give me the grace to understand what I don't currently. I want to hold myself to high standards so that I have the best possible chance of spending eternity with God, not presuming that his mercy is enough. I have to do my share, based on what I have been given.

I assure you, I would not be so passionate if I did not passionately believe what I am saying. I'm 100% sure that the other vibrant, passionate ladies on here feel the same way. We know our stuff, we study scripture, work to understand Chruch teachings, and we seek the support of one another in living out our faith. Doesn't sound like a group of drones to me.

I wish you the best in whatever decisions you make. I hope you have a Merry Christmas and pray that God may bless you and your family in the year to come.

lalaith50

I wonder if she'll ever come back. :-( 

to read what you ladies have so eloquently written!

afrenchprincess

Hello Riss and all the other Catholic board Ladies. While you ladies were offended by what I said I was offended as well! I felt that you ladies were judgemental and didn't understand my reasons for not wanting children. Like I had said before I would accept children into my life if that was something that happened. However, I do not want children. When asked will I accept children. Yes! I would accept them. That is not a lie or untruth do I want them No! That is two different things. If I was truly unaccepting of children I would make my FH get a vasectomy and  I would find somebody to give me a tubal. So my question to you Riss how is that lying and being deceitful in myself, family and friends and most importantly the Church?
Thank!

agapecarrie

Your definition of "accept" is not in line with what the church is proclaiming about marriage, which is what we are trying to explain to you. Accepting children is MORE than you are defining it as. It is not simple "oh well, if we have a child, we'll keep it" (as if there is another option). What you have is a permanent intention against children. This is a contraceptive mentality (whether you actually use artificial contraception or not) and it is not true gift of self nor fulfilling the vow of fruitfulness.

The purpose of marriage is children and good of the spouses.

Children teach sacrifice, which humbles us for heaven. God commanded us in Genesis to be fruitful and multiply.

afrenchprincess

agape can you show me proof that what I am doing is not in line with the Church's teachings? And yes actually there would be other options however I would choose not to do it. But there would be other options. We plan on not using artificial contraception.
Also what if my "time" to have children is not commanded by me when I feel that I should have children but it is actually God's will. Wouldn't that be the best thing. Not simply because I am married and that is what is expected of me. But what God has commanded of me even though I do not want to do it. I just look at it as if I am not meant to have children or not God will have his way one way or the other. So, why would/should I stress about it? Especially, since I don't want children.

agapecarrie

I have already offered proof. When God said "Be fruitful and multiply". Theology of the Body for beginners and Good news about sex and marriage by Christopher West. These books will help you unpack the church's teachings. Also, all encyclicals and papal writings on marriage. The catechsim. Especially 1652.

The only way you can conceive is through God's will so your question really doesn't make sense. By the very nature of being married, God has commanded to be fruitful. We can kick and scream and yell "I don't wanna" but that doesn't change the nature of what marriage is.

afrenchprincess

Agape what if you can' be fruitful and multiply? Then what?

afrenchprincess

I'm sorry "can't"

ootmother2

butting in here, french princess

I must have missed the original post but I'm curious about your stand here.

It's nothing personal, trust me, as I am a MOB and am interested in your post simply on an intellectual basis.   You'll get no flames from me, I'm really just curious, if you don't mind

lalaith50

oot-

here's the original post:

http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church

I think the whole "I don't want kids" line is the issue that everyone is discussing...

ootmother2

Thanks, lala, you're a sweetheart!

I knew it was a  ways back but I wasn't connecting.

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_afrenchprincess?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:fb575b5a-58f3-487f-9026-cc6a286f0a31Post:01afdea5-936e-41e6-b48a-77fa513f2401">Re: :: afrenchprincess ::</a>:
[QUOTE]Agape what if you can' be fruitful and multiply? Then what?
Posted by afrenchprincess[/QUOTE]

<div>This question really doesn't have much to do with the actual point being discussed. Infertility is an unfortunate consequence from original sin (and other physical manifestations of many different things). THis is NOT God's original design. It really is a non-sequitor argument.</div><div>
</div><div>
</div>

Jasmine&Rajah

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_afrenchprincess?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:fb575b5a-58f3-487f-9026-cc6a286f0a31Post:9dcae647-3e75-48bb-83cd-f2afeed14b74">Re: :: afrenchprincess ::</a>:
[QUOTE]So my question to you Riss how is that lying and being deceitful in myself, family and friends and most importantly the Church? Thank!
Posted by afrenchprincess[/QUOTE]

I'm not Riss, but please allow me to answer this question with something you yourself stated, in the other thread

[QUOTE]<em>It looks like I may have to umm not say that I do not intend on having children so that it will not cause me not to get married in the church.</em>
Posted by afrenchprincess[/QUOTE]<em>
</em>
That would be lying - an act of deceit which would invalidate the Sacrament, as we all discussed with you before. 

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_afrenchprincess?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:fb575b5a-58f3-487f-9026-cc6a286f0a31Post:01afdea5-936e-41e6-b48a-77fa513f2401">Re: :: afrenchprincess ::</a>:
[QUOTE]Agape what if you can' be fruitful and multiply? Then what?
Posted by afrenchprincess[/QUOTE]

I agree with agape that this question is neither here nor there, as the saying goes . . . but marriages where couples cannot conceive can still be valid, so long as the couple remains fully open to life.

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_afrenchprincess?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:fb575b5a-58f3-487f-9026-cc6a286f0a31Post:9dcae647-3e75-48bb-83cd-f2afeed14b74">Re: :: afrenchprincess ::</a>:
[QUOTE]While you ladies were offended by what I said I was offended as well! I felt that you ladies were judgemental . . . Posted by afrenchprincess[/QUOTE]

What you said - calling Riss a "drone" - was far more offensive.  Why?  Because the only thing that anyone was judging was the action you claimed you were going to take.  No one was judging the state of your soul.  That is the Lord's place.  As a Christian, you know that we're all called to speak the truth to one another in love (Ephesians 4) and to help and restore one another where sin is concerned (Galatians 6:1, 2 Thessalonians 3:15, 2 Timothy 4:2 - among others!)  Not to mention the Spiritual Works of Mercy.

Ultimately, as Romans 14 says, it is "before a man's own master (God) that he stands or falls."  This is entirely your decision; you are responsible for your own life before the Lord.  Only the One is perfect, and we all know what our options from Him are (Sirach 15: 13-21).  We're all just offering the guidance that you asked for.

I hope you stay on this board and participate, going forward.  I wish you nothing but the best, and a marriage that glorifies Christ.  God bless you.

ootmother2

AGH!

I knew I had answered this one before.

FrenchPrincess, I don't know if Riss is right or wrong but I do have a great deal respect for her and the viewpoints she presents on  here. Another poster, not at all so I will choose to back Riss on the subject.

Riss91

Thanks so much ladies for chiming in for me! As always, you've done a great job at explaining and sharing our faith in a warm and helpful way.

afrenchprincess - I appreciate you coming back with the intent to truly understand where we (and the Church) are coming from. That shows a great deal of maturity!

As the other ladies said, infertility isn't treated the same way as a the mere decision that you do not want children. All of the references you've been given are great sources for information on that topic.

This is directly from the Catechism.
1652 "By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory."

Children are the supreme gift of marriage and contribute greatly to the good of the parents themselves. God himself said: "It is not good that man should be alone," and "from the beginning [he] made them male and female"; wishing to associate them in a special way in his own creative work, God blessed man and woman with the words: "Be fruitful and multiply."

2363 The spouses' union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life. These two meanings or values of marriage cannot be separated without altering the couple's spiritual life and compromising the goods of marriage and the future of the family.

The conjugal love of man and woman thus stands under the twofold obligation of fidelity and fecundity (procreation/fruitfulness).

2366 Fecundity is a gift, an end of marriage, for conjugal love naturally tends to be fruitful. A child does not come from outside as something added on to the mutual love of the spouses, but springs from the very heart of that mutual giving, as its fruit and fulfillment. So the Church, which is "on the side of life,"¹⁵¹ teaches that "it is necessary that each and every marriage act remain ordered per se to the procreation of human life."¹⁵² "This particular doctrine, expounded on numerous occasions by the Magisterium, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act."¹⁵³

2367 Called to give life, spouses share in the creative power and fatherhood of God.¹⁵⁴ "Married couples should regard it as their proper mission to transmit human life and to educate their children; they should realize that they are thereby cooperating with the love of God the Creator and are, in a certain sense, its interpreters. They will fulfill this duty with a sense of human and Christian responsibility."¹⁵⁵

2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood.

2369 "By safeguarding both these essential aspects, the unitive and the procreative, the conjugal act preserves in its fullness the sense of true mutual love and its orientation toward man's exalted vocation to parenthood."¹⁵⁷

Also this is an official letter from the pope to the bishops:
54. But no reason, however grave, may be put forward by which anything intrinsically against nature may become conformable to nature and morally good. Since, therefore, the conjugal act is destined primarily by nature for the begetting of children, those who in exercising it deliberately frustrate its natural power and purpose sin against nature and commit a deed which is shameful and intrinsically vicious. (Casti Connubii, paragraph 54)

This is an excerpt from Canon Law, that basically states that if you lie at the altar and say you will accept children, but you truly won't, your marriage is invalidated.
Can. 1101 §1. The internal consent of the mind is presumed to conform to the words and signs used in celebrating the marriage.

§2. If, however, either or both of the parties by a positive act of the will exclude marriage itself, some essential element of marriage, or some essential property of marriage, the party contracts invalidly.

 

Also to reiterate Jasmine's point - we are called to "judge" each other's actions -for their own sake. We do this to help you, not hurt you. Though a side-effect may be that you feel badly about the things we say. The purpose is to help you and your soul, to prevent you from damaging yourself, because if we do not, we are in some way attached to that behavior and as a result can be held responsible if we do not step in. I do realize that sometimes our passion comes off as aggression which is not an easy way to receive this information. We are NOT called to judge the state of your soul. We should not say "you are going to hell if you do this". That is not our place or our decision and we would be wrong in making such judgments.

I know that was incredibly long, but I hope it helped! Please let us know if you have any other questions.

afrenchprincess

Ok you said that you already have proof by stating in Genesis to be exact God said to Adam and Eve be to ",,,fruitful and multiply"  We have already done that! Haven't we already fulfilled that? Secondly,  we are failing to realize the context and time period of the this and the Bible. Children were needed then for various purposes.

mica178

** headdesk **

Riss91

Well, I've given you many references to the catchism of the Catholic Church. It seems to me that you have taken your own interpretations of the bible and other texts and come up with your own personal Christian religion of sorts. That's absoultely fine to have your mode of thinking, but you need to realize that this mode of thinking is NOT in line with the Catholic Church. So, it might be best for you to identify with another Christian denomination that more closely fits your beliefs.

Our point is that when you want to be married according to a certain faith, you need to adhere to the rules of that faith. If you disagree with a very important rule and requirement for a valid marriage in that faith, then you aren't eligible to be married there. It would be best to be married in a faith that you are in agreement with. That wouldn't require you to lie up at an altar in front of a priest, God and your family.

Think of the rules as laws. If you break a law, you can be held accountable and face consequences. If there were a country/goverment that had laws that you disagreed with, and were likely to break those laws, you might avoid moving there because you would constantly be dodging the law. You'd consider moving to a country where the laws weren't contradictory to how you live your life. But, if you do choose to move to a country, and you break the law, you can't say "well, I disagree with that law, so you can't put me in jail". That's just not how it works.

newlyseliski

Frankly, I think the fact that entering into the sacrament of marriage with the intent to nullify the vows that you make before God, the priest, your friends and family is dishonest.  This has likely already been brought up (probably a dozen times) in the previous thread... but as part of your vows... you and your future husband need to answer affirmatively to all three of the following questions:

Catholic wedding vows are usually preceded by three questions from the priest:

"(Name) and (name), have you come here freely and without reservation to give yourselves to each other in marriage?"

 

"Will you honor each other as man and wife for the rest of your lives?"

 

"Will you accept children lovingly from God, and bring them up according to the law of Christ and his Church?"

The bride and groom respond "I will" or "yes" (Rite of Marriage #34).

(from http://catholicweddinghelp.com/topics/catholic-wedding-vows.htm)

You can split hairs all you want about the necessity of children or what constitutes openness to life... but I don't recommend making a covenant promise you can't keep.  The vows in the rite of marriage are not malleable to one's liking or preferences.  I think that Riss and agape did a pretty thorough job spelling out Church teaching on the subject!

bibliophile2010

I get it. You don't want kids. I think that if it was God's will for your life to not have kids, he would make that happen in another way -- give you fertility problems (and even then, He may well be calling you to adopt), or call you to single or religious life.

I just don't think that if you cannnot accept children lovingly (v. well, I'm pregnant, I'll make do) as a gift from God that you can, in good faith, be married in the Church. Can you in good faith space children? Yes. Can you in good faith cease to have children if it becomes medically or financially necessary? Yes. Can you go into marriage with the premanant resolution (not biological impediment) to never have children? No.

If you only see the Bible's teachings as relavent to a particular time or culture you need to brush up on how we should be interpreting the Bible -- which is on multiple levels, but ultimately as our spiritual guide. The Church teaches that Adam and Eve were many things: the first humans (endowed with souls), the parents of all humanity (even with the sticky issues), the bringers of original sin into the world, types of Jesus and Mary, and the first married couple. Their marriage was the first sacramental marriage, and it offers some of the first teachings of what marriage should be -- which includes being fruitful.

Riss outlined TONS of stuff from the Catechism and Cannon law, and you chose to ignore all of that to focus on Adam and Eve. No, we don't need children to help work the fields, but we do need children for the many spiritual gifts and graces they give us, for the fellowship they provide to families, and for the gifts they are to the world.

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_afrenchprincess?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:fb575b5a-58f3-487f-9026-cc6a286f0a31Post:b8f1a35a-04cc-4f81-88f9-42506ab90f74">Re: :: afrenchprincess ::</a>:
[QUOTE]Ok you said that you already have proof by stating in Genesis to be exact God said to Adam and Eve be to ",,,fruitful and multiply"  We have already done that! Haven't we already fulfilled that? Secondly,  we are failing to realize the context and time period of the this and the Bible. Children were needed then for various purposes.
Posted by afrenchprincess[/QUOTE]

<div>Oh for goodness sake.</div><div>
</div><div>If you don't understand that Adam and Even, not only existed as humans but are the prototype for humanity and the beginning of the Christian salvation story, then you really don't understand much about Catholicism.</div><div>
</div><div>
</div>

divinemsbee

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_afrenchprincess?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:fb575b5a-58f3-487f-9026-cc6a286f0a31Post:53c35e15-7529-42dd-9cbb-0e8d5dcf6a4f">Re: :: afrenchprincess ::</a>:
[QUOTE]Well, I've given you many references to the catchism of the Catholic Church. It seems to me that you have taken your own interpretations of the bible and other texts and come up with your own personal Christian religion of sorts. <strong>That's absoultely fine to have your mode of thinking, but you need to realize that this mode of thinking is NOT in line with the Catholic Church. So, it might be best for you to identify with another Christian denomination that more closely fits your beliefs. </strong>
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

I know I'm not on here a lot, but this is what I've been thinking since she started posting on here. She seems to have a lot of beliefs that more closely identify with several Protestant sects (especially when it comes to personal Bible interpretation). I think it may be time for her to look into other Christian denominations that more closely tailor to her beliefs if she wants to get married in a Christian church, because Catholicism just doesn't work the way she wants it to.

Calypso1977

Secondly, we are failing to realize the context and time period of the this and the Bible. Children were needed then for various purposes.

yes, im sure God wanted us to multiply for the sole purpose of having plenty of farmhands to work the land.

doctabroccoli

I don't know how I missed this thread this weekend......

Afrenchprincess -
For the record, we welcome thoughtful discussion around here.  Heck, there are sometimes things about Catholicism I challenge from time to time.  But we do not welcome name-calling as you did to Riss.

afrenchprincess

Thanks for this text on the vows newlyseliski! Very Helpful! I see now that the vows are/state:

"Will you accept children lovingly from God, and bring them up according to the law of Christ and his Church?"

The bride and groom respond "I will" or "yes" (Rite of Marriage #34).
Can you explain to me what 'Lovingly' accept children from a Catholic perspective is? As I am being told that my defintion does not fit the Catholic definition of "Lovimgly accept" I am being serious when I say that I don't understand the difference. Accepting is accepting right? Or explain to me why I am confused. And more importantly what it means in the Catholic perspective. Thanks!

Riss91

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_afrenchprincess?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:fb575b5a-58f3-487f-9026-cc6a286f0a31Post:5d5f2fa0-0564-4911-b6ef-8f8fee392fff">Re: :: afrenchprincess ::</a>:
[QUOTE]Thanks for this text on the vows newlyseliski! Very Helpful! I see now that the vows are/state: "Will you accept children lovingly from God, and bring them up according to the law of Christ and his Church?" The bride and groom respond "I will" or "yes" (Rite of Marriage #34). Can you explain to me what 'Lovingly' accept children from a Catholic perspective is? As I am being told that my defintion does not fit the Catholic definition of "Lovimgly accept" I am being serious when I say that I don't understand the difference. Accepting is accepting right? Or explain to me why I am confused. And more importantly what it means in the Catholic perspective. Thanks!
Posted by afrenchprincess[/QUOTE]

This is what it means. These are all from the Catechism (the Catholic Church's rule book)

<strong>1652</strong> "By its very nature<strong><u> the institution of marriage and married love</u></strong> <strong><u>is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring</u></strong> and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory."

<p><a name="2363"></a><strong>2363</strong> The spouses' union achieves the twofold end of marriage:<strong><u> the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life. These two meanings or values of marriage cannot be separated</u></strong> without altering the couple's spiritual life and compromising the goods of marriage and the future of the family.

<strong>2366</strong> Fecundity is a gift, an <em>end of marriage</em>, for conjugal love naturally tends to be fruitful. A child does not come from outside as something added on to the mutual love of the spouses, but springs from the very heart of that mutual giving, as its fruit and fulfillment. So the Church, which is "on the side of life,"^{<font size="2">151</font>} teaches that<strong> <u>"it is necessary that each and every marriage act remain ordered <em>per se</em> to the procreation of human life."</u>^{<font size="2">152</font>}</strong> "This particular doctrine, expounded on numerous occasions by the Magisterium, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, <strong>which man on his own initiative may not break, between <u>the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act</u>."^{<font size="2">153</font>} </strong></p>
<strong><font color="#000000">2367</font></strong> <strong><u>Called to give life</u></strong>, spouses share in the creative power and fatherhood of God.^{<font size="2">154</font>} "<strong><u>Married couples should regard it as their proper mission to transmit human life</u></strong> and to educate their children; they should realize that they are thereby <em>cooperating with</em> the love of <em>God the Creator</em> and are, in a certain sense, its interpreters. They will fulfill this duty with a sense of human and Christian responsibility."^{<font size="2">155</font>}

agapecarrie

We have been giving you the resources, the "proof" you ask for several times over. We've repeated ourselves several times over what it means. 

A permanent intention against children invalidates ANY marriage. (including non-Catholics and Non-Baptized). It is writtien into natural law that this is the purpose of marriage. 

afrenchprincess

Riss91 A LOT to ponder!!!! Thanks for this! Trying to find a way to get around this. A lot to think about.