:: afrenchprincess ::

afrenchprincess

Riss91 If I may ask a personal question. Do you have children? If so what/when was the point that you decided to have children? If you do not have children what is holding you back from actively persuing having children?
When do you know decided when that time is right for you and your spouse?

Kamakanani

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_afrenchprincess?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:fb575b5a-58f3-487f-9026-cc6a286f0a31Post:cff7042a-ca1f-4a61-8f82-28e3a6abbdf1">Re: :: afrenchprincess ::</a>:
[QUOTE]Riss91 A LOT to ponder!!!! Thanks for this! Trying to find a way to get around this. A lot to think about.
Posted by afrenchprincess[/QUOTE]
A way to get around what, exactly?  The catechism of the Catholic Church?  Well, if I wanted to get around the laws of my state/country, I would leave for another that better aligned with what I thought was right.  The catechism is the lifeblood, the teaching and the "laws" of the Catholic Church.  It IS the Church.  It would be like a Jew trying to "get around" the laws of the Torah.  It just doesn't work that way.

lalaith50

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_afrenchprincess?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:fb575b5a-58f3-487f-9026-cc6a286f0a31Post:cff7042a-ca1f-4a61-8f82-28e3a6abbdf1">Re: :: afrenchprincess ::</a>:
[QUOTE]Riss91 A LOT to ponder!!!! Thanks for this! Trying to find a way to get around this. A lot to think about.
Posted by afrenchprincess[/QUOTE]
wow. just, wow. "A way to get around this?" <div>Can you just admit that you don't agree with the Catholid Church's teaching and be done with it?</div>

Riss91

There is no way around this in a Catholic marriage. The way around it is to NOT be married in the Catholic Church.

Do you have children? No, not yet

If you do not have children what is holding you back from actively persuing having children? We haven't tried because my husband was out of work for over a year. he just recently got a job and once he is settled in, we will start trying.

When do you know decided when that time is right for you and your spouse? I am being very honest here, and I've not really talked about this, so please be considerate. Before we were even married, we always talked about having children, even having a larger family. I am from a larger family, he is an only child. Seeing me with my family made him wish he had many siblings. The thought of children was fun and exciting.

Once we got married, I actually became a bit terrified. Actually, only terrified of pregnancy and birth. The physical pain of it all. I am a wimp when it comes to medical things. I faint at the sight of blood. I am still struggling with this. Even 6 months ago I was thinking "I don't think I can do this". I decided to start praying regularly about it. Asking for strength. I always knew that the reward of a child was worth the pain. But taking that step was (and still is) terrifying. But I have to trust in Him. I've also reflected on Mary and how willing she was. When she found out she would be the Mother of God, she was very brave. Luke 1:38 "Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.” Then the angel departed from her."

She gave herself over to God. She trusted Him. I am still working up my courage, but it's getting easier each week. I also look at my husband and the thought of taking something like fatherhood, or the joy of children away from him, brings me to tears. How could I do that to the man I love?

afrenchprincess

Yes! Lalaith and Kamakanani I do  have a problem with this teaching in the Catholic church. And yes I am trying to find my way around this as in understanding and knowledge and acceptance. This is HARD this is very difficult for me! This is not what I had planned.

Riss91

I believe lala and kama (and myself) were under the impression that you meant you were trying to figure out how you can "skirt the law", rather than working your way through this.

It is a big important topic. Creating life isn't something to take lightly. It is good to really think and pray about it.

But, ultimately, if you come to the conclusion that you are not going to try and have children, you shouldn't be married in the Catholic Church. Hopefully, that much you agree with by now :-)

agapecarrie

AFP, 

I'm begging you to please read TOB for beginners and Good news...both already suggested several times. These will help you understand, I can promise that.

Another prayer you can pray is to ask God to conform your heart and will to His. 

Think about it: God could have given us the power to create a mountain, or a lake, or something that is perceived as a magnificent beauty. But he didn't, rather, he went above and beyond that to give us the power to actually take part in creating human beings. A soul that will exist for the rest of eternity. What a huge gift. To make a person that is the incarnation of love between you and your husband. To see your love in the flesh...combined for eternity...and to give that love a name. 

After several years you could be feel completely the opposite and desperately long for children.  It may not seem possible right now, but things can change. 

bibliophile2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_afrenchprincess?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:fb575b5a-58f3-487f-9026-cc6a286f0a31Post:29bd609e-f61d-471c-ac56-687813d9a9a6">Re: :: afrenchprincess ::</a>:
[QUOTE]Riss91 If I may ask a personal question. Do you have children? If so what/when was the point that you decided to have children? If you do not have children what is holding you back from actively persuing having children? When do you know decided when that time is right for you and your spouse?
Posted by afrenchprincess[/QUOTE]

***Warning -- news reveal ***

I'm not Riss, but I just wanted to share some thoughts.

I'm about 10 weeks along in my first pregnancy. Obviously, if you look at my ticker, my husband and I have only been married a few months. We always knew that, God willing, we hoped to get pregnant in the first year of marriage. We intentionally waited a few months -- and used NFP successfully to that end --  for a variety of reasons (insurance, work, health).

As the last of our reasons for avoiding dwindled, I began praying and pondering about whether we should continue to avoid pregnancy. I felt like I was leaning toward not avoid, but was unsure. One day, H and I went to daily mass and arrived early. I was on my knees before the Tabernacle and was overwhelmed with sure knowledge that we no longer had reason to wait.

H and I had a long talk about it, and agreed that we did not have valid reasons to wait. I was still in my pre-Peak infertile window (Phase I for all you ST gals). Then, when the fertile time rolled around -- I freaked (Riss, I can sooo relate to everything you said above about it sounding good until it looks you in the eye). I told my husband that I couldn't do it. I just wasn't ready. He could not have been more loving and supportive and understanding. He just loved me.

Maybe all I needed was that, knowing that I was loved wholly and entirely by my husband, my fertility and all, my insecurities and all, not as a thing (a sex object or a baby carrier), but me. All of me. It's not like I really thought those things about my husband, but that's what women want -- to be loved, really, truly loved.

If you do that math, you'll figure out that we conceived our first month of not avoiding.  We are so excited and joy-filled. It the idea of having a baby scary? Heck yeah. Will it always be easy? Certainly not. Would I want it any other way? No way.

When I say I give it up to God, I really throw myself at God with my prayers. Sometimes I get a resounding answer like I got that day. Sometimes I get an answer in the way things work out (or don't). Sometimes I just get comforted by the knowledge that I'm not going through this life alone. But for me, it is always worth it.

Accepting children lovingly from God is like that. It is giving it up to God and letting him give you answers -- if there are good reasons for avoiding (and there <strong>are</strong> plenty of good reasons for it), avoiding is in accord with his will. If there are not, that's when the pouring your heart out to God begins. If the answer is to have children, you bear and raise them with all the hope, faith, love, and prayer you can muster and hope that God will give your family the grace to succeed from there.

I know there's a lot there, and that is my answer. It might not be everyone's answer, but I really pray that you find your way to understanding God and his truth. If there's anything I -- or any of us can do -- I truly believe that we are all happy to help you. I will certainly keep you in my prayers.

professorscience

I think the biggest issue I have here is the problem(s) that will arise down the road for you and your FI.  You said in the other thread that he wants kids, but accepts your wishes.  I know that he certainly loves you and hopes that, down the road, you will change your mind, but I can't imagine entering into something as important as a marriage without nailing down this very important tenet.

I was not Catholic when I met, started dating, or became engaged to my husband.  I can't imagine marrying him if our opinions on children had been different -- whether I wanted them, he wanted them, or what.  I just can't imagine depriving this man I love so much (or being deprived) of children.

Princess, I really encourage you and your FI to really, really, really pray on this and discuss it in great detail.  I hope that you will take some of the advice given here, do some reading, and really understand why you are asked if you will accept children.  Then I hope that you will really listen to your FI about why he wants children, and I hope you'll be receptive and find it in your heart to grant him that wish -- willingly, not just with a, "Well, if it happens, whatevs..." attitude.

And because I can't resist: From a purely biological standpoint, it is the goal of any species to perpetuate its DNA.  That's how species survive.  #scienceisawesome.

Karadee1

I just wanted to add to all of the wonderful things everyone else has said. I am not as well versed in the Catechism, though I am very thankful many women on this board are.

It is not always easy to give up your wants in order to conform to the will of God. I have fought hard against His will many times in my life, after which I have repented. But if you really search your heart, and offer prayer, to understand what God wants for you in your life, you may not like what you find, but is beneficial to pray for acceptance than to run and hide.

doctabroccoli

Bibli!!!!!  Congrats!

afrenchprincess

Thanks for sharing Riss. I have similar fears too! My very good friend almost died giving birth.Literrally, on the OP table died. I was there when she had a c-section complicated delivery and pregnancy. She didn have the child's father there so I was there. So all my fears about pregnancy and delivery were heightened even more :-/ Secondly, I fear what children will do to my relationship. I have read many stats that say that children will bring about unhappiness in marriage. Something like for every child you have the more unhappy you can get (sociology study I read). Even if you don't believe that I see HOW much stress children are. My friends with children barely have time for themseleves let alone their spouse! I see so many people say they loose track of their relationship and divorce because they are so focused on their children and their needs. I know that many of them have problems already but children "seem" to make it worse. Again these are my observations.
Lastly, children require a lot from you. And I will admit I am spoiled. On weekends I get up when I choose,go where I want to go and do what I want to do. Children will put limits on my freedom and I don't know how I feel about giving that up. But maybe when I have children that will change. I mean obviously it would have to change. All these things make me very fearful and not want to have children.
Also, my FH says he's ok with not having children but I know that he thinks/hopes I will change my mind. He is older than me by a few years and comes from a culture where children are desires and wanted. I feel kind of bad now if I was to dey him that :-( Anyway that's enough about me and kids!

afrenchprincess

Agape what is TOB book?

agapecarrie

Theology of the body

agapecarrie

You will have to sacrifice so much of yourself for your own marriage, with or without children. That is whAt chilrdren do-- help us rid ourselves of selfishness and teach us to sacrifice. Sounds like you are reading a bunch of secular stuff that doesn't honor the dig it's that life is. That's what our culture has become --- very selfish and instant gratification, and not putting any thought to the benefits of sacrifice. A couple has to make priorities to keep their marriage first. If its not kids, it will be something else that will come up that messes with priorities. The kids are not the problem, the couple is the problem.

professorscience

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_afrenchprincess?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:fb575b5a-58f3-487f-9026-cc6a286f0a31Post:bddba6d6-35f4-4492-b080-363089e6fab5">Re: :: afrenchprincess ::</a>:
[QUOTE]Thanks for sharing Riss. I have similar fears too! My very good friend almost died giving birth.Literrally, on the OP table died. I was there when she had a c-section complicated delivery and pregnancy. She didn have the child's father there so I was there. So all my fears about pregnancy and delivery were heightened even more :-/ Secondly, I fear what children will do to my relationship. I have read many stats that say that children will bring about unhappiness in marriage. Something like for every child you have the more unhappy you can get (sociology study I read). Even if you don't believe that I see HOW much stress children are. My friends with children barely have time for themseleves let alone their spouse! I see so many people say they loose track of their relationship and divorce because they are so focused on their children and their needs. I know that many of them have problems already but children "seem" to make it worse. Again these are my observations. Lastly, children require a lot from you. And I will admit I am spoiled. On weekends I get up when I choose,go where I want to go and do what I want to do. Children will put limits on my freedom and I don't know how I feel about giving that up. But maybe when I have children that will change. I mean obviously it would have to change. All these things make me very fearful and not want to have children. Also, my FH says he's ok with not having children but I know that he thinks/hopes I will change my mind. He is older than me by a few years and comes from a culture where children are desires and wanted. I feel kind of bad now if I was to dey him that :-( Anyway that's enough about me and kids!
Posted by afrenchprincess[/QUOTE]

<div>I don't think your fears are unfounded.  Yes, there are complicated pregnancies, and yes, sometimes women even die.  The likelihood, especially these days, is so low.</div><div>
</div><div>And yes, children bring a whole new dynamic to a relationship, and it can be hard to find time as just a couple, but I've <strong>never ever</strong> heard of a relationship ending <strong>just</strong> because of children.  I think that if this is one of your big fears, it is something you and your FI have to work out <strong>before</strong> you are married, because I can promise you it will cause problems down the road.</div><div>
</div><div>Your last concern is a maturity issue.  And I don't mean to say that it's a bad thing.  I think other girls have mentioned slightly similar fears with regards to having children.  It's one thing to not be <strong>ready</strong> for children, but to completely shut yourself off from the possibility, and deprive the person you love in the process, is another thing altogether.</div><div>
</div><div>I'm really glad you're at least having this conversation with us, and I really hope you and your FI can work this out.</div><div>
</div><div>Edit: I should clarify, I've heard of marriages ending because of disagreements over children (when/whether to have them, how to raise them), but not simply because the couple had children.</div>

Riss91

I know many ladies who have felt the same way and I agree with agape and professor.

I think the sacrifice you make for your children will come back to you twofold. Whenever I've sacrificed for someone else, the mere joy that I've brought to them is more than worth it.

It is a lot to give of yourself, and it absolutely can increase tension in your marriage. But, I think if you have a strong relationship and you are open, honest and considerate of each others' needs, having children can make your relationship stronger.

Also, once you give birth to them - they are around forever, but the troubling and difficult times only make up a small portion of that time. I look at my parents now, and how much they love having their adult children around and I know they don't regret a thing. Yes, it was difficult for them and there were really rough moments (they both reference "year 17") but most of that is pretty much forgotten. Time heals all "wounds" right?

Anyway, I am glad you are taking the time to think through this. It is really important. I highly recommend the readings mentioned which will hopefully offer great insight.

caitriona87

First, I just wanted to commend you for being willing to look deeper into this issue.

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_afrenchprincess?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:fb575b5a-58f3-487f-9026-cc6a286f0a31Post:bddba6d6-35f4-4492-b080-363089e6fab5">Re: :: afrenchprincess ::</a>:
[QUOTE] Lastly, children require a lot from you. And I will admit I am spoiled. On weekends I get up when I choose,go where I want to go and do what I want to do. Children will put limits on my freedom and I don't know how I feel about giving that up.
Posted by afrenchprincess[/QUOTE]

I also think I can speak to this a bit. As long as some girls have told their stories about TTA or lack thereof--I got married quite young, and my husband was still in school. I had patched together two part-time jobs to support us, one of which involved lots of physical labor. In short, when we got married, we had serious reasons to TTA. At the same time, I had lots of extremely selfish reasons. I just had the real reasons to hide behind.

We had always talked about having a big family, but it was something he actually desired. I saw it as something I should do in order to be a good Catholic, and wasn't it magnanimous of me to be willing! Wasn't God fortunate to have my willingness! *major sarcasm*

The serious reasons gradually began to melt away--first my husband graduated, then he got a job with good benefits, then my job situation improved so I was no longer hopping between two jobs sometimes three times a day. I was terrified, because now my facade of being obedient to God's will was slipping away. The rubber would now meet the road. All I could think of was the vacations I wanted to take and working out I wanted to do, clothes I wanted to wear, the STUPIDEST things like sushi and cocktails...all the stuff a baby would "ruin." I kept most of this to myself, but there was some tension between MH and I over when to jump in. Finally, one night at Mass, after watching two of our friends be baptized and receiving Our Lord, I realized I had no more excuses--but also that the desire had begun to form in me. I did want a child, even though I was afraid.

We conceived our second month of not postponing. We were alternately excited and terrified throughout, but mostly overjoyed. Some of you know the ending here--after ten wonderful days, Our Lord called our son home. I say all this not to be morbid or a downer, but just to emphasize how, like PP's said, part of the reason God gives us children is to call us out of our self-centeredness, to school us in the life of Heaven, which is the outpouring of self for the good of the other. I was afraid of the sleepless nights, of giving up 'freedom,' not being able to do what I wanted. But now? We can sleep as late as we want. Go wherever we want. Do whatever we want. <em>But now God has shown us the emptiness of those selfish desires. </em>Those things are worthless. The education that parents of living children receive through their hard work and sacrifice, we have received through our lack of it, when we would love nothing more.

The world's freedom is always 'freedom from.' From commitment, from responsibility, from rules, from consequences. The freedom of God is 'freedom to'--to do what we <em>ought</em>, not what we want; to grow in holiness, to the full stature of Christ; to possess oneself only in order to give it away.

agapecarrie

caitriona, that was one of the most profound and wise things I've ever read.

I don't know if you have any calling or vocation to counseling or giving spiritual direction, but at the very least I hope to God you share this when you are given opportunities. 

chelseamb11

WOw Caitriona, I never knew.  I am so sorry for your loss, but thank you for sharing such an insight.

AFrenchPrincess: (wow your name bugs me as I am a French teacher and French stuff is pretty much my thing)... You attitude astounds me.  It pains me, literally pains me that you do not see how ridiculous you are acting.  You sound like a 14 year old who just got caught smoking and you're trying to figure out how to not get caught next time.  I don't get why you feel so strongly about being married in the Catholic Church when you don't even believe in its teachings.  You said yourself that your reasoning to marry in the Church is because you know Catholic marriages have the highest success rate or something like that.  Having a Catholic ceremony isn't just this magic potion or magic wand that will *POOF* make your marriage last a lifetime.  Believe me, the Church doesn't have that power.  What is different about the Church compared to other denominations is the belief process and the marriage preparation.  Most people who are united in matrimony in the Catholic Church have addressed all of these insecurities you have BEFORE they are married.  They also truly believe what the Church teaches and follow it, trusting that this is THE Church that Jesus started, therefore its doctrine is God's word.  It's not the piece of paper that the Catholic Church gievs you that makes your marriage last... it's the attitude and beliefs you have going into the marriage that makes it last. 

You, my friend, do not share that attitude or those beliefs that are comparable to the marriages that last through the Catholic Church.  I'm not saying that non-Catholic marriages don't last (because many do).  It just seems to me that you think your marriage will alst forever based on external factors when, in fact, it needs to come from within.

I implore you to talk to a priest (not even necessarily the priest who is marrying you) and be honest about all of your feelings.  He will not go telling people about your fears/beliefs.  But he can hopefully help guide you on the path that is right for you.

If you do not believe everything the Catholic Church teaches, that is fine.  You are free to believe what you wish. I can assure you that getting married in the Catholic Chruch right now will be no different for you and will have no different longevity for you than marrying in a Protestant Church.  How long a marriage lasts is not dictated by the piece of paper stating where you got married.

I was praying for you for a long time and even though I stopped for awhile, I will continue once again to pray for you.  I wish you nothing but the best.  But stop short-changing yourself and your faith.  Be secure in your relationship with your future spouse and with God.

lalaith50

wow, caitriona, that was beautiful! Thanks so much for sharing!

(and yes... no sushi and cocktails are two of my little reasons for being just a little bit afraid of having kids! :-)  )

doctabroccoli

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_afrenchprincess?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:fb575b5a-58f3-487f-9026-cc6a286f0a31Post:46cee484-0810-424b-8096-4b41d372c91a">Re: :: afrenchprincess ::</a>:
[QUOTE]no sushi and cocktails are two of my little reasons for being just a little bit afraid of having kids! :-)  )
Posted by lalaith50[/QUOTE]

Ditto :).  And thank you, Cait, that was awesomely written.

lmeade62

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_afrenchprincess?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:fb575b5a-58f3-487f-9026-cc6a286f0a31Post:04402722-ddea-4813-95bb-f5fc03127968">Re: :: afrenchprincess ::</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: :: afrenchprincess :: : . I'm about 10 weeks along in my first pregnancy. Obviously, if you look at my ticker, my husband and I have only been married a few months. We always knew that, God willing, we hoped to get pregnant in the first year of marriage. We intentionally waited a few months -- and used NFP successfully to that end --  for a variety of reasons (insurance, work, health). 
Posted by bibliophile2010[/QUOTE]

<div>Too cool! Congratulations to you!!!!!!! What a beautiful story...</div><div>
</div><div>I'm really kind of speechless on the main topic here. I think we've all stated from time to time that there are things about Church doctrines that we struggle with. I wasn't born Catholic - I came to the faith originally because of my husband, but I chose it because it felt right and true. And I love being Catholic despite those struggles and disagreements. It sings to me. It resonates for me in ways I can't even articulate. If it didn't, honestly? I wouldn't defend it and I sure as heck wouldn't lie to remain a part of it - I'd find a different faith.</div><div>
</div><div>My husband is 53 and I'm 49. He has a sixteen year old son, and honestly, in many ways we're eager for him to be off to college! The very idea of having children at our advanced age was extremely daunting...but by the same token, I had never ever been with someone with whom I had wanted to have children, until I met him. When I found out I was post-menopausal, I was devastated...because it meant the possibility - however scary - was gone forever, and I would never, ever, carry and mother a child of my own. I regret the years before I was Catholic when I used birth control, even though I thought it was the best decision *at the time*. I firmly suspect that that is exactly what I went into menopause early. But if a miracle happened and somehow we were able to have a child, WOW.</div><div>
</div><div>Anyway, I'm rambling, but I just wanted to congratulate bibliophile and dance up and down for you. YAY!</div><div>
</div><div>Linda</div>