Oh goddess, it's slow.

noelle24

Yuodel: my roommate says she and a friend of hers have a condo in hell, and will jet ski on rivers of lava.  Want to join us?

tlv204

Ok you're right,  clearly you know more about the Bible than I do.  But is there really anyone alive who has not broken a single "rule" set forth by the Bible?  I realize many people follow some rules of the Bible and not others, which I think is hypocritical but anyway, I just don't understand how it is possible to take the Bible so literally when it has clear inconsistencies in it, not to mention how times have changed and much of it does not apply anymore.

ricksang

This is why the Bible comparision= fail to me. We never get an answer as to how being gay hurts anyone personally.

noelle24

I also don't get that ricks.  I mean, people can believe whatever they want to believe.  And if a church doesn't want to recognize a gay marriage, I don't see the need to force them.  But why do they get to force their beliefs on others by dictating the more "worldy" legal aspects of marriage (i.e., not legalizing gay marriage)? It just doesn't make sense.

yuodelj

I've got a question. What would you say to someone who's church leader suddenly decided that they wanted to accept gay marriage? Specifically to accomidate the liberal feelings of todays society? After going to the same church and sharing in the same community for a lifetime....what now? This happened to my MIL......She ended up not going to church anymore. I felt bad for her....

KA2

@ sucrets Matthew 15:1-20"That which enters into the mouth doesn't defile the man; but that which proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man."This was in response to the Pharisees saying that the disciples of Jesus did not obey the law and He responded saying that a man is not defiled by what he eats but rather it is what he says that defiles him. 

yuodelj

Noelle....sounds fun! :-)

mwhitson14

I'm just going to jump in here and say, KA, I understand your points because I was raised the same way, to believe in what you are saying. However, I don't feel that my views about religion should be allowed to affect a whole country. Where do we draw the line? Yes, this nation was founded on Christianity. But there are so many other religions in the country. It's not fair for me to impose my Christian beliefs on someone who doesn't believe in them. I wouldn't want someone forcing me to wear a head scarf just because their Bible tells them women should cover their faces in the presence of men. Same goes for homosexual couples. FWIW, on the issue, I'm going to have to say undecided. Just because for the past 22 years I have been taught that homosexuality is a sin, and it's hard to get that out of my head. In the same vein as before, I wouldn't want someone else's religious views pushed on me.

mocha beans

Vogt, I get you.  People should be free to follow whatever they want.It gets hairy when people want to use any religious law to govern the behavior of people who believe in a variety of religions.Since religions are all different, but we all have to follow the same human government laws, the government should be basing it's laws on human rights, equality and all that.KA, since you believe marriage is a religious institution, will you be getting a legal marriage also?

Leah&Christian09

Can't everyone have their own beliefs without others attacking them, as long as they just try to apply them to their own lives and not others? I'm assuming KA doesn't take active steps to stop gay rights.Voting against gay marriage or for one of those state amendments is affirmatively taking a step to stop gay rights. 

Soon-to-be Mrs. Vogt

Ricks - the problem is that some people take the Bible literally, but I can't see that this is how it was intended. If God intended for it to be literal, I don't believe it would be so vague and I don't believe that He would have left it to the hands of man to write. I think He would have delivered it personally...and at that point, I'd have a lot easier of a time actually following it to the letter.I think part of the reason it is so vague is so that it could stand the test of time. Life is full of changes and inconsistencies...it really makes sense that the Bible, which serves to guide us in life, would be laid out in the same way (not to mention that it was written by multiple people over a period of time...of course it's going to be inconsistent.)But, the Bible was written by man, who is imperfect in design...of course the writings of man are not perfect.

KA2

@ noelle,Marriage like I said, what instituted by God and He calls the shots on what a marriage is and isn't. The Bible is clearly against gay marriage. My belief for me is beyond going to Church on Sunday but an entire way of life and I have the right to choose to live in a society that does not condone gay marriage or this business about sexuality being a choice.Yes it's harsh but this is not the way God intended for things to be. I will continue to vote against it being a part of society because even the Bible states that we should follow the law of the land unless it is against what the Bible says and this is clearly against what the Bible says.

AmoroAgain

Guys, I get you wanting to argue it, but, she's not going to change her mind for the sake of argument.  Faith for the sake of faith is stronger than any logical argument you could ever make.I do, however, thank KA for sharing her views with us.  (I agree with Vogt.  It's wrong to try and pound your views into KA the same as she is trying to enforce her views on politics)

sucrets4

To me, that sounds like puking makes you dirty.  I think that's a very broad interpretation to say that it reverses what was previously said.What about shaving?  And synthetic fibers?

KA2

@ mocha - I'm not going to get into a technical argument with you  - yes Jesus did away with the law of unclean and clean animals but not every law that was mentioned in Leviticus. See 1 Cor 6:9-10. Men with men and women with women was and is NOT part of God's plan.

Soon-to-be Mrs. Vogt

Voting is supposed to be an individual expression of your opinions and values. If I didn't believe that gays deserved rights, then it would be my responsibility to vote in such a way that they didn't get them.I'm not saying that's right, of course. But I believe there's a difference between say picketing or protesting or condeming people who believe in gay rights and casting an individual vote on an issue.

yuodelj

This has been fun....Maybe I should do work now....

ricksang

Okay who broke the thread? lolVogt, I get what you are saying but like Mocha said, it gets sticky.

ricksang

Voting against gay marriage or for one of those state amendments is affirmatively taking a step to stop gay rights. This!

KA2

yes I will get the legal document because the Bible says I should observe the laws of the land. But that is not what makes me married - my vows that I will say before God, with the Pastor and before the Church is what constitutes my marriage.

ricksang

Meh, I know I won't change her mind. I am bored and we have not had a debate like this in awhile.

Soon-to-be Mrs. Vogt

And on the issue of voting...can there every truly be a separation of church and state if we allow individuals (who are influenced by their personal religions) to vote?For example, I don't believe in the death penalty. I don't believe in it because I don't feel that I'm in the position to judge and punish any other human in that way. This is primarily a religious teaching in my life. Because of that, I would vote to end the death penalty in my state any time I got the chance. When I vote, I don't consider what is best for the state...I consider what makes sense for me and my values. And like it or not, peoples' values are based on religion, which means our laws will continue to be influenced by religion.

ggmae

Vogt/Amoro - I don't think we are so much imposing our views on KA, but are genuinely interested in what she has to say and her reasoning behind her views. At least, I know I am. By expressing your views to someone, you tend to draw out their views as well and it's an overall educational experience. I already thanked her for sharing her views because she is clearly outnumbered and that took a lot of balls.

KA2

@ sucrets - you can read the whole chapter or the entire new testament for further information if you so desire. The Bible in that passage says that it is what a man says that defiles him, not what he eats - it goes further to say that after all what a man eats, is passed out in poop anyway.

jilybeans4

KA - I think your arguements are well supported. I disagree with them, but it at least appears you have done research on this topic and know why you believe what you believe. I think that is respectable. With that said, I think it is interesting that you said you have gay friends and that they know you are against their lifestyle choices. If I had friend who believe that I would choose to make my life more difficult and didn't support something about me that was so integral to who I am...they wouldn't be my friend anymore. My friends accept and support me for who I am. Your friends are bigger people than I would be.

noelle24

marriage like I said, what instituted by God and He calls the shots on what a marriage is and isn't. but that's not what I believe.  So why should your beliefs have more weight in our governments laws than mine?How would you feel if you were living in a country where you were forced to wear a head scarf or a burka just because you were a woman? I bet you'd be indignant too.  And yes, I also think a vote against gay rights is an active step to stop the procurement of equality.

Soon-to-be Mrs. Vogt

Oh, believe me, I know Ricks. I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate. I think there's so much finger pointing that goes on in this country...this doesn't happen because one group has an influence, or that did happen because one group wants it to be.If we, as a country, basically allowed people their individual beliefs, as long as they didn't hurt others...we'd be much better off as a whole.

mocha beans

Agreed GG.  I know I am clearly not going to change anyone's mind, one way or the other.  But part of making informed decisions is listening to the debates, to talk to people who have opposing viewpoints, to discuss things logically.This has been a very good discussion.  No one has called anyone stupid, or dumb, or anything like that.  There's been no viscious attacking that I know of.  This is how debates on this are supposed to happen.

ggmae

Vogt/Amoro - Ah, I sounded like a meanie there. I meant that I too have thanked her for sharing her views etc etc.

KA2

@ noelle, I would wear the headscarf to respect the law of the land since it doesn't conflict with my religious beliefs - The Bible says as Christians we should respect the law of the land unless it is in direct contradiction with the Bible.