Controversy Over Date Rape at AU

ExpatPumpkin

A columist for American University's newpaper wrote the following:

"Let's get this straight: any woman who heads to an EI [fraternity] party as an anonymous onlooker, drinks five cups of the jungle juice, and walks back to a boy's room with him is indicating that she wants sex, OK?...

To cry 'date rape' after you sober up the next morning and regret the incident is the equivalent of pulling a gun to someone's head and then later claiming that you didn't ever actually intend to pull the trigger."

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/date-rape-firestorm-erupts-american-university-student-newspaper/story?id=10254150&page=1

btrflykate1230

Absolutely NOT. A woman has the right to change her mind at ANY point in time. If she says no, even if she's been making out with him throughout the whole party, then no means no.

angel2210

No. You ALWAYS have the option to say no and whether you sent the GO signal or not, the other person has to respect that or be called a  rapist. And if the argument is that she acted like she wanted it.. she was drunk.  Chances are she wouldn't be acting that way if she were altogether in her head. Use your brain, not your penis.

shellydiane820

I get what he's putting out there.

I do think that some girls need to get a clue. They metioned in the article the frat house that was notorious for drugging girls and getting them really drunk.  Why would you go to a party like that?

I have a girlfriend, who I love dearly, but she is really good at getting herself in these situations.  I do believe she was raped, (in fact I had to take her to a clinic after that...which is a whole different story/topic)  Yet she kept putting herself in these situations, going to parties, getting too drunk to function.

In conversation, she will say she's been raped more than once, but really I think that she puts herself in the situation.  I feel bad for her, I do and I think the guys that took advantage of her are scum, but what I don't get is, if its happened once, why would you keep going back to said place and getting trashed.

It just boggles my mind.

/rant

ExpatPumpkin

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:7a5adc79-7e53-4920-8955-637c8a02f58b">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]No. You ALWAYS have the option to say no and whether you sent the GO signal or not, the other person has to respect that or be called a  rapist.<strong> And if the argument is that she acted like she wanted it.. she was drunk.</strong>  Chances are she wouldn't be acting that way if she were altogether in her head. Use your brain, not your penis.
Posted by angel2210[/QUOTE]

But what if he's drunk too?  Should she be able to call it date rape the next morning? 

It doesn't seem fair to make it the guy's responsibility only to make sure she's sober enough to say yes.

MyNameIsNot

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:1cbcc534-02cd-4a0e-8151-d14a280bfff2">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]Absolutely NOT. A woman has the right to change her mind at ANY point in time. If she says no, even if she's been making out with him throughout the whole party, then no means no.
Posted by btrflykate1230[/QUOTE]

<div>This.  </div><div>
</div><div>Granted, I didn't read the article, but no.  That's the same as "well, she dressed like a slut, so she wanted to get raped."  </div><div>
</div><div>No means no, if you're drunk, hi, stupid, slutty, or what.</div>

polichik

I'm so angry, I'm actually tearing up right now. I want to punch something.

I was sexually assaulted my freshman year after a fraternity party. Alcohol is a date rape drug. It lowers inhibitions, it's legal, it's ubiquitous at most college parties, and when consumed in extreme quantities, negates a person's ability to consent.

ETA: I do think that the same thing applies to guys. Anyone who's too intoxicated to function is too intoxicated to consent.

RachNRich

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:efec26ab-541c-49cf-b034-6952a7c64ccc">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU : But what if he's drunk too?  Should she be able to call it date rape the next morning? <strong> It doesn't seem fair to make it the guy's responsibility only to make sure she's sober enough to say yes.</strong>
Posted by ExpatPumpkin[/QUOTE]

<div>He, too, should be able to claim rape then. </div>

btrflykate1230

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:efec26ab-541c-49cf-b034-6952a7c64ccc">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU : But what if he's drunk too?  Should she be able to call it date rape the next morning?  <strong>It doesn't seem fair to make it the guy's responsibility only to make sure she's sober enough to say yes.
</strong>Posted by ExpatPumpkin[/QUOTE]

Oh yes it does. If he doesn't want to be called a rapist, he better not get drunk and try to have sex with someone who doesn't want it. That's BS.

[Deleted User]

i think he has a point - somewhat. yes, a woman always has the option to change her mind, or should, anyway. a man forcing himself on a woman is never ok, no matter the circumstances. but the instance where a woman willingly put herself in a situation, regretted it in the morning, and cried rape is equally despicable.

MyNameIsNot

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:efec26ab-541c-49cf-b034-6952a7c64ccc">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU : But what if he's drunk too?  Should she be able to call it date rape the next morning?  It doesn't seem fair to make it the guy's responsibility only to make sure she's sober enough to say yes.
Posted by ExpatPumpkin[/QUOTE]

<div>But his being drunk is not an excuse for his behavior.  If she says no, and he takes advantage, it's his bad.</div><div>
</div><div>It would be the same if he said no and she took advantage.  She'd be raping him.  (Although there are physical challenges here.)</div>

shellydiane820

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:e6f246d4-32c2-4c84-907b-ba8b1ffa936c">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm so angry, I'm actually tearing up right now. I want to punch something. I was sexually assaulted my freshman year after a fraternity party. <strong>Alcohol is a date rape drug</strong>. It lowers inhibitions, it's legal, it's ubiquitous at most college parties, and when consumed in extreme quantities, negates a person's ability to consent.
Posted by polichik[/QUOTE]

If you abuse the alcohol.  You should be responsible enough to know when to stop drinking.

I do think its a different story if something is put in your drink.

polichik

I do agree that regrettable sex isn't the same thing as rape. Every woman who willingly and consciously has sex, regrets it, and calls it rape makes it all the harder for actual rape/assault victims to get help and credibility.

polichik

Shelly, ideally a person should know when to stop drinking. But being drunk is no excuse for rape. It's similar to the "she was asking for it because she was wearing a miniskirt" argument. No behavior, no matter how risky, is ever asking for rape.

nhelene

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:456986f6-5dce-4dda-bdf1-624c6dac4ec0">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU : He, too, should be able to claim rape then. 
Posted by RachNRich[/QUOTE]

He should.  But the truth is if two consenting adults both get too drunk and stupid to make a good decision,and are unhappy about it the next morning, the man is going to get the blame.

ExpatPumpkin

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:456986f6-5dce-4dda-bdf1-624c6dac4ec0">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU : He, too, should be able to claim rape then. 
Posted by RachNRich[/QUOTE]

I get what you're saying, but how likely is that to happen?  In the end, who's more likely to actually regret the events of the night before?  And what jury will convict a female date rapist? 

If two extremely wasted people go and have sex, it doesn't seem fair that the guy could face jail time just because he's a guy.

ALSO:  I do NOT think that date rape never happens.  I truly hope that no one gets that impression. 

shellydiane820

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:e927918f-534e-4c78-befe-d580fc3a05fa">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU : But his being drunk is not an excuse for his behavior.  If she says no, and he takes advantage, it's his bad. It would be the same if he said no and she took advantage.  She'd be raping him.  (Although there are physical challenges here.)
Posted by MyNameIsNot[/QUOTE]


I think what expat is saying is if she's not saying no or insinuating she doesn't want to do it, how is he supposed to know?  If she's laying there kissing, touching, whatever, and never says no or pushes him away, how is he supposed to know he needs to stop?

[Deleted User]

yeah - my answer totally changes depending on whether the woman said no/the man used force. the op wasn't specific on that point. although i didn't read the article cause i'm tired.

Marina007

I have a possibly unpopular opinion on this: yes and no.

I agree that one can say no at any point and that it is your right (100%) to stop, regardless of what signals have been sent. At no point does one have to sleep with someone, and a man should always respect that (I know, some don't).  

And I don't mean to invalidate the many tragic date rapes that do occur.

However.

I do think that some women have abused the word, and called things date rape, when it wasn't, in an attempt to clear their conscience for having had casual sex. 

Case in point:

t I had a housemate at university who did something similar. She had a boyfriend, and at a party got too drunk, and slept with (an equally drunk guy - I know him well, and at no point would I see him as someone who would take advantage of someone).  They were making out in the kitchen all night, and left hand in hand to her room.  Of course, I can't know EVERYTHING as I was not in the room when they slept together(duh), but the next morning she insisted to everyone that he had raped her. Despite later that night rejoining the party while holding hands with the guy eating pancakes, but later stressing and saying "what have I done?"
I'm pretty sure that it was so her boyfriend wouldn't break up with her for cheating on him...

I'm not saying that's the case for any girl who goes to a frat party and goes to a guy's room. BUT, I do think that some women claim date rape who actually did have sex that was consentual at the time.

shellydiane820

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:53fd4ec5-f1ae-468f-abe8-e03e165fbb38">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]Shelly, ideally a person should know when to stop drinking. But being drunk is no excuse for rape. It's similar to the "she was asking for it because she was wearing a miniskirt" argument. No behavior, no matter how risky, is ever asking for rape.
Posted by polichik[/QUOTE]

 I agree, that just because you dress a certain way/act a certain way, doesn't give someone the right to take advantage of you.  What I'm saying is watch how much you drink.  Don't give someone the chance to take advantage.

polichik

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:07265fab-4c81-4a1e-94b4-4fd1ce4b1d56">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU : I get what you're saying, but how likely is that to happen? <strong> In the end, who's more likely to actually regret the events of the night before?</strong>  And what jury will convict a female date rapist?  If two extremely wasted people go and have sex, it doesn't seem fair that the guy could face jail time just because he's a guy. ALSO:  I do NOT think that date rape never happens.  I truly hope that no one gets that impression. 
Posted by ExpatPumpkin[/QUOTE]

I'd actually disagree with this. Although men in American culture are encouraged to be more promiscuous than women, plenty of men regret one-night stands. They just usually aren't as vocal about it as women.

And juries have convincted female sex offenders before. Many female survivors of rape are sexually aroused during the attack, and some even climax. A man can have an unwilling erection, and he can be taken advantage of. A person's body responds to physical stimulation even if the brain is crying out against it.

MyNameIsNot

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:1e2c62be-9e24-471e-a923-4c985c9a4f8a">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]i think he has a point - somewhat. yes, a woman always has the option to change her mind, or should, anyway. a man forcing himself on a woman is never ok, no matter the circumstances. but the instance <strong>where a woman willingly put herself in a situation, regretted it in the morning, and cried rape</strong> is equally despicable.
Posted by daffodil_jill[/QUOTE]

<div>I think we're confusing this case with actual date rape.  This is a false allegation and is a whole other topic.</div>

Marina007

"If two extremely wasted people go and have sex, it doesn't seem fair that the guy could face jail time just because he's a guy."

THIS

polichik

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:3d344a81-3248-4bc8-b42d-d40c3be0bb1d">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU :  I agree, that just because you dress a certain way/act a certain way, doesn't give someone the right to take advantage of you.  What I'm saying is watch how much you drink.  Don't give someone the chance to take advantage.
Posted by shellydiane820[/QUOTE]

I agree. I do think that many college freshman don't know how to drink responsibly, and at least at my college, the culture erred on the side of serious problem drinking. I'm still not saying it isn't a person's responsibilty to learn to drink responsibly, but in my mind, expected consequences from binge drinking = hangover, vomiting, slurred speech, stumbling, and possibly a hospital visit. Expected consequences shouldn't be rape.

I know that's not what you're saying, but it really frustrates me when people imply that a person (man or woman) who gets too drunk is asking for it or can't be raped, which I've heard before.

MyNameIsNot

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:8ccdf3ac-be96-4310-af69-0c927cedf548">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU : I think what expat is saying is if she's not saying no or insinuating she doesn't want to do it, how is he supposed to know?  If she's laying there kissing, touching, whatever, and never says no or pushes him away, how is he supposed to know he needs to stop?
Posted by shellydiane820[/QUOTE]

<div>If she never says no, or makes it clear that she's too drunk to consent, he can't be convicted of rape.  At least not in my state.</div>

RachNRich

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:07265fab-4c81-4a1e-94b4-4fd1ce4b1d56">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU : <strong>I get what you're saying, but how likely is that to happen?  In the end, who's more likely to actually regret the events of the night before?  And what jury will convict a female date rapist? </strong> If two extremely wasted people go and have sex, it doesn't seem fair that the guy could face jail time just because he's a guy. ALSO:  I do NOT think that date rape never happens.  I truly hope that no one gets that impression. 
Posted by ExpatPumpkin[/QUOTE]

<div>How likely? Not as likely as it is for a woman to get raped, but that does not mean it doesn't happen.</div><div>
</div><div>I think guys often regret their hook-ups, especially the next morning. Would they ever admit it? Or admit it as freely as a woman would? Doubtful. </div><div>
</div><div>As for the Jury piece of this, well--I've got no answer for it. But, men can be raped to. Last time I checked, an erection isn't something they can easily control. </div>

shellydiane820

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:27db5fbf-0f80-4409-8795-60108b2e4f6a">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU : I agree. I do think that many college freshman don't know how to drink responsibly, and at least at my college, the culture erred on the side of serious problem drinking. I'm still not saying it isn't a person's responsibilty to learn to drink responsibly, but in my mind, expected consequences from binge drinking = hangover, vomiting, slurred speech, stumbling, and possibly a hospital visit. Expected consequences shouldn't be rape. I know that's not what you're saying, but<strong> it really frustrates me when people imply that a person (man or woman) who gets too drunk is asking for it</strong> or can't be raped, which I've heard before.
Posted by polichik[/QUOTE]

Oh I wouldn't say they "asked for it"  but I think it should be thought about as a consequence.  Like you said "if I drink too much, I might throw up, have a hangover...etc. " I think rape should be added to that.  Always expect the unexpected.

ExpatPumpkin

To clarify, what I quoted was a guy's opinion on date rape.  I don't believe he was referring to a single incident, but rather trying to point out that not all accusations of date rape are on the up and up...

Obviously, I believe that forceful rape is rape regardless of whether alcohol is involved.  But if two wasted people have drunk sex at a frat party, it's not fair for the girl to cry date rape the next morning because she now regrets it.

MyNameIsNot

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:3d344a81-3248-4bc8-b42d-d40c3be0bb1d">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU :  I agree, that just because you dress a certain way/act a certain way, doesn't give someone the right to take advantage of you.  What I'm saying is watch how much you drink.  Don't give someone the chance to take advantage.
Posted by shellydiane820[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>So if I got drunk tonight and decided to walk home alone from the bar through a crappy neighborhood, and got mugged, would you say I deserved it or had or that the muggers shouldn't be prosecuted?</div><div>
</div><div>Sure, it's being stupid, but the fact that a person was stupid doesn't negate that a crime was committed.  

</div>

polichik

Although the figure varies, between 4-14% of all reported rapes result in convictions. It's nearly impossible to prove rape in court. An attorney should feel free to correct me, but I believe that it's the most difficult to prove of the majority of crimes. I certainly don't want to undermine the emotional damage that a false accusation can cause to a person, but it's not like it's easy for a woman to cry rape, report it, and have it result in a conviction. Although I'm sure it does happen.

At my college, a person was required to get affirmative verbal consent before having sex. So, if a person is passed out, he or she can't consent, but they certainly aren't able to fight off the perpetrator or say "no." People are often too frightened to say no. Freezing is a common response during trauma, and many people aren't able to vocalize at all.

btrflykate1230

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:80bc26d4-c500-4ae7-a699-c982dbd99c1a">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU : Oh I wouldn't say they "asked for it"  but I think it should be thought about as a consequence.  Like you said "if I drink too much, I might throw up, have a hangover...etc. " I think rape should be added to that.  Always expect the unexpected.
Posted by shellydiane820[/QUOTE]

Are you for real? So if I get drunk, I should EXPECT to get raped? Seriously? Please tell me I'm misunderstanding you.