Controversy Over Date Rape at AU

ExpatPumpkin

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:3dcc9773-9095-457f-b26a-a6f885d17fea">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU : What kind of signals would those be? Like, if she was drunk, got naked, and then said no? Does she deserve it because she got naked?
Posted by btrflykate1230[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.  What you just described would be date rape if she said no...

But what if she got naked and didn't say no?  And then realizes in the morning that she never would have done that were it not for the alcohol.  Is that date rape?  Should he - also drunk - have known that she wasn't really able to give consent?

Shouldn't that be chalked up to poor judgement on both of their parts?

btrflykate1230

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:12c5aeec-a07d-443a-b8e8-a07c3bc3ad9c">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU : I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.  What you just described would be date rape if she said no... But what if she got naked and didn't say no?  And then realizes in the morning that she never would have done that were it not for the alcohol.  Is that date rape?  Should he - also drunk - have known that she wasn't really able to give consent? Shouldn't that be chalked up to poor judgement on both of their parts?
Posted by ExpatPumpkin[/QUOTE]

If she didn't say yes, I would consider it rape. If he wanted to be safe, he should've waited for her to say yes.

ExpatPumpkin

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:f2502c8b-f35b-42c3-8858-92376b47cc12">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU : If she didn't say yes, I would consider it rape. If he wanted to be safe, he should've waited for her to say yes.
Posted by btrflykate1230[/QUOTE]

Again, what if he's wasted too?  He should still know he should wait until she's sober enough to consent?  What about her?  Why should he be held to such a higher level of responsibility? 

I find that really demeaning to women.  To me, it portrays us as helpless, and men as being capable of higher cognitive ability while under the influence of the same drug (alcohol).

RachNRich

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:f2502c8b-f35b-42c3-8858-92376b47cc12">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU : If she didn't say yes, I would consider it rape. If he wanted to be safe, he should've waited for her to say yes.
Posted by btrflykate1230[/QUOTE]

<div>Do you say YES everytime before you have sex? Because, ya know, if you and your FI don't ask each other for permission first---under your logic, you both rape each other each time. </div>

katiewhompus

But what if she did say yes? I know plenty of girls who drunkenly had sex, drunkenly bragged about said sex, then sobered up and wanted to pretend it never existed. I think a lot of the bogus cases are with the female saying yes the entire time then regreting it in the morning.

And yes, I said bogus case, not the real ones.

smokeybailey

If you don't say no AND are conscious then it's not rape.  If you say no or you give signs that you are not willing (like pushing, trying to get away, etc.) or are passed out, it's rape.

My mother taught me that it's my right to say no right up to the point of entry AND if I wanted to stop during, it was my right to say that I didn't want to do this anymore and a man should respect my wishes.

She also advised that it is best to avoid those situations but that my body is my body and I don't have to let anyone "just finish" if I am hurting, scared, whatever.  Too bad that some men don't know how to respect that.

smokeybailey

Saying yes does not constitute rape.  And yes is not always the exact word.  Are you participating?  When he goes to take your pants off did you say don't do that or let me help? 

"please don't" is the same as no in my book.  Or non-participation because I am too drunk to function is also a no in my book.  If you have to undress me, spread my legs, and position me then guess what, a$$hole, that's rape.

goheels05

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:e064568f-c0e9-4f9a-867d-a24808197293">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]I should feel safe anywhere.  If I pass out drunk at a bar, on the street, at a frat house, and someone rapes me, THAT IS A CRIME.  Blame me all you want but RAPING ME IS A CRIME.  Maybe instead of saying that I shouldn't go over to a friend's frat house because there have been instances of drugging, someone should say DRUGGING WOMEN IS A CRIME.
Posted by smokeybailey[/QUOTE]

This.

Also?  This thread disgusts me. 

Poli, if you're still around, hugs, and YGPM. 

nd76

Well, I don't know all the facts of either case, but it sounds kind of like the Ben Rothlisberger thing that's going on.  My opinion is that if the girl (or guy for that matter) can't say no, then that is not the same thing as that person saying yes, even though that seems to be an argument a lot of people use when caught up in a situation like this.  "Well, she didn't say no."  Seriously?  How can that argument seem valid?  I think once people pass a certain point of intoxication, others should consider them past the point of consenting. 

btrflykate1230

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:3afe0ede-56aa-452e-abda-3e20a3d077b8">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU : Do you say YES everytime before you have sex? Because, ya know, if you and your FI don't ask each other for permission first---under your logic<strong>, you both rape each other each time. </strong>
Posted by RachNRich[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>Not necessarily. In the case of women who go to men's rooms when they're drunk, the men don't know the women very well, or at all, even. FI and I have built a relationship of love and trust. Two drunken college kids don't have that kind of repertoire built up and they should err on the side of caution. It's the same reason you should wear a condom when having sex with someone on the third/fifth/whatever # date.  

<div>[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU : Again, what if he's wasted too?  He should still know he should wait until she's sober enough to consent?  What about her?  Why should he be held to such a higher level of responsibility?  I find that really demeaning to women.  To me, it portrays us as helpless, and men as being capable of higher cognitive ability while under the influence of the same drug (alcohol).
Posted by ExpatPumpkin[/QUOTE]
</div><div>
</div><div>It's not the same. Rape, by definition, is forceful. Are you saying that because she is too drunk to say no, she should be raped because he's too drunk to know that she didn't say no? That's despicable. </div></div>

btrflykate1230

And FYI, some women don't have it in them to stand up for themselves as they are being raped. They find it easier to lay there and take it than to stand up for themselves because they're too afraid of the consequences. Some women aren't as strong and vocal as some of us on this board and just because some of you would have the courage to stand up for yourself during the act, doesn't mean everyone does.

ExpatPumpkin

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:a7c136e0-336f-411a-9479-873852e9a3c7">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]Rape, by definition, is forceful. Are you saying that because she is too drunk to say no, she should be raped because he's too drunk to know that she didn't say no? That's despicable. 
Posted by btrflykate1230[/QUOTE]

No, I am talking about is situations in which BOTH are too drunk to know better.  If she wakes up and regrets having had sex, is it fair for her to accuse him of date rape?

My point is not that date rape doesn't exist.  It most certainly does.  My point is that regret for having drunk sex does not equal date rape, and men and women should be held to the same level of responsibility for their actions.

shellydiane820

I'm beginning to think this debate will never end.

ExpatPumpkin

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:870e3dac-4122-4433-be43-aeb9ba7f0fa5">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm beginning to think this debate will never end.
Posted by shellydiane820[/QUOTE]

Me too.  I feel like we're talking about two different things.

btrflykate1230

I'm dropping it. It's a really touchy, personal, and emotionally charged topic for me, so I'm just dropping it.

ExpatPumpkin

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:f6130877-1f92-4fbc-8400-c51552548fe8">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm dropping it. It's a really touchy, personal, and emotionally charged topic for me, so I'm just dropping it.
Posted by btrflykate1230[/QUOTE]

I just hope you didn't get the impression from me that I don't believe this is a serious issue and that date rape doesn't happen.  Sorry to hear that you've had personal experience with this :(

LauraT25

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:882e3f68-cc13-4255-a283-64f64726c84a">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]And FYI, some women don't have it in them to stand up for themselves as they are being raped. They find it easier to lay there and take it than to stand up for themselves because they're too afraid of the consequences. Some women aren't as strong and vocal as some of us on this board and just because some of you would have the courage to stand up for yourself during the act, doesn't mean everyone does.
Posted by btrflykate1230[/QUOTE]

I just caught up on all this, but I want to say that Kate is dead-on here.  I was date raped in college, and while I wasn't going along willingly, I just laid there terrified.  It's sort of a different case for me since I was just frozen, recalling a previous trauma, and if it weren't for that I probably would have at least been able to say no.

He had been drinking and I think maybe he was a little too drunk to notice, and maybe he was rougher than he would have been sober, but I still don't consider it an excuse.  The next day he called me and tried to apologize, saying something like, "I was a little wasted, but I seem to remember you weren't really into it."  I don't think that excuses him.

This is probably the most upsetting thread I've ever seen on this board.

btrflykate1230

Laura, YGPM.

And Expat, I know what you mean, but we'll have to agree to disagree.

mandysmear

I wish I could figure out why expat always posts crap like this.  I really wish I could get in her brain for a minute or two.

ExpatPumpkin

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:6b54e0d7-88e3-4825-8f39-7464996236a0">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]I wish I could figure out why expat always posts crap like this.  I really wish I could get in her brain for a minute or two.
Posted by mandysmear[/QUOTE]

Because I find it interesting to explore differing opinions on controversial subjects. 

mandysmear

you don't say.  i didn't pick up on that.

smokeybailey

I am sad that date rape is controversial.  I can't wait until the day comes when rape is rape.

ExpatPumpkin

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:c18cad24-21b9-4be6-b3ee-ecb0c50e77f6">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]you don't say.  i didn't pick up on that.
Posted by mandysmear[/QUOTE]

Well then why ask?  You obviously don't like me or my posts, so why read them?

ExpatPumpkin

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:6799f211-8823-4ace-92cd-8488f65329ad">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]I am sad that date rape is controversial .  I can't wait until the day comes when rape is rape.
Posted by smokeybailey[/QUOTE]

Date rape isn't the controversy.  It's the guy's statements that are controversial.

mandysmear

i didn't say i didn't like you.

i hate poli's threads.  some of whitson's, most of rach's.  never said i didn't like anyone.

i was just stating... it's like you try to stir the pot.  that's all.

shellydiane820

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:ca86c64f-2125-42b0-b3ae-814d04def6c8">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU : Date rape isn't the controversy.  It's the guy's statements that are controversial.
Posted by ExpatPumpkin[/QUOTE]


It does make me curious, how many people read the article.  I'm not sure everyone did, and I think that's what made it so heated.

Not the fact that rape is controversial, but what he said.  I think if you didn't read the article, the point of this post was missed.

LauraT25

Expat - I actually don't mind that you posted the link.  Even though I found the article distasteful, I'm not sorry I saw it.

Kate - YGPM back.

ExpatPumpkin

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:7d83b0dd-8b80-4f6f-a15b-74d5b0abab9a">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]i didn't say i didn't like you. i hate poli's threads.  some of whitson's, most of rach's.  never said i didn't like anyone. i was just stating... <strong>it's like you try to stir the pot.  that's all.
</strong>Posted by mandysmear[/QUOTE]

Yes, I do.  All of the "how do I not invite kids" and "if I sent an STD do I have to send an invite" and "OMG OMG OMG if I don't list my registry on my invite how will they knoooooow" threads get boring after awhile ;)

Marina007

I'm finding this thread quite frustrating, because I feel like people are talking past each other.

Obviously all forms of rape are despicable.

Falsely claiming date rape (or other forms of rape is) is awful, and I think it's very interesting to read the different opinions regarding a man's vs a woman's responsibility.

Every woman (and man) has a right to at any point not have sex. But that same man (and woman) also should have the right to not be condemned if the sexual contact that occurred was consentual.

ExpatPumpkin

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversy-over-date-rape-au?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:a29dea24-6d71-49be-8ae2-6870a82edc9dPost:5aa77fef-35fe-41d6-89a5-dd33f073ae43">Re: Controversy Over Date Rape at AU</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm finding this thread quite frustrating, because I feel like people are talking past each other. Obviously all forms of rape are despicable. Falsely claiming date rape (or other forms of rape is) is awful, and I think it's very interesting to read the different opinions regarding a man's vs a woman's responsibility.<strong> Every woman (and man) has a right to at any point not have sex. But that same man (and woman) also should have the right to not be condemned if the sexual contact that occurred was consentual.
</strong>Posted by Marina007[/QUOTE]

Marina - Thank you!  This is all I've been trying so unsucessfully to say - not that date rape is the woman's fault.

ShellyDiane - Yes, reading the article definitely helps bring the thread into perspective.

Laura - I'm so glad that you weren't offended.  I certainly did not want to hurt anyone's feelings by posting this.