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Wedding Etiquette Forum

Destination Wedding Gift Registry

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Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry

  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_destination-wedding-gift-registry?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:ba428a69-d080-43fe-9260-5f8cd8230597Post:6def8901-01dc-4355-a6b4-31fecdd0a01f">Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry</a>:
    [QUOTE]The OP reacted calmly and sanely to our advice.  I'm not sure why you're still harping on this. 
    Posted by adamar15[/QUOTE]

    Because we all know what happens if we dare to call you out.... lol
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_destination-wedding-gift-registry?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:ba428a69-d080-43fe-9260-5f8cd8230597Post:52d82119-6bd3-4990-ae4b-ce2a12425c6a">Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry : Because we all know what happens if we dare to call you out.... lol
    Posted by sharp0099[/QUOTE]

    I'm not really sure what you mean by this.  Are we supposed to hunt you down and make a skin suit out of you now?
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_destination-wedding-gift-registry?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:ba428a69-d080-43fe-9260-5f8cd8230597Post:78fc123e-44cc-4b2b-a120-b6c227ac27dd">Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry : But we DO have helpful things to say... telling someone to read the 75 million other posts on this topic is helpful.  Telling someone that what they want to do is rude and they shouldn't do it is helpful.  I guess that doesn't meet your definition of "nice" though, huh?
    Posted by StephBeanWed61502[/QUOTE]

    I agree, there are a lot of helpful things posted.  Telling someone that what they want to do will be rude to their guests is fine.  And telling someone that someone already asked that question recently to look it up or direct them to it is fine too.  However, it's how it is communicated, SCREAMING is rude, insults are rude, belittling is rude, etc..
  • So Sharp isn't a pearl-clutcher with a stick up her butt, she's a daring crusader against the rudeness of the evil, evil E regs.  I get it now.
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_destination-wedding-gift-registry?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:ba428a69-d080-43fe-9260-5f8cd8230597Post:d3ca2b21-e1f2-4770-a2f6-d6ce35a64cf9">Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry : I'm not really sure what you mean by this.  Are we supposed to hunt you down and make a skin suit out of you now?
    Posted by adamar15[/QUOTE]

    I'm pretty sure you know what I mean, but okay.... I mean, that if she said someone was rude, there would be flat out denial to the rude comments, etc., and then many people jumping on her back....  I've seen it on this board before.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_destination-wedding-gift-registry?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:ba428a69-d080-43fe-9260-5f8cd8230597Post:67154de6-ea85-48fb-9a10-cf4f6974a8d4">Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry : I'm pretty sure you know what I mean, but okay.... I mean, that if she said someone was rude, there would be flat out denial to the rude comments, etc., and then many people jumping on her back....  I've seen it on this board before.
    Posted by sharp0099[/QUOTE]

    Because I think most people here genuinely don't think they're being rude -- because they're not. there sis so much incredible rudeness out there in the world and this forum ain't even a blip on the radar.
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_destination-wedding-gift-registry?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:ba428a69-d080-43fe-9260-5f8cd8230597Post:df6c58a3-d043-411b-a572-15618af3c652">Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry</a>:
    [QUOTE]So Sharp isn't <strong>a pearl-clutcher with a stick up her butt</strong>, she's a daring crusader against the rudeness of the evil, evil E regs.  I get it now.
    Posted by StephBeanWed61502[/QUOTE]

    "a pearl-clutcher with a stick up her butt", classy.... Yes, mock me because I don't believe anyone deserves to be responded to with rudeness, insults, etc. Boy am I horrible or what?
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_destination-wedding-gift-registry?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:ba428a69-d080-43fe-9260-5f8cd8230597Post:7b1ff0d1-f4fb-4911-90d3-aff29d6141ea">Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry : Because I think most people here genuinely don't think they're being rude -- because they're not. there sis so much incredible rudeness out there in the world and this forum ain't even a blip on the radar.
    Posted by aragx6[/QUOTE]

    As an example, this "is" rude:
    <strong>"Seriously?  OP READ BEFORE POSTING.</strong><div><strong>
    </strong></div><div><strong>This topic is CURRENTLY being covered.  TODAY.  Right this moment.  In another thread."
    </strong>
    SCREAMING is rude; the tone is rude....
    </div>
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_destination-wedding-gift-registry?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:ba428a69-d080-43fe-9260-5f8cd8230597Post:5b652417-a243-440f-8770-64dc0c28cc2f">Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry : "a pearl-clutcher with a stick up her butt", classy.... Yes, mock me because I don't believe anyone deserves to be responded to with rudeness, insults, etc. Boy am I horrible or what?
    Posted by sharp0099[/QUOTE]

    What?  I said you <em>weren't</em> that.  Reading comprehension is your friend.
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_destination-wedding-gift-registry?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:ba428a69-d080-43fe-9260-5f8cd8230597Post:a909d4c3-8cba-4d25-b517-e67deba581e9">Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry : What?  I said you weren't that.  Reading comprehension is your friend.
    Posted by StephBeanWed61502[/QUOTE]

    Yes, I know you what you said. "<strong>So Sharp isn't a pearl-clutcher with a stick up her butt, she's a <em>daring crusader </em>against the rudeness of the evil, evil E regs.  I get it now</strong>."

    But did not see the point of even using the not so nice term "pearl-clutcher with a stick up her butt<strong>".... </strong>You were obviously mocking me, which really doen't hurt my feelings, when you said <strong>"she's a <em>daring crusader </em>against the rudeness of the evil, evil E regs."
    </strong>
  • Sharp... why do you care how people communicate with one another on this or any other message board?  That's the issue for me.  I don't see what difference it makes.  You may find it rude and classless when E regs (or whoever) responds to OPs in a snippy tone, but I don't understand why it matters so much to you? 
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_destination-wedding-gift-registry?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:ba428a69-d080-43fe-9260-5f8cd8230597Post:2d79eb0b-f2c5-4d89-9b98-40360a1ba8a1">Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry</a>:
    [QUOTE]Sharp... why do you care how people communicate with one another on this or any other message board?  That's the issue for me.  I don't see what difference it makes.  <strong>You may find it rude and classless when E regs (or whoever) responds to OPs in a snippy tone, but I don't understand why it matters so much to you? </strong>
    Posted by daveANDkristen[/QUOTE]
    <p class="MsoNormal">Because no one deserves to be responded to in a rude or snippy tone for simply asking a question or disagreeing with someone…<span>  </span>There’s <span> </span>too much of that type of behavior that's tolerated and encouraged on this board, which tarnishes the knot's reputation and is turning it into a clicky hang out instead of what it was meant for.... </p>
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_destination-wedding-gift-registry?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:ba428a69-d080-43fe-9260-5f8cd8230597Post:a909d4c3-8cba-4d25-b517-e67deba581e9">Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry : What?  I said you weren't that.  Reading comprehension is your friend.
    Posted by StephBeanWed61502[/QUOTE]

    <p class="MsoNormal">Yes, I know what you wrote "So Sharp isn't a pearl-clutcher with a stick up her butt, she's a <em><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';">daring crusader </span></em>against the rudeness of the evil, evil E regs.  I get it now. "

    I just don't see the point of even mentioning "a pearl-clutcher with a stick up her butt"...<span>  </span>And one would assume you were mocking me with your comment about “she's a <em><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';">daring crusader </span></em>against the rudeness of the evil, evil E regs.”. <span> </span>Whatever….</p> <p class="MsoNormal">“Reading comprehension is your friend.” <span> </span>Sure… <span> </span>but you just misunderstood me too. lol</p>
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_destination-wedding-gift-registry?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:ba428a69-d080-43fe-9260-5f8cd8230597Post:2d79eb0b-f2c5-4d89-9b98-40360a1ba8a1">Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry</a>:
    [QUOTE]Sharp... why do you care how people communicate with one another on this or any other message board?  That's the issue for me.  I don't see what difference it makes.  <strong>You may find it rude and classless when E regs (or whoever) responds to OPs in a snippy tone, but I don't understand why it matters so much to you? </strong>
    Posted by daveANDkristen[/QUOTE]

    <p class="MsoNormal">Because no one deserves to be responded to in a rude or snippy tone for simply asking a question or disagreeing with your advice…<span>  </span>There’s<span> </span>a click which tolerates and encourages this type of behavior, which<span> </span>isn’t the purpose of the board and it tarnishes the knot's reputation….</p>
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_destination-wedding-gift-registry?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:ba428a69-d080-43fe-9260-5f8cd8230597Post:5eea1126-27fb-48ca-b820-3b2a253e7de5">Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry : Because no one deserves to be responded to in a rude or snippy tone for simply asking a question or disagreeing with your advice…   There’s a click which tolerates and encourages this type of behavior, which isn’t the purpose of the board and <strong>it tarnishes the knot's reputation</strong>….
    Posted by sharp0099[/QUOTE]

    I had to laugh at that.  I didn't know TK had a reputation (good or bad). 

    And I think the problem lies in your definition of the "purpose of the board".  People (regs and not-so-regs like myself) get to know each other and converse about topics not E related.  It is also a resource for people with E questions to get those questions answered.  I think people who frequent the board find it frustrating when there are several OPs about the same topic, because it would require little to no effort on the part of the OP to at least look at page one and the FAQ sticky. 
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  • Clique not click chica.

    TK already has a reputation, but I hear Weddingbee is always looking for those who love to shoot rainbows up eachother's ass.
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_destination-wedding-gift-registry?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:ba428a69-d080-43fe-9260-5f8cd8230597Post:bffbfa58-cd0d-4dec-8dc5-bdc35e3a351d">Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry</a>:
    [QUOTE]Clique not click chica. TK already has a reputation, but I hear Weddingbee is always looking for those who love to shoot rainbows up eachother's ass.
    Posted by sparent2010[/QUOTE]

    Sparent, I suggested that two pages ago, but Sharp would rather stay here and valiantly defend The Knot's reputation.
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_destination-wedding-gift-registry?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:ba428a69-d080-43fe-9260-5f8cd8230597Post:80dd8ce5-1887-4a04-ad71-78e8e8c15329">Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry : I had to laugh at that.  I didn't know TK had a reputation (good or bad).  And I think the problem lies in your definition of the "purpose of the board".  People (regs and not-so-regs like myself) get to know each other and converse about topics not E related.  It is also a resource for people with E questions to get those questions answered.  I think people who frequent the board find it frustrating when there are several OPs about the same topic, because it would require little to no effort on the part of the OP to at least look at page one and the FAQ sticky. 
    Posted by daveANDkristen[/QUOTE]

    <p class="MsoNormal">I'm so happy to have made you laugh. lol  The knot is a business, all businesses have reputations to maintain.  My point is boards like this were created to help brides, so if brides come to the board for advice and are insulted, chastised, etc. the word gets around. 

    I've no problem with people talking about other topics and making friendships. 

    And, I totally understand that it frustrates you and others when someone asks a FAQ, but of them don't realize or know where to look.  There's a nice way to let them know or you can just ignore it.  Plus once someone lets them know it's a FAQ and they can search it, what's the purpose of everyone berating the point?</p>
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_destination-wedding-gift-registry?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:ba428a69-d080-43fe-9260-5f8cd8230597Post:bffbfa58-cd0d-4dec-8dc5-bdc35e3a351d">Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry</a>:
    [QUOTE]Clique not click chica. TK already has a reputation, but I hear Weddingbee is always looking for those who love to shoot rainbows up eachother's ass.
    Posted by sparent2010[/QUOTE]

    I didn't realize I was at a spelling bee... But if you want to point that out, FYI, "chica" is not a real word.  And thanks, but I rather be called a lady or a woman...

    <strong>"TK already has a reputation, but I hear Weddingbee is always looking for those who love to shoot rainbows up eachother's ass."  </strong>Wow....lol
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_destination-wedding-gift-registry?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:ba428a69-d080-43fe-9260-5f8cd8230597Post:7a281b89-b0fc-4e46-bfb0-ce1458efa6a6">Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry : I didn't realize I was at a spelling bee... But if you want to point that out, FYI, <strong>"chica" is not a real word.</strong>  And thanks, but I rather be called a lady or a woman... "TK already has a reputation, but I hear Weddingbee is always looking for those who love to shoot rainbows up eachother's ass."  Wow....lol
    Posted by sharp0099[/QUOTE]

    Actually, it <em>is</em> a real word, just not an English word.  So either the Spanish language isn't "real," or you're ignorant.  Hmmm, I wonder which one it is?
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  • edited January 2012
    Sparent makes a monthly trip to Weddingbee for sunshine enemas. Without them, she's quite insufferable. ;)
  • sharp0099sharp0099 member
    100 Comments
    edited January 2012
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_destination-wedding-gift-registry?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:ba428a69-d080-43fe-9260-5f8cd8230597Post:d6bdb79f-5ba5-4b15-a531-f6b67c63a16e">Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry : Actually, it is a real word, just not an English word.  So either the Spanish language isn't "real," or you're ignorant.  Hmmm, I wonder which one it is?
    Posted by StephBeanWed61502[/QUOTE]

    Well, we were typing to each other in English.  It does not make me <em>ignorant</em> for not realizing you used a word from another language.... In English it's a slang word.... Plus I'm not a <em>girl</em>, I'm a <em>woman</em>.
  • Hi, I'm the one who posted the question 2 threads down about honeymoon registry. I am not a regular on here, and was just seeking advice or opinions about the topic. This whole wedding thing is new to me just like it is to everyone else to asks questions on here. While I appreciate your blunt suggestions and comments, I do not appreciate some of the "belittleing" & snide remarks about simple questions being asked. This is an etiquette board and I believe there is an etiquette to advice and opinions as well.
    I can understand where some people would think the HR is completely outside of the "etiquette" box, however I do not necessarily think it's wrong. It's a registry..just like a registry for Bed Bath & Beyond or Pottery Barn. Granted, the items purchased are not tangible, but the entire point remains the same...your basically asking people to spend money on you either way.
    Whatever, I think that I made a huge mistake even coming to these boards to ask a questions because my question turned into someone buying me a monogram water hose...classy!  Basically, all this is is a matter of opinion in the first place.
    When it all comes down to the nitty gritty, your guests are going to do what they want to do for you whether you register at Bed Bath & Beyond or Honeyfund...your family and close friends aren't going to judge you for trying to keep them from wasting their money. When all is said and done, I could care less if anyone bought me anything...I just want the people that mean the most to me with me on my special day.
    It is totally OK to say NO, don't do the HR and explain why...but when people start being sarcastic about what they would buy me if they were invited to my wedding is just ridiculous and too immature for my taste.
    I'm actually quite disappointed in myself for even caring what anyone thought of our idea in the first place.
    So, to whoever wrote this thread...you do what ever you want to do. Some people may say negative things about it (there will always be a few)..but It's YOUR day, it's YOUR wedding..Happy Planning!
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_destination-wedding-gift-registry?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:ba428a69-d080-43fe-9260-5f8cd8230597Post:5ae217aa-cbab-431a-86ee-bdc671312b8b">Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry</a>:
    [QUOTE]Sparent makes a monthly trip to Weddingbee for sunshine enemas. Without them, she's quite insufferable. ;)
    Posted by specialk84[/QUOTE]

    LOL
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_destination-wedding-gift-registry?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:ba428a69-d080-43fe-9260-5f8cd8230597Post:fd4bc14b-1149-4344-ad9d-9a449416c7a8">Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry</a>:
    [QUOTE]Hi, I'm the one who posted the question 2 threads down about honeymoon registry. I am not a regular on here, and was just seeking advice or opinions about the topic. This whole wedding thing is new to me just like it is to everyone else to asks questions on here. While I appreciate your blunt suggestions and comments, I do not appreciate some of the "belittleing" & snide remarks about simple questions being asked. This is an etiquette board and I believe there is an etiquette to advice and opinions as well. I can understand where some people would think the HR is completely outside of the "etiquette" box, however I do not necessarily think it's wrong. It's a registry..just like a registry for Bed Bath & Beyond or Pottery Barn. Granted, the items purchased are not tangible, but the entire point remains the same...your basically asking people to spend money on you either way. Whatever, I think that I made a huge mistake even coming to these boards to ask a questions because my question turned into someone buying me a monogram water hose...classy!  Basically, all this is is a matter of opinion in the first place. When it all comes down to the nitty gritty, your guests are going to do what they want to do for you whether you register at Bed Bath & Beyond or Honeyfund...your family and close friends aren't going to judge you for trying to keep them from wasting their money. When all is said and done, I could care less if anyone bought me anything...I just want the people that mean the most to me with me on my special day. It is totally OK to say NO, don't do the HR and explain why...but when people start being sarcastic about what they would buy me if they were invited to my wedding is just ridiculous and too immature for my taste. I'm actually quite disappointed in myself for even caring what anyone thought of our idea in the first place. So, to whoever wrote this thread...you do what ever you want to do. Some people may say negative things about it (there will always be a few)..but It's YOUR day, it's YOUR wedding..Happy Planning!
    Posted by boo his[/QUOTE]

    The difference with an HMR is that any company that does one will take a percentage of your/your guest's money.  If you guests want to help you out w/ a honeymoon, they're better off writing you a check and kicking the middle man out.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_destination-wedding-gift-registry?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:ba428a69-d080-43fe-9260-5f8cd8230597Post:5ae217aa-cbab-431a-86ee-bdc671312b8b">Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry</a>:
    [QUOTE]Sparent makes a monthly trip to Weddingbee for sunshine enemas. Without them, she's quite insufferable. ;)
    Posted by specialk84[/QUOTE]

    <p class="MsoNormal">Wow.... there's the PM option for a reason.... This is just another example of the clicky behavior that makes others feel unwelcome... </p>
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_destination-wedding-gift-registry?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:ba428a69-d080-43fe-9260-5f8cd8230597Post:b6935f7f-cb88-4169-a3cf-b13c10173af4">Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Destination Wedding Gift Registry : Wow.... there's the PM option for a reason.... This is just another example of the clicky behavior that makes others feel unwelcome...
    Posted by sharp0099[/QUOTE]

    I think you might need a rainbow enema too. It might remove the stick that is clearly lodged up there.
  • Ugh.  Okay.  Two things:

    1. Poor OP.  She asked a question, got her answer, and now everyone else has blown up her thread fighting.  While I agree that there was a lot of bluntness in the beginning of the thread, Sharp, you are hardly doing the OP any favors by continuing an argument here.

    2. Re: HMR.  The problems I have with them is that they are false advertising.  They promise gift givers that they are buying beachfront massages or dolphin swims, but really they give cash to the couple.  And the registry takes a cut of the cash.  Why not just bypass the middle man?  Don't have a registry, and if anyone asks, say that you don't really need household items, but you and FI are saving up for XYZ?  Most people will get the hint and give you cash.  The ones who weren't comfortable giving cash as a gift will give you some sort of boxed present. 

    Also, I'm not a fan of asking guests to fund a completely voluntary vacation.  Plan the HM you can afford.  If your guests give you a bunch of cash, you can use it for a fancy night out or an extra excursion during the HM. 
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