Oh goddess, it's slow.

yuodelj · August 2009

KA2 Do you believe the Bible is a guide or is to be taken as literal fact?I'm uncomfortable with some of the things that you are saying....

KA2 · August 2009

@ yuodelj - I believe the Bible is the word of God as it is written. yes, I know a lot of people disagree with this and will disagree with what I believe.

yuodelj · August 2009

tlv204 I think you and I are of the same mind...

ggmae · August 2009

KA - I respect your beliefs, but obviously don't agree with them. I married a man with very similar beliefs, so I in no way think that these beliefs make someone a horrible person. I understand that the Bible is taken very seriously by a lot of people, myself not included. Thanks for explaining yourself to us.

AmoroAgain · August 2009

I should state that I believe that there is something larger than all of us out there. I don't call it by a name, though god is referenced because it's what we're used to. But I'd be just as comfortable referring to it as Allah, Yahweh, Bhagwan, Shangdi... you get the point. Though some people see the Bible as intrinsically flawed (such as myself), I don't see other religious texts in that way. The Q'ran was never meant to be translated from Arabic because of the fear of mistranslation. In fact, it's only been recently that it has been allowed to be translated. However, Muslims do not believe that the Q'ran is a guide. It is an exact record of how a Muslim should behave everday. We find that in the words of man, the Q'ran is misinterpreted and changed.However. At the end of the day, because of the world of change in which we live- because of the difference between today and 2000 years ago, we cannot use religion as the standing point for our morality any longer. Religion didn't invent morality, it merely fortified it with fear of punishment. Now, the state has taken over that role, and it is for the state and for the people of that government, to decide what their moral basis is. If it is that we choose to treat all those who may be different from us in the same manner, then that is how our morality should be defined. If somehow, the earth opens up and swallows the US whole because it allowed gays the rights they should have, so be it. We'll know we were wrong. But for me, without that tangible proof of "God's" wrath against us, I'll choose to treat everyone with the respect they deserve until proven otherwise.

sucrets4 · August 2009

But KA, what about translations? It was not written in English, so how can you possibly understand the TRUE word if you don't read it in the original language?

yuodelj · August 2009

*sigh*

WildRumpus · August 2009

Ditto ggmae. My FI was raised Pentecostal, and still has a lot of beliefs similar to KA. We agree to disagree on a lot of them.

KA2 · August 2009

@gmmae that's great - Let me add that I do not think that gay people should be ostracized - I may not agree with their lifestyle but the Bible says we should all love one another. So I love them all the same but does not mean I agree with their lifestyle. How else can I show them the love God has for them if I treat them as outcasts?

ggmae · August 2009

Jill - We agree to disagree as well. A LOT. We like to think it makes life more interesting. How boring would it be if DH and I agreed on everything 100%? It makes for good conversation.

yuodelj · August 2009

KA2 Do you believe my Grandpa is going to hell because he is morman? Or my Best friend is going to hell because she is a Jew?These are the reasons I can not take it as fact. I love them and can not see God condeming them to hell. If he does I'd like to go to hell too so I can be with them.

ricksang · August 2009

How else can I show them the love God has for them if I treat them as outcasts?You are treating them as outcasts. You are just sugar coating it with prayer and Christianity.

Leah&Christian09 · August 2009

I may not agree with their lifestyle but the Bible says we should all love one another. So I love them all the same but does not mean I agree with their lifestyle. You still haven't explained why you think that YOUR morals and values should be imposed on other people. Clearly, they do agree with their lifestyle. I think denying people rights based on a characteristic is evil. Does that mean that you should now live by what I believe?

sucrets4 · August 2009

amoro - wonderfully put. brava.

tlv204 · August 2009

Sucrets--I am absolutely with you on the translation thing. This sounds terrible, but if you were a monk in the 5th century and your only job was to hand copy bibles all day, wouldn't you have a little bit of fun with it? Probably monks wouldn't, but I know I would. I also once read somewhere in the context of slaves in the bible that the word used to describe their lashes from whips is the same word used to describe zebra stripes. How do we know which one they meant?

I"m sure there are better examples but you know what I mean.

WildRumpus · August 2009

By saying your against gay rights, you ARE ostracizing them and treating them as outcasts.

KA2 · August 2009

@yuodeljHarsh as it may sound - the Bible says there's only one way to heaven - belief in Jesus Christ as one's personal Lord and Saviour who gave His life that we may live eternally.

yuodelj · August 2009

Ok, I'll call my friend and have fun planning eternity in hell w/ her. Hmmmm....do I want to spend forever burning or being whipped.....oh...I guess burning....I like the whip too much

tlv204 · August 2009

That belief is exactly why I'm not a Christian. When my friend in high school told me that my boyfriend and another friends step father were going to hell because they were Muslim, I stopped speaking to said friend and stopped believing the Bible could possibly be taken literally. Sure it has good lessons, sure we shouldn't steal or commit adultery, but there's so much other BS in there that people conveniently forget. KA--Just out of curiosity, do you eat shellfish?

jilybeans4 · August 2009

I absolutely believe that marriage should be a right for all people - including those that are gay. I have never been so proud to be a resident of somewhere as I was on the day that Iowa made gay marriage legal. I am also proud that the officiant performing our marriage (who leads a Unitarian Universalist Church) also performs gay marriages. I think that says something about him and his beliefs that I approve of. I'm not religious, but I grew up with religion. If there is one positive thing I took away from it, it is that God loves and accepts all people. I think PEOPLE have taken away from that by twisting that to mean different things. If God loves and accepts and CREATED all people, then I think he created and accepts gay people too. It just makes no sense to me that religious/conservative people think that gays calling their union marriage is going to be such a big deal. As others have mentioned, if a gay person is marriage, it does not affect anyone else in any way or take away from anyone else's marriage. It doesn't make your marriage any less valid or special just because a gay person also calls it marriage. Honestly I just can't wrap my mind around that logic because it makes no sense. When I lived in Michigan a few years ago, we voted on whether or not we should add an amendment to the state constitution regarding marriage being between one man and one woman (or something like that). I remember being so frustrated with one of my good friends - she was against gay marriage because of the "sanctity of marriage", and as the same time she was voting no, she was going out in the evenings and cheating on her husband. I was so angry that she could preach about the sanctity of marriage when she obviously was abusing her own. Unfortunately, I don't think this mentality is uncommon.

ggmae · August 2009

Well shiit. According to the Bible then, I'm going to hell and apparently all of the good things I've done in my life thus far mean absolutely nothing in the eyes of God.

tlv204 · August 2009

It doesn't make your marriage any less valid or special just because a gay person also calls it marriage. Honestly I just can't wrap my mind around that logic because it makes no sense.THIS. If conservative Christian people really don't want to "push their beliefs on anyone else," this shouldn't be an issue at all. I"m not saying you should marry a woman, just that you shouldn't stop someone else from doing so.

WildRumpus · August 2009

Ggmae, I'll put in a good word for you. In my mind, God's more of a "Kumbaya" kind of guy than "fire & brimstone"

KA2 · August 2009

umm isn't shellfish generic for aquatic invertebrate that have exoskeleton?so I guess my answer would be yes because I like crab. But in case you're going to say the Bible is against that - Jesus in the new testament did away with that clean/unclean food law from the old testament.

sucrets4 · August 2009

KA - where is that cited? I'm genuinely curious.

mocha beans · August 2009

So all the good things I've done in my life, being kind to others, loving others as they love me, mean shiit because I don't believe in God as the Christian bible puts it? Should we all descend into anarchy as non-christians, cause hey, might as well live it up since we're all going to hell anyway?KA, what's your stance on the Nostic texts? It's quite obvious that the Bible was edited by the church. What if texts that state marriage between two men or two women was lost during the editing?The Bible may be the word of God, originally, but what we have now is the EDITED version, edited 2000 years ago, by man, by a quite possibly corrupt church.

noelle24 · August 2009

KA: What gives you the right to force your belief on others? FINE, you believe being gay is a choice and that only God makes a marriage truly a marriage. You STILL have not answered WHY your beliefs should be forced on others. How would legalizing gay marriage affect you in anyway? Your marriage will still be as valid then as it will be now. If you disagree with it, don't perform gay marriages yourself or attend a church that would. If gay and lesbian men and women can go to the courthouse, sign a document, and have the same legal marriage that you do, HOW does that in any way affect you? By voting against equal rights, you are FORCING your beliefs on other people who may or may not share your own. And what about married couples who do not have a religious marriage ceremony? Is their marriage any less valid than yours? Should they not have the same legal rights to health insurance, etc.?

yuodelj · August 2009

Anyone want an invite to my hell party? Just spoke to my friend and we decided which sins we want to indulge in forever.....sounds really fun! :-)

mocha beans · August 2009

Ah Ha, he did away with that law. Which was in Leviticus, correct? Weren't all those laws done away with? Wasn't no sleeping with men by men also in that? Did Jesus pick and choose? Where in the New Testament does it specifically say gay love is biblically illegal?

Soon-to-be Mrs. Vogt · August 2009

Hopping in way late... 1) Not at all. 2) Live in an hour a sleep a day for weeks at a time. 3) Absolutely for. 4) No, it's the day of rest :)Question to everyone...why attack religion or the people who follow the bible to the letter? Isn't that the same thing as them saying that gays shouldn't have rights because the bible says so? Can't everyone have their own beliefs without others attacking them, as long as they just try to apply them to their own lives and not others? I'm assuming KA doesn't take active steps to stop gay rights. Just as I'm sure others don't take active steps to burn the Bible.

That's why I'm for gay rights (depsite the fact that I was raised to be a strict Catholic)...because who the heck am I to tell others how to live and what rights they should have? I certainly wouldn't want someone imposing their beliefts about my rights on me. And I believe that marriage is a legal union. It doesn't have anything to do with religion because you can be married without it being a religious ceremony under the law. I can certainly see why a church wouldn't recognize it as such, but that's between a couple and their individual religion.

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