Oh goddess, it's slow.

anna.oskar · August 2009

Holy crap. I go out to get groceries and look what I miss.

ricksang · August 2009

So true Vogt. So true.

sucrets4 · August 2009

KA - perhaps I will.But I wonder about this: something that was considered wrong for awhile was all of a sudden changed in the New Testament? And if God said it was wrong in the Old Testament and Jesus corrected him, doesn't that mean that everything else could potentially be up for debate? That's it's not very clearly a black/white issue?

Soon-to-be Mrs. Vogt · August 2009

GG and others...I didn't mean to point fingers at you saying you were being rude or trying to impose your beliefs on KA. I'm sorry if it sounded like that!

noelle24 · August 2009

I'm sorry, but I find it very hard to believe that you'd be okay with living in one of the conservative Islamic countries where you had to wear a burka or couldn't be seen in society with a man who wasn't a relative. Or where you couldn't have job or drive a car.It may not contradict your beliefs with the Bible, but it certainly would drastically change how you were able to live your life. I can't see anyone being okay with making those sacrifices for a religion that isn't even their own.

Soon-to-be Mrs. Vogt · August 2009

Along the lines of Sucrets, I have a question...Isn't God supposed to be the only all-knowing being? So, how can we claim to know exactly how to live/thing/behave? If it was so clear, would we need religious leaders to help us interpret and understand the teachings of the Bible?

ggmae · August 2009

Vogt - It didn't.

I just realize that I said things like "Being gay is not a choice" so I figured that it applied to me as well.

KA2 · August 2009

@ sucrets according to the Bible - the people of those times in the old testament were very hard headed and wanted definite black and white for dealing with every little issue. I'm not entirely sure why at the time God put certain classes of animals and clean vs unclean. I do not attempt to logically reason out why God does what He does. Mainly because the Bible says:Isaiah 55:8-9 8 “My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the Lord. “And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine. 9 For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.Faith for me is believing God and what the Bible says no matter how ridiculous it may sound to others. Faith is believing in something that you cannot see or logically explain. So God has His reasons - I may not understand 100% but perhaps I can get some explanation in heaven - if it's still relevant to me then.

Soon-to-be Mrs. Vogt · August 2009

Well, isn't there scientific proof, GG, that says being gay isn't a choice? Noelle - what about Christians in this country who believe that teaching/converting others to Christanity is part of their faith, but is contrary to many laws (for example, what if that person is a teacher and is forced to teach evolution when his/her religion says creation should be taught?) Just playing devil's advocate again

Leah&Christian09 · August 2009

I don't think anyone is trying to convince KA. Rather, they are trying to understand her POV, and follow the logic.I think a lot of us continue to ask her over and over why she believes that she can impose her morals on anyone else, but she continues to ignore that question. Separation of church and state means that we don't create laws just because of religion. It's all well and good that gay people can't get married in churches that won't allow it. I don't think there is anyone that thinks that this should be the case. The state is supposed to stay out of religion, so churches get to make this call. Churches, however, are supposed to do the same thing with the state. Churches should not force the state not to allow gay marriage just because of religion. There is such a thing as a legal marriage, and it is completely independant of religion or god. People get married at the JOP every day, and god isn't involved. The church should have nothing to do with this. There is simply no argument other than religion to prohibit gay JOP marriage. The church should not be involved in legal, secular marriages.

mocha beans · August 2009

Noelle hit it on the head. Religious law can't be used to govern human nations if not all the people are that religion. Because if one law goes against the bible, you still have to follow the human nation laws.

tlv204 · August 2009

Sometimes I wish I had real faith. I believe in God, but not Christianity, but I often wonder what it would be like to just fully believe something without questioning it. I don't think I've experienced that feeling since I was about 4.At the same time, I really really enjoy being able to question everything. That's the good part of being a human as opposed to a bird or something.

ggmae · August 2009

Vogt - I've heard of studies that have shown that there is a "gay gene" and others that haven't. So, who knows!

ricksang · August 2009

I am not going to quote Leah, b/c we all look like we are quoting each othor, but I agree!

KA2 · August 2009

@ noelle, yes it would change how I am able to live my life - But I was already brought up in a society where going around town often with a man that is not a relative or your fiance is already frowned upon. In fact my grandfather initially thought it ridiculous that his daughter wanted to go to college and law school - interestingly his only child that has continued the practice through his law firm. My society has definitely changed a lot of over the last generation. But maybe just because of my background and upbringing - I am very unAmerican in a lot ways. If for some reason I had to live in a country where I had to cover my head and stay indoors then I would oblige so long as it did not affect my ability to practice my faith. I would have a very good reason for being there, otherwise I would leave.

KA2 · August 2009

@ Leah I think you missed my post about how I defined marriage as being ordained by God not by humans and therefore, He getting to call the shots on what marriage is and isn't.I prefaced my beliefs with that statement. So just like the US govt at some point decided what the road laws for driving would be, they get to call the shots (I don't know that this is the best example out there just pulled that out)God instituted marriage as being between a man and woman. Again like I said - this is based on my faith that God created the world and everything in it. He gets to call the shots.

tlv204 · August 2009

KA- serious question. If for some reason it was made legal in all 50 states for homosexuals to marry, would you leave the country? To those who say she still hasn't answered the question about imposing her faith on others, I'm pretty sure the answer to that was that she doesn't want to live in a society that condones that, and therefore has a right to vote to keep society as in line with her beliefs as possibe. Correct me if I"m wrong KA. This is also why I'm asking if you would leave. How much law of the land against your beliefs would it take to get you to move elsewhere to a place more in line with your beliefs?

Soon-to-be Mrs. Vogt · August 2009

Maybe someone who is Jewish can correct me, but isn't it part of the Jewish faith to question God and his teachings?This has always been part of my personal faith with God (I identify with one organized religion, but believe my faith goes deeper than a group of peoples' beliefs.) Anyway - I think doubt is part of a normal relationship with anyone, so it should extend to the relationship with God. I don't think complete faith has to be part of an organized religion, tlv. Or, at least, I don't think it has to be - I think the best people to promote religion and have ultimate faith are the ones who question the inconsistencies and find answers that work within the teachings of their religion/faith.

Leah&Christian09 · August 2009

Ok, so let me just make sure I understand. You think that your view is in line with god's, and therefore you are entitled to impose your (god's) view on everyone else?Do you acknowledge that civil marriage is independant of any religion or church?

Soon-to-be Mrs. Vogt · August 2009

Leah - what if she believes that it goes against God's beliefs for her to do something like vote for an ammendment that would support gay marriage?Not to put words in your mouth, KA. Just curious.

KA2 · August 2009

@ tlv I am not American, and I actually live in this country because I came here to get an education. I am ready to leave as soon as I am done with that. This is not only of this issue of gay rights that is spreading across the country or the notion that sexuality is choice. But the separation of Church and State - disregard for God - not allowing prayers in schools. I am worried about my children being raised in such a society and being exposed to such.

Ciaram22 · August 2009

KA2 where are you from?

louisvillebride21 · August 2009

I have been raised Southern Baptist, although I do not agree/adhere to a lot of the tenents. My dad is a preacher and he has the same questions I do. How do you reconcile the fact that the Jews are God's choosen people...yet he says that no man shall find Him, except through Jesus Christ His Son? As previously asked but not answered, what about the Nostic texts? There were several other chapters that were deemed either innapropriate or not important enough to go into the bible. How do you account for all the different sects of Christianity? What am I supposed to believe? I was raised as a Southern Baptist, but recently 'converted' to Methodist. Yes, similar, but their are differences. What do you do with Catholics that praise Jesus' mother more feverently than Jesus himself? What did she do? All she did was give birth to him. So Jesus' acts weren't important, just his mother? What about snake handling? ALL of these people are doing what "God" is telling them to do. Is God telling all these people different things? In that case, WHO IS RIGHT???

ggmae · August 2009

KA - Personally I am worried about my future children being raised in a society where people do not accept others for their differences. I plan to teach my children about diversity and and will allow them to make their own decisions.

KA2 · August 2009

I'm from West Africa.

tlv204 · August 2009

Gotcha. Where would you like to live, just out of curiosity?

Soon-to-be Mrs. Vogt · August 2009

Freedom of religion means we can't tell people not to pray in schools. The only thing we can't do is force people to pray in school. Everyone is entitled to celebrate their individual religions whenever they want.

KA2 · August 2009

back at home.

KA2 · August 2009

@ louiseville bride - I think all the different denominations of Christianity has done more harm than good. I look to the Bible to guide me not any one particular denomination- although I am a member of a pentecostal church. Whatever I heard being preached I cross check against the Bible.

louisvillebride21 · August 2009

Oh, and I tend to agree with Whit. I was raised to believe that it was wrong...not just wrong, but nasty. I can't honestly say I agree with that anymore. I know that my best friend...a lesbian...would certainly not choose to be like that. She has hated who she is for years. She just wants to be 'normal'. Its certianly not a choice for her. Because I have a hard time seperating church and state in my mind, I don't know what I think. I certainly think that they should be allowed every single legal right that I am. Which would be solved by a JOP, legal union. My internal fight comes in when calling it a 'marriage'. I don't know what I believe there. All I know is that it's not my place to judge anyone, that's my God's job. I'll leave all that hard work to him and continue to love my best friend.

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