Bullying Gone Too Far?

angiebear11 · July 2010

http://www.slate.com/id/2260952/entry/2260953/?GT1=38001

What do you guys think of this?

I think it's ridiculous. Is bullying wrong? Yes. Worthy of jail time? Not, if anyone wasn't physically harmed. Where can this lead too? I don't understand how someone can be charged for being responsible for someone else's suicide. If I ever breakup with my FI and he kills himself because of a "broken heart" am I going to be charged for murder?

This going to be a post and run, because I going to lunch... but I thought it would make for a good discussion.

J&K10910 · July 2010

But you can get jail time for harassment. And I would certainly call what they're being charged with harassment. So yeah, if they're convicted, I think they should get jail time.

baystateapple · July 2010

I think they should definitely be charged with harassment. The article you posted doesn't say anything about them being charged for murder -- are they?

The poor girl clearly had a lot of emotional issues. She'd already attempted suicide once, practiced self-mutilation, and was doing drugs. I'm sure the bullying didn't help her at all, but I don't think that you can condemn these kids for a decision that Phoebe made on her own. She had a lot of emotional problems, and their harassment definitely helped to her over the edge. But you can't call that murder.

kaesha · July 2010

The psychological damage that results from instances of bullying is often times far worse than any physical scars. It's certainly longer lasting. Fundamentally speaking, I put it in the same as psychological torture. It's deliberate and often times (at least in my teaching experience) kids are genuinely out to destroy each other. You breaking up with your FI isn't bullying... not unless you were be out to systematically break down his sense of self worth.

I'm all for consequences for bullying. I don't know that jail will teach these kids anything though.

Simply Fated · July 2010

The article says that the kid, Sean, is being charged with rape. Then it goes on to say how he lost his football scholarship... as if we're supposed to feel bad for him for his life being turned upside-down.

I don't buy it when people say:
"And it's hard to see how any of the kids going to trial this fall ever could have anticipated the consequences of their actions, for Phoebe or for themselves."
Bullies know exactly what the consequences could be and they hope for them.

Does this writer, Emily Bazelon, really want any of us to believe that those two students didn't know what the consequences could be?

Bullying impedes other's right to a proper education in a safe environment. Of course it should be punishable.

Their crimes might not have left visual bruises or cuts, but their crimes aren't any less severe. Ten years might sound harsh now, but if it was physical harm would it still sound harsh?

angiebear11 · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:67b39a94-f1ef-4cc8-b3fb-ac59f15a8c3c">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]But you can get jail time for harassment. And I would certainly call what they're being charged with harassment. So yeah, if they're convicted, I think they should get jail time.
Posted by J&K10910[/QUOTE]

So what about "Cyber Bullying" is that harassment? I've seen particulary people on the boards get made fun or called names on more than one occasion by particular posters. Should those posters be charged with harrassment?

polichik · July 2010

Yep, I don't feel too sorry for them. Psychological torture can be horrifying, and the human mind can only take so much. Especially when you consider that adolescent brains aren't even close to fully developed, and they usually don't have a fully formed sense of self. Before you have that, it can be extremely difficult to set aside horrible things that other say and do to you.

tldh · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:cbf6bd2a-afbc-4d53-b823-b60039d46fb8">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]The psychological damage that results from instances of bullying is often times far worse than any physical scars. It's certainly longer lasting. Fundamentally speaking, I put it in the same as psychological torture. It's deliberate and often times (at least in my teaching experience) kids are genuinely out to destroy each other. You breaking up with your FI isn't bullying... not unless you were be out to systematically break down his sense of self worth. I'm all for consequences for bullying. I don't know that jail will teach these kids anything though.
Posted by kaesha[/QUOTE]

You couldn't be more right Kaesha. I was a quiet (and financially poor) kid bullied for eight years of elementary school. The nuns didn't do anything because they thought it would toughen me up and the lay teachers didn't do anything (in fact blamed me) because the kids of two of them were the ringleaders. They thought I was exaggerating what the kids were doing and outright lying about their own kids or instigating what they actually witnessed.

It was anything they could pick on or make up rumors about me. My parents didn't have a lot of money but what they did have went toward paying Catholic school tuition so my curly hair could never be tamed, my glasses were hopelessly thick and out of style, I didn't have the hair accessories and jewelry everyone else did, couldn't go to amusement parks or any place that required admission, etc. My life was a living hell.

It wasn't until I was in high school that I began to open up and become my own person. Even though I have a successful professional life now, a wonderful FI and friends who always have my back without being asked, I am still plagued by self doubt and wondering what I'm doing wrong that people will criticize. It takes a lot for me to walk into a room full of strangers and be comfortable. I learned in law school how to not only do this but be charming also and honestly, I owe that to my friend whose family not only became my family away from home but brought me into the Irish American community where you have no choice but to be gregarious.

waltzingmatilda13 · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:f2d72482-ecb7-4845-bcd9-93b0b79598e3">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bullying Gone Too Far? : So what about "Cyber Bullying" is that harassment? I've seen particulary people on the boards get made fun or called names on more than one occasion by particular posters. Should those posters be charged with harrassment?
Posted by angiebear11[/QUOTE]

I think that only applies when others go out looking for them on the internet just to make fun of them or post a bunch of things or pictures that make fun. Or send hundreds of emails. People who constantly return to a website where they know people don't like them must be gluttons for punishment.

angiebear11 · July 2010

I'm not saying that the bullys shouldn't be responsible for their actions. But I think 10 years of jail is taking it too far. Lets say I get into a verbal argument with someone and I call them a slut, the next day they are so upset that they decided to take a day off work. And not that this is likely to happen, but lets say that by taking a day off work they get fired. Should I then be responsible for their lost wages?

I know that is far-fetched, but I just don't think that in the case of the article, the punishment fits the crime.

J&K10910 · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:1f5dada3-55a8-4e77-8314-d9db0cc7d57e">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]The article says that the kid, Sean, is being charged with rape.
Posted by Simply Fated[/QUOTE]

Well, technically it says statutory rape which can be a little different.

But anyways, Angie, I didn't say that cyber bullying was automatically harassment. I said what they have alledgedly done sure sounds like harassment to me. I see a difference in people getting called out for saying stupid things on an internet message board and someone being harassed for months over the internet.

L-Bride · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:f2d72482-ecb7-4845-bcd9-93b0b79598e3">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bullying Gone Too Far? : So what about "Cyber Bullying" is that harassment? I've seen particulary people on the boards get made fun or called names on more than one occasion by particular posters. Should those posters be charged with harrassment?
Posted by angiebear11[/QUOTE]

Yes, "cyber bullying" is harassment. I also think there's a difference of adult brides being harassed and their coping mechanisms with what we are coming in contact with on the internet. If I get ostracized on this wedding board, I log off and go about my life. When kids are being brutally harrassed by their peers (not just at school but at home too) they go into depressions and think their world has ended..
I feel bullying has always been a problem but unfortunately it's been glamorized to be a mean girl and combined with technology something needs to be done.

J&K10910 · July 2010

Yeah, but if 10 years is the maximum penalty for the crime they have allegedly committed, then that's the penalty. Are you familar with this case beyond this one article?

Anyway, I'm quite sure that even if they are convicted they won't be sentenced to 10 years in prison.

angiebear11 · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:ad24c464-14dc-41f0-a6ab-3772b15ae021">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bullying Gone Too Far? : Have you read anything about this case beyond the Slate article?
Posted by mag920[/QUOTE]

No, and I'm not claiming to know the particulars of the case. I just wanted to start a healthy debate/dicussion about bullying.

angiebear11 · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:570137a7-6890-44fd-876b-aa27687592c5">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]In addition to what the Slate article offered (which wasn't that much) these same students also flooded Phoebe's memorial site with slurs and "good riddance" etc. It went far beyond a bit of "Whore" on a FB wall.
Posted by mag920[/QUOTE]

And that's terrible. But not 10 years worth of jail time terrible.

missy68 · July 2010

Mag, I'm guessing your answer is probably no.

J&K10910 · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:43e7bf70-1352-4f32-b447-f7750a4c882e">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bullying Gone Too Far? : And that's terrible. But not 10 years worth of jail time terrible.
Posted by angiebear11[/QUOTE]

Would your opinion of the situation be different if it was a more traditional harassment case? I feel like you're letting the term "cyber bullying" have way more of an effect on your opinion that you should. If what has been put out there is found to be true, it's a pretty clear cut harassment case, in my opinion.

goheels05 · July 2010

Ditto Mag. Angie, you're not painting yourself in a great light here. Get educated before you come in here all guns a'blazin. Your stance is insulting to those of us who have followed the case since day 1.

L-Bride · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:90b7fe22-d23b-452a-b036-819b95d52b22">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]Do you understand that it wasn't just cyber-bullying? Do you get the dynamics of that particular high school? That community? What the history of bullying is at this school? What type of administration is in place? <strong>What's happening now state-wide because of it?
</strong>Posted by mag920[/QUOTE]

Exactly, kids are finally being held accountable for their actions. What a strange thing these days. People need to understand that bullying is not a rite of passage of growing up. It's wrong and it's getting worse everywhere.

AmoroAgain · July 2010

*snort* because you know nothing about being a bully, right Heels? Ammiright?

goheels05 · July 2010

Prior to Phoebe killing herself, other girls transferred schools because they were being bullied so relentlessly by the same girls who bullied Phoebe. It wasn't just cyberbulling; it was going on in the school right under the nose of the administration. The article you posted is an opinion piece, and a slanted one at that. You did learn the difference between fact and opinion in school, right?

angiebear11 · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:f3077a55-c2c9-43fc-927a-9c511819572c">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bullying Gone Too Far? : For someone who doesn't know the particulars, you seem to have a pretty strong opinion on the outcome.
Posted by mag920[/QUOTE]

I have a strong opinion in general that another person can't be held responsible for someone's suicide. From what I read in the article the physical harm the bullies are being charged with is her suicide. I don't agree with that. IHMO suicide is how someone decides to deal with a problem. That girl chose to commit suicide in order to not deal with the bullies any more. I'm not saying that bullies had a right to harass this girl, but if she decided to go to therapy or move, should the bullies be responsible for her medical bills or moving expenses?

J&K10910 · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:e5c677cf-88e3-4eb6-8b51-1ac8e12af9e1">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bullying Gone Too Far? : Exactly, kids are finally being held accountable for their actions. What a strange thing these days. People need to understand that bullying is not a rite of passage of growing up. It's wrong and it's getting worse everywhere.
Posted by L-Bride[/QUOTE]

Heaven forbid kids get held accountable when they do awful things. personally, I'm tired of the line "It's high school, of course kids are going to get bullied." Bullshit. Yeah, unfortunately it's ridiculously common, but what gets me about it is that most of the time, nothing is done. That's not the way it should be.

goheels05 · July 2010

You are so right, Amoro. Things I've said on a wedding website are totally comparable to calling someone an Irish slut and telling her to off herself. It's kind of like I virtually threw a coke can at a poster's head and totally got away with it. Hell, sometimes I even mail knotties a noose because i'm that much of a badass.

AmoroAgain · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:5cb31e09-9165-4042-a198-a048dfde81b0">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]You are so right, Amoro. Things I've said on a wedding website are totally comparable to calling someone an Irish slut and telling her to off herself. It's kind of like I virtually threw a coke can at a poster's head and totally got away with it. Hell, sometimes I even mail knotties a noose because i'm that much of a badass.
Posted by goheels05[/QUOTE]
Indeed.

L-Bride · July 2010

Angie: I get what you're saying. My question is how do you suggest teen suicide (for kids that are bullied) is dealt with?

goheels05 · July 2010

Rich coming from you--someone who's been banned and even reprimanded by KA for the things you've said.

angiebear11 · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:66919892-e132-43aa-b233-c6a6f9682f4a">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]Ditto Mag. Angie, you're not painting yourself in a great light here. Get educated before you come in here all guns a'blazin. Your stance is insulting to those of us who have followed the case since day 1.
Posted by goheels05[/QUOTE]

You're right, I take it all back. I couldn't possible have any opinion on bullying because this is the first time I've ever heard of bullying and I haven't been following the particulars of this case since "day 1"

J&K10910 · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:d85bd819-591a-4306-90f2-2dbe3359f5b3">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bullying Gone Too Far? : I have a strong opinion in general that another person can't be held responsible for someone's suicide. From what I read in the article the physical harm the bullies are being charged with is her suicide. I don't agree with that. IHMO suicide is how someone decides to deal with a problem. That girl chose to commit suicide in order to not deal with the bullies any more. <strong> I'm not saying that bullies had a right to harass this girl, but if she decided to go to therapy or move, should the bullies be responsible for her medical bills or moving expenses?</strong>
Posted by angiebear11[/QUOTE]

Yes, if they were charged with a crime and that was part of the sentence, absolutely.

Do I recall correctly that you're in the legal field, Angie? If so, you should know that attorneys often charge people with the most "severe" crime they legally can, in hopes of getting them convicted of SOMETHING, even if it's lesser (like...oh, say, harassment, perhaps?). It's not like they're charging them with murder. That I don't agree with.

goheels05 · July 2010

Angie, I kind of get what you are saying, too, but kids need to be sent a message that bullying won't be tolerated. And if these twats have to go to jail for 10 years to get that message across and save future kids from dealing with similar crap, then so be it.

AmoroAgain · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:76e0fe31-ad8f-4612-93b5-30b7be03b6c2">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]Rich coming from you--someone who's been banned and even reprimanded by KA for the things you've said.
Posted by goheels05[/QUOTE]

<div>Of course.</div>

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