Are knotties the only etiquette minded people out there??

crunchymamaof2 · June 2013

I'm the first to admit I didn't know much about etiquette before coming to TK, but in my gut it didn't feel right deciding to go with the open bar for cocktail hour only and cash for the rest. Wasn't sure about +1's and dates and some other stuff. But as soon as I learned better I immediately did what I could to make sure we would be properly hosting. I don't want to offend anyone or be one of the brides talked about on here. I was thankful I learned better before the wedding! But why does it seem like very few others feel this way?

Many of the ladies on Wedding Wire love to go on and on about how rude all of you are and how no one better dare come to the Knot. There have been argument upon argument over proper etiquette and many over there think its a regional thing. Like somehow, cash bars are okay in the Midwest and honeymoon jars are great for poor people! (something I've also seen on here recently, *ahem*). I don't consider etiquette to be regional, am I wrong? At least in the US. Just because something is accepted, it can still be against etiquette. And just because no one says they're offended to your face doesn't mean they aren't talking about you behind your back. But it's YOUR DAY!!!! and you should plan it however YOU want, screw the guests! That's the vibe I get. Even on The Knot's Wedding 911 app. Some military woman wanted to secretly get married and have her PPD later and when I and the 2-3 other etiquette minded people posted about how wrong she was we were attacked. Because those in the military deserve special treatment ya know. *eye roll*

Sorry for the rant, but is etiquette really that foreign to so many? I'm shocked at how many knowingly treat their guests like crap even after learning otherwise. Is etiquette regional? Why is the knot so knowledgeable and everywhere else so..."special"? The other forums are like a trainwreck where you just can't look away.

AddieCake · June 2013

I think a lot of it is also that so many people now have such an entitled, do-what-they-want attitude. Not just about weddings, but life in general. I see ridiculous and rude behavior all around on a daily basis.

misssunshine17 · June 2013

Addie is right. and Etiquette is not regional. For instance, in my area, cash bars are the 99% norm and are really accepted as not rude, but do you really think my family is going mad that we're paying for their booze??

harper0813 · June 2013

I think many people mistake "Etiquette" as a big book of rules, like which flatware to use for which courses and how to politely sneeze in public. But etiquette is just treating others kindly and the way you'd like to be treated. It's being a good guest, host, citizen, and person in general, regardless of how other people behave.

It's remarkable how many people have lost (or never had) sight of that.

hordol · June 2013

misssunshine17 said:

Addie is right. and Etiquette is not regional. For instance, in my area, cash bars are the 99% norm and are really accepted as not rude, but do you really think my family is going mad that we're paying for their booze??

Same here--I am hosting all of our alcohol, but I honestly have never been to a wedding before that hasn't had a cash bar (at least at a time when I was old enough to drink--not sure about the weddings I attended when I was younger.) Because of how normal it is here (I'm a midwesterner) it doesn't offend me, but that doesn't mean I think it's the "right" thing to do. So I'm sure I will have people at my wedding that are pleasantly surprised that their drinks are free, but it makes me feel a lot better to know I'm hosting properly, whether or not it's common around here to do that.

southernbelle0915 · June 2013

IMHO....
Wire and Bees = YOUR day!! Do whatever YOU want and eff the rest
TK = make your day special, but take care of your guests

I will say TK jumps on newbies quickly and I think they get overwhelmed, but our intent isn't to make them feel like assholes... It's because we care that they come off as gracious hosts to their guests and they don't have after the fact face palms.

AddieCake · June 2013

zobird said:

I think many people mistake "Etiquette" as a big book of rules, like which flatware to use for which courses and how to politely sneeze in public. But etiquette is just treating others kindly and the way you'd like to be treated. It's being a good guest, host, citizen, and person in general, regardless of how other people behave. It's remarkable how many people have lost (or never had) sight of that.

So much this. I have even seen newbs on here appear to be rolling their eyes at the word "etiquette" like it's some stuffy, archaic concept reserved for old ladies.

Peledreamsofrain · June 2013

I won't disparage other wedding websites, but I did notice the same thing when I was getting married and planning.

MrsMack10612 · June 2013

I think PPs are spot on with the sense of entitlement that seems to be running rampant in the world.

I definitely knew some things before coming to TK, but learned a lot more by being here. I've also become a lot more judgey about people who do not follow some of the etiquette rules I've learned here.

msuprincess04 · June 2013

I think people tend to get the "it's my wedding I can do whatever I want" attitude to justify every decision they make. We try to help brides who care more about taking care of their guests then doing strictly what the bride wants. Some, don't make that effort, or go off simply what they see in magazines and on Pintrest (I am amazed at a terrible stuff there!)

I just want to throw a great party. And I'm trying to take all the advice I see on here to heart. Am I following everything to the letter? No. But I'm making an effort to do all I can within my budget to keep my guests happy and be a proper host. After all, they are spending time and money to be with us on our day. We want them to be as care-free as possible.

wittykitty14 · June 2013

MrsMack10612 said:

I think PPs are spot on with the sense of entitlement that seems to be running rampant in the world.

I definitely knew some things before coming to TK, but learned a lot more by being here. I've also become a lot more judgey about people who do not follow some of the etiquette rules I've learned here.

Ditto every word of this from me

MrsMack10612 · June 2013

We spent 50%+ of our budget on food, booze and music. We wanted our guests to have the best possible experience.

StephJean83 · June 2013

A morning show crew I follow on FB posted a question froma bride who wanted to tell her guests what to wear so her pictures would be perfect. The show hosts said they thought she was being cray cray but so many listeners said it is OK to put "Cocktail Attire" or "Black Tie" on the invite. One person said they have a photography business and they tell brides to put it on the invites because if someone wears a Neon Green top it will ruin the pictures.

I think regionally some people accept things like dollar dances or cash bars as being ok and people don't bat an eye if they see it. I don't plan on having a dollar dance and I am fighting my FH on having an open bar. I think with getting bar prices from our venues we are considering I was able to convince FH to do an open bar.

Kate61487 · June 2013

It's definitely an entitlement thing. No where, regionally, is it acceptable to throw a fit because your cousin got engaged after you and married before you. The "MY day" (or month or year) thing has been totally fostered by all the wedding shows, too. (SYTTD, Four Weddings, etc.)

TerriHugg · June 2013

I think the problem is that etiquette is seen as a rule book and not about catering to your guests. I personally used etiquette as a general rule of thumb and balanced that to catering to my particular audience. There are a lot of things with "wedding etiquette" that really go against my guests and there are others that coincide with it.

For example etiquette dictates you must send invites a few weeks before the wedding. However, my family member are from countries that require visas and needed proof of a wedding to obtain such visa so I had to send my invites sooner than etiquette dictates in order to cater to my guests. Had I not, my guests would have seen me as being a poor host and then would have talked about me behind my back as others claim. So people just have a hard time understanding what etiquette is actually about and how to adequately apply it to their wedding.

Secondly, in all honestly I kind of second @southernbelle0915 in regards to jumping on newbies. I do think that sometimes, we can get a little overzealous with "helping" brides that it comes of as attacking. I definitely think we can stand to ask them more questions before automatically assuming they just don't know what they are doing and that they're idea really is rude. (Please not that I am not attacking anyone with this comment or pointing fingers at any one person as I included myself in this critique as well. It's just a general observation.) For example, I think myself and other people included get a little too judgmental when it comes to vow renewals and automatically associate them with pretty princess days when in actuality the bride could be doing everything right. While I don't agree with pretty princess days, there is definitely a big difference between that and a vow renewal, yet some people forget to see that they are different.

So really I think entitlement is only part of the problem. The problems comes from the fact that some people don't know what etiquette is about and see it as just rules and our somewhat judgmental approach to some situations before we hear the whole story. The problem is from both sides sometimes.

vineheart137 · June 2013

Honestly before coming to TK I was fairly clueless about weddings. I was never the type to freak if, say, my sister decided to have her wedding the same month as me, but before my engagement I received invites to weddings with registry info included and I didn't bat an eye. Luckily I brushed up on my etiquette before my own wedding, but unless you search for the info or you have an etiquette knowledgeable friend to help, it's not exactly common info like not yawning in someone's face is.

That being said, when some brides are told the truth they get way too defensive, and it comes back to the entitlement thing. "It's MY day, my way or the highway." I don't see how that doesn't come off as obnoxious to anyone.

NYCBruin · June 2013

Kate61487 said:
It's definitely an entitlement thing. No where, regionally, is it acceptable to throw a fit because your cousin got engaged after you and married before you. The "MY day" (or month or year) thing has been totally fostered by all the wedding shows, too. (SYTTD, Four Weddings, etc.)

I totally agree. I also think these shows feed into the idea that things are more important people. These shows suggest that you somehow aren't really married if you don't have all these elaborate trappings. The emphasis on things like venue, dress, and decor and the de-emphasis on making guests feel comfortable supports this absurd idea.

Etiquette is pretty basic. It's really just about doing your best to make your guests comfortable. That should be a priority on your wedding day as your guests are those who are presumably nearest and dearest to you.

The focus on the material aspects in the wedding industry (in magazines, on blogs, Pinterest, etc) can sometimes leave brides thinking that it is ok to leave someone's S.O. off the guest list or charge guest for alcohol if it means they have more money in their budget for the "perfect" dress or "perfect" flowers. It makes me really sad.

TerriHugg · June 2013

@shaylovessly I totally agree with the defensive part! Many do get way too defensive. I hate to admit, it's been me a time or two before.

itzMS · June 2013

TerriHugg said:

I think the problem is that etiquette is seen as a rule book and not about catering to your guests. I personally used etiquette as a general rule of thumb and balanced that to catering to my particular audience. There are a lot of things with "wedding etiquette" that really go against my guests and there are others that coincide with it.

For example etiquette dictates you must send invites a few weeks before the wedding. However, my family member are from countries that require visas and needed proof of a wedding to obtain such visa so I had to send my invites sooner than etiquette dictates in order to cater to my guests. Had I not, my guests would have seen me as being a poor host and then would have talked about me behind my back as others claim. So people just have a hard time understanding what etiquette is actually about and how to adequately apply it to their wedding.

Secondly, in all honestly I kind of second @southernbelle0915 in regards to jumping on newbies. I do think that sometimes, we can get a little overzealous with "helping" brides that it comes of as attacking. I definitely think we can stand to ask them more questions before automatically assuming they just don't know what they are doing and that they're idea really is rude. (Please not that I am not attacking anyone with this comment or pointing fingers at any one person as I included myself in this critique as well. It's just a general observation.) For example, I think myself and other people included get a little too judgmental when it comes to vow renewals and automatically associate them with pretty princess days when in actuality the bride could be doing everything right. While I don't agree with pretty princess days, there is definitely a big difference between that and a vow renewal, yet some people forget to see that they are different.

So really I think entitlement is only part of the problem. The problems comes from the fact that some people don't know what etiquette is about and see it as just rules and our somewhat judgmental approach to some situations before we hear the whole story. The problem is from both sides sometimes.

@terrihugg, I totally hear you, but that's why TK is different. We don't beat around the bush. Pretty much every current reg (if they hadn't lurked first for a year plus) was destroyed in some of their first posts here, too. Some of us were even super offended. We stuck around because we wanted to learn the proper way to host guests and avoid having the MY DAY MY WAY mentality.

TerriHugg · June 2013

@itzms I totally agree with you but there really are sometimes that we assume a bride is just being entitled and that we aren't the ones being rude. There are definitely times that we respond rudely even when the advice is correct. For example, there was a bride who asked where to put her registry information in the invite. One poster said, "in the garbage" The bride got mad and said she will go to another forum and everyone just said they'll all give you the same advice and assumed she just didn't want to hear the truth. I interpreted it as she was taken aback from the rash comment of "in the garbage" when the poster could have kindly said, "it's actually considered rude to put your registry info anywhere on the invitation." So yes sometimes, I understand we don't beat around the bush, but I also think there are nicer ways for us to tell people the rules of etiquette. Again, myself included.

I've been posting here for a while and if someone said "in the garbage" to me when asking a seemingly innocent question even if it is correct, I wouldn't take too kindly to that either. Of course, some may say I'm over sensitive and maybe I am. But I think it's equally important for us to practice etiquette when giving etiquette advice. For example, call me old fashioned, but I'm not a fan of people giving etiquette advice while cursing throughout the entire post. Of course, not everyone does that and it's few and far between but it's something that makes me uncomfortable. And again, one can also argue that cursing isn't against any etiquette rules.

Regardless, I still think it goes back to brides being over entitled and defensive, and us sometimes being to rash in responses. And again, this isn't everyone and this isn't all the time time. Just something I've observed from time to time.

gmcr78 · June 2013

TerriHugg said:

@itzms I totally agree with you but there really are sometimes that we assume a bride is just being entitled and that we aren't the ones being rude. There are definitely times that we respond rudely even when the advice is correct. For example, there was a bride who asked where to put her registry information in the invite. One poster said, "in the garbage" The bride got mad and said she will go to another forum and everyone just said they'll all give you the same advice and assumed she just didn't want to hear the truth. I interpreted it as she was taken aback from the rash comment of "in the garbage" when the poster could have kindly said, "it's actually considered rude to put your registry info anywhere on the invitation." So yes sometimes, I understand we don't beat around the bush, but I also think there are nicer ways for us to tell people the rules of etiquette. Again, myself included.

I've been posting here for a while and if someone said "in the garbage" to me when asking a seemingly innocent question even if it is correct, I wouldn't take too kindly to that either. Of course, some may say I'm over sensitive and maybe I am. But I think it's equally important for us to practice etiquette when giving etiquette advice. For example, call me old fashioned, but I'm not a fan of people giving etiquette advice while cursing throughout the entire post. Of course, not everyone does that and it's few and far between but it's something that makes me uncomfortable. And again, one can also argue that cursing isn't against any etiquette rules.

Regardless, I still think it goes back to brides being over entitled and defensive, and us sometimes being to rash in responses. And again, this isn't everyone and this isn't all the time time. Just something I've observed from time to time.

I definitely see your point here. I lurked for a very long time before I ever started posting, and saw a lot of that. While the advice may be correct, sometimes the delivery is not helpful at all, and sometimes it's just rude. Most of the posters are blunt and that is fine, but once in awhile someone responds with something like what you mentioned above and it irritates me, because it's intentionally rude and not constructive.

There's nothing wrong with being direct and even blunt with replies especially when dealing with etiquette, but when it's all snark and nothing constructive, that's not helpful to anyone.

AddieCake · June 2013

Terri, that's why I have started posting with my sign that is rustic and has a cute poem. It softens the blow.

Seriously, I get what you're saying, and I don't disagree that sometimes some of us could be nicer or not just respond with a terse reply w/o explanation. I'm often considered "the nice one" here (why don't I have a badge for that, by the way?!?!), and even I am guilty of snarky replies sometimes.

However, after seeing the same questions over and over again and often talking to brick walls in our responses, no matter how eloquently phrased or carefully explained, sometimes we're just over it and just need to give the terse or snarky reply.

TerriHugg · June 2013

@AddieL73 I totally agree with you. I know I've given rude responses as well at times. That's why I included myself when I said sometimes I think WE need to a little nicer in our responses and not be so judgmental. But I totally hear you.

But sometimes, there are times that we give those uncalled snarky responses right away and that isn't really helping us or the brides. But like I said I am guilty of it as well sometimes. I'm really not trying to point fingers at anyone. But I definitely think it contributes to some girls running to other forums complaining that we are mean. Sometimes it's them just being entitled and sometimes it really is us.

AddieCake · June 2013

No, I know they are given right away. I meant we're over it from having dealt with it all day or several times that week already or whatever.

I have said this before, though. For every "mean response" that newbs get butthurt over and post some "mean girl" thread here or run to WB or WW to cry about us to, there are 10 perfectly helpful, perfectly polite posts or threads. That seldom gets recognized. Instead, it's only the snarky responses people focus on to call people out on.

southernbelle0915 · June 2013

I agree we could not jump on posters so quickly. I can see it both ways though - at the top of every board there's a thread that says "READ THIS BEFORE POSTING" and essentially tells people "lurk and see if your question has already been answered and posters beware". There's a balance to be struck for sure and it's not always perfect.

I'm not saying it's right to snap into the "Hey dumbass, why don't you quit being such an entitled brat to your guests and ditch the cash bar? Oh and don't argue with your special snowflake, "regional" bullshit because we will gang up on you and you will lose."

On the other hand....

lovefuzzies · June 2013

I was floored when during my planning process and after the wedding I was informed that I was a "snob", was "trying to keep up with the rich people" and had gotten "hoity-toity" when I provided dinner over meal time, an open bar, and other items as recommended by TK regs to provide for the comfort of my guests. I was told that I should have just offered cake and punch instead of dinner, that there was no reason to provide anything other than water to drink, that there was no reason for any pictures other than family pictures, that we should have done the dollar dance because "everyone does" and that the "big production" we put on was "ridiculously large and completely unnecessary and you should have just saved all that money". I've got to say that hurt coming from family. But in the end I'm glad I listened to the regs here and hosted properly because the people that matter really appreciated it.

AddieCake · June 2013

Wow, Fuzzies, that really sucks. I'm sorry you had to endure ugly comments b/c you threw a great party. Saying those things to you is, in my opinion, as insulting as saying someone who does just do the cake and punch reception is throwing a crappy party.

NYCBruin · June 2013

lovefuzzies said:

I was floored when during my planning process and after the wedding I was informed that I was a "snob", was "trying to keep up with the rich people" and had gotten "hoity-toity" when I provided dinner over meal time, an open bar, and other items as recommended by TK regs to provide for the comfort of my guests. I was told that I should have just offered cake and punch instead of dinner, that there was no reason to provide anything other than water to drink, that there was no reason for any pictures other than family pictures, that we should have done the dollar dance because "everyone does" and that the "big production" we put on was "ridiculously large and completely unnecessary and you should have just saved all that money". I've got to say that hurt coming from family. But in the end I'm glad I listened to the regs here and hosted properly because the people that matter really appreciated it.

I'm so sorry you had to put up with that! That is certainly very rude behavior. In my experience, when people try to put down others who "do the right thing" (in your case that would be properly hosting) it's usually because it forces the complaining party to realize that their past behavior was rude. Suddenly the "everyone else does it" excuse is invalidated. If they can justify to themselves that your properly hosted wedding was "ridiculous," "unnecessary," and "a waste of money," then they can go on pretending that they did nothing wrong at their own rude events.

LAM524 · June 2013

lovefuzzies said:

I was floored when during my planning process and after the wedding I was informed that I was a "snob", was "trying to keep up with the rich people" and had gotten "hoity-toity" when I provided dinner over meal time, an open bar, and other items as recommended by TK regs to provide for the comfort of my guests. I was told that I should have just offered cake and punch instead of dinner, that there was no reason to provide anything other than water to drink, that there was no reason for any pictures other than family pictures, that we should have done the dollar dance because "everyone does" and that the "big production" we put on was "ridiculously large and completely unnecessary and you should have just saved all that money". I've got to say that hurt coming from family. But in the end I'm glad I listened to the regs here and hosted properly because the people that matter really appreciated it.

WOW....Im sorry your efforts to be a great host were seemingly unappreciated. I have been approached this way also...by a few family members. My FI basically "lost" somethings in his divorce and someone said, "Save your money for a house. Im sure as a man he can't feel good about having nothing!' How horrible was that?! Of course I didnt waste my time in explaining he feels he has far more now that his past relationship and houses gave him!

When we were searching for a venue, 2 different venues (wedding coordinators) told me that I was "too pre-occupied thinking about our guests." I didnt choose those venues. Although we were thrown off by their statements, I certainly took it as a compliment to us! I am certainly preoccupied with making things as best I we can for our guests.

It was even suggested that we "watch" the impression we give our "church" guest because a Pastor is "suppose" to live humbly and we "can't give the wrong impression." UGH!!

gmcr78 · June 2013

People who tell you that you went over the top and shouldn't have thrown such a great party and been such a great host are showing you 2 things:

1. They are in violation of etiquette by saying such unkind things to you and trying to belittle the fabulous hosting job you just did, and

2. Clearly embarrassed that their own hosting skills are lacking and the amazing shindig they enjoyed at your expense reminded them of that and made them feel small. Which they should-anyone who belittles someone for hosting properly and making people feel welcome and have a good time IS small.

Kate61487 · June 2013

lovefuzzies I'm sorry some of your family was mean about your reception.. I think my dad got similar flak when my parents got married. Mom's side had always had a full meal, dancing, etc. Dad's side has always just done cake and punch in the church basement. They did what was traditional to my mom's side (if for no other reason than my mom's parents hosted) and I think dad's side gave him a lot of shit about being "too good" for them anymore.

Honestly, it's a big part of the reason we're not close to that side of the family. My parents have done well financially; every time he tried to pick up the check they made him feel like crap (and my one aunt said some nasty things to my mother about how she was changing my father). So we just don't really socialize with them...

Are knotties the only etiquette minded people out there??

Re: Are knotties the only etiquette minded people out there??

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