Not sure I can do this

LAM524 · July 2013

I wish I could truly convey the last few weeks that I have had involving church family. About 3 weeks ago, an older woman (70ish) approached me at church and said, "Are you guys having sex because if you are you both will bring this church down. It will crumble." I was so caught off guard. I answered her honestly (she was pleased) because I happen to really love her but my mind was spinning. I thought it was a very rude question with a ridiculous statement (although I understood where she was coming from).

About a week after that, I was asked to join her in the church kitchen. There were 4 other women sitting together at a table waiting for me. They expressed their "happiness" for us as a couple and our up coming wedding but then started asking me questions. I was "lectured" for going away with him on vacation in January. I was told the "rendezvous" was not appropriate because we are not married and the issue had been taken to the Elders. They questioned if I was married before? At what age? When did I lose my virginity? Why am I divorced? If we sought counseling? They questioned how many children I had; if they were all fathered by the same man? What my sons did? They even questioned if my sons were virgins! All in all, I sat there for about 20 minutes and then made some excuse to get the heck out of there! I was furious.

The next afternoon, my FI was over and as he checked my mail as woman (Joan) called out to him. "Is that you Steve?" She is a member of our church. She acted so shocked to see him, as if she ran into him while in another country, not in their hometown! She had told him that she sees his truck in my driveway all the time and how that has gotten her "nosey" going! They spoke for a few minutes and parted ways. The NEXT evening, during service, ANOTHER woman (Ann) prayed out loud for "purity on stage" (He directs the worship team). The head Pastor questioned her afterwards, asking why she prayed for purity. She told him "Joan" ran into "Steve" and he told her that he lived with me in my fathers home. None of it is true! My FI received a call from our head Pastor (his boss) early the next morning. My FI denied ever telling "Joan" those things because they simply arent true.

I understand my FI is "their" Pastor and its his calling/career choice but heck! Where is the line? I spoke with a wife of one of the other Pastors today and she told me that because I am with my FI, I will be under the magnifying glass. When I asked her if I was unreasonable to expect some privacy, respect etc. she said "no but this is part of being a Pastors wife." She pointed out that he is a leader and the health of the church depends on the health of the leaders. I get that and agree but a part of me feels that if I do wrong then its me who burns in hell...not anyone else.

I love him with all that I am but this is freaking me out! So my life is not really my life? I have to give answers to very private matters..about things that frankly I feel are none of any ones business? I am not afraid of living/doing "right" but boy...Im afraid of doing "wrong!" Im not afraid of God (he knows Im human) but Im afraid of the people at church! I would have never imagined that we couldnt go away on vacation or hold hands or go to an evening movie! How the hell does someone date? I just dont know how to process all of this!

Angusaur · July 2013

Do not feed into their questions. Not sure who these ladies think they are, but it's NOBODY'S place to get into your personal life, I don't care what profession your FI is in. I would simply tell them it's none of their business and walk away. I know you must want to keep some sort of civil relationship with them, but you must draw the line somewhere. I can't believe they would even think it was acceptable to bring up these subjects or ask these questions.

Simply Fated · July 2013

Wowsers. I'm sorry you're in this bad situation.

I know that in a sense it's very true, you will lose some of your privacy. My Rabbi at my old temple was transferred out after too many people complained about his *gasp* reform wife. So, yeah, while I don't agree with how these people will judge you, you might want to have a talk with your fiance about this and how you feel being under a magnifying glass.

Viczaesar · July 2013

What denomination is this church?

allispain · July 2013

My response to them, when they ask such immensely inappropriate questions, would be to say, "My relationship with Steve is between, him, myself, and God. What did you think of last week's sermon?" Or something like that. Say it often enough to enough women from the church, without ever giving in to answering their questions, and perhaps they will get the point. Plus, this way you're still being civil to them.

kmmssg · July 2013

These are the things that give Christianity a bad name - and that isn't Christianity.

I think you and your FI need to meet with the Elders and the Senior Pastor and you need to tell them exactly what questions were asked of you and by whom. ( I also think you should not have engaged with these busy bodies and their personal questions - I agree that you do need to grow a backbone and not let that happen again). You need to let them know that there are some ladies in the church who are acting in a very inappropriate (and unChristian) manner and you want to quell any rumors, and look for a way to stop this.

Yeah, as a Pastor's wife you will fall under heavier scrutiny, but this is totally unacceptable. I hope you will post an update after you go to the church leadership.

CLoGreenEyes · July 2013

Another vote for the tell-them-to-back-off club. That is so incredibly inappropriate and not at all what having a church family is about. They are there to encourage, edify, and build you up, not question your choices and make you doubt yourself.

I'm sorry people are being so rude - but you don't have to let them! Shut them down, gently and firmly.

stantokm · July 2013

They probably feel like they can ask you because no one has ever called them out on their impropriety. Don't give them that kind of power over you. I like @allispain's response that your relationship is between you, Steve, and God, but I would also try to turn it back on them. "We're doing everything we can to live a Christ-centered life so that we can have a Christ-centered marriage. These questions make me feel like you don't respect me or Steve as a pastor and don't trust us to do what God wants." If they persist, refuse to answer their questions.

Maybe you can be a force of change if you and Steve stick with this church, but it looks like it will be a hard road. These harpies have gone unchecked for quite some time and they won't like giving up their power.

artbyallie · July 2013

Perhaps your fiancé could preach a sermon on the evils of gossip?

AddieCake · July 2013

WTF

hordol · July 2013

I was going to say find a new church, but at the end of your post it seems as if you FI is actually the pastor of this church. If that's the case, I understand it's more difficult to leave but the disrespect these people have displayed to you would be motivation enough for me to get the heck out. A church should be an environment where people love, support, and encourage each other--yes, it also should be about holding each other accountable, but the people that should be holding you accountable should be the people that you are close enough to that they don't even need to ask you those questions because they already know the answers.

This church reeks of being judgmental, gossipy, and self-righteous. I would honestly find a new church that bases itself in love.

Jen4948 · July 2013

Yeah, they were really inappropriate and I think you had every right to say so: "Just as your relationships are private, so are mine and FI's. Do not ask me or comment to me about it again."

Does your church or denomination have a board of elders or anything like that? If so, I think it could be helpful for your FI to speak to them and ask their advice for when a congregation's members get so nosy that it becomes harassment, because that's what's going on here.

[Deleted User] · July 2013

allispain said:

My response to them, when they ask such immensely inappropriate questions, would be to say, "My relationship with Steve is between, him, myself, and God. What did you think of last week's sermon?" Or something like that. Say it often enough to enough women from the church, without ever giving in to answering their questions, and perhaps they will get the point. Plus, this way you're still being civil to them.

I think this is a beautiful way to deal with the situation

QueerFemme · July 2013

Honestly, I don't even know why you engaged with these women. I get that he is the pastor, but that doesn't give them a license to invade your sexual privacy. I'm not sure why you didn't just respond with a pearl clutching "I really feel like this conversation is inappropriate!" and walk away.

amakayeb · July 2013

My fiance is finishing up his internship to become a pastor. I am not a member at the church he was at this year, so I don't know anyone very closely. I can say that I feel "under the magnifying glass" at times, but not at all in the same way you are describing. I can't imagine ANYONE from his or my church asking questions like that; I really don't believe that is something you should have to deal with as part of being a pastor's wife. I really like stantokm's advice, along with the advice to talk to church leadership. I don't have anything else to add, but I wanted to let you know that this seems to go far beyond the scrutiny you should be expecting.

Ajuliana · July 2013

@queerfemme any excuse for pearl clutching is a good excuse!

Jen4948 · July 2013

I think just leaving isn't enough, because that opens the door for these "ladies" to harass the wife/partner and family members of the next pastor hired to minister to this congregation. If they'll go after his fiancee, I can't see that they'll stop there but also pry into, say, his teenage kids' personal lives as well. That's why I suggested above that the OP and her FI should complain to the church's leaders and ask them to take action to make clear to the congregation that this "putting pastor's family under microscope" behavior is unacceptable.

Jen4948 · July 2013

Stage, I never at any time suggested that LAM and her FI shouldn't leave, so I don't know where you're getting that bullshit from; I just think that whatever else they decide to do they should bring it up to the church leadership.

For the women that LAM "loves," she should say to them directly, "My relationship with FI is none of your business. We are not okay with your 'putting us under the microscope' and asking us questions that you would not ask anyone else or allow anyone else to ask you. This is a closed subject." Nobody else deserves the dignity of a response.

But even they might not get the lesson unless the church leaders drum it into their heads along with the other women that this kind of treatment of anyone else is not okay. Maybe the leadership stepping in is all it will take to shut them up; maybe there need to be other consequences, like possibly being expelled from the church. And maybe the leaders won't do anything at all. But if this is going on because the leadership doesn't know about it, but they would definitely step in if they did, then they need to have their eyes opened.

MayDay513 · July 2013

Honestly, if it was brought up to the church elders then they should have handled it and you dont need to be talking to these gossips about anything.

Jen4948 · July 2013

StageManager14 said:

Jen4948 said:

Stage, I never at any time suggested that LAM and her FI shouldn't leave, so I don't know where you're getting that bullshit from; I just think that whatever else they decide to do they should bring it up to the church leadership.

For the women that LAM "loves," she should say to them directly, "My relationship with FI is none of your business. We are not okay with your "putting us under the microscope and asking us questions that you would not ask anyone else or allow anyone else to ask you. This is a closed subject." Nobody else deserves the dignity of a response.

But even they might not get the lesson unless the church leaders drum it into their heads along with the other women that this kind of treatment of anyone else is not okay. Maybe the leadership stepping in is all it will take to shut them up; maybe there need to be other consequences, like possibly being expelled from the church. And maybe the leaders won't do anything at all. But if this is going on because the leadership doesn't know about it, but they would definitely step in if they did, then they need to have their eyes opened.

My apologies, I took your previous post to mean that you didn't think they should leave, but instead should duke it out with the leadership. Apparently I misunderstood.

Though I still disagree that they are under some sort of moral obligation to "open the eyes" of these women if they do decide to leave. That just sounds like extra pain that could also make it harder for her FI to get a job elsewhere. It wouldn't be worth it to me to lodge formal complaints and whatnot unless I was fighting to stay (which is a valid option as well). That was the part that I thought was bullshit.

They may not be under a moral obligation, but what if pastor after pastor refuses to stay because these women decide to "haze" their spouses/partners this way by trying to engage them in inappropriate conversations? They'll have a major problem filling the pulpit regardless of what the OP's FI and she do. So I think that the problem should at least be brought to their attention-it's their church that will suffer in the long run. Doing nothing at all gives these women "permission" to keep doing it and get away with it. So I find doing nothing to be "bullshit."

Jen4948 · July 2013

StageManager14 said:

StageManager14 said:

Jen4948 said:

Stage, I never at any time suggested that LAM and her FI shouldn't leave, so I don't know where you're getting that bullshit from; I just think that whatever else they decide to do they should bring it up to the church leadership.

For the women that LAM "loves," she should say to them directly, "My relationship with FI is none of your business. We are not okay with your "putting us under the microscope and asking us questions that you would not ask anyone else or allow anyone else to ask you. This is a closed subject." Nobody else deserves the dignity of a response.

But even they might not get the lesson unless the church leaders drum it into their heads along with the other women that this kind of treatment of anyone else is not okay. Maybe the leadership stepping in is all it will take to shut them up; maybe there need to be other consequences, like possibly being expelled from the church. And maybe the leaders won't do anything at all. But if this is going on because the leadership doesn't know about it, but they would definitely step in if they did, then they need to have their eyes opened.

My apologies, I took your previous post to mean that you didn't think they should leave, but instead should duke it out with the leadership. Apparently I misunderstood.

Though I still disagree that they are under some sort of moral obligation to "open the eyes" of these women if they do decide to leave. That just sounds like extra pain that could also make it harder for her FI to get a job elsewhere. It wouldn't be worth it to me to lodge formal complaints and whatnot unless I was fighting to stay (which is a valid option as well). That was the part that I thought was bullshit.

They may not be under a moral obligation, but what if pastor after pastor refuses to stay because these women decide to "haze" their spouses/partners this way by trying to engage them in inappropriate conversations? They'll have a major problem filling the pulpit regardless of what the OP's FI and she do. So I think that the problem should at least be brought to their attention-it's their church that will suffer in the long run. Doing nothing at all gives these women "permission" to keep doing it and get away with it. So I find doing nothing to be "bullshit."
That is the church's problem, not LAM and FI's.

I still think LAM and her FI should tell the church why they want to leave and not just walk out without doing so. Sorry, but I'm not changing my opinion because you think it's "bullshit."

Jen4948 · July 2013

StageManager14 said:

Good news, Jen! I never asked you to change your opinion. I merely stated a dissenting one. I would not risk future jobs in order to " help" a company that is so bad I have to leave it .

That's your choice. It might not be "risking jobs," and even if it is, that means that this one as a pastor in general isn't worth having, not just at this church. Churches should practice what they expect their pastors to preach by protecting them and their families from inappropriate treatment by their congregants.

Edited to add: Keeping silent about really inappropriate treatment because it's "risking one's job" to report it is why rapes in the military and other really bad treatment of others don't get reported, and it's giving it "permission" to continue. I find this argument really unpersuasive and unimpressive.

Jen4948 · July 2013

What I did was state that keeping silent about any bad behavior is not a good idea, because by doing nothing, it "grants permission" to let it keep on happening. That applies to all bad behavior. It makes the victim feel violated, whether it's asking nosy questions to violating personal space to the very worst-it snowballs because nobody official is telling the perpetrator to stop and not having any official "record" of it because it goes unreported makes it that much harder for officials to do anything about.

It. All. Needs. To. Stop.

Stage, stop baiting me already.

NYCBruin · July 2013

I'm 100% with Stage on this one. It's not your job to "help" a company/church do a better job creating a pleasant work environment for your replacement.

Sure, it may not risk future job prospects, but there's a good chance it might. People tend to call up your previous employers before hiring you, so it's best not to leave on bad terms. Not worth the risk in my book.

Comparing this to cases of rape is insane. These people aren't doing anything illegal/harmful, they're just a bunch of nosy gossips who don't understand boundries.

Also, OPs post suggest that the people she would "report" this to are part of the problem, so I'm not sure what you think reporting it would even do.

NYCBruin · July 2013

StageManager14 said:

NYCBruin said:

I'm 100% with Stage on this one. It's not your job to "help" a company/church do a better job creating a pleasant work environment for your replacement.

Sure, it may not risk future job prospects, but there's a good chance it might. People tend to call up your previous employers before hiring you, so it's best not to leave on bad terms. Not worth the risk in my book.

Comparing this to cases of rape is insane. These people aren't doing anything illegal/harmful, they're just a bunch of nosy gossips who don't understand boundries.

Also, OPs post suggest that the people she would "report" this to are part of the problem, so I'm not sure what you think reporting it would even do.

Thank you. For a moment there I thought I was going nuts.

No problem. If you're going nuts, then I must be taking the same crazy pills.

Jen4948 · July 2013

NYCBruin said:

I'm 100% with Stage on this one. It's not your job to "help" a company/church do a better job creating a pleasant work environment for your replacement.

Sure, it may not risk future job prospects, but there's a good chance it might. People tend to call up your previous employers before hiring you, so it's best not to leave on bad terms. Not worth the risk in my book.

Comparing this to cases of rape is insane. These people aren't doing anything illegal/harmful, they're just a bunch of nosy gossips who don't understand boundries.

Also, OPs post suggest that the people she would "report" this to are part of the problem, so I'm not sure what you think reporting it would even do.

Depends on the church hierarchy. If it's one church and not part of a larger regional group or something, then I agree that it makes more sense just to go. But if this particular church is part of a bigger denomination, then it might well make sense to explain to them why her FI needs to find another pulpit. Maybe they need to dissociate this particular congregation from the denomination or something. But they can't take action if they don't know what's going on.

arrippa · July 2013

Jen4948 said:

NYCBruin said:

I'm 100% with Stage on this one. It's not your job to "help" a company/church do a better job creating a pleasant work environment for your replacement.

Sure, it may not risk future job prospects, but there's a good chance it might. People tend to call up your previous employers before hiring you, so it's best not to leave on bad terms. Not worth the risk in my book.

Comparing this to cases of rape is insane. These people aren't doing anything illegal/harmful, they're just a bunch of nosy gossips who don't understand boundries.

Also, OPs post suggest that the people she would "report" this to are part of the problem, so I'm not sure what you think reporting it would even do.
Depends on the church hierarchy. If it's one church and not part of a larger regional group or something, then I agree that it makes more sense just to go. But if this particular church is part of a bigger denomination, then it might well make sense to explain to them why her FI needs to find another pulpit. Maybe they need to dissociate this particular congregation from the denomination or something. But they can't take action if they don't know what's going on.

To be honest, there are nosy people in every church (I say this as someone who goes to church weekly). I've learned the art of deflection and bean dipping.

Jen4948 · July 2013

moemacWed30594 said:

Jen4948 said:

NYCBruin said:

I'm 100% with Stage on this one. It's not your job to "help" a company/church do a better job creating a pleasant work environment for your replacement.

Sure, it may not risk future job prospects, but there's a good chance it might. People tend to call up your previous employers before hiring you, so it's best not to leave on bad terms. Not worth the risk in my book.

Comparing this to cases of rape is insane. These people aren't doing anything illegal/harmful, they're just a bunch of nosy gossips who don't understand boundries.

Also, OPs post suggest that the people she would "report" this to are part of the problem, so I'm not sure what you think reporting it would even do.
Depends on the church hierarchy. If it's one church and not part of a larger regional group or something, then I agree that it makes more sense just to go. But if this particular church is part of a bigger denomination, then it might well make sense to explain to them why her FI needs to find another pulpit. Maybe they need to dissociate this particular congregation from the denomination or something. But they can't take action if they don't know what's going on.
To be honest, there are nosy people in every church (I say this as someone who goes to church weekly). I've learned the art of deflection and bean dipping.

Sounds like that only works when the persons who are being bean dipped and deflected get the point. Sometimes they need to be told more bluntly to back off.

arrippa · July 2013

Jen4948 said:

Sounds like that only works when the persons who are being bean dipped and deflected get the point. Sometimes they need to be told more bluntly to back off.

Was that taken from How to Win Friends and Influence People? Truthfully, you can tell them to back off until you are blue in the face. Some people just don't get it. If she is no longer comfortable at her church, then she should find a new one.

Jen4948 · July 2013

moemacWed30594 said:

Jen4948 said:

Sounds like that only works when the persons who are being bean dipped and deflected get the point. Sometimes they need to be told more bluntly to back off.
Was that taken from How to Win Friends and Influence People? Truthfully, you can tell them to back off until you are blue in the face. Some people just don't get it. If she is no longer comfortable at her church, then she should find a new one.

No, but bean dipping doesn't always work either. You're baiting too.

Jen4948 · July 2013

StageManager14 said:

@Jen4948, I don't know what your new obsession with "baiting" is, but so far all I've seen are responses to your post. I get that you learned a nifty new buzzword and all, but you do realize that you have the power to IGNORE a post if you don't like it, right? Not everything that criticizes your posts is "baiting". Sometimes, people just think you're really really wrong.

Which is what I think you are most of the time, because you only respond to me when you think I'm really really wrong. I find your opinions to be "bullshit" as often as you find mine. If you want me to ignore you, consider doing the same and ignoring me.

Not sure I can do this

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