How the heck?!

kahaywa · October 2013

I have several invitations to address to couples who are married, but have different last names. For example my aunt (mother's sister) who would be the main addressee, hyphenated her last name. Do I still address it to Mr. and Mrs. Husband's name? Or do I address it to Mrs. Hyphenated name and family then put him on the inner envelope? Or, do I put BOTH (Mr. husband's name and Mrs. Hyphenated name)?

Maggie0829 · October 2013

Mrs. Sue Hyphenated Last Name and Mr. Joe Last name

Then on the inner envelope you can just put their first names.

Also, don't put "and Family" on your invites. You are just asking for some guests to read it wrong and think they can bring their 30 cousins with them since they are all family.

HisGirlFriday13 · October 2013

Maggie0829 said:

Mrs. Sue Hyphenated Last Name and Mr. Joe Last name

Then on the inner envelope you can just put their first names.

Also, don't put "and Family" on your invites. You are just asking for some guests to read it wrong and think they can bring their 30 cousins with them since they are all family.

This. Any bride who writes "and family" on her invitation deserves to have the recipients invite their own parents, siblings, cousins, grandparents and dog-sitter, because "they're family."

phira · October 2013

As a bride who will not be changing her last name, I just want to emphasize that you absolutely should NOT do Mr. and Mrs. Hisname.

NYCMercedes · October 2013

TK has it: Mr. James Someone and Mrs. Suzanne Something-Someone. I have seen it on other sites as Mr. James Someone and Ms. Suzanne Something-Someone. Personally, I think two things. Firstly, find out if she uses Mrs. or Ms. I don't like Mrs. with a woman's first name as that is saying to me that she's divorced, so a Ms. is indicated to me. Secondly, I think the woman should always be first. Btw, spell out the uncapitalized and.

kbhaupt · October 2013

Does "Mrs. Full Name" really indicate she is divorced? I always thought that when Ms. Anne Johnson marries Ned Brady she becomes Mrs. Anne Brady. If she divorces him, she becomes Ms. Anne Brady (or even Ms. Anne Johnson). ?

AroundTheBlock · October 2013

The number one all-time rule for addressing correspondence is: Address people as they prefer to be addressed. All other rules-of-thumb have so many conflicting versions and interpretations, and the understandings and misunderstandings of those rules are so widespread, that applying rules of etiquette for names and titles, whether they be the rules promulgated on messageboards or the rules from standard etiquette, you are certain to offend someone. And it varies from country to country. Especially in the United States right now, the rules of standard etiquette are changing rapidly on this subject, since that country's first lady styles herself as "Mrs. Michelle Obama" when she entertains independently of the President.

That being said, the current state of standard etiquette is:

- if one member of the couple is a public servant (including medical doctors in that category), their name goes first; otherwise
- for formal correspondence a gentleman's name precedes the lady's name; for informal correspondence the lady's name precedes the gentleman's
- for formal social correspondence use titles together with surnames but without given names unless needed for disambiguation; for informal social correspondence use first names only with no title
- for business correspondence (including outer envelopes) use titles, given names and surnames.
- In the United States address the outer envelope to the two adult heads of house. In the rest of the English-speaking world address the outer envelope to the lady head of house.
- If the couple's surnames are different, use each person's title together with his or her own name, and keep each person's name intact.
- use "Ms" for ladies whose title preference you do not know, regardless of her marital status

A hyphenated name is still a name, and different from an unhyphenated name. So in the U.S. use "Mr. George Name and Ms. Suzette Double-Name" on the outer envelope, and "Mr. Name and Ms. Double-Name" on the inner envelope. Include the periods after the titles, which are also a U.S. thing. In Canada, New Zealand, the UK, Australia and so on, use "Ms Suzette Double-Name" on the outer envelope and "Mr Name and Ms Double-Name" on the inner envelope or invitation write-in line.

You should maintain a consistent formality. If your party is an informal one you should be using informal terms of address on the invitation ("Suzette and George") but you should also be using informal invitations -- which do not have double envelopes or use the stilted third-person formal invitation wording. If your party is a formal one, then retain the titles even on your inner envelope.

banana468 · October 2013

kahaywa said:

I have several invitations to address to couples who are married, but have different last names. For example my aunt (mother's sister) who would be the main addressee, hyphenated her last name. Do I still address it to Mr. and Mrs. Husband's name? Or do I address it to Mrs. Hyphenated name and family then put him on the inner envelope? Or, do I put BOTH (Mr. husband's name and Mrs. Hyphenated name)?

A lot of the above is incorrect. Find out of the woman wants to be Mrs. I know ZERO women who kept their maiden name and who prefer to be Mrs.

For those who have hyphenated, it would be:

Outer Envelope

Mrs. (or Ms.) Jane Smith-Jones and Mr. John Jones

Inner Envelope

Mrs. Smith-Jones and Mr. Jones

Evan, Patrick and Stephanie (minor children named oldest to youngest)

If you don't have an inner envelope then the minor children are named on the outer envelope as stated above. Children over 18 get their own invitations.

If the woman just kept her last name then it's most likely:

Ms. Jane Smith and Mr. John Jones

Do not use "and family". Not only is it ambiguous as it opens the door for wide interpretation, but it's also rude. Your guests have names and they should be used.

banana468 · October 2013

kbhaupt said:

Does "Mrs. Full Name" really indicate she is divorced? I always thought that when Ms. Anne Johnson marries Ned Brady she becomes Mrs. Anne Brady. If she divorces him, she becomes Ms. Anne Brady (or even Ms. Anne Johnson). ?

Technically a married woman is Mrs. John Smith so if she's Mrs. or Ms. Jane Smith she's divorced.

BUT, I know many married women who prefer to be Mrs. Jane Smith when she's addressed on formal correspondence that doesn't include her husband (such as a bridal shower invitation) and many women want to drop the Mrs. and become Ms. when they divorce.

Basically - you need to ask.

JustNicki · October 2013

AroundTheBlock said:
The number one all-time rule for addressing correspondence is: Address people as they prefer to be addressed. All other rules-of-thumb have so many conflicting versions and interpretations, and the understandings and misunderstandings of those rules are so widespread, that applying rules of etiquette for names and titles, whether they be the rules promulgated on messageboards or the rules from standard etiquette, you are certain to offend someone. And it varies from country to country. Especially in the United States right now, the rules of standard etiquette are changing rapidly on this subject, since that country's first lady styles herself as "Mrs. Michelle Obama" when she entertains independently of the President.

That being said, the current state of standard etiquette is:

- if one member of the couple is a public servant (including medical doctors in that category), their name goes first; otherwise
- for formal correspondence a gentleman's name precedes the lady's name; for informal correspondence the lady's name precedes the gentleman's
- for formal social correspondence use titles together with surnames but without given names unless needed for disambiguation; for informal social correspondence use first names only with no title
- for business correspondence (including outer envelopes) use titles, given names and surnames.
- In the United States address the outer envelope to the two adult heads of house. In the rest of the English-speaking world address the outer envelope to the lady head of house.
- If the couple's surnames are different, use each person's title together with his or her own name, and keep each person's name intact.
- use "Ms" for ladies whose title preference you do not know, regardless of her marital status

A hyphenated name is still a name, and different from an unhyphenated name. So in the U.S. use "Mr. George Name and Ms. Suzette Double-Name" on the outer envelope, and "Mr. Name and Ms. Double-Name" on the inner envelope. Include the periods after the titles, which are also a U.S. thing. In Canada, New Zealand, the UK, Australia and so on, use "Ms Suzette Double-Name" on the outer envelope and "Mr Name and Ms Double-Name" on the inner envelope or invitation write-in line.

You should maintain a consistent formality. If your party is an informal one you should be using informal terms of address on the invitation ("Suzette and George") but you should also be using informal invitations -- which do not have double envelopes or use the stilted third-person formal invitation wording. If your party is a formal one, then retain the titles even on your inner envelope.

What about listing the names alphabetically? I've read in some places that's the correct way. Like Ms. Jane Jones and Mr. John Smith or Mr. John Doe and Ms. Jane Jones? Which method is more traditionally correct?

AroundTheBlock · October 2013

JustNicki said: What about listing the names alphabetically? I've read in some places that's the correct way. Like Ms. Jane Jones and Mr. John Smith or Mr. John Doe and Ms. Jane Jones? Which method is more traditionally correct?

Listing the gentleman first is more traditionally correct. It is also sexist: it implies that the lady needs the gentleman's "protection" -- he "takes point" by going before her in public and formal situations. Listing the names alphabetically is less traditionally correct but more politically correct: it doesn't imply anything about who protects whom. It also works better for same-sex couples, obviously.

JustNicki · October 2013

Thanks, @AroundTheBlock. Hopefully the women whose names come second based on the alphabetical method don't get insulted lol. Maybe the woman's name should come first!

NYCMercedes · October 2013

Does "Mrs. Full Name" really indicate she is divorced? I always thought that when Ms. Anne Johnson marries Ned Brady she becomes Mrs. Anne Brady. If she divorces him, she becomes Ms. Anne Brady (or even Ms. Anne Johnson). ?

Nope. Mrs. Anne Brady is divorced. Mrs. Thomas Brady is married. Mrs. Anne Brady could go by Ms. Anne Brady if she chooses. One becomes a Ms. by choice.

NYCMercedes · October 2013

@banana I think you would be hard pressed to find a married woman who would want to be addressed Mrs. Jane Smith. They might choose Jane Smith or Ms. Jane Smith, and of course, Mrs Thomas Smith.

NYCMercedes · October 2013

@justnicki Alphabetical is almost always the last choice. This is because the "sorter" hasn't bothered to find the correct way, i.e., gender, age, professional level, military ranking, and so on.

SP29 · October 2013

@NYCMercedes- hard pressed?? I know many women who want to be addressed by THEIR name "Mrs. Jane Smith" when married. My mother in particular. If she ever got mail addressed to "Mrs. R SP29'slastname" she would not open it, as her name isn't "R".

I would not assume that Mrs. Thomas Smith is divorced.

I get that Mrs. Thomas Smith is traditional, and etiquette, but in modern day I think variations in address of name are much more common. Though I would not be offended to be addressed as Mrs. HisName HisLastName, I would introduce myself as Mrs. SP29 HisLastName, because my name is SP29, not HisName. Probably because of how I was raised by my mom's view, but that's still how I would do it.

AroundTheBlock · October 2013

Traditionally, Miss Anne Black became Mrs Thomas White when she married. If she had a profession she might continue to go by Miss Anne Black for business purposes while being Mrs Thomas Black socially, and remained Mrs Thomas Black even if she was widowed. If she became divorced, she replaced Thomas' first name with her own former surname, and became Mrs Black White. Mrs Anne Black was considered to be an improper usage under any circumstances: single, married, divorced or widowed.

Prior to the eighteenth century, Mrs Anne Black could be used for any lady, regardless of marital status, and was pronounced "Mistress".

NYCMercedes · October 2013

Hi, @sp29. You wrote "I would not assume that Mrs. Thomas Smith is divorced." Right, you should assume that Mrs. Thomas Smith is not divorced. I would never introduce myself as Mrs. Mercedes Smith. Instead, I would introduce myself as Mercedes Smith or as Mrs. Smith,or as Ms. Smith or as Mrs. Thomas Smith.

SP29 said:

@NYCMercedes- hard pressed?? I know many women who want to be addressed by THEIR name "Mrs. Jane Smith" when married. My mother in particular. If she ever got mail addressed to "Mrs. R SP29'slastname" she would not open it, as her name isn't "R".

I would not assume that Mrs. Thomas Smith is divorced.

I get that Mrs. Thomas Smith is traditional, and etiquette, but in modern day I think variations in address of name are much more common. Though I would not be offended to be addressed as Mrs. HisName HisLastName, I would introduce myself as Mrs. SP29 HisLastName, because my name is SP29, not HisName. Probably because of how I was raised by my mom's view, but that's still how I would do it.

eta, my name is Mercedes.

SP29 · October 2013

@NYCMercedes- Sorry, I said that incorrectly. I would not assume that Mrs. Jane Smith is divorced.

I understand the traditional way of address, but I agree with a PP who said to clarify how one (man or woman) prefers to be addressed. There are many variations in name of address now and I don't think you'd be hard pressed to find married women who refer to themselves as Mrs. Jane Smith. Look at any legal or intake form, it will often have written (to some effect): (circle) Mr/Mrs/Ms (First name) __________ (Last Name) _______________. One wouldn't write Mrs. Thomas Smith in this case.

simplykayla · October 2013

SP29 said:

@NYCMercedes- Sorry, I said that incorrectly. I would not assume that Mrs. Jane Smith is divorced.

I understand the traditional way of address, but I agree with a PP who said to clarify how one (man or woman) prefers to be addressed. There are many variations in name of address now and I don't think you'd be hard pressed to find married women who refer to themselves as Mrs. Jane Smith. Look at any legal or intake form, it will often have written (to some effect): (circle) Mr/Mrs/Ms (First name) __________ (Last Name) _______________. One wouldn't write Mrs. Thomas Smith in this case.

I agree with @SP29 here. I know a lot of married women who took their husband's last name, but would never want to be called Mrs. Thomas Smith, and would prefer being referred to as Mrs. Anne Smith.
That may be the traditional way of doing it, but it's the kind of tradition that not everyone prefers anymore.

Your best bet is really to find out how each woman personally wishes to be addressed. Different women will prefer it different ways, and you don't want to risk offending anyone by addressing them in any way other than what they prefer.

kmmssg · October 2013

I am one of those married women who does NOT want to be Mrs. John Smith. Mrs Jane Smith is my preference. My first name is NOT John, and as a 53 yo woman, I think traditional etiquette needs to rethink this. Women are independent, bread-winners, workers, educated and should be recognized by their own names when they are being solely addressed in correspondence. "Mrs. John Smith" comes from a time generations ago when women were at home, being protected, etc.

If we receive a wedding invitation or other correspondence addressed to Mr. and Mrs. John Smith, I have no problem with that at all. If you mail me something, solely to me, as Mrs. John Smith, I am going to be pissed.

Maggie0829 · October 2013

I am one of those married women who does NOT want to be Mrs. John Smith. Mrs Jane Smith is my preference. My first name is NOT John, and as a 53 yo woman, I think traditional etiquette needs to rethink this. Women are independent, bread-winners, workers, educated and should be recognized by their own names when they are being solely addressed in correspondence. "Mrs. John Smith" comes from a time generations ago when women were at home, being protected, etc.

If we receive a wedding invitation or other correspondence addressed to Mr. and Mrs. John Smith, I have no problem with that at all. If you mail me something, solely to me, as Mrs. John Smith, I am going to be pissed.

I agree with this. I would laugh hysterically if I got a letter addressed to Mrs. Shawn HisLastName. I would think that the person sending it to me was an idiot. My name is not Shawn it is Maggie so use it.

This is one etiquette rule that needs to be thrown away.

NYCMercedes · October 2013

Don't we always try to give correct advice on the E board? What I've written is correct and I stand behind it. I wrote that "Firstly find out if she uses Mrs. or Ms." Poster was asking about a hyphenated name. Ask the receiver. Not that hard. If I were to receive mail addressed to Mrs. Mercedes Smith, I wouldn't go so far as to think that person were an idiot, but I'd think they just didn't know better. Here, on the E board, we can let the sender know there is a proper way.

Maggie0829 · October 2013

NYCMercedes said:

Don't we always try to give correct advice on the E board? What I've written is correct and I stand behind it. I wrote that "Firstly find out if she uses Mrs. or Ms." Poster was asking about a hyphenated name. Ask the receiver. Not that hard. If I were to receive mail addressed to Mrs. Mercedes Smith, I wouldn't go so far as to think that person were an idiot, but I'd think they just didn't know better. Here, on the E board, we can let the sender know there is a proper way.

Yes, we do give proper etiquette advice but I don't think there is anything wrong with voicing our opinions on certain pieces of etiquette.

Etiquette says that labels are a no-no. When this comes up I typically say, you should hand write addresses but using labels isn't the end of the world or the worse thing you can do.

Yes, correct etiquette says that a married woman should be addressed as Mrs. Joe Smith, but in my opinion that is ridiculous and very antiquated as far as most etiquette advice goes. I know no woman who wants to be addressed as Mrs. Joe Smith. Everyone I know would be highly offended by this and say that they have their own name and that it should be used.

PrettyGirlLost · October 2013

phira said:

As a bride who will not be changing her last name, I just want to emphasize that you absolutely should NOT do Mr. and Mrs. Hisname.

So do you write Mr. Phira'sDH LastName and Ms. Phira HerLastname, then? Since technically you are not Mrs. DHLastname?

I'm curious because I'm not taking my FI last name either, and my SIL did not take FI's family name either, so I want to be sure to address her invitation correctly.

Maggie0829 · October 2013

PrettyGirlLost said:

phira said:

As a bride who will not be changing her last name, I just want to emphasize that you absolutely should NOT do Mr. and Mrs. Hisname.

So do you write Mr. Phira'sDH LastName and Ms. Phira HerLastname, then? Since technically you are not Mrs. DHLastname?

I'm curious because I'm not taking my FI last name either, and my SIL did not take FI's family name either, so I want to be sure to address her invitation correctly.

Actually the woman's name should go first. But yes, the way you have them written out is correct.

ashleyep · October 2013

PrettyGirlLost said:

phira said:

As a bride who will not be changing her last name, I just want to emphasize that you absolutely should NOT do Mr. and Mrs. Hisname.

So do you write Mr. Phira'sDH LastName and Ms. Phira HerLastname, then? Since technically you are not Mrs. DHLastname?

I'm curious because I'm not taking my FI last name either, and my SIL did not take FI's family name either, so I want to be sure to address her invitation correctly.

Yep. I have a friend who got married and you put both of their full names on it. Ms. Her Name and Mr. His Name.

daria24 · October 2013

PrettyGirlLost said:

phira said:

As a bride who will not be changing her last name, I just want to emphasize that you absolutely should NOT do Mr. and Mrs. Hisname.

So do you write Mr. Phira'sDH LastName and Ms. Phira HerLastname, then? Since technically you are not Mrs. DHLastname?

I'm curious because I'm not taking my FI last name either, and my SIL did not take FI's family name either, so I want to be sure to address her invitation correctly.

I didn't change my last name, I do Ms. Jane Smith and Mr. John Jones, on the same line. I had always heard ladies first, this thread is the first time I heard that a man's name goes first.

My grandmother is the only person I know who prefers to be called Mrs. John Jones in formal correspondence. I addressed her invitation (She has been widowed 20+ years) to Mrs. Jane Jones and she wrote back on her reply card Mrs. John Jones. For a birthday card or something like that, she is Mrs. Jane Jones.

PrettyGirlLost · October 2013

Maggie0829 said:

Actually the woman's name should go first. But yes, the way you have them written out is correct.

ashleyep said:

Yep. I have a friend who got married and you put both of their full names on it. Ms. Her Name and Mr. His Name.

Why would her name go 1st? I'm confused!

Traditionally the man's name comes first on formal invites, right? Is the "exception" when his wife has not taken his last name?

Maggie0829 · October 2013

PrettyGirlLost said:

Maggie0829 said:

Actually the woman's name should go first. But yes, the way you have them written out is correct.

ashleyep said:

Yep. I have a friend who got married and you put both of their full names on it. Ms. Her Name and Mr. His Name.

Why would her name go 1st? I'm confused!

Traditionally the man's name comes first on formal invites, right? Is the "exception" when his wife has not taken his last name?

I have always gone by the woman goes first. Unless of course the woman took her husbands name and then it would be Mr. and Mrs. Joe Smith. But according to Emily Post the names can be interchanged and both are correct.

http://www.emilypost.com/forms-of-address/titles/96-guide-to-addressing-correspondence

PrettyGirlLost · October 2013

THANK YOU ALL!!!!!

And everyone was so nice, I give you all a puppy:

http://image.blingee.com/images18/content/output/000/000/000/77a/756219306_2013445.gif

How the heck?!

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