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Engagment party

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Re: Engagment party

  • MobKazMobKaz member
    First Anniversary First Comment First Answer 5 Love Its
    cidefi said:
    Uuummmm I am the throw my birthday party person ever!!! Been doing it ever year since I was 21. My sister was 4 years younger then me and couldnt throw me a party. And now she dead and still can't throw me a party. So imma do it myself. Yes my day of birth is about me. Its all about the day I emerged into this world...ME ME ME!!! And my 
    wedding day is the same except that includes the husband and kids.
    ..US US US. I be damn if imma sit around waiting for my friends to host something for me. If they do...GREAT!! But I ain't holdin'my breath for it.

    image
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  • AddieCakeAddieCake member
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    NYCBruin said:
     
    You have a very odd understanding of the word humble if you think throwing a party in your honor exemplifies that. 

    So much this.

    What did you think would happen if you walked up to a group of internet strangers and told them to get shoehorned by their lady doc?~StageManager14
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  • TiaTeaTiaTea member
    First Comment 5 Love Its Name Dropper
    As for the birthdays, some of the negativity towards celebrating one's own birthday seems to be coming from people, who either never left their own backyard, or have no diversity in their families and friends.

    Inviting people at home , or at a restaurant for your own birthday is very common, if you have European ancestry. Whoever has the birthday , he'll organize everything and provide everithing.
    by the way it is for every happy event. If something good happens to you, you organize a party, invite people and treat them with food , drinks,  entertainment . 


    Naturally, people who have parents , grandparents, or friends from European descent know all about it.

    Some examples:

    Germany
    Having a birthday celebration in Germany means you have to organize and pay for it yourself,
    http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art178690.asp

    At work, the birthday person buys cake or dessert for all colleagues. At night, the birthday person invites friends and family to a party or dinner. Everything is paid for by the birthday person. So, some people do not tell colleagues when their birthday is because it can be pretty costly.
    http://broadyesl.wordpress.com/2012/07/15/german-birthday-traditions/

    Russia
     The birthday celebration is usually a lavish dinner with many dishes. It is a custom for the birthday person to provide the feast, and this includes paying for dinner if the celebration takes place in a restaurant. The celebration can sometimes go on for more than one day.
    http://broadyesl.wordpress.com/2012/07/15/birthday-traditions-from-russia/

    Spain
    Most people celebrate their birthday with a few drinks and maybe tapas. But before you invite the whole office out for drinks, one thing you should know is that in Spain the birthday boy or girl pays
    http://lifeinalcala.wordpress.com/tag/traditional-spanish-birthday-parties/

    By the way, we all know what MissManners had to say about celebrating yourself, inviting people to bring you presents , or to pay for your dinner.
    The above examples, on the other hand, have nothing to do with it. Unless of course someone decides to twist the meaning of it. 

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  • cideficidefi member
    5 Love Its First Comment Name Dropper First Anniversary
    edited November 2013


    Then why not throw a "Thank you, God!" party instead of a party for yourself if you're saying God is responsible for you getting up every day.

    WTF is wrong with the quote boxes today?! 

    *****************************************************
    He and my mother get shout outs. And I'm very grateful to them both for giving me life. But my birthday is a celebration of me. Yep I'm the center of attention. Yes I want the congratulations, and the well wishes, and all the hugs and kisses (and cake, dont forget about the cake) that I can get. Yes I want all of the people in MY world to acknowledge me 1 day out of the entire year by singing Stevie Wonders version of "happy birthday" to me.

    And I feel the same exact way about my "wedding day". I'm getting married and im having a party. I don't need people to be there. And I most certainly don't need a party afterwards. But I want people there. And I want the party afterwards!! I invite you as a guest to come share in my happiness of getting married. I invite guest so that they share in my day and that that entails. Yes my "wedding day" is about me...well about us (that's what I mean when I say me). Its about my dress, and my hair and makeup. Its about how good he looks in his suit. And yes its all about my kick ass reception that we have.

    Now here's the thing. You can feel that. And that can be your reason for wanting a "wedding day", but you DO NOT have to be rude about it. You can have a ME ME ME moment(s), but not be insulting to those around you. There is a way to be polite about. For example I want to out shine all my BM's....period. I want all eyes on me when I come down that aisle. Am I going to make them ugly in order for me to shine? Nope, they're going to be fly just like me but muted down. Their dresses look just like mine in a short version. Their jewlery might be smaller then mine. Now that's my me moment, but I'm not taking anything away from my girls by having it. My reception is not a fucking gift to my guest!!! Are you serious?? That's like me buying you a gift because I graduated from college...NOPE!!! My reception is a freaking awesome party with good food, good music, and great cake!! Its sole purpose is to be a celebration for us!!! Now am I expecting gifts...no. Am I expecting money...no. Your well wishes, and prayers that my marriage last and stays strong is enough for me. I will be a kind host and walk around shaking hands, giving out kisses, thanking people for coming out to celebrate with me. But I'm not going to break my back or bank account trying to provide guest with things I can't afford for example an open bar. We will have liquor because I want liquor for me. If you want liquor for you buy it. On a personal note thats not my situation. I am having an open bar, but I aint mad when a couple cant have 1. I would rather be a guest at wedding and pay for my drinks, but dance with the couple all night long, then to get free liquor and sit looking stupid with nothing to do, and not even get a hello from the couple. Free liquor does not out weigh fun to me....

    Now EVERYTHING that I've just described makes me a rude bride according to these boards. But nothing that I described makes me a "traditional" bride. I have read enough etiquette books and been on these boards long enough to understand that you guys use etiquette rules for traditional weddings. And with TRADITIONAL weddings the Bride and Groom are NOT the host of anything, which is why they don't do anything. People that read these boards need to know that. And I think they need to understand what that means.

    Anyhoo I hope everybody has a great day...
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  • RebeccaB88RebeccaB88 member
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    mobkaz said:

    ***************************************************** He and my mother get shout outs. And I'm very grateful to them both for giving me life. But my birthday is a celebration of me. Yep I'm the center of attention. Yes I want the congratulations, and the well wishes, and all the hugs and kisses (and cake, dont forget about the cake) that I can get. Yes I want all of the people in MY world to acknowledge me 1 day out of the entire year by singing Stevie Wonders version of "happy birthday" to me. And I feel the same exact way about my "wedding day". I'm getting married and im having a party. I don't need people to be there. And I most certainly don't need a party afterwards. But I want people there. And I want the party afterwards!! I invite you as a guest to come share in my happiness of getting married. I invite guest so that they share in my day and that that entails. Yes my "wedding day" is about me...well about us (that's what I mean when I say me). Its about my dress, and my hair and makeup. Its about how good he looks in his suit. And yes its all about my kick ass reception that we have. Now here's the thing. You can feel that. And that can be your reason for wanting a "wedding day", but you DO NOT have to be rude about it. You can have a ME ME ME moment(s), but not be insulting to those around you. There is a way to be polite about. For example I want to out shine all my BM's....period. I want all eyes on me when I come down that aisle. Am I going to make them ugly in order for me to shine? Nope, they're going to be fly just like me but muted down. Their dresses look just like mine in a short version. Their jewlery might be smaller then mine. Now that's my me moment, but I'm not taking anything away from my girls by having it. My reception is not a fucking gift to my guest!!! Are you serious?? That's like me buying you a gift because I graduated from college...NOPE!!! My reception is a freaking awesome party with good food, good music, and great cake!! Its sole purpose is to be a celebration for us!!! Now am I expecting gifts...no. Am I expecting money...no. Your well wishes, and prayers that my marriage last and stays strong is enough for me. I will be a kind host and walk around shaking hands, giving out kisses, thanking people for coming out to celebrate with me. But I'm not going to break my back or bank account trying to provide guest with things I can't afford for example an open bar. We will have liquor because I want liquor for me. If you want liquor for you buy it. On a personal note thats not my situation. I am having an open bar, but I aint mad when a couple cant have 1. I would rather be a guest at wedding and pay for my drinks, but dance with the couple all night long, then to get free liquor and sit looking stupid with nothing to do, and not even get a hello from the couple. Free liquor does not out weigh fun to me.... Now EVERYTHING that I've just described makes me a rude bride according to these boards. But nothing that I described makes me a "traditional" bride. I have read enough etiquette books and been on these boards long enough to understand that you guys use etiquette rules for traditional weddings. And with TRADITIONAL weddings the Bride and Groom are NOT the host of anything, which is why they don't do anything. People that read these boards need to know that. And I think they need to understand what that means. Anyhoo I hope everybody has a great day...


    image

    And you actually believe that all this is something to be proud of...
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  • MobKazMobKaz member
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    cidefi said:

    Then why not throw a "Thank you, God!" party instead of a party for yourself if you're saying God is responsible for you getting up every day.
    WTF is wrong with the quote boxes today?!  ***************************************************** He and my mother get shout outs. And I'm very grateful to them both for giving me life. But my birthday is a celebration of me. Yep I'm the     center of attention. Yes I want the congratulations, and the well wishes, and all the hugs and kisses (and cake, dont forget about the cake) that I can get. Yes I want all of the people in MY world to acknowledge me 1 day out of the entire year by singing Stevie Wonders version of "happy birthday" to me. And I feel the same exact way about my "wedding day". I'm getting married and im having a party. I don't need people to be there. And I most certainly don't need a party afterwards. But I want people there. And I want the party afterwards!! I invite you as a guest to come share in my happiness of getting married. I invite guest so that they share in my day and that that entails. Yes my "wedding day" is about me...well about us (that's what I mean when I say me). Its about my dress, and my hair and makeup. Its about how good he looks in his suit. And yes its all about my kick ass reception that we have. Now here's the thing. You can feel that. And that can be your reason for wanting a "wedding day", but you DO NOT have to be rude about it. You can have a ME ME ME moment(s), but not be insulting to those around you. There is a way to be polite about. For example I want to out shine all my BM's....period. I want all eyes on me when I come down that aisle. Am I going to make them ugly in order for me to shine? Nope, they're going to be fly just like me but muted down. Their dresses look just like mine in a short version. Their jewlery might be smaller then mine. Now that's my me moment, but I'm not taking anything away from my girls by having it. My reception is not a fucking gift to my guest!!! Are you serious?? That's like me buying you a gift because I graduated from college...NOPE!!! My reception is a freaking awesome party with good food, good music, and great cake!! Its sole purpose is to be a celebration for us!!! Now am I expecting gifts...no. Am I expecting money...no. Your well wishes, and prayers that my marriage last and stays strong is enough for me. I will be a kind host and walk around shaking hands, giving out kisses, thanking people for coming out to celebrate with me. But I'm not going to break my back or bank account trying to provide guest with things I can't afford for example an open bar. We will have liquor because I want liquor for me. If you want liquor for you buy it. On a personal note thats not my situation. I am having an open bar, but I aint mad when a couple cant have 1. I would rather be a guest at wedding and pay for my drinks, but dance with the couple all night long, then to get free liquor and sit looking stupid with nothing to do, and not even get a hello from the couple. Free liquor does not out weigh fun to me....     Now EVERYTHING that I've just described makes me a rude bride according to these boards. But nothing that I described makes me a "traditional" bride. I have read enough etiquette books and been on these boards long enough to understand that you guys use etiquette rules for traditional weddings. And with TRADITIONAL weddings the Bride and Groom are NOT the host of anything, which is why they don't do anything. People that read these boards need to know that. And I think they need to understand what that means. Anyhoo I hope everybody has a great day...



    To the small but bolded:  I'm quite sure none of those multiple statements are found anywhere near the definition of humble.  I do believe you have humble confused with self indulgent.  To the second, and larger bolded..........this is the only truth spoken in this entire tirade, and I appreciate the disclaimer so those who read it will know to run away as fast as possible.
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  • huskypuppy14huskypuppy14 member
    First Anniversary First Comment 5 Love Its First Answer
    cidefi said:

    Then why not throw a "Thank you, God!" party instead of a party for yourself if you're saying God is responsible for you getting up every day.
    WTF is wrong with the quote boxes today?!  ***************************************************** He and my mother get shout outs. And I'm very grateful to them both for giving me life. But my birthday is a celebration of me. Yep I'm the center of attention. Yes I want the congratulations, and the well wishes, and all the hugs and kisses (and cake, dont forget about the cake) that I can get. Yes I want all of the people in MY world to acknowledge me 1 day out of the entire year by singing Stevie Wonders version of "happy birthday" to me. And I feel the same exact way about my "wedding day".     I'm getting married and im having a party. I don't need people to be there. And I most certainly don't need a party afterwards. But I want people there. And I want the party afterwards!! I invite you as a guest to come share in my happiness of getting married. I invite guest so that they share in my day and that that entails. Yes my "wedding day" is about me...well about us (that's what I mean when I say me). Its about my dress, and my hair and makeup. Its about how good he looks in his suit. And yes its all about my kick ass reception that we have. Now here's the thing. You can feel that. And that can be your reason for wanting a "wedding day", but you DO NOT have to be rude about it. You can have a ME ME ME moment(s), but not be insulting to those around you. There is a way to be polite about. For example I want to out shine all my BM's....period. I want all eyes on me when I come down that aisle. Am I going to make them ugly in order for me to shine? Nope, they're going to be fly just like me but muted down. Their dresses look just like mine in a short version. Their jewlery might be smaller then mine. Now that's my me moment, but I'm not taking anything away from my girls by having it. My reception is not a fucking gift to my guest!!! Are you serious?? That's like me buying you a gift because I graduated from college...NOPE!!! My reception is a freaking awesome party with good food, good music, and great cake!! Its sole purpose is to be a celebration for us!!! Now am I expecting gifts...no. Am I expecting money...no. Your well wishes, and prayers that my marriage last and stays strong is enough for me. I will be a kind host and walk around shaking hands, giving out kisses, thanking people for coming out to celebrate with me. But I'm not going to break my back or bank account trying to provide guest with things I can't afford for example an open bar. We will have liquor because I want liquor for me. If you want liquor for you buy it. On a personal note thats not my situation. I am having an open bar, but I aint mad when a couple cant have 1. I would rather be a guest at wedding and pay for my drinks, but dance with the couple all night long, then to get free liquor and sit looking stupid with nothing to do, and not even get a hello from the couple. Free liquor does not out weigh fun to me.... Now EVERYTHING that I've just described makes me a rude bride according to these boards. But nothing that I described makes me a "traditional" bride. I have read enough etiquette books and been on these boards long enough to understand that you guys use etiquette rules for traditional weddings. And with TRADITIONAL weddings the Bride and Groom are NOT the host of anything, which is why they don't do anything. People that read these boards need to know that. And I think they need to understand what that means. Anyhoo I hope everybody has a great day...


    To the 1st bolded: You should elope if you don't care if you have guests or not.  Of course you don't need a party, but it sounds like you want a party. Also, if you invite people to your ceremony (which is the part that's supposed to be about you and your husband/wife), you have to provide some sort of reception, big or small.  

    The reception is the thank you for coming to your ceremony (second bolded).  It was hard for me to understand this at first too, but it really makes sense. A lot of people think the reception is about the bride and groom, but it is the thank you for your guests. That's why you are supposed to take your guests into consideration, and that's also why favors are not necessary. I think most guests are still there to celebrate your marriage with you, but when you have the attitude of me me me, you are being selfish. My FI and I are having the wedding we want, while still taking our guests into consideration. You can have both, as long as your wants don't take away from your guests. 

    I don't know what happened to the formatting.
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  • cideficidefi member
    5 Love Its First Comment Name Dropper First Anniversary
    I didn't ask for any opinions and I really don't care what you all think 1 way or the other.
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  • mrs4everhartmrs4everhart member
    First Comment First Anniversary 5 Love Its First Answer
    I think I have a really simple solution to all of the questions of whether one should or shouldn't throw a party for oneself (regardless of the occasion). What can you live with as a person? If you care deeply about etiquette beyond all else - research the rules and follow them, like 'em or not, no matter what. If that's not your main concern look to yourself and what you're ultimately comfortable with. If you're hurting no one, great. If people are going to trash talk you behind your back, can you live with that? No matter what, at the end of the day your event (good or bad) will be remembered most importantly and vividly by you. If it is one that you enjoyed and you have positive memories of and associations with then chances are good it was a good move for you. You may offend some people, you may upset some folks, there's lots and lots of variables. But if you wake up every day feeling a-ok, so be it. I know lots of people who have had cash bars at their weddings for example. Did they break with etiquette? Yes. Were some people put off and found the behavior rude? Absolutely, without a doubt. Did the newly married couple enjoy their day all the same and look back on it fondly? Yup! That's the only wedding they'll get (fingers crossed) so who the hell cares if Aunt Edna was offended if the couple has nothing but wonderful feelings and memories of their wedding? Aunt Edna will go to lots more weddings she can fret about (and engagement parties, birthday parties, etc.) Bottom line - if you want to celebrate your birthday, engagement, graduation, promotion at work, new hair color, new car, or the fact that it's Sunday again knock yourself silly as long as you can foresee and handle any fallout. I like parties. I know lots of other people who like parties. Attention whore? Maybe. Narcissist? Perhaps. Social? Extremely. So is the fear that someone may talk shit behind my back going to stop me from throwing a birthday party for myself if I'm so inclined? Lord no! Party on, Wayne. Party on, Garth. 
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  • crunchymamaof2 crunchymamaof2 member
    First Anniversary First Comment 5 Love Its Name Dropper

    I don't think being humble and God loving goes with the "me me me!!!!" attitude. I bet Jesus didn't throw his own birthday party.

    Look, there's nothing wrong with enjoying your own birthday. There's nothing wrong with wanting people to celebrate and be excited with you. But there is plenty wrong with expecting it or planning your own party in order to get such attention.

    After 6 years and 2 boys, finally tying the knot on October 27th, 2013!

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  • Jen4948Jen4948 member
    First Anniversary First Answer First Comment 5 Love Its
    edited November 2013
    cidefi said:
    I didn't ask for any opinions and I really don't care what you all think 1 way or the other.
    Post deleted.  This does not merit a response.
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  • KeptInStitchesKeptInStitches member
    First Anniversary First Comment First Answer 5 Love Its
    acove2006 said:

    I don't think being humble and God loving goes with the "me me me!!!!" attitude. I bet Jesus didn't throw his own birthday party.

    Look, there's nothing wrong with enjoying your own birthday. There's nothing wrong with wanting people to celebrate and be excited with you. But there is plenty wrong with expecting it or planning your own party in order to get such attention.

    This. I love my birthday (unashamedly). It's my favorite "holiday" of the year. But I sure as hell do not expect anyone else to enjoy my birthday nearly as much as I do - the only "party" I plan is with my BF, and it pretty much boils down to I get to pick where we eat out.
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  • Maggie0829Maggie0829 member
    First Anniversary First Answer First Comment 5 Love Its
    I didn't ask for any opinions and I really don't care what you all think 1 way or the other.
    Would it really have been that hard or taken that much more time to actually spell out the word 'one' instead of using the number? I mean, come on.

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  • AddieCakeAddieCake member
    First Anniversary First Answer First Comment 5 Love Its
    cidefi said:
    I didn't ask for any opinions and I really don't care what you all think 1 way or the other.
    Not asking for them does not mean they won't be given. Or do you not understand how public forums work?


    What did you think would happen if you walked up to a group of internet strangers and told them to get shoehorned by their lady doc?~StageManager14
    image
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  • cowgirl8238cowgirl8238 member
    First Anniversary First Comment 5 Love Its First Answer
    ClimbingBrideNY said:
    You know, I was going to type a whole response, but I decided against it. If someone is really this much of an AW and is really that self absorbed, nothing anyone says is going to make a difference. 
    This is exactly my thought too!
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  • MobKazMobKaz member
    First Anniversary First Comment First Answer 5 Love Its
    cowgirl8238 said:
    ClimbingBrideNY said:
    You know, I was going to type a whole response, but I decided against it. If someone is really this much of an AW and is really that self absorbed, nothing anyone says is going to make a difference. 
    This is exactly my thought too!
    I also agree.  In addition, responding to this type of inane argument/logic sends out a special "craydar" to the other BSC partners in crime!

    image
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  • PrettyGirlLostPrettyGirlLost member
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    Craydar, hahaha! I love it!

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


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  • cideficidefi member
    5 Love Its First Comment Name Dropper First Anniversary
    cowgirl8238 said:


    ClimbingBrideNY said:

    You know, I was going to type a whole response, but I decided against it. If someone is really this much of an AW and is really that self absorbed, nothing anyone says is going to make a difference. 

    This is exactly my thought too!

    ******************************************************
    Right which is why I said yaw opinions don't matter to me.
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  • abeltran731abeltran731 member
    First Comment
    I was starting to wonder the same thing
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  • LDubHawksFanLDubHawksFan member
    First Anniversary First Answer 5 Love Its Name Dropper
    Wtf happened with this thread?! I leave for a week to be productive and come back to read this mess. Ooy

    image
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  • ViczaesarViczaesar member
    First Anniversary First Comment First Answer 5 Love Its
    cidefi said:
    ClimbingBrideNY said:
    You know, I was going to type a whole response, but I decided against it. If someone is really this much of an AW and is really that self absorbed, nothing anyone says is going to make a difference. 
    This is exactly my thought too!
    ****************************************************** Right which is why I said yaw opinions don't matter to me.
    What's a yaw opinion?



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  • AylaInLoveAylaInLove member
    5 Love Its First Comment
    I think that's dumb.  If it's a party we throw and happen to announce our engagement, isn't that an engagement party?  

    We're talking semantics here.  

       If there are people in Southern California who can't make it to a Northern California wedding, wouldn't an engagement party be the perfect place to celebrate as well as have families meet?  And just because people are too busy to plan it for you, does that really mean you have to go without?  Really? Because last i checked you (should) only get married once.

    We want to meet all the friends and family members who have known and loved our s.o. their whole lives.  It's about the people, not the gifts or the location.  I'm really failing to see how it's rude or improper.  But, if it's "wedding etiquette" so be it.  

    But like using the right fork, it's one of those things that has a bunch of tradition and snobbery tied into it when it just makes sense to use a fork to eat.  Am I missing something?

      All that being said I probably wont have one if it's not thrown for us.  But because I don't have the time to plan it, not because I think it's "rude".  I feel like that word gets thrown around a lot.  If anything, the amount of judgement on this site is more "rude" than wanting to spend time with friends and family.
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  • NYCBruinNYCBruin member
    First Anniversary First Answer First Comment 5 Love Its
    AylaInLove said:
    I think that's dumb.  If it's a party we throw and happen to announce our engagement, isn't that an engagement party?  

    We're talking semantics here.  

       If there are people in Southern California who can't make it to a Northern California wedding, wouldn't an engagement party be the perfect place to celebrate as well as have families meet?  And just because people are too busy to plan it for you, does that really mean you have to go without?  Really? Because last i checked you (should) only get married once.

    We want to meet all the friends and family members who have known and loved our s.o. their whole lives.  It's about the people, not the gifts or the location.  I'm really failing to see how it's rude or improper.  But, if it's "wedding etiquette" so be it.  

    But like using the right fork, it's one of those things that has a bunch of tradition and snobbery tied into it when it just makes sense to use a fork to eat.  Am I missing something?

      All that being said I probably wont have one if it's not thrown for us.  But because I don't have the time to plan it, not because I think it's "rude".  I feel like that word gets thrown around a lot.  If anything, the amount of judgement on this site is more "rude" than wanting to spend time with friends and family.
    FFS if you just want to spend time with people then organize a get together.  But making a party about you/your engagement/announcing your engagement makes it a party in your own honor.  And throwing a party to celebrate yourself is rude, attention whorish and rather childish.  I don't see what's difficult to comprehend about that.  

    Everyone has people who won't be able to attend their wedding, that's life.  It doesn't make it ok for you to throw yourself another party in your honor so you can be celebrated by every person on your guest list.

    Bottom line: 
    Get togethers/parties for no reason = awesome and fun!
    Parties thrown to honor yourself = childish and rude

    Don't worry guys, I have the Wedding Police AND the Whambulance on speed dial!
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  • AylaInLoveAylaInLove member
    5 Love Its First Comment
     I'm new here and thought this would be a good place to get some ideas, support and camaraderie.  Nope.
      Where are you getting that it's "In our honor"?  We throw a "Just Because" party or get together and announce our engagement.  How would we not reference that as an "Engagement Party"?  We don't live in the area, everyone would know why were we throwing it, why not just call it what it is?  Once again, semantics.

    Why are you being so aggressive and mean?  I know this is the internet, but this is a site about weddings and a forum on etiquette. I'm asking questions, stating my mentality behind them and you're implying some pretty mean and derogatory things.  Not really why I came on here.

    Honestly, I'm noticing a lot of people on here get off more on judging others and being more condescending than helpful.  If you think you're helping, you're not.  Maybe leave the advice for someone who has more patience.  

      Yeah, call the whambulance, and when they get here you can explain from your high horse that there's no need for them because people like you chased out the questionable whiners.  Good for you.  You're stronger, smarter and better than me.  I really don't like or need this drama and I would leave all together, but still need the info, so back to lurking.  Have a nice day.
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  • ootmother2ootmother2 member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its First Answer Name Dropper
    longest and freaking weirdest Knot post ever
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